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Choosing Biglaw SA
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Date: August 17th, 2017 3:52 PM Author: Onyx office Should I just choose the most prestigious firm? Do firms like cravath or the other v5 firms provide associates with an easier time lateraling or going inhouse? Is there really any difference between firms in terms of the amount of work or responsiveness that's required? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012521) |
Date: August 17th, 2017 3:54 PM Author: concupiscible tripping toaster corporate or lit? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012536) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 3:55 PM Author: Onyx office Corporate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012540) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:09 PM Author: concupiscible tripping toaster If corporate, go to the highest Vault ranked firm you get an offer from, provided that you didn't hate anyone you interviewed with. It'll be easier to go in-house from there or you can lateral down the chain. Only caveat is that some firms have a shitty rotation system for corporate people so make sure you can actually develop a specialty within 3 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012659) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:16 PM Author: fragrant azure school This is wrong for in house. In house does not care about prestige. They care about experience and connections. They will easily take a K&L gates associate with tons of hedge fund experience over v5 m&a associate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012710) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:20 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band with equal experience, the more prestigious firm may have more connections and/or a better in-house pipeline. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012744) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:31 PM Author: concupiscible tripping toaster THIS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012866) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 5:32 PM Author: fragrant azure school There is no such thing as equal experience since different firms are known for different practice groups. For instance, go to Simpson if you want to go in house into a huge private equity firm but if you want mid-market PE, you go to Latham or Kirkland. if you want to do hedge funds, you're looking at a place like Schultz Roth over the entire v50. If you want to do tech transactions or VC work, I assume you don't even want a NY firm. Unless you're doing m&a or capital markets where prestige of the firm generally tracks the prestige of the practice area, you're not going to find "equal experience" at 2 different firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013307) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 6:23 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band you're basically saying you cant find "equal experience" at 2 different firms bc each practice area has 1 or 2 dominant firms.
this ignores all the associates at those firms doing other practices, or doing those practices at other firms, or at other firms doing other practices. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 7:56 PM Author: Vigorous Plaza You can get equal experience at the firms, but what Nutella is talking about is that for in-house you're normally interviewing for a specialized area (not some general corporate position) so your firm's prestige/reputation w/r/t that specialized area is important, i.e., specialized area >>> vault ranking when interviewing for inhouse. So, like, you've probably never heard of Seward & Kissel, but if you're doing fund work they are about as good as any other shop.
Once you go in-house, attorneys don't want to train someone from the ground up. Sure, there is some leeway, but not much. They'll figure, shit I can get a K&E associate but then I'd have to train them to do X type of work, and what if they hate it. Ohh fuck it, I'll just go with Firm Y that is known for it b/c the fucker already knows the basics and likes it enough to practice in that area.
I'm training a junior attorney that we copped straight out of LS. And, it's been a real pain in the ass. My boss just says, "CC Special, you can help him right? Work with him." Fuck me. I can see that his eyes glaze over when I talk about various fed regs.
Edit: But if you don't know what the fuck you want to do, it's generally a safe bet to go with the highest rank firm that you can somewhat tolerate (e.g., location, etc.) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 7:59 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band you and nutella basically both seem to be saying that you can only go in-house in corp if your specialized practice area is #1 or #2 in its little niche. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014237) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 8:08 PM Author: Vigorous Plaza No you can, but what you do at your firm will determine which in-house gig you get. The problem is that your practice area may not be as prestigious as the overall firm. so, I know lil about Lit but stabbing in the dark here. I bet some IP atty from Knobbe Martins/Fish & Richardson is prbly >>> IP lit atty at Gisbon Dunn for IP. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014286) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 8:12 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band my point is that there are lots of people in corp biglaw not doing what their firm's niche specialty is. there are people at schulte not doing hedge fund shit. are you basically saying all these people are screwed for in-house? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014308) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 8:20 PM Author: Vigorous Plaza No, you can get an inhouse gig, but don't expect the prestige of the firm to trump someone from a lower ranked firm working in a more prestigious dept. Most of in-house hiring comes down to personality, experience and fit.
Edit: I think I get your point. U'll get the same training, but the fields will be different. All things considered, if you don't know what you're going to do, just go with the higher ranked firm because it'll likely be either good or excellent in everything. Lower ranked firms can be excellent in some things but absolute shit in others. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:23 PM Author: fragrant azure school Not all screwed, but the niche people get the best jobs, regardless of firm ranking. Also the more prestigious the firm, the more they do big m&a and other huge deals and financings, which often have the least relevance in house. Unfortunately law students have no idea about this going into OCI, so I would always ask them what their goal is ultimately and pick the firm based on practice area/group, not vault ranking. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014839) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:25 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band so why not do it the other way -- go to the most prestigious firm possible and then pick the firm's most noteworthy niche practice area (assuming you can avoid BIGDEAL)?
if 1Ls have no fucking clue what niche practice area they want to end up in, they should just go into whatever is the best one at the firm they end up at. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:34 PM Author: fragrant azure school My info is dated but the top firms have mostly generalist corporate practices or rotations and you cant just do "corporate transactions" or "fund formation" or whatever and they basically force you to do big deals since they need bodies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014931) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:37 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band ah, then that's the nut of it. makes sense (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014949) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 8:13 PM Author: turquoise exhilarant space For in-house lit positions it's more like: corpmo willing to learn lit >>>>> litmo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014319) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 7:05 PM Author: Vibrant temple filthpig Also cr, but in-house hiring is often retarded (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013939) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 8:10 PM Author: Orange Area Jewess I am LOLing over here at the idea of some 23 year old knowing they want to go in house at a "mid-market PE" as a 1L pre-OCI, just lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014298) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 7:04 PM Author: Vibrant temple filthpig Cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013929) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 3:55 PM Author: Vigorous Plaza Prestige firm does matter to a certain extent, but if you're looking at V10s, then you can prbly just pick anyone and be fine. You may want to focus on practice group/ranking, which will be more important once you look going inhouse. I know some firms do a rotation system, which kinda sets you back a bit.
Going in-house will depend a lot on experience and personality. I'd rather take someone from a lower ranked firm that has relevant experience and a decent personality than some douche with so-so experience from a V5. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 3:58 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band >>Should I just choose the most prestigious firm?
yes, unless one is known as a particular hellhole
>>Do firms like cravath or the other v5 firms provide associates with an easier time lateraling or going inhouse?
#5 v #6, no. there isnt some magical v5 cutuff.
v5 vs. shitty biglaw, yes.
>>Is there really any difference between firms in terms of the amount of work or responsiveness that's required?
all this will be heavily dependent on who you end up working for. absolutely no way to predict. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:03 PM Author: high-end macaca (Simpson ThaTTTcher associate) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012616) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:04 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band ljl i was waiting for that (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012625) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:40 PM Author: Onyx office (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012953) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:01 PM Author: high-end macaca Going to a top ranked firm will really help your long term career prospects (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012597) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:04 PM Author: Dun dashing shitlib knife prestige > allelse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012622) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:13 PM Author: Slate associate pocket flask Hours will be shit no matter what. Exception to this is when your firm doesn't have enough work and you will be stressed about trying to get more work. There may be unicorns out there that are truly different, idk. And I suppose there are legendary sweatshops that might be worse... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012688) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:15 PM Author: jet-lagged amber field brethren What offers do you have bro? I've narrowed it down to 3, we should compare notes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012700) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:16 PM Author: Cowardly medicated native have you learned nothing? prestige is your oxygen--until you have it in abundance, nothing else matters (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012709) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:45 PM Author: Onyx office Thanks for the responses (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34012991) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:48 PM Author: jet-lagged amber field brethren What offers you got bro? I have pw, Simpson and skadden (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013022) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:50 PM Author: Onyx office v5 on down like you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013042) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 4:51 PM Author: jet-lagged amber field brethren How many? I narrowed it down to those three but I had a lot more I had to reject (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013055) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 5:39 PM Author: appetizing tan azn faggotry Get the highest Vault offer you can. Then leverage that offer to improve your spot at a lower ranked firm. With the right initial offer and negotiating skills you could turn a standard V5 job into a V20 job plus class year bump, signing bonus, choice of partner mentor, etc. Biglaw is very entrepreneurial. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you just take what you're offered. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013334) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 6:59 PM Author: Onyx office Lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013903) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 7:06 PM Author: Vibrant temple filthpig Lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013943) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 6:42 PM Author: Cracking Gas Station Candlestick Maker Do banking (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013800) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 6:59 PM Author: Onyx office I shouldve (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34013905) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 7:50 PM Author: turquoise exhilarant space If you are at a good school (hys), spend the entire year doing case interviews and hit up mb at 3L oci. it is your best shot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014191) |
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Date: August 19th, 2017 10:09 PM Author: Onyx office Might do this tbh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34028432) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:03 PM Author: primrose sanctuary milk dont go to a v5, unless its wachtell. qol is significantly worse at the top and you are not compensated for it. the amorphous idea of 'better exit options' isnt measurable and probably isnt much of a difference. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014662) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:11 PM Author: soul-stirring site he's not going to escape Skadden hours by going to Jones Day or Proskauer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014724) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:12 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band this is toxic xo 2005 flame.
QOL is often worse at shitty biglaw. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:16 PM Author: rose really tough guy nibblets cr. BIGSECONDARY is, however, the credited move (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014764) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:19 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band not sure what BIGSECONDARY is, but it's also toxic xo 2005 flame to think "midlaw" has better QOL than biglaw.
what do oyu mean? |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:22 PM Author: rose really tough guy nibblets large office (not that sub-25-person satellite shit) of a market-paying v100 in e.g. dallas seattle atlanta (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014822) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:23 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band oh yeah in that case BIGSECONDARY is pretty cr. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014833) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:24 PM Author: rose really tough guy nibblets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014842) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:28 PM Author: insanely creepy house Most midlaw places certainly have better QOL than t20 biglaw....mostly because the clients are less insane and the deals are less important. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014883) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:30 PM Author: blathering provocative chapel elastic band some, sure. you need to really do your homework tho.
most midlaw is just shitlaw plus. better hours on paper, but harder to pad, partners making you cut your own time, shittier support staff, etc. |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:33 PM Author: insanely creepy house I guess. Hasn't been my experience switching from t10 biglaw to midlaw.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014921) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:30 PM Author: primrose sanctuary milk Agree with this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014902) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:19 PM Author: soul-stirring site BIGSECONDARY bro here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014796) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:22 PM Author: rose really tough guy nibblets knew that my poast would summon you. how's it been so far bruh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014825) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:24 PM Author: soul-stirring site 180, I don't work past 6-7 and my practice group is chill as fuck. They told me that 1,600 is a good target. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014846) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:25 PM Author: rose really tough guy nibblets jfc at what level do they give bonuses? 2k? I've never heard of a firm endorsing a target of 1600 lmao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014860) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:27 PM Author: soul-stirring site Bonus system is a black box, my practice group is T&E (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014874) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:29 PM Author: rose really tough guy nibblets damn are you an rule against perpetuities MASTERMAN? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014889) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:33 PM Author: soul-stirring site don't want to get into it too much but my note was on T&E
edit: also RAP is flame because most states have abrogated c/l RAP, also one bad part is realizing how poor you are and how rich you will never be compared to your clients |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 10:28 PM Author: Adventurous plum theatre idea he suggested Thoughts on Paul Weiss or Simpson DC? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34015411) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:30 PM Author: primrose sanctuary milk Depends on who you work for. You can guarantee life at v5 will be hellish. A v20 or so may or may not be, depending on who your team is (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014896) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 9:35 PM Author: soul-stirring site the guy at the v5 is going to have significantly better exit ops for a job with actual qol, particularly corpbros (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34014935) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 10:28 PM Author: primrose sanctuary milk this isnt really that big of an effect, at least ime (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34015407) |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 10:27 PM Author: Adventurous plum theatre idea he suggested NYC litigation ranking?
PW, DPW, &c? |
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Date: August 17th, 2017 10:28 PM Author: turquoise exhilarant space Anywhere that lets you float as a summer and end up in corp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3704162&forum_id=2#34015410) |