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if capital punishment isn't used in a case like Ariel Castro,

it should never be used. 3 (perhaps 4, counting the girl)...
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
There are worse things than death.
bateful corn cake
  05/11/13
im not sure this is a conventional view
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
But it's credible and non-religious. I saw Bill O'Reilly ...
bateful corn cake
  05/11/13
yes but the single greatest hurdle to capital punishment is ...
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
You might need to clarify what you're looking for in this th...
bateful corn cake
  05/11/13
if the best you got is that we shouldn't execute our own cit...
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
what's your argument *for* the death penalty in this case?
dark hell
  05/11/13
(1) undisputed and verifiable he committed countless acts of...
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
(1) that's not a justification for execution. maybe there's...
dark hell
  05/11/13
(1) yes, it is. our society allows for capital punishment f...
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
(1) You're justifying it by saying it's already done. An ap...
dark hell
  05/11/13
in (1) you tell me I can't appeal to normative, but when I s...
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
Yeah, that's the point, your argument is wholly inconsistent...
dark hell
  05/11/13
The fact that we should relax the Constitution does not impl...
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
Sorry bros I was wrong! it's 60k! http://www.cbsnews.co...
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
LOL @ a "life of extreme hard labor". Prison is g...
racy jade whorehouse
  05/12/13
the latin kings will probably protect his ass in prison just...
Razzle-dazzle talking striped hyena
  05/11/13
i imagine it's already been said. but jail for life is way ...
Tripping topaz hominid
  05/12/13
LOL this is only true for soft beta weaklings who would be r...
racy jade whorehouse
  05/12/13
Murder is never justified as a first principle.
Adventurous Hunting Ground
  05/11/13
...
bronze people who are hurt school cafeteria
  05/11/13
Question-begging; if the execution is justified, then it's n...
bateful corn cake
  05/11/13
The state should never take the lives of its citizenry.
Adventurous Hunting Ground
  05/11/13
A police officer can't take down an active shooter? [Not an...
bateful corn cake
  05/11/13
The state should never take the lives of its citizenry excep...
dark hell
  05/11/13
cr; not gonna stand outside this guy's execution with picket...
Galvanic fantasy-prone spot
  05/11/13
and why? what is the non-moral reason?
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
what is the non-moral reason for executing people? ther...
dark hell
  05/11/13
don't you think we can frame heinousness agnostically? like ...
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
Uh, the conclusions to be drawn from consistently applying t...
dark hell
  05/11/13
no, it's about restricting the realm of permissible state ac...
Galvanic fantasy-prone spot
  05/11/13
why? can't the state have moral opporbrium? (legitimately?)
Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode
  05/11/13
nobody's continued existence can cause ongoing harm, so exec...
Galvanic fantasy-prone spot
  05/11/13
You are assuming a lot here.
soggy bisexual ape ceo
  05/11/13
as is anyone who has a stake in this argument. but yeah, ...
dark hell
  05/11/13
We can do both.
racy jade whorehouse
  05/12/13
also, the way you're using "moral" it basically me...
Galvanic fantasy-prone spot
  05/11/13
I guess some people want to reserve the death penalty for th...
Cerebral dilemma background story
  05/11/13
what this guy did is arguably worse than shooting some rando...
Razzle-dazzle talking striped hyena
  05/11/13
i agree 100% but i'm not even sure how you "prove"...
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
Do you think what this guy did is worse than what Jodi Arias...
Cerebral dilemma background story
  05/11/13
(weird liberal flame)
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
then there are worse punishments for him than euthanizing hi...
dark hell
  05/11/13
Bring back the chair.
racy jade whorehouse
  05/12/13
He took multiple lives when he forced Michelle Knight's misc...
Hairraiser chest-beating travel guidebook
  05/11/13
this might be the best hook
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
If that gets him executed, do you think NARAL would be MAF?
soggy bisexual ape ceo
  05/11/13
yeah i don't know why to fix the whole "wrongfully exec...
mustard razzle range
  05/11/13
Because there's no such thing as absolute certainty.
racy jade whorehouse
  05/12/13
...
Orange Wrinkle Therapy
  05/11/13
If it wasn't for killing that baby he'd only have a kidnappi...
Opaque disturbing lodge quadroon
  05/11/13


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 12:59 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

it should never be used.

3 (perhaps 4, counting the girl) victims doubling as witnesses that can independently verify all of the acts.

Dude clearly has no purpose to society.

give me one credible, non-religious argument against execution in a case like this

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176923)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:00 PM
Author: bateful corn cake

There are worse things than death.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176928)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:05 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

im not sure this is a conventional view

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176945)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:13 PM
Author: bateful corn cake

But it's credible and non-religious.

I saw Bill O'Reilly argue that a life of extreme hard labor would be better retribution for the worst of the worst, actually.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176972)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:19 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

yes but the single greatest hurdle to capital punishment is wrongful death concerns which are absolutely 100% obliterated in this case

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176990)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:25 PM
Author: bateful corn cake

You might need to clarify what you're looking for in this thread, then.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177010)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 3:58 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

if the best you got is that we shouldn't execute our own citizens, I guess not much can be said

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177601)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:02 PM
Author: dark hell

what's your argument *for* the death penalty in this case?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177633)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:04 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

(1) undisputed and verifiable he committed countless acts of rape, abuse

(2) he offers no hope of reform or contribution to society

(3) putting him up in a cell and feeding him, caring to his illness will cost 40k/year till his death -- seems like a senseless use of government funds



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177648)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:08 PM
Author: dark hell

(1) that's not a justification for execution. maybe there's one implicit somewhere, but what you wrote is just a statement of facts. you need to be explicit in justifying this extraordinary action by the state.

(2) he had a job... he could 'contribute' something as a prison laborer

(3) just because it's almost completely clear in this case that he did it, that doesn't mean he doesn't get to exhaust his appeals. a capital case is more expensive than feeding him. no mainstream person would support a move to cheaper Chinese-style summary trials and executions

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177663)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:15 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

(1) yes, it is. our society allows for capital punishment for heinous acts, though perhaps arbitrarily cabined at aggravated murder. no one would dispute that this dude committed acts which rise to the level of heinousness contemplated by a garden variety 1st degree murder.

(2) You're joking right -- you'd allow someone that ran a makeshift dungeon in his home keep a 40k job?

(3) What I am saying is that in a case like this there should be no appeals. There are not going to be evidentiary errors. There is no "process" to preserve. Four people are going to be able to independently verify each and every capital crime

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177710)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:25 PM
Author: dark hell

(1) You're justifying it by saying it's already done. An appeal to normative behavior isn't a good argument.

(2) In federal prisons, felons are made to work. They don't make anything near $40k -- more like 10 cents an hour to be spent at the commissary. the benefit to society of their labor is much more than that

(3) So above you make an appeal to normative behavior to justify death penalty, but now you're arguing for something that our society and our constitutional right to due process don't allow. You are a pretty confused individual.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177785)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 5:25 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

in (1) you tell me I can't appeal to normative, but when I shuffle that principle in (3), you tell me I can't argue against what the Constitution guarantees.

And, yes, in a case like this where this no room for evidentiary error, I am arguing against the procedural due process guarantee of appeal.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23178199)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 5:27 PM
Author: dark hell

Yeah, that's the point, your argument is wholly inconsistent and confused. Either (1) or (3) goes. Without one or the other, your whole argument falls apart. The burden is on you to make a consistent and compelling argument here.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23178221)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 5:32 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

The fact that we should relax the Constitution does not imply that I cannot make normative arguments. In fact, arguing that the Constitution "should" be relaxed is itself normative. Who is confused here, brother?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23178269)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:09 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

Sorry bros I was wrong! it's 60k!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-57418495/the-cost-of-a-nation-of-incarceration/

but sure, let's starve government discretionary funding to entitlement programs because moral hazard blah blah blah (xo conventional wisdom)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177669)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 12th, 2013 4:38 PM
Author: racy jade whorehouse

LOL @ a "life of extreme hard labor". Prison is great for murderers, they get free meals, flat screen TVs, exercise, and other murdering pals.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184253)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:08 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle talking striped hyena

the latin kings will probably protect his ass in prison just because of his last name. fry this asshole

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176956)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 12th, 2013 1:54 PM
Author: Tripping topaz hominid

i imagine it's already been said. but jail for life is way way way worse than an easy death.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23183159)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 12th, 2013 4:40 PM
Author: racy jade whorehouse

LOL this is only true for soft beta weaklings who would be raped to death on day one. For a hardened criminal, prison is great.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184278)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:06 PM
Author: Adventurous Hunting Ground

Murder is never justified as a first principle.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176946)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:09 PM
Author: bronze people who are hurt school cafeteria



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176961)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:11 PM
Author: bateful corn cake

Question-begging; if the execution is justified, then it's not murder.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176967)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:20 PM
Author: Adventurous Hunting Ground

The state should never take the lives of its citizenry.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176994)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:24 PM
Author: bateful corn cake

A police officer can't take down an active shooter?

[Not an argument for CP, but a counter-example to your claim.]

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177009)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:02 PM
Author: dark hell

The state should never take the lives of its citizenry except in situations of immediate danger to the lives of others.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177624)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:06 PM
Author: Galvanic fantasy-prone spot

cr; not gonna stand outside this guy's execution with picket signs protesting, but execution should just be understood to be a thing the government isn't supposed to do

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177655)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:07 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

and why? what is the non-moral reason?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177659)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:08 PM
Author: dark hell

what is the non-moral reason for executing people?

there isn't one. you think rape and murder are wrong, and he should be punished for it. it all boils down to your sense of revenge and some vague primate principles of 'justice'...just morality by a different name.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177666)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:16 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

don't you think we can frame heinousness agnostically? like that a peaceful, civil society cannot exist if people are killing one another? social contract theory

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177720)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:26 PM
Author: dark hell

Uh, the conclusions to be drawn from consistently applying this principle aren't the ones you're looking for.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177793)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:18 PM
Author: Galvanic fantasy-prone spot

no, it's about restricting the realm of permissible state action. We (should) only put people in prison in order to protect society and to try to rehabilitate those for whom it's possible. Vengeance is not a legitimate state action.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177730)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:18 PM
Author: Bat-shit-crazy sienna prole abode

why? can't the state have moral opporbrium? (legitimately?)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177734)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:22 PM
Author: Galvanic fantasy-prone spot

nobody's continued existence can cause ongoing harm, so execution is not justifiable. That state is not a parent, their role is not to judge our conduct. Prison is (legitimately) only for protection and rehabilitation.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177761)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:23 PM
Author: soggy bisexual ape ceo

You are assuming a lot here.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177768)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:28 PM
Author: dark hell

as is anyone who has a stake in this argument.

but yeah, to make things explicit, it comes down to whether you think the state's role is revenge or keeping its citizenry safe (except for the argument that the death penalty is a deterrent, which i don't lend much credence)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177804)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 12th, 2013 4:43 PM
Author: racy jade whorehouse

We can do both.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184296)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:19 PM
Author: Galvanic fantasy-prone spot

also, the way you're using "moral" it basically means "thinking that some actions are better than others". In that way, all choices are moral.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177738)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:07 PM
Author: Cerebral dilemma background story

I guess some people want to reserve the death penalty for those who have actually taken someone's life. Some people think that murder is the worst crime and the death penalty should be reserved for that. Punishment fitting the crime and all of that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176951)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:11 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle talking striped hyena

what this guy did is arguably worse than shooting some random fuck in the head

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176965)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:19 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

i agree 100% but i'm not even sure how you "prove" this kind of a claim.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176988)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:20 PM
Author: Cerebral dilemma background story

Do you think what this guy did is worse than what Jodi Arias did?

What this guy did was beyond horrible, but the girls are happy and alive right now. They have gone through a horrible ordeal, but they are alive.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176997)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:24 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

(weird liberal flame)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177008)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:03 PM
Author: dark hell

then there are worse punishments for him than euthanizing him, no?

(working here from the premise, which you seem to accept, that there are worse fates than the painless death someone gets from getting shot or being executed)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177640)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 12th, 2013 4:41 PM
Author: racy jade whorehouse

Bring back the chair.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184284)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:23 PM
Author: Hairraiser chest-beating travel guidebook

He took multiple lives when he forced Michelle Knight's miscarriages. That is punishable as aggravated murder in Ohio. HTH.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177003)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 3:58 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy

this might be the best hook

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177603)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:22 PM
Author: soggy bisexual ape ceo

If that gets him executed, do you think NARAL would be MAF?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177762)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 1:08 PM
Author: mustard razzle range

yeah i don't know why to fix the whole "wrongfully executed" thing we don't just raise the standard of certainty to absolute.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176953)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 12th, 2013 4:39 PM
Author: racy jade whorehouse

Because there's no such thing as absolute certainty.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184268)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 2:53 PM
Author: Orange Wrinkle Therapy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177289)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 11th, 2013 4:27 PM
Author: Opaque disturbing lodge quadroon

If it wasn't for killing that baby he'd only have a kidnapping and rape charge. LOL @ soft on crime shitlibs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177799)