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Will patent lit associates just start being paid more?
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:24 PM Author: crusty french chef knife it seems like since the AIA especially, the demand for patent litigators, particularly with CS/EE, has increased exponentially and is rising each month as the total number of patent litigations increases and the supply of qualified patent litigators remains stagnant.
What is the solution? not pushing out patent people from BIGLAW? offering them more money and creating two classes of lawyers? Hiring "technical specialists" to assist litigators with no clue on patent law and technology??? |
Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:28 PM Author: burgundy slap-happy useless brakes I don't know about 2 classes of lawyer at existing firms. I'd say maybe above market IP lit boutiques. They don't really need to pay associates more at existing firms, just make more of them partners. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23061985) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:40 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate i'm a mid-level and when i was in college as a stem and researching law school, it was the same story. patent people have always been in demand, but biglaw firms aren't going to start individually negotiating with junior associates to woo them in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062052) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:47 PM Author: crusty french chef knife same. I remember in 2005-2008 Patent lawyers were really in demand too. When we had events to meet BIGLAW lawyers and you had to fill out your "areas of interest" in a firm, almost ever single law student would put down "intellectual property" (even the vast majority of non-technical people).
However, it is legitimately different this time. The amount of patent work really has increased to absurd levels. There was always more demand than supply in general, but now the excess demand over supply is ridiculous and is getting worse by the day.
When a new position opens up in my market, you literally get 10 recruiter calls/e-mails about that position. |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:51 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate i hear ya, but it's the same shit and nothing's fundamentally different. a 300 lb chick and a 400 lb chick are both obese. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062121) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:05 PM Author: crusty french chef knife the difference is that the number of cases being filed increases pretty substantially every year, the number of patents issued does as well. so the long term trends show signs of stable growth.
at the same time, there are actually LESS American college students graduating from engineering programs nowadays and the foreign students who do these programs don't tend to go to law school here. So you have stable/increasing demand and at best steady supply. |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 8:35 PM Author: Autistic business firm pervert these EE majors can just go to Irell/Susman/Boies or other firms that have enough IP lit and pay better than market (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062712) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:44 PM Author: Sienna heaven The only way you get paid more is that you can get away with doing less work with less fear of getting axed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062076) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:46 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate harder to avoid work and blow off people if your practice group is swamped tho. it's moar likely you'll piss people off and get axed in that situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062083) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:47 PM Author: Sienna heaven Maybe, but then you can easily lateral. So the cost of getting axed is far lower than in other departments. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062087) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:48 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate then you have a year at the next place to blow off people before you get shitcanned again. you can't keep lateraling around w/o people getting suspicious there's something wrong with you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062096) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:49 PM Author: crusty french chef knife you can probably lateral twice before this is a problem though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062106) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:53 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate correct. so 2 yrs at your first firm (you'll have more slack as a junior) + 1 yr + 1 yr = you're still screwed as a 4th/5th yr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062133) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:56 PM Author: crusty french chef knife I disagree with your assessment that you only have 1 year at each new firm though, unless you're totally slacking off and doing jack shit. At a lot of BIGLAW firms, associates routinely bill 1600-1800 a year and don't get laid off. You'd have to be billing like 1000 at your new firm to get canned your first year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062153) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:58 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate if you lateral to an ip group that's swamped, it's hard to bill 1600 without pissing people off and actively avoiding shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062170) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:03 PM Author: crusty french chef knife this is probably true and the glitch in making this plan work. although sometimes patent groups are really busy and need to hire a bunch of people, then they slow down and they are no longer swamped. a lot of patent cases can keep people full time busy, but they can go away quickly if there is a stay or settlement. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062186) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:05 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate yeah, that's been my pain point on this thread.
seems like the patent groups that are always hiring are the ones that are understaffed and constantly swamped. also, they "need to hire a bunch of people," but they can't actually hire that many people because it's hard to find patent people, so they still end up underhiring. |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:09 PM Author: crusty french chef knife probably true.
the key to success in patent law is probably to find a firm that isn't swamped but is a big patent player and knows the market. this way you can get away with relatively low billing (like 1700-1900 for years on end) and they will never bug you about it because they know patent lawyers are in demand. |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:14 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate true, but easier said than done. how many big players aren't swamped? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062223) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 9:05 PM Author: Sienna heaven Yeah but you can still avoid work. Plenty of firms have the "free market system" = license to slack. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062907) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:50 PM Author: Sienna heaven I dunno, the market is pretty good. I bet you could still find a landing spot for quite a while. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062113) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:54 PM Author: crusty french chef knife I also think firms are fearful of canning IP associates right now, even if their patent groups are slow... they know it will pick up eventually and when it does they will have to spend a shit-ton on recruiters to get patent associates back, probably more than it would cost to just keep extremely low billing associates on for a year or two. And that's if they can even get new associates, good luck in this environment where there are 30 patent lit openings for every 1 qualified patent litigation mid-level who is actually looking to change firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062136) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:57 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate the issue isn't a low-billing associate who has low hours because the group is slow or because of the random nature of case assignments. rather, it's someone who has a reputation for avoiding work and blowing people off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062161) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:00 PM Author: crusty french chef knife you can still avoid work without getting a reputation for it. you just can't be outrageous about it. this is especially true for midlevels who can funnel a lot of work they don't want to do off to junior associates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062178) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:09 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate also true. this goes back to a point that i've made many times on here-- getting shitcanned is more of a function of whether you're liked than any benchmark (hours, ratings in your reviews, how many deps you've done) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062207) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:30 PM Author: Metal khaki twinkling uncleanness how do people who avoid work and blow people off not got fired immediately? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062307) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:55 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate but if you're trying to go to your 4th firm in 4-5 years, you are just going to be red flagged no matter how good the market is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062146) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:59 PM Author: crusty french chef knife I think this all comes down to how much "less work" you are doing. You can be a low biller and survive for 3 or even 4 years, never meeting your hours. Most firms have some number where it is no longer worth it to keep an associate on full time given the expenses associated with that associate. This number is usually somewhere near 1200-1300 hours. Anything over that is pure profit for the partners. So you can probably continually bill 1500 and remain safe at the firm assuming no other major screw ups. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062171) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:49 PM Author: crusty french chef knife this.
and if you're a patent associate who isn't necessarily on enough big cases, you can just kind of ride it out without looking for more work because they likely won't axe you knowing that work can come in any minute. |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 8:13 PM Author: slippery iridescent forum I heard IP bonuses used to be a thing, I wonder if they will return. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062602) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2013 8:58 PM Author: Autistic business firm pervert is this current bubble only for EE guys or any stem major (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062856) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 12:40 PM Author: crusty french chef knife CS/CE is the most in demand, EE is a close second... advanced pharma degrees are pretty hot too... everything else is meh. people with ME will be sought after mostly because they do patent work, not because of their degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23066531) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 12:42 PM Author: Sienna heaven Physics is reasonably high in demand also. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23066539) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:21 PM Author: maroon nudist dragon CS/CE/EE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Advanced Bio >>>>> Physics >>>> ME >>>> BA in Bio/Chem (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070082) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:29 PM Author: Autistic business firm pervert how about Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070192) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:30 PM Author: maroon nudist dragon safe so BIG SPACE LAW! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070201) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:41 PM Author: Autistic business firm pervert (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070314) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:33 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate we're splitting hairs tho. this may be true if you look at it under a microscope, but in plain sight, any firm would be desperate to snag even the undergrad bio dood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070235) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:41 PM Author: Autistic business firm pervert what if u havent done IP lit in years (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070318) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:46 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate wtf have you been doing then? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070374) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:52 PM Author: Autistic business firm pervert brief writing/appeals at a V100 ttt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070436) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:55 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate i'm speculating, but i'd imagine if you have stem + any ip lit experience, a firm will be happy to use you on ip lit cases. you surely could function as a competent 3rd/4th yr associate on a patent case, right? the might try to jew you out of a few class years so they pay you less, though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070466) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:27 PM Author: Lavender philosopher-king senate tbf, these firms are desperate to hire ANYBODY w a tech degree. firms would obviously prefer the ee/cs people, but it's like how a guy would prefer to bang a 9.5 and would still be thrilled to bang a 8.5, but is most likely not banging either the 9.5 or the 8.5. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070161) |
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Date: April 24th, 2013 9:29 PM Author: maroon nudist dragon this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070196) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:00 PM Author: Exhilarant Fat Ankles Goyim How good is the lateral market for midlevels with extensive biglaw patent lit experience but no tech degree? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23088772) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:06 PM Author: Sienna heaven Not great (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23088805) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:07 PM Author: Exhilarant Fat Ankles Goyim personal experience? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23088808) |