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How much does inhouse title/duties matter
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:21 PM Author: Startled white pistol Job A: low level associate GC, low-level commercial contract duties, pays a little more Job B: senior counsel, m&a/transactional, pays a little less
1. Crazy to pick B over A? You hear inhouse people complain about flat structures and unclear advancement opportunities... 2. Once people go inhouse do you ever see them change sectors? |
Date: September 12th, 2017 6:32 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza Titles in-house, especially at smaller places, are taken with a grain of salt. You can have some 29 year old have a fancy title that does jack shit and gets paid $90k/year.
Generally, the stuff people really care about is actual work experience in the area they are hiring for. |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:45 PM Author: Startled white pistol Thanks. But could you conceive of taking B if it was better experience at a similar sized employer? I've heard that last piece before so I want to be able to claim some actual skills (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195690) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:50 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza Definitely. I'm in a specialty area and we'd never take a generalist that was more senior "with some experience" in our area over someone with direct experience doing what we want. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195734) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:42 PM Author: jet-lagged chapel id take job A
job B further pigeonholes you, and for less pay |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:44 PM Author: pungent lemon heaven associate Agree with this. Generalist and "Commercial" roles are the best way to set yourself up for your second inhouse job. Specialist jobs are way harder to find. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195682) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:48 PM Author: Startled white pistol Thanks to you both. So your view is commercial contracts >>> commercial transactions/bd? CC is probably a better lifestyle but I would think less upside (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195716) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:50 PM Author: jet-lagged chapel what's the difference between commercial contracts and commercial transactions? i am the "commercial" guy in my dept and negotiate everything that comes in, work with the BD guys, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195727) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:52 PM Author: Startled white pistol CC is like more day to day high volume stuff. CT is bigger deals/JVs/acquisitions/etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195743) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:57 PM Author: jet-lagged chapel if that's the case I would do CT. Weird that you call that your "niche" as anybody else would consider that generalist/standard M&A background stuff but to your point not as commodified as looking at IT contracts all day (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195780) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:00 PM Author: Startled white pistol Fair point. As a general corp/m&a guy we are the QB etc. And yeah idk what CC would be entirely--probably some IT contracts, procurement, some other high volume stuff specific to the business, etc. But who cares if it pays more and presumably has more regular hours anyway? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195806) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:02 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza Don't forget customer side contracts if you're in the enterprise/gov space. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195820) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:10 PM Author: jet-lagged chapel how much more? I do a mix of CC and CT and CC is soul-sucking commodity work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195891) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:17 PM Author: Startled white pistol $15k gross. Honestly, I'm a deal guy and would want to elbow my way in to that group eventually. But...after years of being a deal guy, it also sounds nice to work a 9 to 5 doing commodity work...and if I want to do deals, hopefully people would let me based on the law firm experience (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195950) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:20 PM Author: jet-lagged chapel why do you have the impression the hours will be better? "deals" inhouse dont mean the same thing they do inside a law firm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195967) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:24 PM Author: Startled white pistol From the interviews. Both of them are way more chill than law firm m&a, but the deals job has some international stuff so I'd expect poorly timed calls at least occasionally. On the CC job, it was clear that the CT people would sometimes do night calls from home etc while the CC people just told me what time they liked to show up and leave (and didn't work from home). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195990) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:30 PM Author: stirring awkward center Is CC job A? If that's the case, I'd go job B. CC is boring and low level routine contracts even if they cover various areas. When I read generalist, I thought you meant all legal matters from all contracts and transactions to tax to employment to ERISA to litigation to financial audit etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196026) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:34 PM Author: Startled white pistol Yes--job A is CC. Ty again--I should have been clearer. It does sound like there would be some ability to gain institutional knowledge about the org, but it does sound more boring and low-level. But maybe all the gaining skills and rigor is flame and I should just take the money and the better hours (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196063) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:38 PM Author: stirring awkward center You will gain far more knowledge about your company doing deals as you're dealing with valuations, business strategy etc than looking at contracts for cyber security vendors or whatever other contracts come through. $15k is not much. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196098) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:30 PM Author: jet-lagged chapel shit that makes it a tough call as you'll likely have way more autonomy with CC, being in the drivers seat. IME, product, marketing, etc will defer to legal as the final word. You can check out and coast doing easy work with little oversight-- but it's boring.
With CT, the work is more varied and negotiated whole cloth but the downside is that BD guys tend to be more invested in making the deal happen at any cost so they can rattle off achievements at their next review and accordingly treat legal as scribes. |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:21 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza I've done CC and CT based on my subject matter area.
A) At least in large places, the CC and CT (M&A and such) people are in totally different groups. I've never seen CC people work on CT work.
B) I've done a few early/late CC calls/meeting on mega-deals. For large CT transactions, it is that PLUS a bunch of weekend calls. |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:44 PM Author: pungent lemon heaven associate A rough rule of thumb is that every title in a smaller department/at a company with an order of magnitude less revenue is a step higher than at a bigger company/department. Advancement inhouse is at least 50% luck and battlefield attrition, but if you're regarded as a top performer they will find a way to make it happen for you. If you're not in the top 20% but are in the top 50% of the GC staff's stack ranking you're essentially waiting for a battlefield promotion, which can happen because your boss is a rock star and they want to find a way to promote your boss. If you're in the bottom 50% you have to get a battlefield promotion and avoid management trying to snake it from you to give to someone they like better. If you're in the bottom 20% every year you'll eventually get fired. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195675) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:50 PM Author: Startled white pistol inhouse fires people regularly? Absolutely it sounds like the play is get your foot in the door a place you want to be and hope some people leave. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195731) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:53 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza Depends entirely on where you work. Some places never fire without good cause, some places have firing built in, some places are in cost cutting mode so they're firing across the board. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195748) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:50 PM Author: stirring awkward center Generalist > niche experience always if your goal is eventually be in a senior role/GC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195733) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:54 PM Author: Startled white pistol Ty. Even if the niche is BD/acquisitions/etc? Pigeonholed maybe, but it's a high profile niche (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195759) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:07 PM Author: stirring awkward center If you want the widest variety of options open to you for another job or promotion internally, you need to basically understand every aspect of the business, not just a specialized area. A generalist means you're not really providing legal expertise on one area but rather helping manage and run all the legal aspects of the business. This makes you harder to replace, since your institutional knowledge is deeper than someone specialized. Also, go to a smaller company with fewer lawyers. Private companies over public. Fewer lawyers = more chance to get better experience. Titles do not matter. Better experience make you more valuable in the long run for both internal promotions and outside jobs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195868) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:58 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza GC - agreed.
"Senior role" - except, there are a bunch of senior roles reserved for specialists. While there are more "generalist" senior roles, the competition is much greater too. |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 9:36 PM Author: pungent lemon heaven associate CR, though there are also paths where people move back and forth from generalist to specialist, and that actually is often the fastest path to exec and to being a useful specialist. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196852) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:55 PM Author: Azure Provocative Deer Antler School have u um considered doing the job you would like more (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195764) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 6:56 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza vat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195775) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:03 PM Author: Startled white pistol Absolutely. But if I'd been able to answer the question that easily I wouldn't ask a message board full of degenerates (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34195827) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:24 PM Author: pearl principal's office coffee pot mean looking motherfucker next to you at the bar: parole officer's riding my ass cause i just got fired for failing a drug test. the womans freaking out over child support and now this asshole's telling me I need a new transmission. you?
you: flat structures and unclear advancement opportunities
mean looking motherfucker next to you at the bar: geez, pal. i thought i had it bad. |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:27 PM Author: Startled white pistol Totally fair. Happy to get the reality check (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196006) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:29 PM Author: pearl principal's office coffee pot take the money (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196017) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 7:30 PM Author: Ruby bearded plaza $15k gross isn't real money. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34196025) |
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Date: September 12th, 2017 9:14 PM Author: Transparent lodge halford What's your goal? Can you expand your duties (i.e., be able to take on new areas)? Which company has a better name? Which boss would ypu prefer to work for?
I started as a fund attorney but now work in a different area of the financial world and my boss and company are paying for me to attend cybersecurity seminars bc I expressed an interest and my boss is a great rabbi. Take the job where the boss or company has an interest in your development. Although, it is more about who is your boss than which company you work for. |
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Date: September 13th, 2017 12:50 AM Author: Startled white pistol Thank you. Good questions to think about and interesting to hear your story. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3729636&forum_id=2#34197874) |