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Will patent lit associates just start being paid more?

it seems like since the AIA especially, the demand for paten...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
I don't know about 2 classes of lawyer at existing firms. I...
tantric kitchen patrolman
  04/23/13
i'm a mid-level and when i was in college as a stem and rese...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
same. I remember in 2005-2008 Patent lawyers were really in...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
i hear ya, but it's the same shit and nothing's fundamentall...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
the difference is that the number of cases being filed incre...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
these EE majors can just go to Irell/Susman/Boies or other f...
Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit
  04/23/13
The only way you get paid more is that you can get away with...
dark legend bbw
  04/23/13
harder to avoid work and blow off people if your practice gr...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
Maybe, but then you can easily lateral. So the cost of gett...
dark legend bbw
  04/23/13
then you have a year at the next place to blow off people be...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
you can probably lateral twice before this is a problem thou...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
correct. so 2 yrs at your first firm (you'll have more slack...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
I disagree with your assessment that you only have 1 year at...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
if you lateral to an ip group that's swamped, it's hard to b...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
this is probably true and the glitch in making this plan wor...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
yeah, that's been my pain point on this thread. seems lik...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
probably true. the key to success in patent law is probab...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
true, but easier said than done. how many big players aren't...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
Yeah but you can still avoid work. Plenty of firms have the...
dark legend bbw
  04/23/13
I dunno, the market is pretty good. I bet you could still f...
dark legend bbw
  04/23/13
I also think firms are fearful of canning IP associates righ...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
the issue isn't a low-billing associate who has low hours be...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
you can still avoid work without getting a reputation for it...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
also true. this goes back to a point that i've made many tim...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
how do people who avoid work and blow people off not got fir...
insanely creepy legal warrant
  04/23/13
but if you're trying to go to your 4th firm in 4-5 years, yo...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/23/13
I think this all comes down to how much "less work"...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
this. and if you're a patent associate who isn't necessar...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/23/13
I heard IP bonuses used to be a thing, I wonder if they will...
low-t field
  04/23/13
is this current bubble only for EE guys or any stem major
Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit
  04/23/13
CS/CE is the most in demand, EE is a close second... advance...
Frozen abode place of business
  04/24/13
Physics is reasonably high in demand also.
dark legend bbw
  04/24/13
CS/CE/EE >>>>>>>>>>>>>...
fiercely-loyal exhilarant toaster
  04/24/13
how about Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences
Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit
  04/24/13
safe so BIG SPACE LAW!
fiercely-loyal exhilarant toaster
  04/24/13
...
Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit
  04/24/13
we're splitting hairs tho. this may be true if you look at i...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/24/13
what if u havent done IP lit in years
Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit
  04/24/13
wtf have you been doing then?
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/24/13
brief writing/appeals at a V100 ttt
Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit
  04/24/13
i'm speculating, but i'd imagine if you have stem + any ip l...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/24/13
tbf, these firms are desperate to hire ANYBODY w a tech degr...
wonderful big-titted kitty cat
  04/24/13
this
fiercely-loyal exhilarant toaster
  04/24/13
How good is the lateral market for midlevels with extensive ...
bright address haunted graveyard
  04/27/13
Not great
dark legend bbw
  04/27/13
personal experience?
bright address haunted graveyard
  04/27/13


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Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:24 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

it seems like since the AIA especially, the demand for patent litigators, particularly with CS/EE, has increased exponentially and is rising each month as the total number of patent litigations increases and the supply of qualified patent litigators remains stagnant.

What is the solution? not pushing out patent people from BIGLAW? offering them more money and creating two classes of lawyers? Hiring "technical specialists" to assist litigators with no clue on patent law and technology???

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23061962)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:28 PM
Author: tantric kitchen patrolman

I don't know about 2 classes of lawyer at existing firms. I'd say maybe above market IP lit boutiques. They don't really need to pay associates more at existing firms, just make more of them partners.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23061985)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:40 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

i'm a mid-level and when i was in college as a stem and researching law school, it was the same story. patent people have always been in demand, but biglaw firms aren't going to start individually negotiating with junior associates to woo them in.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062052)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:47 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

same. I remember in 2005-2008 Patent lawyers were really in demand too. When we had events to meet BIGLAW lawyers and you had to fill out your "areas of interest" in a firm, almost ever single law student would put down "intellectual property" (even the vast majority of non-technical people).

However, it is legitimately different this time. The amount of patent work really has increased to absurd levels. There was always more demand than supply in general, but now the excess demand over supply is ridiculous and is getting worse by the day.

When a new position opens up in my market, you literally get 10 recruiter calls/e-mails about that position.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062092)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:51 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

i hear ya, but it's the same shit and nothing's fundamentally different. a 300 lb chick and a 400 lb chick are both obese.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062121)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:05 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

the difference is that the number of cases being filed increases pretty substantially every year, the number of patents issued does as well. so the long term trends show signs of stable growth.

at the same time, there are actually LESS American college students graduating from engineering programs nowadays and the foreign students who do these programs don't tend to go to law school here. So you have stable/increasing demand and at best steady supply.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062192)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 8:35 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit

these EE majors can just go to Irell/Susman/Boies or other firms that have enough IP lit and pay better than market

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062712)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:44 PM
Author: dark legend bbw

The only way you get paid more is that you can get away with doing less work with less fear of getting axed.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062076)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:46 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

harder to avoid work and blow off people if your practice group is swamped tho. it's moar likely you'll piss people off and get axed in that situation.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062083)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:47 PM
Author: dark legend bbw

Maybe, but then you can easily lateral. So the cost of getting axed is far lower than in other departments.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062087)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:48 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

then you have a year at the next place to blow off people before you get shitcanned again. you can't keep lateraling around w/o people getting suspicious there's something wrong with you.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062096)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:49 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

you can probably lateral twice before this is a problem though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062106)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:53 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

correct. so 2 yrs at your first firm (you'll have more slack as a junior) + 1 yr + 1 yr = you're still screwed as a 4th/5th yr.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062133)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:56 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

I disagree with your assessment that you only have 1 year at each new firm though, unless you're totally slacking off and doing jack shit. At a lot of BIGLAW firms, associates routinely bill 1600-1800 a year and don't get laid off. You'd have to be billing like 1000 at your new firm to get canned your first year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062153)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:58 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

if you lateral to an ip group that's swamped, it's hard to bill 1600 without pissing people off and actively avoiding shit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062170)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:03 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

this is probably true and the glitch in making this plan work. although sometimes patent groups are really busy and need to hire a bunch of people, then they slow down and they are no longer swamped. a lot of patent cases can keep people full time busy, but they can go away quickly if there is a stay or settlement.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062186)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:05 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

yeah, that's been my pain point on this thread.

seems like the patent groups that are always hiring are the ones that are understaffed and constantly swamped. also, they "need to hire a bunch of people," but they can't actually hire that many people because it's hard to find patent people, so they still end up underhiring.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062195)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:09 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

probably true.

the key to success in patent law is probably to find a firm that isn't swamped but is a big patent player and knows the market. this way you can get away with relatively low billing (like 1700-1900 for years on end) and they will never bug you about it because they know patent lawyers are in demand.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062208)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:14 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

true, but easier said than done. how many big players aren't swamped?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062223)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 9:05 PM
Author: dark legend bbw

Yeah but you can still avoid work. Plenty of firms have the "free market system" = license to slack.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062907)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:50 PM
Author: dark legend bbw

I dunno, the market is pretty good. I bet you could still find a landing spot for quite a while.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062113)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:54 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

I also think firms are fearful of canning IP associates right now, even if their patent groups are slow... they know it will pick up eventually and when it does they will have to spend a shit-ton on recruiters to get patent associates back, probably more than it would cost to just keep extremely low billing associates on for a year or two. And that's if they can even get new associates, good luck in this environment where there are 30 patent lit openings for every 1 qualified patent litigation mid-level who is actually looking to change firms.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062136)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:57 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

the issue isn't a low-billing associate who has low hours because the group is slow or because of the random nature of case assignments. rather, it's someone who has a reputation for avoiding work and blowing people off.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062161)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:00 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

you can still avoid work without getting a reputation for it. you just can't be outrageous about it. this is especially true for midlevels who can funnel a lot of work they don't want to do off to junior associates.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062178)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:09 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

also true. this goes back to a point that i've made many times on here-- getting shitcanned is more of a function of whether you're liked than any benchmark (hours, ratings in your reviews, how many deps you've done)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062207)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 7:30 PM
Author: insanely creepy legal warrant

how do people who avoid work and blow people off not got fired immediately?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062307)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:55 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

but if you're trying to go to your 4th firm in 4-5 years, you are just going to be red flagged no matter how good the market is.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062146)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:59 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

I think this all comes down to how much "less work" you are doing. You can be a low biller and survive for 3 or even 4 years, never meeting your hours. Most firms have some number where it is no longer worth it to keep an associate on full time given the expenses associated with that associate. This number is usually somewhere near 1200-1300 hours. Anything over that is pure profit for the partners. So you can probably continually bill 1500 and remain safe at the firm assuming no other major screw ups.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062171)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 6:49 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

this.

and if you're a patent associate who isn't necessarily on enough big cases, you can just kind of ride it out without looking for more work because they likely won't axe you knowing that work can come in any minute.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062100)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 8:13 PM
Author: low-t field

I heard IP bonuses used to be a thing, I wonder if they will return.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062602)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2013 8:58 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit

is this current bubble only for EE guys or any stem major

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23062856)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 12:40 PM
Author: Frozen abode place of business

CS/CE is the most in demand, EE is a close second... advanced pharma degrees are pretty hot too... everything else is meh. people with ME will be sought after mostly because they do patent work, not because of their degree.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23066531)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 12:42 PM
Author: dark legend bbw

Physics is reasonably high in demand also.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23066539)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:21 PM
Author: fiercely-loyal exhilarant toaster

CS/CE/EE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Advanced Bio >>>>> Physics >>>> ME >>>> BA in Bio/Chem

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070082)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:29 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit

how about Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070192)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:30 PM
Author: fiercely-loyal exhilarant toaster

safe so BIG SPACE LAW!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070201)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:41 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070314)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:33 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

we're splitting hairs tho. this may be true if you look at it under a microscope, but in plain sight, any firm would be desperate to snag even the undergrad bio dood.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070235)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:41 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit

what if u havent done IP lit in years

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070318)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:46 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

wtf have you been doing then?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070374)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:52 PM
Author: Razzle-dazzle confused orchestra pit

brief writing/appeals at a V100 ttt

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070436)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:55 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

i'm speculating, but i'd imagine if you have stem + any ip lit experience, a firm will be happy to use you on ip lit cases. you surely could function as a competent 3rd/4th yr associate on a patent case, right? the might try to jew you out of a few class years so they pay you less, though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070466)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:27 PM
Author: wonderful big-titted kitty cat

tbf, these firms are desperate to hire ANYBODY w a tech degree. firms would obviously prefer the ee/cs people, but it's like how a guy would prefer to bang a 9.5 and would still be thrilled to bang a 8.5, but is most likely not banging either the 9.5 or the 8.5.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070161)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2013 9:29 PM
Author: fiercely-loyal exhilarant toaster

this

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23070196)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 27th, 2013 2:00 PM
Author: bright address haunted graveyard

How good is the lateral market for midlevels with extensive biglaw patent lit experience but no tech degree?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23088772)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 27th, 2013 2:06 PM
Author: dark legend bbw

Not great

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23088805)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 27th, 2013 2:07 PM
Author: bright address haunted graveyard

personal experience?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2238118&forum_id=2#23088808)