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if capital punishment isn't used in a case like Ariel Castro,
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Date: May 11th, 2013 12:59 PM Author: slate doctorate it should never be used.
3 (perhaps 4, counting the girl) victims doubling as witnesses that can independently verify all of the acts.
Dude clearly has no purpose to society.
give me one credible, non-religious argument against execution in a case like this |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:00 PM Author: Maroon telephone There are worse things than death. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176928) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:05 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay im not sure this is a conventional view (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176945) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:13 PM Author: Maroon telephone But it's credible and non-religious.
I saw Bill O'Reilly argue that a life of extreme hard labor would be better retribution for the worst of the worst, actually. |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:19 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay yes but the single greatest hurdle to capital punishment is wrongful death concerns which are absolutely 100% obliterated in this case (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176990) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:25 PM Author: Maroon telephone You might need to clarify what you're looking for in this thread, then. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177010) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 3:58 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay if the best you got is that we shouldn't execute our own citizens, I guess not much can be said (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177601) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:02 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke what's your argument *for* the death penalty in this case? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177633) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:04 PM Author: slate doctorate (1) undisputed and verifiable he committed countless acts of rape, abuse
(2) he offers no hope of reform or contribution to society
(3) putting him up in a cell and feeding him, caring to his illness will cost 40k/year till his death -- seems like a senseless use of government funds
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:08 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke (1) that's not a justification for execution. maybe there's one implicit somewhere, but what you wrote is just a statement of facts. you need to be explicit in justifying this extraordinary action by the state. (2) he had a job... he could 'contribute' something as a prison laborer (3) just because it's almost completely clear in this case that he did it, that doesn't mean he doesn't get to exhaust his appeals. a capital case is more expensive than feeding him. no mainstream person would support a move to cheaper Chinese-style summary trials and executions |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:15 PM Author: slate doctorate (1) yes, it is. our society allows for capital punishment for heinous acts, though perhaps arbitrarily cabined at aggravated murder. no one would dispute that this dude committed acts which rise to the level of heinousness contemplated by a garden variety 1st degree murder.
(2) You're joking right -- you'd allow someone that ran a makeshift dungeon in his home keep a 40k job?
(3) What I am saying is that in a case like this there should be no appeals. There are not going to be evidentiary errors. There is no "process" to preserve. Four people are going to be able to independently verify each and every capital crime |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:25 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke (1) You're justifying it by saying it's already done. An appeal to normative behavior isn't a good argument. (2) In federal prisons, felons are made to work. They don't make anything near $40k -- more like 10 cents an hour to be spent at the commissary. the benefit to society of their labor is much more than that (3) So above you make an appeal to normative behavior to justify death penalty, but now you're arguing for something that our society and our constitutional right to due process don't allow. You are a pretty confused individual. |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 5:25 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay in (1) you tell me I can't appeal to normative, but when I shuffle that principle in (3), you tell me I can't argue against what the Constitution guarantees.
And, yes, in a case like this where this no room for evidentiary error, I am arguing against the procedural due process guarantee of appeal. |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 5:27 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke Yeah, that's the point, your argument is wholly inconsistent and confused. Either (1) or (3) goes. Without one or the other, your whole argument falls apart. The burden is on you to make a consistent and compelling argument here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23178221) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 5:32 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay The fact that we should relax the Constitution does not imply that I cannot make normative arguments. In fact, arguing that the Constitution "should" be relaxed is itself normative. Who is confused here, brother? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23178269) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:09 PM Author: slate doctorate Sorry bros I was wrong! it's 60k!
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-57418495/the-cost-of-a-nation-of-incarceration/
but sure, let's starve government discretionary funding to entitlement programs because moral hazard blah blah blah (xo conventional wisdom) |
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Date: May 12th, 2013 4:38 PM Author: aromatic parlour pisswyrm LOL @ a "life of extreme hard labor". Prison is great for murderers, they get free meals, flat screen TVs, exercise, and other murdering pals. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184253) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:08 PM Author: Passionate Cream Stain the latin kings will probably protect his ass in prison just because of his last name. fry this asshole (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176956) |
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Date: May 12th, 2013 1:54 PM Author: duck-like blood rage i imagine it's already been said. but jail for life is way way way worse than an easy death. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23183159) |
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Date: May 12th, 2013 4:40 PM Author: aromatic parlour pisswyrm LOL this is only true for soft beta weaklings who would be raped to death on day one. For a hardened criminal, prison is great. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184278) |
Date: May 11th, 2013 1:06 PM Author: Low-t nursing home puppy Murder is never justified as a first principle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176946) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:09 PM Author: Bossy Feces (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176961) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:11 PM Author: Maroon telephone Question-begging; if the execution is justified, then it's not murder. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176967) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:20 PM Author: Low-t nursing home puppy The state should never take the lives of its citizenry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176994) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:24 PM Author: Maroon telephone A police officer can't take down an active shooter? [Not an argument for CP, but a counter-example to your claim.] |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:02 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke The state should never take the lives of its citizenry except in situations of immediate danger to the lives of others. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177624) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:06 PM Author: bearded contagious church building cr; not gonna stand outside this guy's execution with picket signs protesting, but execution should just be understood to be a thing the government isn't supposed to do (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177655) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:07 PM Author: slate doctorate and why? what is the non-moral reason? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177659) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:08 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke what is the non-moral reason for executing people?
there isn't one. you think rape and murder are wrong, and he should be punished for it. it all boils down to your sense of revenge and some vague primate principles of 'justice'...just morality by a different name. |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:16 PM Author: slate doctorate don't you think we can frame heinousness agnostically? like that a peaceful, civil society cannot exist if people are killing one another? social contract theory (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177720) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:26 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke Uh, the conclusions to be drawn from consistently applying this principle aren't the ones you're looking for. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177793) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:18 PM Author: bearded contagious church building no, it's about restricting the realm of permissible state action. We (should) only put people in prison in order to protect society and to try to rehabilitate those for whom it's possible. Vengeance is not a legitimate state action. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177730) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:18 PM Author: slate doctorate why? can't the state have moral opporbrium? (legitimately?) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177734) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:22 PM Author: bearded contagious church building nobody's continued existence can cause ongoing harm, so execution is not justifiable. That state is not a parent, their role is not to judge our conduct. Prison is (legitimately) only for protection and rehabilitation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177761) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:23 PM Author: Lavender stag film azn You are assuming a lot here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177768) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:28 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke as is anyone who has a stake in this argument.
but yeah, to make things explicit, it comes down to whether you think the state's role is revenge or keeping its citizenry safe (except for the argument that the death penalty is a deterrent, which i don't lend much credence) |
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Date: May 12th, 2013 4:43 PM Author: aromatic parlour pisswyrm We can do both. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184296) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:19 PM Author: bearded contagious church building also, the way you're using "moral" it basically means "thinking that some actions are better than others". In that way, all choices are moral. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177738) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:07 PM Author: Effete glittery candlestick maker jap I guess some people want to reserve the death penalty for those who have actually taken someone's life. Some people think that murder is the worst crime and the death penalty should be reserved for that. Punishment fitting the crime and all of that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176951) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:11 PM Author: Passionate Cream Stain what this guy did is arguably worse than shooting some random fuck in the head (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176965) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:19 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay i agree 100% but i'm not even sure how you "prove" this kind of a claim. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176988) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:20 PM Author: Effete glittery candlestick maker jap Do you think what this guy did is worse than what Jodi Arias did?
What this guy did was beyond horrible, but the girls are happy and alive right now. They have gone through a horrible ordeal, but they are alive. |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:24 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay (weird liberal flame) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177008) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:03 PM Author: Domesticated vibrant yarmulke then there are worse punishments for him than euthanizing him, no?
(working here from the premise, which you seem to accept, that there are worse fates than the painless death someone gets from getting shot or being executed) |
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Date: May 12th, 2013 4:41 PM Author: aromatic parlour pisswyrm Bring back the chair. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184284) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:23 PM Author: motley range He took multiple lives when he forced Michelle Knight's miscarriages. That is punishable as aggravated murder in Ohio. HTH.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903 |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 3:58 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay this might be the best hook (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177603) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:22 PM Author: Lavender stag film azn If that gets him executed, do you think NARAL would be MAF? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177762) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 1:08 PM Author: hateful boiling water national yeah i don't know why to fix the whole "wrongfully executed" thing we don't just raise the standard of certainty to absolute. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23176953) |
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Date: May 12th, 2013 4:39 PM Author: aromatic parlour pisswyrm Because there's no such thing as absolute certainty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23184268) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 2:53 PM Author: sapphire marketing idea lay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177289) |
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Date: May 11th, 2013 4:27 PM Author: Saffron mischievous sandwich school If it wasn't for killing that baby he'd only have a kidnapping and rape charge. LOL @ soft on crime shitlibs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2253189&forum_id=2#23177799) |