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The Myth of the "rich" BIGLAW lawyer
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:43 PM Author: amber dog poop Think the few of your classmates who get BIGLAW have it made?
Think Again!!!!!
After just 2 years almost half of them will leave and they will mostly have 80-100K in student loans remaining.
After just 3 years half will have left BIGLAW, most the law altogether, with about 50K in student loans.
After 5 years, 80% of them will be out of BIGLAW, half out of the law altogether. Their loans will mostly be paid off. Congratulations to them... they are now back to square 1.
After 7 years, 90% will be gone, their hopes of partnership shattered and they will have a measly 100K in savings (not counting 401K).
The few that make partner will be miserable forever.
Think they have it made? Think again. |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:54 PM Author: pink set glad i have parents who saved enough to pay for my tuition. just hope i can do the same for my kids one day.
the thing that boggles my mind are classmates of mine whose parents can afford to help them out but dont. fuck, i'd at least give my kids a 0 interest loan instead of watching them get railed by 8% interest on the unsubsidized shit. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:34 AM Author: bonkers emerald meetinghouse Greetings, boomer menace |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:17 PM Author: honey-headed sinister shitlib center This. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628590) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 8:46 AM Author: Mildly autistic domesticated feces lay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634549) |
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Date: September 14th, 2020 9:58 PM Author: Twinkling provocative black woman (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#40920848) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:58 PM Author: swollen abode mediation you're forgetting that these people get the opportunity to work on some of the most important and challenging deals and cases of our time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624318) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 9:09 AM Author: Thriller magenta market dingle berry ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626565) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:11 PM Author: exciting buff becky community account I would also like to say thank you.
How do lawyers always say this all the time without bursting into laughter? |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:17 PM Author: sexy aggressive trailer park Tyvmft. I feel better nao. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627697) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:21 PM Author: Excitant saffron crotch lololol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627719) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 8:46 AM Author: Mildly autistic domesticated feces lay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634551) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 2:06 PM Author: ungodly property regret stfo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20635896) |
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Date: September 14th, 2020 9:58 PM Author: Twinkling provocative black woman (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#40920851) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:49 PM Author: Khaki gas station very true (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628329) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 1:44 PM Author: Umber floppy range (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20635789) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 1:58 PM Author: Vermilion odious nowag parlor Not even remotely accurate.
2nd year (20 mos in). Of my NYC biglaw class of about 25, only 4 have left. All but one left for other biglaw. |
Date: May 5th, 2012 10:55 PM Author: Heady mauve stain station "After just 2 years almost half of them will leave and they will mostly have 80-100K in student loans remaining.
After just 3 years half will have left BIGLAW, most the law altogether, with about 50K in student loans.
After 5 years, 80% of them will be out of BIGLAW, half out of the law altogether. Their loans will mostly be paid off. Congratulations to them... they are now back to square 1."
link? salary and career prospects on departure at each level? |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: Mind-boggling sex offender It is accurate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624391) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:30 AM Author: big-titted people who are hurt indian lodge Sounds about right, though it's not as if they are all headed to the breadline. Most of these people are very happy to take a paycut for a BIGFEDGOV, MID/SMALLLAW or in-house counsel job after 3-5 years in biglaw, and that is considered a good result that may not have been possible right out of law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626690) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 3:07 PM Author: Khaki gas station This is pretty accurate. I know 1-2 that are sorta on the breadline, and others that just saved enough $ and had no loans to be comfortable doing part time work (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20636272) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:49 PM Author: Khaki gas station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628333) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:48 PM Author: Aqua Wonderful Knife it's pretty much spot on, retard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628862) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:50 PM Author: free-loading godawful indirect expression chapel maybe it was 5 years ago, in NYC. in 2012, in non-NYC biglaw, these numbers are not even close to accurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628882) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:56 PM Author: Aqua Wonderful Knife the VAST majority of people wash out in under three years and leave biglaw with substantial debt. partnership is less than a 1% shot, more like 0.1%, and it's completely accurate to say that it's a miserable lifestyle for most normal people. you can quibble over the numbers if you want, but the substance of the post is completely reflective of reality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628938) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:59 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot are you pulling these numbers out of your ass? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628959) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 5:59 PM Author: Heady mauve stain station he capitalized vast and called me a retard so i'm sure he's right (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20629493) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:13 PM Author: Aqua Wonderful Knife if you had ever been anywhere near an actual biglaw office you would know that 1/100 shot at partner is not an exaggeration. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20631563) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:21 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot work in one. Firm makes >5 homegrown partners a year. Class size even in the boom was ~100 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20631621) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:22 PM Author: carnelian sticky cruise ship In regional BigLaw, there are plenty of offices with like 70 partners, 70 associates, and maybe 5 incoming associates per year. Chances at partnership have to be way higher than 1/100.
My firm made 10 partners last year, and typically has only 12-15 summers. |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 8:56 AM Author: Mildly autistic domesticated feces lay Regional biglaw is called midlaw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634565) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 7:47 AM Author: navy hell Your characterization of the outcomes is pretty credited, but I don't see people washing out at the numbers you describe. I'd say: First 3 years: 30% First 5 years: 50% First 7 years: 70% The rest either make partner or counsel at my firm. I'd say partnership odds are around 20% of the incoming class (much higher if you manage to stick around long enough to be eligible, but which is easier said than done). |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:55 PM Author: swollen abode mediation yea, but a lot of people that leave big law are like earl and end up with jobs that still pay pretty well
even low-paying in house is still six figs early on with great hours |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:56 PM Author: Heady mauve stain station jinx faggot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624300) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:56 PM Author: alcoholic arrogant twinkling uncleanness parlour they will have BIGLAW on their CV and can lateral to any firm though, instead of small/mid-law associates that are competing with them ITE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624306) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:04 PM Author: Red round eye stag film after 3 years, all loans would be paid off most likely; less than 3 years if not NYC (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624348) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:06 PM Author: swollen abode mediation nobody in big law is tossing $50k/year towards loans (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624359) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:07 PM Author: Red round eye stag film False. Depends on priorities.
I paid off 150K+ in loans in just under 3 years and two of my friends did as well. |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: swollen abode mediation amazing
that must have taken some discipline |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:18 PM Author: Red round eye stag film I'm married so rent and expenses were sort of shared (me paying more but still better than going at it alone) and we had good sized apartment in Manhattan for very good rent (~2k) because it was rent stabilized.
I don't feel like I sacrificed much. In spare time, we did a lot of stuff like playing soccer with friends, riding bikes, going hiking, etc. which are not very costly. We like to cook a lot so restaurant outings were only once or twice a week tops and our social circle usually had house parties/dinner parties so no real bar/club outings.
I would say that in first year I was banking about half of my monthly post-tax paycheck ($4-4.5k+ a month). Also helped that my wife's job had good medical coverage so I just went on her plan (monthly medical coverage costs are based on income so this was way cheaper). Married filing jointly rate obviously helped.
If we chose to live in Hoboken or somewhere like that I would have saved myself another $20K or so with no city tax over that period. |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:31 PM Author: swollen abode mediation christ, i'm doing it wrong (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624544) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:53 PM Author: Khaki gas station your monthly takehome was $9K @ $160K? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628365) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:53 PM Author: Red round eye stag film slightly less maybe--i think was around $8700 or $8800 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628913) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot how much were you putting down a month? and what is your weighted average rate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624397) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:16 PM Author: Frisky crusty trump supporter theater How'd you end up paying over $20k/year in interest alone? Full price/full debt for both college and law school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624443) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:19 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624474) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:21 PM Author: Red round eye stag film My monthly payments were like $1200. I had 20 year repayment I think. I would just pay that minimum until I banked enough to pay off one of the higher rate gov loans in full (had that money in PIMCO bond ETFs in mean time). Rinse and repeat. Then moved on to lower interest private loans. This was all after I had saved about $25k as my rainy day fund (which I left untouched).
I don't remember exact numbers, but I had approximately 90K in private at ~3% avg and approximately 60K gov at 5% - 6.8%.
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:35 PM Author: copper box office goal in life Most people aren't. They're all idiots. I pay 60k+/yr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624578) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:37 PM Author: citrine business firm kitty cat doesn't your wife throw in some money for rent and shit? that would help (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624590) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:38 PM Author: copper box office goal in life Not until she starts her residency in June. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624595) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:40 PM Author: citrine business firm kitty cat well, doing what your doing isn't easy. i pay 45k/yr (interest and principal) and there's not a ton left over (but then i do put money in the 401k, which might be dumb, and i didn't make bonus last year) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624614) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:46 PM Author: copper box office goal in life Yeah, were it not for your 401K contributions we would likely be in the same place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624654) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:55 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot do you really think taxes will go down by the time you retire? explain to me this herd-like mentality with lawyers and their insistence on contributing to a 401k, despite crushing student loan debt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624727) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:04 AM Author: Heady mauve stain station tax free accumulation, breh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624790) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:06 AM Author: Stubborn coffee pot o and how much interest on interest have you earned so far? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624802) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:20 PM Author: sexy aggressive trailer park STFU my 401k is up almost 3% since 2006. TAX FREE baby. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627711) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:54 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot lol exactly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628377) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:08 AM Author: Marvelous Ruby Alpha Forum cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624816) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:53 PM Author: Cocky brunch marketing idea Yes, because when I'm retired I won't be earning a 160K salary, I'll just be taking distributions to meet living expenses (and I own a home, those will be tiny) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628906) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:28 PM Author: Titillating fighting useless brakes native I say this as kindly as possible: get a book on personal finance. Allowing interest to compound tax-free is a massive benefit. If you invest money tax free vs. investing it post-tax, you get a huge benefit, even if the rate at which it is taxed when you withdraw it from your 401K is the same. For instance, 10K invested now tax-free is probably worth double what its worth invested post-tax, even if you factor in the same tax rate when you withdraw it.
The original post is right: biglaw sucks. But save your money. If you're not putting 50-60K a year towards loans/savings, you're doing it wrong. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:31 PM Author: deranged irradiated hominid hunting ground and if your tax rate is massively higher when you withdraw it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20632192) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:33 PM Author: Stubborn coffee pot that's what these idiots keep ignoring. you think the treasury can just keep borrowing to service the deficit? they sure as hell wont be cutting spending, given the trend of both parties over the last 20 years.
the other thing is that the markets are so bad their big tax free compounded rate of return isn't even beating inflation, let alone coming near what the govt is charging on student loans. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:25 AM Author: Embarrassed To The Bone Self-absorbed Mexican if you don't have kids, what's stopping you? your income still allows for a decent quality of life unless you have really niggerish spending habits (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624922) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:25 AM Author: Stubborn coffee pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624916) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:44 AM Author: Excitant saffron crotch explain, law school costs $250k now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626728) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:26 PM Author: Stirring obsidian therapy tl;dr I didn't get biglaw and I am jelly as fukkkkkkk (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624519) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:12 AM Author: Fishy main people after 3 yrs most will have left the law? LOL i wish biglaw opened those kinds of doors. the sad truth for the vast majority is if you want to keep making 6 figures or even high 5 figures u have to stay in law (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626322) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:30 AM Author: Cocky brunch marketing idea LOL, I think your just aspie. MOST normal people in Biglaw end up wealthy by any reasonable standard.
Just look at the UVA Law longitudinal study - 16 years out for the class of 1990, the mean annual salary for men was:
Large private law firm: 536,000 (30.7%) Small private Law firm: 286,000 (14.0%) Government -----------: 138,000 (16.7%) Business/financial----: 374,000 (25.3%) Other ----------------: 268,000 (13.3%)
So let's say 62% started in BigLaw - a full half were still pulling down 500K there. And even if, after a few years, they opted for 9-5 Midlaw or chill in-house, still got a cool 250K+ (and in the South, not overpriced MFH) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:42 AM Author: Bright high-end jewess (doesn't understand mean versus median guy) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626720) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:45 AM Author: Excitant saffron crotch (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626731) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:31 AM Author: Sooty stage stock car You fucking idiot, the class of 1990 is not remotely indicative of what today's grads face (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626868) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:31 AM Author: Excitant saffron crotch (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626872) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:34 AM Author: Aphrodisiac Sanctuary yeah, things were totally different then... that was when being a lawyer was a career not a survival of the fittest like it is now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626882) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:52 PM Author: Khaki gas station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628360) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:36 PM Author: Marvelous Ruby Alpha Forum believe that was average household income. Probably a decent number of single income families, but significant number likely dual-income families. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627109) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:59 PM Author: Cocky brunch marketing idea Nope, it's "Mean Annual Salary for Respondents Working Full Time."
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:24 PM Author: Fragrant confused tanning salon patrolman lol what the guys above said (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627749) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 6:00 PM Author: Turquoise candlestick maker gay wizard The original post is worthless if it doesn't state what the typical exit opps are for people leaving biglaw. Anyone care to elaborate what they are? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20629511) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:23 PM Author: burgundy bateful orchestra pit nowadays u can choose between:
radioshack
joining army and going to iraq
professional barista
prostitution |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:24 PM Author: Dun blood rage true only a few survive, but if they do they build a substantial amount of wealth slowly but surely through middle age.
and you are a little off about how long it takes to get back to square one. probably an average of 3-4 years with full loans but less if you had some help. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:43 PM Author: burgundy bateful orchestra pit LOL man, not sure ppl who stay in BIGLAW more than 10 years really even save that much money since they usually are horrible with money and live an outlandish lifestyle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20632365) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 3:00 PM Author: Khaki gas station the people who last all the way to 8th year are usually the worst with money, they spend like crazy to offset their miserable existence (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20636222) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 9:46 AM Author: Excitant saffron crotch law school costs $250k. explain how you pay that off in 3-4 years? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634658) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 1:31 PM Author: Cocky brunch marketing idea Man, this keeps on getting more exaggerated. It's 120K in tuition. You'd have living expenses even without law school (and likely higher ones). You'll make 35K-60K during the summers. And except at HYS, you'll likely get some merit aid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20635730) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 1:54 PM Author: Cerebral address Tuition + books/fees is actually ~$150k with some schools closer to $160k.
You point about living expenses existing without law school is irrelevant to total debt accumulated in law school. We're not comparing law school vs. not law school, opportunity costs, etc.
But your point about scholarships and money from summers is true.
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Date: May 11th, 2012 2:24 AM Author: haunting comical space How the fuck do you make 60k as a summer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20667732) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 10:14 AM Author: Insanely creepy point Two summer associate jobs, one day, one night. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20668576) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 12:23 PM Author: Cocky brunch marketing idea 1L (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20669404) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 10:53 AM Author: Excitant saffron crotch http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6943.htm
$78k per year (this does include living expenses, but if you were working a job instead of going to law school you wouldn't be incurring debt for those expenses). at $78k per year, that's $234k. now add in the interest that accumulates while you're in school and you're up to around $260k. if you want to subtract out summer money, ok, but again after living expenses you're going to max be able to put $20k to it with one summer internship. if you get a 1L summer, maybe you're down at $220k.
even in your best case scenario of $220k and someone in biglaw paying $50k per year towards loans (well above average, and about 50% of take home), you're still looking at minimum 4 years to pay it off, assuming you put all raises and bonuses towards loans as well - remember, you're still accumulating $15k to $20k in interest alone each year.
assuming you can last that long, thats 4 years of brutal hours while living off of the equivalent of $50k / year just to get back to zero. that's best case scenario. now imagine you got the job in NYC, since that's where most biglaw jobs are, and you only got one summer internship, like most people. now it's closer to 6-7 years, which you likely won't make, which means you'll get pushed out while you still have $100k of debt. save up to buy a house? lol, nope.
also, "other than at HYS you'll get some merit aid." orly? |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 5:24 PM Author: Charcoal demanding organic girlfriend garrison -----now imagine you got the job in NYC, since that's where most biglaw jobs are, and you only got one summer internship, like most people. now it's closer to 6-7 years -------
I don't quite follow, how did it get from 4yr to 6-7yr? |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 5:53 PM Author: pearl talented doctorate pozpig 240k debt is payable in 5 years. By year 5 you make 250k all in and of corp have some decent 6 fig exit opps. Problem is making it to Y5.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20671400) |