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The Myth of the "rich" BIGLAW lawyer
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:43 PM Author: Apoplectic talented library trump supporter Think the few of your classmates who get BIGLAW have it made?
Think Again!!!!!
After just 2 years almost half of them will leave and they will mostly have 80-100K in student loans remaining.
After just 3 years half will have left BIGLAW, most the law altogether, with about 50K in student loans.
After 5 years, 80% of them will be out of BIGLAW, half out of the law altogether. Their loans will mostly be paid off. Congratulations to them... they are now back to square 1.
After 7 years, 90% will be gone, their hopes of partnership shattered and they will have a measly 100K in savings (not counting 401K).
The few that make partner will be miserable forever.
Think they have it made? Think again. |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:54 PM Author: passionate aggressive indian lodge factory reset button glad i have parents who saved enough to pay for my tuition. just hope i can do the same for my kids one day.
the thing that boggles my mind are classmates of mine whose parents can afford to help them out but dont. fuck, i'd at least give my kids a 0 interest loan instead of watching them get railed by 8% interest on the unsubsidized shit. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:34 AM Author: Ruby razzle bbw Greetings, boomer menace |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:17 PM Author: Marvelous gunner This. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628590) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 8:46 AM Author: adventurous house water buffalo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634549) |
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Date: September 14th, 2020 9:58 PM Author: Stimulating Garrison Really Tough Guy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#40920848) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:58 PM Author: Chrome stirring dog poop hell you're forgetting that these people get the opportunity to work on some of the most important and challenging deals and cases of our time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624318) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 9:09 AM Author: violent pervert fortuitous meteor ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626565) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:11 PM Author: Snowy public bath I would also like to say thank you.
How do lawyers always say this all the time without bursting into laughter? |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:17 PM Author: Beady-eyed At-the-ready Ladyboy Tyvmft. I feel better nao. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627697) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:21 PM Author: razzmatazz insane heaven lololol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627719) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 8:46 AM Author: adventurous house water buffalo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634551) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 2:06 PM Author: cracking university stfo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20635896) |
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Date: September 14th, 2020 9:58 PM Author: Stimulating Garrison Really Tough Guy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#40920851) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:49 PM Author: Rusted Boyish Rehab very true (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628329) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 1:44 PM Author: Fragrant flirting shrine (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20635789) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 1:58 PM Author: Curious School Cafeteria Fanboi Not even remotely accurate.
2nd year (20 mos in). Of my NYC biglaw class of about 25, only 4 have left. All but one left for other biglaw. |
Date: May 5th, 2012 10:55 PM Author: sinister organic girlfriend "After just 2 years almost half of them will leave and they will mostly have 80-100K in student loans remaining.
After just 3 years half will have left BIGLAW, most the law altogether, with about 50K in student loans.
After 5 years, 80% of them will be out of BIGLAW, half out of the law altogether. Their loans will mostly be paid off. Congratulations to them... they are now back to square 1."
link? salary and career prospects on departure at each level? |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: Pale old irish cottage It is accurate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624391) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:30 AM Author: autistic rose piazza Sounds about right, though it's not as if they are all headed to the breadline. Most of these people are very happy to take a paycut for a BIGFEDGOV, MID/SMALLLAW or in-house counsel job after 3-5 years in biglaw, and that is considered a good result that may not have been possible right out of law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626690) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 3:07 PM Author: Rusted Boyish Rehab This is pretty accurate. I know 1-2 that are sorta on the breadline, and others that just saved enough $ and had no loans to be comfortable doing part time work (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20636272) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:49 PM Author: Rusted Boyish Rehab (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628333) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:48 PM Author: Coiffed Theater Milk it's pretty much spot on, retard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628862) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:50 PM Author: floppy principal's office pistol maybe it was 5 years ago, in NYC. in 2012, in non-NYC biglaw, these numbers are not even close to accurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628882) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:56 PM Author: Coiffed Theater Milk the VAST majority of people wash out in under three years and leave biglaw with substantial debt. partnership is less than a 1% shot, more like 0.1%, and it's completely accurate to say that it's a miserable lifestyle for most normal people. you can quibble over the numbers if you want, but the substance of the post is completely reflective of reality. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628938) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:59 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting are you pulling these numbers out of your ass? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628959) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 5:59 PM Author: sinister organic girlfriend he capitalized vast and called me a retard so i'm sure he's right (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20629493) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:13 PM Author: Coiffed Theater Milk if you had ever been anywhere near an actual biglaw office you would know that 1/100 shot at partner is not an exaggeration. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20631563) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:21 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting work in one. Firm makes >5 homegrown partners a year. Class size even in the boom was ~100 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20631621) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:22 PM Author: mentally impaired state therapy In regional BigLaw, there are plenty of offices with like 70 partners, 70 associates, and maybe 5 incoming associates per year. Chances at partnership have to be way higher than 1/100.
My firm made 10 partners last year, and typically has only 12-15 summers. |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 8:56 AM Author: adventurous house water buffalo Regional biglaw is called midlaw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634565) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 7:47 AM Author: Pink slap-happy set messiness Your characterization of the outcomes is pretty credited, but I don't see people washing out at the numbers you describe. I'd say: First 3 years: 30% First 5 years: 50% First 7 years: 70% The rest either make partner or counsel at my firm. I'd say partnership odds are around 20% of the incoming class (much higher if you manage to stick around long enough to be eligible, but which is easier said than done). |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:55 PM Author: Chrome stirring dog poop hell yea, but a lot of people that leave big law are like earl and end up with jobs that still pay pretty well
even low-paying in house is still six figs early on with great hours |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:56 PM Author: sinister organic girlfriend jinx faggot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624300) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 10:56 PM Author: trip fear-inspiring kitty cat puppy they will have BIGLAW on their CV and can lateral to any firm though, instead of small/mid-law associates that are competing with them ITE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624306) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:04 PM Author: azure regret after 3 years, all loans would be paid off most likely; less than 3 years if not NYC (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624348) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:06 PM Author: Chrome stirring dog poop hell nobody in big law is tossing $50k/year towards loans (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624359) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:07 PM Author: azure regret False. Depends on priorities.
I paid off 150K+ in loans in just under 3 years and two of my friends did as well. |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: Chrome stirring dog poop hell amazing
that must have taken some discipline |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:18 PM Author: azure regret I'm married so rent and expenses were sort of shared (me paying more but still better than going at it alone) and we had good sized apartment in Manhattan for very good rent (~2k) because it was rent stabilized.
I don't feel like I sacrificed much. In spare time, we did a lot of stuff like playing soccer with friends, riding bikes, going hiking, etc. which are not very costly. We like to cook a lot so restaurant outings were only once or twice a week tops and our social circle usually had house parties/dinner parties so no real bar/club outings.
I would say that in first year I was banking about half of my monthly post-tax paycheck ($4-4.5k+ a month). Also helped that my wife's job had good medical coverage so I just went on her plan (monthly medical coverage costs are based on income so this was way cheaper). Married filing jointly rate obviously helped.
If we chose to live in Hoboken or somewhere like that I would have saved myself another $20K or so with no city tax over that period. |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:31 PM Author: Chrome stirring dog poop hell christ, i'm doing it wrong (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624544) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:53 PM Author: Rusted Boyish Rehab your monthly takehome was $9K @ $160K? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628365) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:53 PM Author: azure regret slightly less maybe--i think was around $8700 or $8800 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628913) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:10 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting how much were you putting down a month? and what is your weighted average rate? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624397) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:16 PM Author: 180 silver people who are hurt son of senegal How'd you end up paying over $20k/year in interest alone? Full price/full debt for both college and law school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624443) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:19 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624474) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:21 PM Author: azure regret My monthly payments were like $1200. I had 20 year repayment I think. I would just pay that minimum until I banked enough to pay off one of the higher rate gov loans in full (had that money in PIMCO bond ETFs in mean time). Rinse and repeat. Then moved on to lower interest private loans. This was all after I had saved about $25k as my rainy day fund (which I left untouched).
I don't remember exact numbers, but I had approximately 90K in private at ~3% avg and approximately 60K gov at 5% - 6.8%.
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:35 PM Author: cerise unholy jap friendly grandma Most people aren't. They're all idiots. I pay 60k+/yr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624578) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:37 PM Author: excitant dark partner private investor doesn't your wife throw in some money for rent and shit? that would help (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624590) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:38 PM Author: cerise unholy jap friendly grandma Not until she starts her residency in June. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624595) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:40 PM Author: excitant dark partner private investor well, doing what your doing isn't easy. i pay 45k/yr (interest and principal) and there's not a ton left over (but then i do put money in the 401k, which might be dumb, and i didn't make bonus last year) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624614) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:46 PM Author: cerise unholy jap friendly grandma Yeah, were it not for your 401K contributions we would likely be in the same place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624654) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:55 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting do you really think taxes will go down by the time you retire? explain to me this herd-like mentality with lawyers and their insistence on contributing to a 401k, despite crushing student loan debt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624727) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:04 AM Author: sinister organic girlfriend tax free accumulation, breh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624790) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:06 AM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting o and how much interest on interest have you earned so far? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624802) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:20 PM Author: Beady-eyed At-the-ready Ladyboy STFU my 401k is up almost 3% since 2006. TAX FREE baby. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627711) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:54 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting lol exactly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628377) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:08 AM Author: Jet-lagged Red Meetinghouse Philosopher-king cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624816) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:53 PM Author: flesh native Yes, because when I'm retired I won't be earning a 160K salary, I'll just be taking distributions to meet living expenses (and I own a home, those will be tiny) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628906) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:28 PM Author: Black Hunting Ground Shitlib I say this as kindly as possible: get a book on personal finance. Allowing interest to compound tax-free is a massive benefit. If you invest money tax free vs. investing it post-tax, you get a huge benefit, even if the rate at which it is taxed when you withdraw it from your 401K is the same. For instance, 10K invested now tax-free is probably worth double what its worth invested post-tax, even if you factor in the same tax rate when you withdraw it.
The original post is right: biglaw sucks. But save your money. If you're not putting 50-60K a year towards loans/savings, you're doing it wrong. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:31 PM Author: Glittery Amber Office and if your tax rate is massively higher when you withdraw it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20632192) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:33 PM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting that's what these idiots keep ignoring. you think the treasury can just keep borrowing to service the deficit? they sure as hell wont be cutting spending, given the trend of both parties over the last 20 years.
the other thing is that the markets are so bad their big tax free compounded rate of return isn't even beating inflation, let alone coming near what the govt is charging on student loans. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:25 AM Author: Painfully Honest Incel if you don't have kids, what's stopping you? your income still allows for a decent quality of life unless you have really niggerish spending habits (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624922) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:25 AM Author: vigorous sanctuary famous landscape painting (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624916) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:44 AM Author: razzmatazz insane heaven explain, law school costs $250k now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626728) |
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Date: May 5th, 2012 11:26 PM Author: Sick Stead Giraffe tl;dr I didn't get biglaw and I am jelly as fukkkkkkk (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20624519) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:12 AM Author: amethyst stage after 3 yrs most will have left the law? LOL i wish biglaw opened those kinds of doors. the sad truth for the vast majority is if you want to keep making 6 figures or even high 5 figures u have to stay in law (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626322) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 4:30 AM Author: flesh native LOL, I think your just aspie. MOST normal people in Biglaw end up wealthy by any reasonable standard.
Just look at the UVA Law longitudinal study - 16 years out for the class of 1990, the mean annual salary for men was:
Large private law firm: 536,000 (30.7%) Small private Law firm: 286,000 (14.0%) Government -----------: 138,000 (16.7%) Business/financial----: 374,000 (25.3%) Other ----------------: 268,000 (13.3%)
So let's say 62% started in BigLaw - a full half were still pulling down 500K there. And even if, after a few years, they opted for 9-5 Midlaw or chill in-house, still got a cool 250K+ (and in the South, not overpriced MFH) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:42 AM Author: Lascivious tanning salon (doesn't understand mean versus median guy) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626720) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:45 AM Author: razzmatazz insane heaven (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626731) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:31 AM Author: provocative orchestra pit codepig You fucking idiot, the class of 1990 is not remotely indicative of what today's grads face (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626868) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:31 AM Author: razzmatazz insane heaven (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626872) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:34 AM Author: Insecure Histrionic Yarmulke yeah, things were totally different then... that was when being a lawyer was a career not a survival of the fittest like it is now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20626882) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 3:52 PM Author: Rusted Boyish Rehab (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20628360) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 12:36 PM Author: Jet-lagged Red Meetinghouse Philosopher-king believe that was average household income. Probably a decent number of single income families, but significant number likely dual-income families. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627109) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:59 PM Author: flesh native Nope, it's "Mean Annual Salary for Respondents Working Full Time."
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Date: May 6th, 2012 2:24 PM Author: Clear lodge lol what the guys above said (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20627749) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 6:00 PM Author: swashbuckling walnut juggernaut hospital The original post is worthless if it doesn't state what the typical exit opps are for people leaving biglaw. Anyone care to elaborate what they are? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20629511) |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:23 PM Author: salmon greedy national sweet tailpipe nowadays u can choose between:
radioshack
joining army and going to iraq
professional barista
prostitution |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 10:24 PM Author: Startling business firm halford true only a few survive, but if they do they build a substantial amount of wealth slowly but surely through middle age.
and you are a little off about how long it takes to get back to square one. probably an average of 3-4 years with full loans but less if you had some help. |
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Date: May 6th, 2012 11:43 PM Author: salmon greedy national sweet tailpipe LOL man, not sure ppl who stay in BIGLAW more than 10 years really even save that much money since they usually are horrible with money and live an outlandish lifestyle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20632365) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 3:00 PM Author: Rusted Boyish Rehab the people who last all the way to 8th year are usually the worst with money, they spend like crazy to offset their miserable existence (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20636222) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 9:46 AM Author: razzmatazz insane heaven law school costs $250k. explain how you pay that off in 3-4 years? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20634658) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 1:31 PM Author: flesh native Man, this keeps on getting more exaggerated. It's 120K in tuition. You'd have living expenses even without law school (and likely higher ones). You'll make 35K-60K during the summers. And except at HYS, you'll likely get some merit aid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20635730) |
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Date: May 7th, 2012 1:54 PM Author: Mauve idiotic locus Tuition + books/fees is actually ~$150k with some schools closer to $160k.
You point about living expenses existing without law school is irrelevant to total debt accumulated in law school. We're not comparing law school vs. not law school, opportunity costs, etc.
But your point about scholarships and money from summers is true.
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Date: May 11th, 2012 2:24 AM Author: Shaky pearl corn cake How the fuck do you make 60k as a summer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20667732) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 10:14 AM Author: laughsome goyim parlour Two summer associate jobs, one day, one night. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20668576) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 12:23 PM Author: flesh native 1L (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20669404) |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 10:53 AM Author: razzmatazz insane heaven http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6943.htm
$78k per year (this does include living expenses, but if you were working a job instead of going to law school you wouldn't be incurring debt for those expenses). at $78k per year, that's $234k. now add in the interest that accumulates while you're in school and you're up to around $260k. if you want to subtract out summer money, ok, but again after living expenses you're going to max be able to put $20k to it with one summer internship. if you get a 1L summer, maybe you're down at $220k.
even in your best case scenario of $220k and someone in biglaw paying $50k per year towards loans (well above average, and about 50% of take home), you're still looking at minimum 4 years to pay it off, assuming you put all raises and bonuses towards loans as well - remember, you're still accumulating $15k to $20k in interest alone each year.
assuming you can last that long, thats 4 years of brutal hours while living off of the equivalent of $50k / year just to get back to zero. that's best case scenario. now imagine you got the job in NYC, since that's where most biglaw jobs are, and you only got one summer internship, like most people. now it's closer to 6-7 years, which you likely won't make, which means you'll get pushed out while you still have $100k of debt. save up to buy a house? lol, nope.
also, "other than at HYS you'll get some merit aid." orly? |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 5:24 PM Author: Flatulent Cerebral Becky -----now imagine you got the job in NYC, since that's where most biglaw jobs are, and you only got one summer internship, like most people. now it's closer to 6-7 years -------
I don't quite follow, how did it get from 4yr to 6-7yr? |
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Date: May 11th, 2012 5:53 PM Author: Angry National Security Agency Antidepressant Drug 240k debt is payable in 5 years. By year 5 you make 250k all in and of corp have some decent 6 fig exit opps. Problem is making it to Y5.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1941423&forum_id=2#20671400) |