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Former evangelical, taking questions.
| zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend | 05/17/12 |
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: May 17th, 2012 5:25 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20712726) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 5:26 PM Author: nubile scarlet temple doctorate sup bro? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20712734) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 5:27 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend Jesus was definitely a fag. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20712736) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 5:27 PM Author: nubile scarlet temple doctorate is this concern trolling? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20712739) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 5:49 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoSc8-LGMdU&t=1m00s (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20712879) |
Date: May 17th, 2012 5:28 PM Author: crawly gaped legend cuckoldry Describe how you lost faith.
Also, how would you describe yourself now? Atheist? Agnostic? "Spiritual"? |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 6:31 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend It took awhile. My family was poor, but I could take pride in being the Model Boy at my parochial school. Being pure and holy made up for wearing secondhand uniforms or riding in a broken-down Ford. So even when I noticed the hypocrisy of other Christians, it just made my faith stronger.
The turning point was when I went to university. I worked my way through high school to pay tuition, but there was no way we could afford the evangelical college. To make it worse, the Model Girl was going there, and we'd been looking forward to dating (her parents approved, but only after high school).
After praying a lot for a miracle that never happened, I went to State. My parents believed in the church, but they believed even more strongly that excessive debt was a sin. I found out how far behind I was in the natural sciences. I took a lot of biology and chemistry courses (failed a bunch of them), at first in a retarded attempt to refute evolution and then just out of curiosity. My real passion was literature and history, classes where I did really well.
In one of my history classes, I met Mary, a Catholic. We were both religious, both living with our parents, both interested in Chesterton. She invited me for dinner at her house. Her brother was a Jesuit and literally laughed out loud when I tried high school apologetics on them. He was extremely smart, but very unhappy, and I think he liked cutting me down to size. When I told my reverend I wanted to "court" Mary, he advised against it (even tried to set up a date with Model Girl that summer, but she was already seeing someone else). He went with me to dinner at Mary's house once, got smoked by her Jesuit brother, and warned me not to continue seeing them. I decided to start attending Mass.
I studied Catholicism, but found it unsatisfactory. Intellectually, the Church Doctors were more convincing, but I didn't have that "first love." I was more skeptical, and this made faith in general more problematic. I read more of the existentialists. I also read a few atheists. Some, like Russell and Hitchens, I didn't care for, if only because it was clear neither had had a religious experience. Oddly, the most convincing arguments against religion came from traditionalist conservatives like Russell Kirk, if only because they defended religion as a social artifact instead of a metaphysical reality.
I remember walking back from the library one night, thinking, "What if there wasn't a God? What would that change? It would be lonelier, but I'm already lonely. Would the world be any less beautiful? Would I be any more moral or any less?" I pushed the crosswalk button and when I was on the other side, I was an atheist. |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 6:47 PM Author: Canary bespoke selfie Cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20713164) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 7:39 PM Author: dashing genital piercing state It's been so fucking long since I was like that. It's hard to remember what you're like when you're God's child.
Describe high school apologetics and your frenzied attempts to refute evolution. |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 8:32 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend I agree. I'm still shocked to read my journals from five years ago, where I was still frantically quoting Scripture and thanking Jesus for my breakfast. It's like a totally different person.
The one conversation I remember getting mercilessly pwned on was salvation by works vs. Catholic sacraments. Her brother laughed off my earnest sola Scripture method by confusing me with James 2 and asking me detailed questions about the Council of Trent. Then I got dumped with a bunch of Thomist arguments defending the Sacraments. "Trust me when I say you haven't studied this question as closely as Luther, and even he didn't know what he was talking about."
The evolution stuff was even more embarrassing. In my first biology class, I wrote a paper about "microevolution vs. macroevolution." Here are some delicious quotes:
"But while microevolution has been confirmed with experiments in laboratories, extrapolating these results to macroevolution is highly fallacious. Among the more troubling problems is the lack of transitional species. If men evolved slowly from monkeys, where are the man-monkeys?"
"Microevolution points to the divine, to God's providence in allowing animals to adapt to sin. Macroevolution exalts the bestial and tramples upon the Holy Writ."
"Professors at the Discovery Institute have shown..."
"Darwinism has social consequences too, as the Holocaust showed."
Luckily, my professor simply called me into his office and patiently discussed factual claims without directly challenging my beliefs. Over the next few weeks, he explained natural selection, never once using the E-word. One day he just left me for a few minutes in a room with a chart of the various kingdoms. Once I grasped the notion of a "common ancestor," it was easier to see why the micro/macro distinction was fallacious. I felt excited to finally get it. I wanted to study more so that I could refute this elegant theory.
Over the next year, I met regularly with this professor and asked more questions, attempting to trap him. He always answered factually, letting me work out the conclusion for myself. I didn't submit any more papers affirming my belief in microevolution, but I would still argue with classmates and the occasional teaching assistant. Finally, I realized this was a lost cause, especially after Mary's brother piled on.
I was actually more excited than disappointed by this, though. What actually frustrated me was taking organic chemistry and realizing I probably would have done better if I had been properly prepared in high school, instead of wasting time learning about Noah's Flood. |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 9:49 PM Author: Canary bespoke selfie (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20714371) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 11:38 PM Author: judgmental corner goal in life outted as a euro. americans go to college, not university. at least that goes for poor americans who grow up riding in beat up fords. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715163) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 11:39 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend Not Euro, just pretentious. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715172) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:25 AM Author: Flirting Mental Disorder Trump Supporter I bet this is copied and pasted from r/atheism. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743201) |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 1:38 AM Author: boyish house digit ratio what a dumbass. canadians go to university too, and some dumb pretentious americans (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20716068) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 6:46 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20713159) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 7:34 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20713418) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 8:20 PM Author: fragrant brunch turdskin Current evangelical, taking Q's in this subthread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20713709) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 8:33 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend When did you convert? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20713780) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 9:47 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20714363) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 11:31 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715092) |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 11:47 PM Author: Fishy potus I was a religious Jew (not Orthodox but kept kosher, kept the sabbath, believed in god etc.) who became atheist, but I guess that's more common and less interesting.
I didn't read anything in particular that convinced me other than the bible. It was more a gradual process of finding the religion and its texts internally inconsistent and ultimately slapdash and meaningless. It was almost impossible to comprehend the Torah as a deliberate, single, unified text and eventually I realized that was because it wasn't one, it was just a bunch of stories arbitrarily compiled over many years. |
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Date: May 17th, 2012 11:56 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend How did you feel after arriving at that conclusion? What's it like with your family? There are some obvious differences in our experiences, but probably lots of common ground too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715360) |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 12:29 AM Author: Racy lake parlor hominid I lost my faith in an econometrics class. It was there that I finally understood what a hypothesis was and that it had to be falsifiable. God and religion weren't falsifiable so I realized they weren't worth thinking about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715686) |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 12:31 AM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend I know some people are comfortable with this approach, but it seems to me there's a category error here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715699) |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 12:34 AM Author: Racy lake parlor hominid There's a lot more that caused me to lose faith that's less cut-and-dried. Hypocrisy and the poor quality of scriptural lessons among them. But for me this reason was enough, probably because I'm more of a pragmatist than a truth-seeker. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20715724) |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 1:13 AM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend Fair enough.
Hypocrisy was an interesting one for me. It's really clear now and absolutely repulsive, but at the time, it was my strongest incentive to stay faithful. |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 1:24 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state Weird how my path was different. Christianity was big about the 2nd coming and how without Jesus in your heart even good people go to hell.
Evolution was a way out of this nightmare. |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 1:36 AM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend How religious was your family? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20716055) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 9:17 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state pretty religious. We were one of those people who didn't celebrate Christmas because it was originally a pagan religion. Halloween of course was also out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20742992) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:27 AM Author: Flirting Mental Disorder Trump Supporter That's not "pretty religious." That's fanatical. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743211) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:30 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state Yup.
Towards the end of my time in the church, they were putting on "demon plays" to scare people into accepting jesus unless they went to hell for their sins. |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 1:49 AM Author: snowy lettuce Describe your path to law school and how despite your obvious intelligence you were unsuccessful in gaining admission to a top program. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20716135) |
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Date: May 18th, 2012 2:06 AM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend I'm not in law school. Most people on this board have advised against it, so if I applied, I'd keep their caveats in mind. My grades aren't good enough for a top program. But right now, I'd just prefer to work because I've been in school too long. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20716219) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 9:27 AM Author: indigo boltzmann i would say I'm still a "Christian" in that I think about God now and again and I believe there probably is a God.
my problem is that I'm just done with churches and churchgoers. part of it is the intolerable expansion of religion into secular life in recent years, and part of it is just that it's all so fake. so many people are there for business networking or to find a spouse, and few are there to actually just learn and worship.
i also think the Bible is a set of guidelines and stories, not a black letter lawbook.
my in-laws remain deep evangelicals who have anti-evolution books prominently displayed in their living rooms, pray loudly and obviously before every meal even at a fast food place, etc. i feel more distant from them, certainly, which is sad. they are good people. but their lives literally revolve around what's going on at church and that is just laughable to me. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:01 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state I'm the opposite. I realized around the age 11 or 12 that the doctrines were probably garbage/irrelevent, but that the community was worthwhile. I honestly truly cannot sense god. I view church as a social networking institution to be invaluable, but at the same time I just can't get myself to bother going now that I view it that way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743120) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:15 AM Author: fragrant brunch turdskin Have you tried to sense god? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743170) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:17 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state well, yes, I did. I couldn't sense anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743178) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:12 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state I was listening to catholic radio in the car the other day.
It is incredible how they were CONSTANTLY talking about pagan new age religion and how they saw it everywhere. It is a constant knocking down of straw men, and it breeds paranoia. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:23 AM Author: Multi-colored Locale i was raised in a religious family. i don't go to church anymore and don't read the bible on a regular basis, but i'm not an atheist. my parents are "educated" christians, and i was raised to believe in evolution, so i didn't encounter anything in college that made faith problematic.
for me, religion is about moral rather than scientific questions. comparatively, the bible spends way more time talking about ethics than science. obviously people love to poke holes in the bible's ethics, but atheists are on equally shaky grounds when trying to debate meta ethics.
if anything, i'm now a religious-leaning agnostic. except when i'm around annoying libs and atheists, when i prentend to be a full-blown christian. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:31 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state haaaaa, when you lose belief in metaphysical doctrines at least you can fall back on your appreciation for tradition and culture.
I can't really do that in regards to Christianity, lol. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:35 AM Author: Multi-colored Locale not sure what you mean by losing belief in "metaphysical doctrines," but plenty of christian denominations believe that evolution and the universe being more than 50000 years old are compatible with christianity.
sorry you believed in prole christianity, bro. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:38 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state It was prole Christianity indeed.
My church was full of people who would go to like university classrooms, not even biology classes, and they'd argue with the prof about god being left out of the curriculum. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:30 AM Author: Concupiscible Dingle Berry Native deism is the credited response. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743221) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 12:10 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend Maybe in the 18th century. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743584) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:32 AM Author: cyan boiling water market Do you feel better -- or worse -- about life? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743226) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:39 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state comparatively better. The 2nd coming stuff was terrible to impose on a young child. It might be the worst religious doctrine in existence.
at the same time, it wasn't like the religious upbringing was a solid foundation for adult life. In other words, I've failed pretty hardcore in life so far. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:40 AM Author: cyan boiling water market Did you ever ban people from your life who believed differently than you, and if so, would you want to try to reinvest in those possible friendships now that you don't have the evangelical barrier? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743257) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:42 AM Author: dashing genital piercing state I have other barriers. I never banned anyone for believing differently. I dropped religion around age 13-14, finalized at age 19. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743262) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 12:14 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend OP here. Better in some ways. Religious guilt is horrible, but there's something to be said for religious ecstasy. I still feel crippled in social interactions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743608) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 5:20 PM Author: dashing genital piercing state a lot of my social development was built on mocking religion.
But...when you leave a religious context, then that doesn't work anymore. Then you realize that you missed out on a lot of socializing activities that other non-fundie people got to enjoy: organized sports, holidays, etc. |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 10:34 AM Author: Concupiscible Dingle Berry Native I remember the biggest thing for me was just posing the question as to whether I actually believed. I never would because deep down I thought bad shit would happen to me like in the bible. when I finally did ask myself, it felt so bizarre, like a giant weight off my chest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743234) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2012 12:15 PM Author: zombie-like national security agency organic girlfriend The unpardonable sin... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1950871&forum_id=2#20743613) |