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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
Lilac affirmative action temple
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
  05/29/25
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station
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nyuug
  07/07/26
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nyuug
  07/08/26
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nyuug
  07/09/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
Sick hairraiser mad cow disease location
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
Talking Histrionic Kitchen
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
Sick hairraiser mad cow disease location
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
Talking Histrionic Kitchen
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
Sick hairraiser mad cow disease location
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
Provocative home organic girlfriend
  07/01/25
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crimson newt spot
  07/13/25
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Beady-eyed Outnumbered Center
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
Crystalline meetinghouse
  05/29/25
cq
avocado electric furnace rehab
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
mind-boggling sanctuary
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
Provocative home organic girlfriend
  07/02/25
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concupiscible faggot firefighter
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
Puce chest-beating library
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
glassy deranged crotch
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
Zombie-like heaven
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
Translucent Titillating Trump Supporter
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
arousing magical doctorate chapel
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
Translucent Titillating Trump Supporter
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
Zombie-like heaven
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
Excitant bearded pisswyrm
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
Excitant bearded pisswyrm
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: Lilac affirmative action temple

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49515504)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49518561)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49529071)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49532458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49545634)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49545665)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49562700)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49567730)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49584404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838453)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49890852)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49893306)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49905466)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: kink-friendly out-of-control digit ratio station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 7th, 2026 11:56 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49985467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2026 7:24 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49987106)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 9th, 2026 10:50 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49989901)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: Sick hairraiser mad cow disease location

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: Talking Histrionic Kitchen

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: Sick hairraiser mad cow disease location

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: Talking Histrionic Kitchen

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48969954)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: Sick hairraiser mad cow disease location

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48971066)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: Provocative home organic girlfriend

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49065184)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: crimson newt spot



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49098592)



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Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: Beady-eyed Outnumbered Center



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49098608)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: Crystalline meetinghouse

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48970037)



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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: avocado electric furnace rehab

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48970041)



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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: mind-boggling sanctuary

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48985033)



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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: Provocative home organic girlfriend

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49065206)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: concupiscible faggot firefighter



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: Puce chest-beating library

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: glassy deranged crotch

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: Zombie-like heaven

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: Translucent Titillating Trump Supporter

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: arousing magical doctorate chapel

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: Translucent Titillating Trump Supporter

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: Zombie-like heaven

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Excitant bearded pisswyrm

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Excitant bearded pisswyrm

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2)#49838410)