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'They think I'm a loser': how firms wind-up in-house lawyers
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Date: July 29th, 2025 10:32 AM Author: richard clock 'They think I'm a loser': how firms wind-up in-house lawyers By James Dennison 11 July 2025 Lawyer "It's not that I'm better than you - it's just you're not as good as me."
In The RollOnFriday In-House Lawyer Survey 2025, perhaps unsurprisingly, brash lawyers are getting some stick.
One in-house lawyer in banking singled out a City firm: “Every time I deal with their lawyers, I can tell they think I’m a loser for being in-house and they do little to mask their generalised contempt. I wouldn’t mind if they were actually competent and didn’t make errors that I have to waste my time correcting.” They concluded that “basic social skills and some professional pride are clearly not high on the criteria list”.
Another client criticised a large firm for “always trying to be smart arses but often failing”, and making unwarranted “critical remarks about other firms” to mask their "own insecurities".
One in-house lawyer suggested that firms should “move away from the addiction to hiring and promoting posh, privileged grads with an overdeveloped sense of their own importance and worth.”
Another client opined that "arrogant lawyers will get their comeuppance," when "AI takes over and means the lawyers are forced to form proper relationships with their clients to justify their fees, while the robots do the work".
Some lawyers were chastised for failing to build rapport.
"Our core partner retired and it's been embarrassing watching them suck up," said one GC in energy about a transatlantic firm. "We won't use them again however because in the US they kissed the ring”.
Another US firm also came in for criticism, for “seeming to have bigger fish to fry and showing no interest in maintaining a proactive client relationship.”
While a GC noted that one Magic Circle firm may be “technically fine” but had made “no real effort to develop a relationship.”
Conversely, clients valued firms that had affable lawyers. A GC in financial services praised HFW for being “actually pleasant to deal with” as well as providing “excellent non-contentious regulatory advice”.
“A solid relationship benefits everyone,” said an in-house lawyer in insurance. “It means we can pick up the phone to the lawyers when the sh*t hits the fan and something had to be done urgently. It also means our lawyers don’t have to worry about having tricky conversations with us, when sticky situations arise”.
While an in-house lawyer commended one relationship partner for “contacting me about developments before I need to ask her about them – it’s like she’s got this sixth sense – it’s really spooky but genuinely impressive.”
Some highlighted trust as a key point in strengthening the relationship, particularly when it has been built over time. A GC in travel said that Kennedys have “have a reliable and well-established team that we've worked with for years. I trust their advice implicitly.”
“Ideally we should be thinking less about ‘us’ and ‘them’, and working as a team,” said one in-house counsel. “For this to happen, trust and respect are vital.”
Clients advised firms to make an effort when it came to client entertainment.
“In a world of performative, hand-wringing International Women’s Day events, it was really refreshing to be invited to an IWD event hosted by one of the Addleshaw Goddard teams which was more low-key - an exhibition followed by cocktails for a small group of clients,” said a GC in energy. “It made clients feel valued and really helped with building relationships (and a fun evening to boot).”
An in-house lawyer in the construction sector commented: “I was taken to the darts, which was an experience!” But did not divulge whether it was a good one.
While the power of good freebies were noted by one client who said that a firm “still recycles shit advice, safe in the knowledge that as long as they keep inviting the UK GC to the cricket they’re on safe ground.”
One in-house lawyer highlighted a lunch fail: “A retiring partner was handing the relationship with us over to a new partner, during which the new partner failed to realise it was me who made the decisions on whether to instruct them or not. They spent most of the lunch ignoring me as presumably they thought I was too young/unimportant to focus on.” The client concluded that the partner “would have been better off not coming down for lunch at all!”
Also demonstrating the pitfalls of schmoozing, a GC in technology said: “Dinners out are great fun, until the Partner you're sat with tries to prove how cool and hip they are by listing bands they like. I don't care if you know who Jamie xx is, mate”.
But perhaps the worst attempt to network, goes to the firm that “gave out sandwiches at a client lunch that were so bad they poisoned one of our trainees.”
A GC in financial services commented that the firms they dealt with this year ”did a good job, with minimal fuss, and none of them offended me with substandard sandwiches, badly-judged jokes or drug-crazed romps,” adding wistfully: “I miss the nineties.”
https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/they-think-im-loser-how-firms-wind-house-lawyers |
Date: July 29th, 2025 10:38 AM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) ime they tend to suck up. sure they're areogant and insecure but thats nothing new and part of that reason many inhousemos jumped ship anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49139949) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 10:48 AM Author: richard clock cr ive never gotten this feeling as an in housemo, and when i was in biglaw, you may think the odd in house guy is a dumbmo but mostly youre envious of their position (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49139995) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:10 AM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) i think a lot of them probably look down on me privately as i did when i was still drinking the kool-aid and looked down on "burnouts." but they certainly don't show it. the article is kinda bizarre as idk why a biglol firm would act this wwy towards clients. although the article talks about sucking up too and the title seems intentionally provactive to trigger burnouts like us to poast about as we attend zoom conferences with neurotic biglol supplicants. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140070) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:16 AM Author: Crimson Permanent Assurance the type of people who would let resentment over this build to the point of giving an interview about it are bound to be grating losers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140084) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:21 AM Author: dont run libs the crystal wardens see you keep in mind that those quoted all appear to be brits different mentality over there, might well be something to the notion that inhousemos are less than when the firm requirements aren’t as demanding, as opposed to the US where it’s just as likely an indicator that you’re sane and don’t want 70 hours per week of THE LAW |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:01 AM Author: Candy Ride Lol
A lot of in house lawyers are very good at what they do. Their work might not be classified as practicing law though. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:03 AM Author: richard clock a lot of my work consists of telling business folks "hey, have you considered not doing something retarded" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140057) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:47 AM Author: Fucking Fuckface This remains true at the GC level (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140163) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:13 AM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) tbf a lot of biglol isn't really "legal prwctice." many such cases of transactional guys getting into trouble because of their license lapses or they're not barred in a jx and no one notices for years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140074) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:34 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,.,.,:::,...,:,...:..:.,:.::,. I fully agree with this. I've been on many projects where people are super happy with my work and then say "hey, shouldn't we run this by Legal?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140786) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:07 AM Author: .,.,;,.,.,;,;., It totally depends on the company and you can tell this from day one. If they're recruiting senior associates from Cravath / former DOJ-SEC / magic circle and paying market competitive compensation and regard the legal department as an important contributor to the business, you'll have one culture. If they're pulling "biglaw" V100 burnouts who got the nobreakfast message year 4 (or couldn't hack the hard work by then), forcing them to take 50% paycuts, and shoving them into a cubicles (and consider the legal function to be a forced pain in the ass and a drag on the business), you'll have another culture. In-house runs this entire gamut. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140065) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:15 AM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) if anyone is wonder about the arrogant + insecure attitude i referenced in my poast this is a good example (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140080) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:16 AM Author: .,.,;,.,.,;,;., ?
Not sure where you're getting arrogant or insecure vibes here but please expound .... |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:26 AM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) "If they're pulling "biglaw" V100 burnouts who got the nobreakfast message year 4 (or couldn't hack the hard work by then), forcing them to take 50% paycuts, and shoving them into a cubicles (and consider the legal function to be a forced pain in the ass and a drag on the business)"
i can break it down if you wish. this reeks of arrogance + insecurity. the only reason i hesitate to call it obvious flame is because ive seen too many kool-aid drunk biglolyers say it unironically. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:27 AM Author: Crimson Permanent Assurance i would agree that there’s at least one big flashing “insecurity” tell happening in this subthread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140116) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:43 AM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) ah yeah the "no u!" counter. devastating.
i don't have anything against biglolyers. many of my best friends are biglol partners now. ones that wound up in a practice group and culture that doesnt grind them 70 hours a week are right to stay.
but calling people who left "burnouts" can only be interpreted as arrogant and insecure. your ego has to really be wrapped up in your tolerance and pride in checking commas to do this. biglaw isn't hard, it's tedious. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:44 AM Author: Crimson Permanent Assurance you really might want to consider taking a step back from xo, man. you are taking all of this shit way too seriously. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140154) |
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Date: July 30th, 2025 3:50 AM Author: rape bunny dude is easily the most insane poaster on here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49142122) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:34 AM Author: .,.,;,.,.,;,;., I think you're reading way too much into that portion of the poast, which isn't putting people down but just reflecting the reality of the market. Having dealt with many different in-house departments, you get a wide array of lawyer quality (and in-house legal culture). It's a function of the biglaw model that a certain % of low performers get pushed out and certain cos. are known for absorbing them and then treating them like shit, which creates a cyclically shitty culture and demoralized and skill-eroding attorneys, which isn't great to deal with. On the other end of the spectrum you'll have some cos. that treat their in-house department with great pride and regard it almost like a miniaturized elite law firm and recruit and pay accordingly. And there are all different variations between too, of course this is a simplification. No one should be an asshole to another person, full stop, it's wrong (and bad for business) but it's hard to tell in advance whether the lawyers being described in this article are just assholes or are dealing with some of the truly SPS in-house departments that are out there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140134) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 12:03 PM Author: t3h P0aStEr oF d00m!!!!!!!! (gunneratttt) alright you've convinced me you're probably a true believer so let me break it down
"important contributor the the business": biggest red flag which you've repeated here. ljl at legal being considered an important part of the business. legal is a cost center. that's why so few GCs become CEOs and when they do its when the company is embroiled in some legal dispute. maybe there are some companies focused on litigation where this isn't the case, but in the context of banking in this article: lmfao. the business side wants the lawyers as far away from them as possible. this "my job has an important business function" is the type of cope we feed to credulous lawyers to keep them billing.
v100 biglaw in quotes: this is why i think it might be flame as most v10 biglawywrs will at least pretend not to lord their status over lower ranked ones. but not always. either way, this completely unnecessary dig adds but signaling that you consider lower ranked associates beneath you; per se arrogance and insecurity.
the other inflammatory language like burnout, shoved, forced, etc. doesn't merit specific attention other than to point out the entire poast is sprinkled with rhetoric that indicates feelings of superiority. a secure person would not feel the need to push down sua sponte.
since i took the effort to respond, can you let me know if i fell for flame? and if not what rough vault and year you are? i only ask because im always curious how long people can remain true believers. all my senior biglol bros admit it's rancid flame. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 12:38 PM Author: .,.,;,.,.,;,;., OK (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140260) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:16 AM Author: richard clock (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140082) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:16 AM Author: Party Time Moon Walks Cheeky! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140085) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:19 AM Author: grievance officer Most in house lawyers are very poor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140094) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:20 AM Author: mariachi luis (🧐) I'm not a lawyer and can't read this with all the britspeak. Is it basically saying biglawyers are princessy faggots or something? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140095) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:21 AM Author: Party Time Moon Walks Is this tosser havin a laff? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140097) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:22 AM Author: mariachi luis (🧐) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140105) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:28 AM Author: richard clock (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140117) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:30 AM Author: disco fries (his own flesh as well as all space was still a cage) These are British people and things are done slightly differently over there, especially in terms of social relationships. What stood out to me is how Brits will not speak up about something that is bothering them. Take the guy who went to lunch with his GC and was a little put off because the junior partner was trying to build a relationship with the GC instead of him (who does all of the instructing). Do you think this lawyer ever spoke up and said, "It's actually my function to instruct law firms" during this lunch? Of course not. They say nothing, quietly stew, and then mouth off with weird anecdotes to any reporter that calls looking for an angle to print. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:32 AM Author: Crimson Permanent Assurance what a strange and alien culture where someone would let all their professional and personal frustrations fester and then vent about it quasi-anonymously. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140123) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:34 AM Author: richard clock (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140133) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:42 AM Author: dont run libs the crystal wardens see you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140146) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:18 PM Author: Ass Sunstein (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140741) |
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Date: July 30th, 2025 10:26 AM Author: Trust If Aryan this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49142500) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:32 AM Author: cannon I don't care if you know who Jamie xx is, mate tp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140122) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 12:05 PM Author: mariachi luis (🧐) lmao didn't even catch that, cool 2010 reference bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140195) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 AM Author: Fucking Fuckface I don't doubt this is true in some cases. Someone told me about a similar thing at the hands of a Skadden partner.
But lmao on taking any shit from firm lawyers. I would chew them out (first time)and fire their fucking asses if they continued disrespecting anyone on my team. Who puts up with any shit from outrageously priced billable hour monkeys? I can just go to the next zoo and give their apes a try, probably cheaper |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 2:03 PM Author: Smoker I’m at a portfolio company and sometimes you’re forced to use outside counsel preferred by sponsors especially on certain matters. There’s a particular firm I can’t stand working with. Half the time they don’t respond. When they do respond they’re often unhelpful. You’d think they’d care about trying to retain work after next exit but they act like they don’t care at all. We spent like over 5 mill with them last year.
On the other end of the spectrum, there’s another firm that’s incredible to work with, always very thoughtful and practical advice, treat every email like it’s their top priority. Not sure how toxic cultures develop at some of these places. It must be really bad when it gets to the point of not caring about negative feedback from clients. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 2:32 PM Author: Fucking Fuckface Why not tell them based on their current performance you will be firing their ass as soon as you get the authority to do it unless they change their ways on X, Y, and Z. And ride the shit out of them if they're slacking.
I'm at a portco too, but I would tell the fund GC this is shit and I need some help lighting a fire under their ass. Mine would be on board with that. Yours might be too.
EDIT: you'll be surprised how much speaking up solves relative to quietly seething. If you level with the firm like I said above, tell them in the interim you will be looking for every smaller matter you can carve out of any work that would otherwise go their way. I'll be surprised if they totally ignore you |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 6:32 PM Author: Ass Sunstein Wow, you sound like a real straight shooter! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141235) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:22 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,.,.,:::,...,:,...:..:.,:.::,. "I’m at a portfolio company and sometimes you’re forced to use outside counsel preferred by sponsors especially on certain matters"
Provide feedback to in-house counsel at the sponsor. It'll get back to the firm very quickly. You will see their behavior improve overnight. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:21 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,.,.,:::,...,:,...:..:.,:.::,. "I would chew them out (first time)and fire their fucking asses if they continued disrespecting anyone on my team."
This is the key point. We can fire them and 100 firms will show up begging for our business. If someone so much as farts and tries to blame one of our lawyers we can tell whoever owns the relationship to never staff them on another matter for our company. |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 4:55 PM Author: Fucking Fuckface Always great to see someone else who stands up for their team (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141020) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 5:09 PM Author: .,.,...,..,.,.,:,,:,.,.,:::,...,:,...:..:.,:.::,. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141056) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:31 PM Author: fulano British in house have such giant crisps on their shoulders (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140781) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:36 PM Author: grievance officer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140791) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:46 PM Author: richard clock (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140826) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 3:51 PM Author: Crimson Permanent Assurance (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140850) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 4:19 PM Author: dont run libs the crystal wardens see you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49140938) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 5:06 PM Author: mariachi luis (🧐) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141046) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 5:08 PM Author: Judas Jones (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141052) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 5:09 PM Author: irrelevant shitscientist (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141054) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 6:11 PM Author: Candy Ride Fuck I laughed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141194) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 6:31 PM Author: Ass Sunstein You having a laugh, mate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141233) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 8:26 PM Author: David Poaster Wallace C'mon. Ave a go. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141572) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 7:43 PM Author: cannon (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5755930&forum_id=2).#49141458) |