The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
Just got on TRT, feels like a cheat code for IRL
Poast new message in this thread
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:42 AM Author: smoky associate bbw I’ll probably die sooner but in the meantime holy shit this stuff is amazing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196763) |
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:43 AM Author: Arousing Lay Describe the effects (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196766) |
 |
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:56 AM Author: smoky associate bbw https://wallpaper.dog/large/20379828.jpg (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196803) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:41 AM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47197006) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:57 AM Author: Bateful Elite Abode Jap I think that’s very unhealthy friend especially if you’re at 200/wk. also the results will likely normalize in a few months and won’t feel as great (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196805) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:00 AM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic Better to burn twice as bright and half as long friend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196810) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:03 AM Author: smoky associate bbw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196825) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:13 AM Author: Arousing Lay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196880) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:35 PM Author: spectacular stock car fortuitous meteor (chill, fratty Nexus-6™ android) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198557) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:16 AM Author: Rebellious School do you want to have kids in the future (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196895) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:47 AM Author: smoky associate bbw No I’m done having kids. If this makes it harder for me to get my wife pregnant then that’s a 180 bonus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47197023) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 11:52 AM Author: Rebellious School DESCRIBE the physical effects. horny and crushing your gym lifts? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47197359) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 12:11 PM Author: smoky associate bbw Sex drive is reinvigorated. I barely have to even work out now since even a moderate amount of exercise puts me in great shape (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47197462) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:17 PM Author: Rebellious School sounds like the dream, brother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198478) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:42 PM Author: smoky associate bbw he’ll ya (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198587) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:30 AM Author: 180 Crusty Community Account National is trt always w/ injections, or are their non-needle options? there are some ripped boomers at my gym that have to be gear'd up (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47196952) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:43 AM Author: Vibrant address cumskin Pills and gels. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47197016) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:37 PM Author: soul-stirring cruise ship Lame. Either you have it or you don't. Don't cheat. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198571) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:43 PM Author: smoky associate bbw Sorry I don’t have your natural t levels. I was basically the same throughout my 20s and 30s then right when I hit 40 all kinds of weird stuff started happening and I suddenly felt like an old man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198593) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:46 PM Author: kink-friendly primrose ladyboy range I should do this, huh? Does it mess up you're sperms? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198601) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:48 PM Author: smoky associate bbw idk only been on it a week. I assume it will shorten my life span. if I can get 15 good years out of it though I think it will have been worth it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47198612) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 3:24 AM Author: Nofapping Theater Stage lulzy thread (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47200557) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 3:29 AM Author: vivacious pit hairy legs LOL IRATE GOOK DETECTED (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47200563) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:55 PM Author: Nofapping Theater Stage the first poster in xoxo history to provide a full write-up of a TRT cycle, actually:
https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4979749&mc=60&forum_id=2 |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 7:05 AM Author: Awkward deer antler forum I have a source for this.
What are the real negatives?
Does your body stop producing T normally and do o have to do trt forever now? |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 9:15 AM Author: 180 Crusty Community Account National your t levels go down with time. no need for a 'source', i think there are tons of these men's / anti-aging clinics everywhere that just do some bloodwork and get you prescribed (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47201396) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 9:19 AM Author: Awkward deer antler forum ok but to the question... if you do trt, is it something that you need to keep doing forever?
does it reduce the natural t your body produces, pwning you if you ever stop? |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 12:56 PM Author: Rebellious School (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202200) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:34 PM Author: Fantasy-prone gaping Upon starting trt, You will stop endogenous production much more quickly than it will resume if/when you stop trt, and that transition period is an extreme challenge. There is a guy on YouTube named Merijn who stopped TRT and is working through restoring natural production. Derek MPMD mentioned to Zack Telander that he will consider stopping exogenous T in the future. So restoration is not impossible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202643) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:49 PM Author: Offensive generalized bond mental disorder Great! I get to enter enslavement to Big Pharm for the rest of my gd life, forever seeking Rxs at Walgreens, or I will grow tits, lose my balls, and live as a shell of a person, a castrated person until I die!
Well… sign me up |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 12:05 AM Author: coral coiffed stage twinkling uncleanness Aren't you goy? If so that's basically your purpose in this economy/"life". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47210648) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 11:30 AM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic Real negative is that the exogenous T causes your heart to start growing in weird ways and you get a heart attack (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47201834) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:45 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency Only at massive doses, and good cardio / diet / supplementation (vitamin K2, etc. -- fleshlight tp has some 180 knowledge on this) makes the risk negligible against literally indescribably high upside (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202375) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:47 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic Vitamin k2 isn't going to stop cardiomegaly lol. The threshold for heart growth to start causing problems is very low. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202388) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:53 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency No, the rest of it (mostly cardio) will ameliorate that, and while the threshold for growth to cause problems is relatively low, the threshold of test for it to start growing abnormally is actually quite high. As long as your levels aren't exceeding like 2000 ng/dL you should be good.
The K2 is so your arteries don't harden as a result of cholesterol |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:20 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic There is no evidence for any of the ameliorative stuff, which is well studied. None of it used clinically to manage disease. LJL at citing fleshlight as an authority on anything except pretending not to be korean. There is very good evidence that heart tissue has preferential response to androgens at any dose which is why cardio training works so quickly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202551) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:25 PM Author: Multi-colored maroon box office cuck If T is kept at physiologic levels, why would we expect these impacts? Have heard no such concerns from Peter Attia, who is usually hyper focused on long term risks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202590) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:30 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic You're throwing a phat bolus of t into your bloodstream and all the receptors in your heart get the first cut at it, instead of a lifetime of t secretion from your own cells to a level which your body has very gradually acclimated (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202618) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:55 PM Author: Multi-colored maroon box office cuck I’m injecting sub Q 3x a week. Levels should be pretty constant and similar to where my levels were 10-15 years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202728) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 4:16 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency Lmao only applicable to test prop, which I agree has more risks than cyp or something else (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202993) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:45 PM Author: Rebellious School is Peter Attia personally taking exogenous T? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202698) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 3:23 PM Author: Multi-colored maroon box office cuck Not yet, but he is supervising patients and has said that the only thing holding him back is inconvenience of injecting multiple times a week. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202816) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 4:29 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency There's absolutely evidence lmao.
1. Difference in enlarged hearts as an adaptation in endurance athletes, rather than pathological hypertrophic cardiomegaly, is that the heart develops vasculature proportionally as it enlarges in response to exercise. This vasculature doesn't develop when the heart is enlarged exclusively in response to androgens, likely because angiogenesis isn't stimulated without sustained cardiovascular load.
2. Pathological cardiomegaly results in lowers contractility, meaning the heart has to work harder, at a heavier weight, to pump the same blood.
3. With already developed vasculature and continuing cardio load/stimulation, the heart isn't likely to lose contractility. In other words, as long as there's high oxygen demand to stimulate angiogenesis, the heart's preference for androgens won't cause pathological growth because the growth will be accompanied by vasculature.
Bottom line: if you're in good cardio shape and jump on test at reasonable levels, you have nothing to worry about as long as you keep running; if you want to jump on but you're worried about heart problems, get in good cardio shape first and then keep at it once you jump on. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:02 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic Dude you've gone from "juice doesn't make your heart grow" to "juice makes it grow but its ok because you can go jogging" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47207228) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:24 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency 1. No, my position the entire time.has been that the risks are low, pathological growth is pretty rare without insane doses, and cardio ameliorates that anyway. You said there was no evidence for that and I gaped you.
2. Wanna try to discuss the physiology of it or are you gonna stick with "muh heart attack" without engaging with the question at all? This shit is not hard to understand, maybe look at the data. |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 5:14 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic Your argument makes no sense. You are talking about how doing cardio doesn't hurt the heart because it vascularizes to match the growth induced by cardio. So how can cardio produce extra vascularization to match the androgen-induced growth?
Also keep in mind that when you talk about heart enlargement etc the hazard typically eventuates during crises and not every day life. So ppl can walk around ok 99% on juice but when they get cytomegalovirus or something else that would be survivable they have no risk ceiling because their heart is already plumped up |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 12:02 AM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency Because size is the limiting factor for angiogenesis, assuming cardio stimulus is present, so the vasculature will keep up.
Would love to hear how enlarged heart increases risk of CMV death lmao; the actual issues with an enlarged heart are primarily arrhythmia and lost of contractility in the left ventricle, leading to heart failure. Cardiomegaly doesn't cause either, it simply exacerbates them because the heart has to work harder, and it usually is only concerning to cardiologists as an indication of underlying problems.
Again, guys with healthy hearts and good cardio have nothing to worry about. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 12:27 PM Author: Rebellious School as someone who would consider TRT, i want to believe this. but aren't you taking a huge leap in #3? if androgens cause new heart growth, there is no reason to think that existing healthy athletic vasculature would save you from the pathological growth from TRT (which growth occurs without accompanying healthy vasculature) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47211512) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:31 PM Author: galvanic goal in life Add nattokinase (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202626) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:48 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic TRT also turns you into a fag and at the least you will become obsessed with fucking trannies. You will have female mood swings and become suicidal - veterans blame TBI for this but it's the juice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202397) |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 10:01 AM Author: cruel-hearted wonderful principal's office crotch He's already a poaster (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47208457) |
|
Date: January 6th, 2026 2:37 AM Author: Amber hospital This sounds 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#49565935) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:10 PM Author: Multi-colored maroon box office cuck I started in August and feel great. 120/week + HCG. Goal is to stay at high physiologic levels.
Went from being tired everyday with poor sleep to being pretty much filled with energy all the time. At same time, progress in weight training accelerated meaningfully. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:56 PM Author: spruce hyperventilating house private investor Where are you getting the HCG? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205920) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:32 PM Author: Fantasy-prone gaping Emphasis on "cheat." Enjoy while it lasts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202630) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:39 PM Author: big-titted pozpig psychic (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202673) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:46 PM Author: Rebellious School did you do it? it stopped working after a while? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47202701) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:15 AM Author: Fantasy-prone gaping I did not do it but I lived with crashed T for ~18 months after my deployment and my doctor and I discussed it as an option and I did some research (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205197) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 10:29 AM Author: Rebellious School ty. and yours came back naturally? did you take any otc supplements or do anything different to encourage it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205440) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:17 PM Author: Fantasy-prone gaping It has recovered to healthy levels but not to previous levels. Ashwaghanda seems to make a difference for me. I did not notice a difference with tongkat Ali or fadogia agrestis (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205761) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:56 PM Author: Rebellious School ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205921) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:40 AM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency TRT is 180 for olds and there's no reason not to. I'm going to hop on the second my bloodwork shows my levels are irrecoverably dying, and you should too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205675) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:43 AM Author: Cerise market turdskin No reason not to do it other than increased risk of heart attack and stroke. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205679) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 1:15 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency Only if you're in terrible cardio shape in the first place; those are a result of pathological cardiomegaly. See http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2#47203029 for a basic explanation, and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109706018080 for an actual one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47206005) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:57 AM Author: Violet Public Bath Son Of Senegal I need to do this. My wife will be dead in a week though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205705) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:03 PM Author: sapphire site blood rage How many pull-ups can you do? I take finasteride and will reconsider if I can no longer do 15 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47205718) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 1:16 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency 36 without any TRT, will probably be at 50 before I jump on in 10 years
Get your blood work done, hop on if your levels are low. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 1:19 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency Fats, skinnyfats, and do-nothings who can't run five miles are itt whinging about "heart problems" when their current sedentary lifestyles and garbage diets are much more of a threat to their cardiovascular health or longevity than test ever would be, even at supernatural doses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47206022) |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 5:25 AM Author: marvelous field (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47208233) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:14 PM Author: Zombie-like Dead Locus Legend Anyone who is contemplating TRT and isn’t 50+ (at which point, why not) should take 6 months and see if this cocktail boosts your levels:
Ashwaghanda
Tongkat Ali
D3
Zinc
Boron
Shilajit
Creatine (doesn’t boost your T but better workouts will help you get there)
|
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:14 PM Author: Buck-toothed Knife been on for 10 plus years. seems fine overall. didn't know I was low t but was out of shape... doctor said won't hurt. now work out 5-6 days a week and have tons of energy. best part is you can get in amazing shape, esp compared to the average person your age. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47207261) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:26 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47207849) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:36 PM Author: Plum beady-eyed parlor laser beams Can you do this with creams only?
I tried but gave up after a few weeks because I hate hate hate injecting myself |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 5:42 AM Author: Motley ultramarine parlour how do you avoid the joe rogan/alex jones effect where your skull balloons out like a melon? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47208237) |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 9:46 AM Author: Rebellious School i'm not an expert at all, but i thought this effect (see also barry bonds) was from HGH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47208433) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 1:23 AM Author: Cerise market turdskin lol @ testmos convincing themselves that they won’t die early. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47210709) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 7:05 AM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency Hey, I noticed you didn't have any response here: http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2#47206005
|
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 9:43 AM Author: racy talking native round eye I'd suggest correcting the lifestyle factors that are lowering your T before going to TRT because not correcting the lifestyle factors will ultimately hurt you in the long run, and the long term effects of TRT are generally not known. In addition, you do have to remain on it for life if you start.
People in the US have an extremely weird skewed view of what is "normal" for male aging. A lot of it has to do with the SAD diet and other lifestyle factors common in the US that completely decimate your health and body, including your T levels. People wrongly tend to blame "aging," but really it is about health. Low T before the age of 65-70 is often a sign that you need to make a change to your diet and lifestyle. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 10:18 AM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency You don't actually need to stay on it for life if you don't want -- you can just taper off and then PCT with something like enclomiphene for two weeks, and you're back where you started.
Absolutely MFCR on lifestyle and diet. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 1:41 PM Author: Rebellious School can you get enclomiphene from a licensed usa doctor/clinic, or is it a black market thing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47211691) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 4:16 PM Author: cruel-hearted wonderful principal's office crotch You can get it from a us doc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47211992) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:43 PM Author: Rebellious School ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47212318) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:20 PM Author: galvanic goal in life Unfortunately if you’ve be been on TRT for a few years it will take well more than 2 weeks of enclomiphene and even a couple months at least of hcg amd hmg (very $$$) if you want to fully have functional and sperm producing balls with stable LH/FSH
I know this from irl experience with others, personally testing it and reading tons of publications on it - also enclomiphene is potentially carcinogenic like clomid long term and really elevates estrogen way more that they thought
Not shitting on your poast and yes enclomiphene is way more chill than suicide inducing clomid for pct it’s not a super chill easy process if you’ve been on it long term (1+ yr) and want to reset. It takes a while for LH FSH receptors to stabilize again after suppression they’re finding and the retards here thinking of getting on Trt Might think it’s just a simple chill process when they might be looking at months and tens of thousands in HMG injections to get back to previous normal
|
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:33 PM Author: Bipolar scourge upon the earth national security agency 180 poast, tyft
My impression was based on the experience of two guys I know from the gym, one 40s and one 50s. Both said the returned to baseline inside a month, but I never saw their bloodwork so I'm going to assume they were probably wrong. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:43 PM Author: Rebellious School (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2/#47212319) |