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My take on Ricci

Not that anyone cares, but...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
The best solution: Congress should revise disparate impact l...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
Anybody? Nobody?
Startled spot
  07/01/09
she has a fivehead but was hot in buffalo 66
deranged corner dragon
  07/01/09
Haven't seen Buffalo 66, but agree on the fivehead.
Startled spot
  07/01/09
I haven't seen Buffalo 66 in years.
Bespoke coffee pot
  07/02/09
loved her sass in the Opposite of Sex. Looks better with a b...
boyish iridescent office selfie
  07/02/09
pick two of three: 1. government jobs shouldn't be award...
Yellow Big Boistinker State
  07/01/09
I choose 1 (absent some really narrow exceptions) I think...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
dropping 3 isn't an option for urban police forces. just is...
Yellow Big Boistinker State
  07/01/09
EXPLAIN
Startled spot
  07/01/09
you can't have a major urban city patrolled by 95% white guy...
Yellow Big Boistinker State
  07/01/09
I still disagree with "any test that has disparate resu...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
we have to cheat a little when giving out police jobs. and ...
Yellow Big Boistinker State
  07/01/09
Sorry, can't agree with you there. However, I think evalu...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
fucking brilliant
Comical judgmental sound barrier
  07/02/09
"It is not clear to me that there was no "strong b...
Vermilion theatre
  07/01/09
That's really what I meant (also, citing to the syllabus? t...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
Didn't have time to look through the rest of the opinion for...
Vermilion theatre
  07/01/09
I don't disagree that the test weighting is facially neutral...
Startled spot
  07/01/09
translation: liberal social engineering is tarded.
trip massive pistol associate
  07/02/09
who cares about this boring case?
Bistre ceo
  07/02/09
...
scarlet kitty cat
  07/02/09
...
scarlet kitty cat
  07/02/09
I guess people have moved on.
Startled spot
  07/02/09


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 6:31 PM
Author: Startled spot
Subject: Not that anyone cares, but...

Ultimately, I think it would have been reasonable to remand for trial, or to address the constitutional issue w/r/t remedying disparate impact law. The "strong basis in evidence" standard seems ill-defined.

Kennedy's majority opinion correctly recognizes tension between the disparate impact law and disparate treatment law, and correctly recognizes that scrapping the results of a test due to the racial makeup of those that pass is a negative employment action based on race, constituting disparate treatment.

The majority's decision that a "strong basis in fact" for a disparate impact claim is needed to engage in this type of disparate treatment, seems reasonable, though I have no idea if it is justified as a matter of law. Seems like the kind of arbitrary legal standard SCOTUS is apt to set.

It is not clear to me that there was no "strong basis in fact" for a disparate impact suit, based on the dissent's characterization of disparate impact law. Seems like it's *really fucking hard* to get out of a disparate impact suit if there is, in fact, a disparate impact. I don't buy the majority's excuse that 60/40 weighting was a clearly sufficient "business necessity" based on the union contract such that no disparate impact suit could get anywhere.

Maybe remand on this issue would have been better.

Scalia's concurrence is right on, and maybe they should have addressed this issue.

Alito's concurrence is right that the plaintiffs's claim should at least survive summary judgment on the grounds that a reasonably jury could find the fear of litigation was a pretext.

Ginsburg's dissent:

It's BS that the dissent appears to adopt the district court's rationale that scrapping the test because of racially disparate results isn't disparate treatment in the first place. Of course it is. You're making a negative employment decision on the basis of race. It doesn't matter whether the good test-takers had a "vested interest" in promotion, you can't refuse to hire a job applicant based on race regardless of his/her lack of a "vested interest" in the job.

Without explicitly saying so, the dissent is pervaded by the notion that unequal results = unequal opportunity, and that a test producing a racially balanced result is a "better" test.

However, assuming the dissent accurately portrays the law prior to this opinion, the City might have had a hard time justifying it's procedures under the "business necessity" rule, especially the 60/40 weighting of the tests.

There seems to be sufficient facts that a reasonable jury could find that another form of testing would have taken account of the needed characteristics w/o a disparate racial impact.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135409)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 6:34 PM
Author: Startled spot

The best solution: Congress should revise disparate impact law. Probably not going to happen.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135439)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 6:59 PM
Author: Startled spot

Anybody? Nobody?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135663)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 6:59 PM
Author: deranged corner dragon

she has a fivehead but was hot in buffalo 66

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135666)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 7:08 PM
Author: Startled spot

Haven't seen Buffalo 66, but agree on the fivehead.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135739)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 12:14 AM
Author: Bespoke coffee pot

I haven't seen Buffalo 66 in years.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12138696)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 11:29 AM
Author: boyish iridescent office selfie

loved her sass in the Opposite of Sex. Looks better with a bit of meat on her.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12140910)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 7:16 PM
Author: Yellow Big Boistinker State

pick two of three:

1. government jobs shouldn't be awarded on the basis of race, either overtly or tacitly.

2. to determine who gets government jobs, objective, anonymous testing is appropriate.

3. given the awful history of racial exclusion in our economy (including in the awarding of government jobs), any government hiring system that results in under-performance by blacks and hispanics must be rejected.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135832)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:30 PM
Author: Startled spot

I choose 1 (absent some really narrow exceptions)

I think 2 may be applicable in some cases, but not necessarily all.

I reject 3.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135940)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 7:32 PM
Author: Yellow Big Boistinker State

dropping 3 isn't an option for urban police forces. just isn't.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135950)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 7:37 PM
Author: Startled spot

EXPLAIN

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136006)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2009 7:39 PM
Author: Yellow Big Boistinker State

you can't have a major urban city patrolled by 95% white guys. just isn't going to work. and by "not work" i mean riots, violence, complete non-cooperation with cops, you name it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136024)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:41 PM
Author: Startled spot

I still disagree with "any test that has disparate results = unacceptable" as a proposition.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136048)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:46 PM
Author: Yellow Big Boistinker State

we have to cheat a little when giving out police jobs. and so it's better if we do it and lie about it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136091)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:54 PM
Author: Startled spot

Sorry, can't agree with you there.

However, I think evaluating "knowledge of the community" is totally valid in determining who should be policing a community.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136157)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 1:50 PM
Author: Comical judgmental sound barrier

fucking brilliant

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12141897)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:35 PM
Author: Vermilion theatre

"It is not clear to me that there was no "strong basis in fact" for a disparate impact suit, based on the dissent's characterization of disparate impact law. Seems like it's *really fucking hard* to get out of a disparate impact suit if there is, in fact, a disparate impact. I don't buy the majority's excuse that 60/40 weighting was a clearly sufficient "business necessity" based on the union contract such that no disparate impact suit could get anywhere."

I think this is off, based on Kennedy's opinion. It's not "strong basis in fact for a disparate impact suit" as the new standard, but strong basis in fact for disparate impact LIABILITY. (see page 2 of the Ricci opinion's syllabus, part b).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12135988)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:40 PM
Author: Startled spot

That's really what I meant (also, citing to the syllabus? tsk, tsk).

But based at least on Ginsburg's summary of disparate impact law, it seems like there's a pretty strong case for disparate impact liability (which seems ridiculous, but the law seems sort of ridiculous) since the city didn't provide much of a rationale for a 60/40 written/oral test weighting.

On second thought, though, there wasn't *really* strong evidence that some other test would have produced non-disparate results. Maybe that's the key, the the standard seems unclear at best.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136034)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:47 PM
Author: Vermilion theatre

Didn't have time to look through the rest of the opinion for more than the syllabus just now.

I read Ginsburg's dissent, but I don't see why the 60/40 written/oral test weighting heightens the likelihood of finding liability. Written or multiple choice components make a test much more objective, and I've mentioned this in other threads, but the practice of written or multiple choice examinations for promotion to leadership positions within a fire station seems eminently reasonable, if not desirable, since leadership positions require a much more advanced knowledge of firefighting principles, techniques, structural dynamics, and combustion principles, than your regular firefigher is expected to know. I could see the 60/40 test being more questionable for entry level firefighters...

But maybe that's where the dissent and majority simply disagree. Personally, I think the dissent was looking for any reason to find the test format seemingly arbitrary, especially given the steps the city went through to put a race neutral test in place.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136094)



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Date: July 1st, 2009 7:57 PM
Author: Startled spot

I don't disagree that the test weighting is facially neutral and even reasonable, but the law seems to say that if a test is out there that is also reasonable and would result in a less disparate result, you're on the hook for liability.

There was some evidence that this was the case (i.e. what they did in Bridgeport).

Taking that description of the law as true (which the majority doesn't really contest), then it seems like potential plaintiffs could have gotten past summary judgment if they sued the city.

If that (enough to get past summary judgment) is not a "strong basis in evidence," then what the hell is?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12136174)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 12:07 AM
Author: trip massive pistol associate

translation: liberal social engineering is tarded.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12138610)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 12:07 AM
Author: Bistre ceo

who cares about this boring case?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12138613)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 1:56 PM
Author: scarlet kitty cat



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12141933)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 1:57 PM
Author: scarlet kitty cat



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12141947)



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Date: July 2nd, 2009 1:58 PM
Author: Startled spot

I guess people have moved on.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1031646&forum_id=2#12141950)