- all the risk is on the attorney unlike BIGLAW, FEDLAW, or even state/local law

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986543)

I don't know about personal injury, but it sucks to work on cases where the client bitches about every nickel spent and then doesn't want to pay because their shitcase is only worth $15,000 or whatever.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15989320)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15989263)

Because naturally, if their claim was real the Insurance Company would have given them a fair and accurate settlement before litigation ever started.

Horrible ID trolling.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987055)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15989259)

Credited.

It's just hard for people to look at more years of struggle post-law school before they get to where they can do real legal work well. I think when people graduate they think, "Okay, I've put in my time and worked hard--I'm ready for the fat pay for a few years," when instead, the model now is closer to, "Okay, now let me learn about real practice--that lousy pay at the local law office sucks but I will be networking hard and learning how to be a good lawyer during this time." If you went to a T14 law school, and if you recognize that learning how to be a lawyer is a lifelong affair, and if you continue to study and take classes on advocacy, etc. as a so-called shitlawyer, chances are you will ultimately pawn the shit out of other attorneys who stopped working so hard after law school.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15989214)

Here are the problems:

1. You put in 7 years to make the same or less as your undergrad or highschool buddies who are now in business.

2. You probably paid over 100k to obtain your training, but your salary doesn't reflect that

3. The hours can be just as bad as biglaw, but for half the pay.

Basically, shitlaw is shit because the lifestyle is pretty shit. You end up wondering why you even chose to go into law as you watch your buddies live the good life while you repay your crushing debt with your 55 hour a week job.

HTH

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986546)

What about commissions at the shitlaw level?

I feel like, with the right personality and ambition, you could make it work.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986563)

There is a reason why the average attorney makes only 40-60k.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986589)

If you're talking about TTT grads, each year a new wave comes in.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986623)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986550)

nonetheless, most people who play basketball never make it to that level.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986666)

seriously though. do you people even think about what you're saying before you say it?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986693)

but then there are times where the stupidity is just so sincere and pure, and quite obviously not flame. this is one of those times.

shitlaw always has been and always be denigrated here, and "ITE" has nothing to do with that. please leave this site forever and stop saying shit that's so obviously and ridiculously stupid. :)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15986757)

Nothing you said makes any sense.

Please stfu or at least diaf.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987074)

shitlaw "partners" live off of the blood of associates just like biglaw and work them just as hard - the difference is there is no market expectation so you see shitlaw associates being paid $40K which is less than they would be making 3-4 years out of college of even high school. The rote filling out of insurance forms is monkey work and unlike biglaw, clients dont expect associates doing such monkey work to have degrees from somewhere in the top 3 tiers.

The shitlaw market is saturated in most cities. in order to stand out and survive you need to "hustle". all the sales people on this board think this is great, but in lawyer terms it means being an unethical, subhuman prick most of the time. The stereotype for the shithead lawyer does not come from biglaw.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987007)

This is where you are wrong.

Hustle =! unethical or even disingenuous behavior. I have observed countless solos and small firms that have successfully managed their business without breaching any ethical boundaries or treating opposing counsel or clients like pieces of shit.

Do they make $1M PPP? No, but some do come close. Even the shops that don't take on 6 fig Trucker or MedMal cases still have a better QoL than a lot of BIGLAW grunts because they control their own hours and at the end of the day they are WORKING FOR THEMSELVES.

There is a huge difference between working 60hrs a week just to make a Partner happy, and then working 60hrs a week to maintain/build your own business.

"But most shitlaw firms fail in 5 years"

That is so far from the truth it's not even funny. I don't have the link, but there was an ABA study that found over 50% of lawyers practice in solo or smalllaw shops.

But then again, there is a large contingency of posters on this site that have no personality and have never had to build a reputation based upon their own integrity and not the ranking of their school/firm.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987115)

and again we are talking about shit law from the perspective of associates coming in and being expected to bill 2100 hours for $45K a year.

You dont just graduate from law school and start making 6 figures running your own shop.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987140)

However, this board paints a broad brush over small/solo shops regardless of how many years the practicioner had.

Is it stupid to open your own shop straight out of school?

Of course, you are asking to get MALPRACTICEPWN'd.

However, are you a shit-tactular attorney just because you run your own shop or because you are a part of a small 10-20 firm?

No. I'm saying that shitlaw is not an appropriate monkier for all small shops.

However, if you do malpractice lawsuits against other lawyers, then there is probably a place in hell reserved for your kind.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987182)

If you pay a lawyer $50K or less you are shitlaw and you are probably doing DUI defense, slip and fall litigation or insurance defense. Those markets are sufficiently saturated and competitive that you need to be a fucking prick to distinguish yourself unless you have contacts coming in.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987217)

shitlaw = charging $3-4k for immigration asylum case and then showing up in court where the judge asks them if they've filled out the proper forms and the lawyer fumbles around and says "no i haven't" and asks for an extension of time and the client thinks he's actually being an advocate for them (since the client doesn't speak english).

that is what i saw happening in 95% of the cases when i went to immigration court.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987200)

I think this board is judging shitlaw based upon a certain numerical value in compensation, not the integrity or diligence of the particular advocate.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987917)

their clients tend to be one-off (unless you're a repeat DUI'er or you try to get your whole family asylum) and since so much of the work is fixed fee, if their ass gets deported back to panama, you still keep the retainer fee.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987978)

In that case, it would be shitlaw IF the lawyer is just a shitty lawyer who is only focused on $$$ and not quality of work.

But then again . . .that could apply to a lot of other fields of law.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15988017)

What's interesting to me that, in the past year or so, the board has actually started to distinguish between smallaw and shitlaw. There are many small firms with top quality attorneys doing interesting work and charging high rates - the kinds of small firms T14 grads are joining aren't the ones chasing after $5,000 'soft injury' PI claims.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987077)

I think realistically that number should be $80-90K in some markets now. In real shitlaw they almost never pay associates over $50K because they dont need to.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987165)

the associates at these firms are more like paralegals

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987444)

this one guy i know who graduated top 40% at fordham worked at an ID firm in NJ where he had a 2300 billable requirement and made $45k/year. the work was terrible, the lifestyle's terrible. there was just no upside. it was a 3-person partnership of 2 guido brothers and their cousin and no chance they'd ever add any new partner, so you're stuck doing shit work for life for no money if you work there long term.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987699)

if you want $$$, become a successful shitlaw partner.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987748)

i actually think the way to go for good money and higher end work is be a good plaintiff's firm. you get ridic atty's fees b/c the companies always want to settle and the settlements are usually in the $3-5M range (including attys fees).

we just settled a case where we paid $500k in attys fees to a 2-person plaintiff's firm for not that much work on their end on consumer fraud class action. thus far, we'd billed about $800-900k to the case but obviously i don't see any of that money whereas they probably net a good chunk of the $500k. they have probably 30 of these cases pending at any given time and they work 9-5 (any time i try calling at 5:30, they're already gone). let's say only 5 settles per year at around $200-500k in fees per case (some settle at >$500k). that still nets a ton. quite lucrative.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987832)

I think the big difference between smalllaw and shitlaw is quality of work and integrity of the Partners in the firm.

Would your firm still send work to that Plaintiff Firm if they paid their associates $50k?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15988062)

the sad thing is he paid sticker for fordham so he has almost $200k of debt and nothing to show for it. it's a shame because he's a smart dood. the only difference btwn me and him is about 5-6 pts on the LSAT and going to a crappier ugrad (rutgers) but the difference in how our careers turned out is way more drastic than our stats would suggest.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987880)

for example, detroit market is basically $100-110k. i think there's one "local" firm that starts at $120k and a few small v100 offices that pay $145k

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987274)

in any case it's probably not a even distribution. few quality small firms pay less than $80K and almost no shitlaw places pay more than $55K.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987284)

http://www.elsblog.org/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/16/nalp_2006.gif

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1416859&forum_id=2#15987662)