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2nd to last day of my BIGLAW tour of duty; taking questions
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Date: June 1st, 2006 2:51 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole As of tomorrow, I'm done with BIGLAW, and law itself, permanently. I will have been here almost exactly two years when I walk out that door. As that leaves me with nothing "real" to do, I've decided to take questions on the whole experience. I'm at a branch office, and not NYC (though I'd prefer not to say which branch specifically), so keep that in mind as far as questions and answers go. WAY back in the day I frequented PR (1999-2000 or so) and would once a blue moon check back in both there and, later, here as well.
So, fire away; I offer nothing but brutal honesty. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:17 PM Author: exhilarant antidepressant drug private investor Why are you leaving? What kind of work are you going to be doing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888720) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:38 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole I'm leaving because, in the end, it just wasn't for me. I had some great times, but ultimately I need my challenges in a work environment to come from all directions, not just the time crunch front.
I'm applying to history PhD programs now, believe it or not. I had very little law school debt, no undergrad debt and have never been bad with credit cards, so I'm not financially married to the firm as I believe a great many of my coworkers are. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:43 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground this sounds like me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888824) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:06 PM Author: Primrose Karate Good-bye and good luck, man. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346235) |
Date: June 1st, 2006 3:23 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground was that your first law job or did you do something before biglaw? i plan on leaving biglaw after about 3 years or so and becoming a teacher, which is somethign that had thought about doing before going to law school.
do you get comments from friends/family telling you that you are wasting your law degree or that you should do something law related since you have the degree? |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:26 PM Author: sienna legend crackhouse so you went to ls for 3 years, just to work 3 years in biglaw and then do something totally different?
This is not an insult, just looking for an explanation. I'm just curious as to why you wouldn't go in house or seek a job at a small firm or something. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:41 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground I went to LS because my undergrad degree wasn't very useful and I didn't know what I wanted to do. It was a last minute decision to go to LS. Before going to LS, I knew absolutely nothing about law or being a lawyer. I don't think I even knew any lawyers. I didn't know what biglaw was, so I definitely did not go to LS to work in biglaw. I just did well in LS and figured that I might as well take a job that pays good money and save up. LS was cheap (less than $30k for all three years) so my loans will be paid off fairly quickly.
I have thought about going in house or looking for a small firm job, but I just don't really like the practice of law all that much. If I can find a good public interest law job, then I may take that, but my plan right now is to become a teacher down the road. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:43 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole This was my first job in the legal field, and it very much so appears as though it'll be my last. All of my family and friends are very supportive, but I think part of it has to do with the fact they have NO idea (at least I don't believe they do) as to the money I'm turning my back on. I "splurged" on a basic Nissan Altima when I first got out of college and, aside from that, have given NO indication whatsoever that I've made any sort of money during these two years. I moved in with a buddy from undergrad in the area who made maybe 45-55k and essentially lived the same lifestyle as did he. I do believe that if my family and friends knew that I was walking away from a fairly high salary AND if they also understood the risks and pitfalls of a PhD, it'd be a very different story. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888822) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:45 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business congrats. I'm officially done with biglaw (and law period) in 2 months. Unlike you though, I have mountains of debt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888832) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:47 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground Good luck to you! How long were you in biglaw?
Edit: what are you going to do now that you are leaving law altogether? |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:51 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business 3 years plus 1 year fed clerkship
getting my mba, do banking, make coin, pay off debt, do something else |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:12 PM Author: Crimson puppy how the hell did you last so long doing something you hated? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888972) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:19 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business 3 different firms
and xo helped |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:48 PM Author: Crimson puppy What will be your total debt tally after b-school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888853) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:50 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business conservatively, 200k. and that's only because I'll save money living at home
I may die in debt, but I'm willing to take that chance. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:51 PM Author: Crimson puppy no big whoop. if you need to do it, you just need to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888866) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:55 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business yeah,. I figure if I live with my mom for 2 years after b-school while doing banking I could save up around 250k and pay off my debt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888881) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:56 PM Author: Crimson puppy you are going to really to be a killer with the ladies living at your mom's place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888888) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:59 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business i am investing in the cumfiesta porn package and maybe take out a loan for a realdoll.
besides, I'm going to spend all my free time turning myself into a fighting machine in case the banking thing doesn't work out. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:00 PM Author: Crimson puppy you might be a little old for UFC. Look what happened to Gracie (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888910) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:01 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business yeah, but look at randy couture! it can be done. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888913) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:02 PM Author: Crimson puppy what type of money is in UFC? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888915) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:05 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business i think it's pretty bad except at the very highest levels. I think gracie got 1.5m for that beating. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888935) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 6:21 PM Author: Garnet Boiling Water no way you're making UFC by starting this late in your life...unless you have a martial arts background already. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889592) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 6:29 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business i have some martial arts training, but yeah, it's probably not going to happen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889628) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:06 PM Author: submissive out-of-control degenerate what gracie got was exceptional. matt hughes got $200K for that and he's a dominant fighter. randy and chuck got a $250-ish base for their last fight (as well as their 2nd) and a cut of the buys; they wound up realizing about $450-500 each.
other guys don't make nearly that much. the guys who are up and comers that weren't on TUF will be lucky to get a $10K purse.
guys like forrest griffin and diego sanchez get around $25K/fight. upper-level guys like Babalu only get money when they fight someone good - he's probably getting $60K for lidell and usually makes $35-40K. |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:07 PM Author: Primrose Karate A+ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346246) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:46 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground wow, you sound just like me. My husband and I live like we did when we were making 45k. I don't see the need to splurge for much, although we did buy a new TV for 2k, which is pretty crazy for me.
My family knows how much money I make and will know what kind of money I will be turning away, but I know they will be supportive when I leave biglaw.
Good luck to you! |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:49 PM Author: Crimson puppy where are you going? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888857) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:59 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground nowhere yet. I just graduated from LS last year, so I'm a first year associate. However, I am already planning my exit strategy. I want to be an elementary school teacher. So I am going to work for a few years here and then pursue that path. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888900) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:01 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business did you attend a T14? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888911) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:13 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground nope. My husband had a decent job, so I was limited to the two law schools in my state, neither of which are T14 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888973) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 6:15 AM Author: Translucent Dilemma States with two law schools: Utah, Arizona, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Colorado, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Maryland, Alabama, Mississippi, Connecticut. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5900060) |
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Date: August 4th, 2006 4:46 PM Author: ivory fat ankles market Connecticut has 3 law schools, not 2. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6378487) |
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Date: August 4th, 2006 4:49 PM Author: buck-toothed plum parlour whoooooooooooooooooooooooooo cares? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6378506) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:28 PM Author: sienna legend crackhouse what were the likes/dislikes of biglaw? Will you remain in the field of law? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888758) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:59 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole As you'll see from my list, most of the "likes" are, in effect, self-created perceptions, so not as authentic as the dislikes in a lot of regards.
LIKES: *I was the first in my family to go to college, and though my family had a good amount of money, it was made through classic blue collar means (my father eventually owned several laundromats; not exactly prestigious, but very lucrative). So my experience at Skadden - wearing the suit, high-powered meetings in huge conference rooms, even the business card - made me feel for the first time like I was a part of something important, misconceived as that perception may have been. I know I'll get torn apart by someone saying that "biglaw attorneys are just wage slaves" but for someone never having had any contact with the respected professional fields, it was, initially, a boost of sorts. *The people were, believe it or not, incredibly fun to be around. When I arrived at Skadden they gave us the whole "work hard/play hard" speech, but it turned out to be very true. Hell, even a number of partners (mostly the younger ones) became "friends" of a sort. Granted I wouldn't call them on a Saturday afternoon to see if they wanted to head out for the night, but more than a few times we'd make arrangements to play some pickup basketball together.
DISLIKES: *The lack of actual mental challenge was a huge detriment for me. There was PLENTY of challenge, but mostly it took the form of "can you get this done under huge time pressures." The task itself was never challenging, only the time constraints. We would often liken it to the idea of alphabetizing a record collection - something not in and of itself challenging - but being asked to do it under obscene time limits. That seemed to be the nature of a good deal of the work. Even as I moved along and started getting what were supposed to be more "interesting" assignments, they never quite materialized as what I was hoping for. *The nature of your schedule was obscenely unpredictable. I can handle long hours no problem - when we KNEW a deadline of some sort loomed on the horizon and KNEW we'd all be spending the next two weeks working 18 hour days, it was actually very tolerable. What was crippling was the 13 hour day or weekend work that came out of NOWHERE. I was once literally walking out the door at 8:00 pm on a Friday to go celebrate my gf's birthday when I was snagged by a senior and ended up spending the next four hours on a bullshit assignment while my gf sat in my office browsing the web. Additionally, I once went on a vacation WELL up into the woods and mountains where there were no resorts (pure roughing it) and thus no cell service or anything to that effect. Though it was only for two days, the senior I was working with made it clear that he felt it was bullshit I'd be somewhere unreachable for 48 hours, and it's not as if we had anything on the table, so to speak. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:04 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business do you feel like you picked up any valuable skills in your 2 years? I know that, as a litigator, I feel like I learned pretty much nothing other than civil procedure and motion practice, which aren't exactly marketable skills. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888931) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:09 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole Same here. I was in litigation and none of those skills or knowledges will translate unless I intend to do my dissertation on something incorporating legal theory, which I don't. However, I do feel like I learned a GREAT deal about how to tell demanding and often irrational people what they want to hear without being condescending or transparent in the process. I believe THAT will translate very well into anything I do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888956) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:20 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business that's an excellent skill. unfortunately, I'm still working on that one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889015) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:12 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground I learned how review docs. ;) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888968) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:15 PM Author: Fluffy roast beef hunting ground My biggest problem with my job is the unpredictable nature. I don't have a problem with the hours, but I would like to be able to plan a vacation (or even going out to dinner) and not have to worry up until the last minute that I will have to cancel it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888985) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:30 PM Author: Crimson puppy I just assume on the weekdays that I am not going out to dinner and that all plans before 8-9pm are flexible. That way I am never disappointed.
As for vacations, sometimes it is easier to not take them than to do all the work it takes to actually take one |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:41 PM Author: Sapphire mediation church building What were the worst aspects of the experience? How many hours on avg did you work, and what were the most brutal weeks? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888815) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:06 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole The worst experiences were by far the unexpected 6:00 pm ringing of the phone with a partner or senior's name flashing on the ID. As I mentioned above, herculean work weeks were not the problem, per se, it was when they'd come out of nowhere that it got to you.
The average work week was as most describe here: 9-7 or so more often than not, the ocassional 10-5 when things were slow and the random and not-so-random 8-11. The most brutal work weeks were BRUTAL, but, again I can't stress enough that they were never, NEVER quite as bad when you knew they were coming. That said, my worst stretch involved staying four straight nights at the office (literally sleeping in the lobby), flying to North Carolina and working 12-14 hour days there for four days and then coming back where I had one day to reload before doing another stretch of three straight days sleeping at the office and then following that up with about two weeks straight of coming in at 7:00 am and not leaving til 8:00 pm. The most surreal part about it was that this all happened at the peak of "leaf season" so it was literally as though I missed the entire fall and when I finally had a weekend off, it had gone from summer to winter. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:18 PM Author: Crimson puppy did you even take a shower? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889002) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 5:35 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole Yup. Our office actually had two or three showers (and cots as well) for just such instances. By our second or third day on the job, it was made clear to us that we should ALWAYS have a clean suit on "stand by" in our office at all times in the event that we pulled these consecutive all nighters and then had to randomly meet with clients in the midst of them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889376) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:21 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business this of course is to be expected at skadden. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889025) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:43 PM Author: Trip becky Dear Sirs,
Shortly, a young ragamuffin will come totting into this thread and begin insisting that you have received "the talk." I feel obligated to warn you that no protestation on your part will disabuse him of the notion that you have received "the talk," and, therefore, you should conserve your energy and simply allow him to post as he will.
I remain, as ever,
Very Truly Yours,
Melungeon |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:49 PM Author: Sapphire mediation church building Fortunately for us, "IPGunner" appears to have left the board for good. It's a pleasant experience to know he is gone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888859) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:52 PM Author: Trip becky Dear Sirs,
I have come to the conclusion that "IPGunner" and "Never Forget" are one and the same.
I remain, as ever,
Very Truly Yours,
Melungeon |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:47 PM Author: Aromatic Fanboi best things about biglaw
worst things |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:53 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business it's easier to list the best things, since the worst things would take all day to list
(1) a decent paycheck
(2) some really cool associates I've met and worked with
(3) interesting work every blue moon |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:55 PM Author: Crimson puppy just get started on a worst list then?
I will start for you:
1) you don't like the work
2) the paycheck isn't ridiculous
3) a guy you met at the club said he makes millions |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 3:57 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business I agree with points one and two. I don't care so much about 3 unless the guy is doing something I could be doing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888891) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 6:17 AM Author: Translucent Dilemma << I don't care so much about 3 unless the guy is doing something I could be doing. >>
He was running cosmetic dentistry outfits in several suburban strip malls. |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:04 PM Author: Glittery messiness What time do you usually leave the office? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888927) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 4:13 PM Author: startling multi-billionaire prole 7:00 was my "norm" but after getting my feet wet a little bit, I started coming in at 7:30 or 8:00 in the morning as opposed to the 9-10 window where most associates arrived. This way I could take longer lunches without worrying about making it up later into the night, and this broke up my day nicely. I only lived a few minutes away via public transportation or even walking if need be, so I never felt bad heading home at that time or even earlier, since there were more than a few times I'd come back when summoned without anyone knowing I was actually gone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5888975) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 6:19 AM Author: Translucent Dilemma Well done, you sneaky bastard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5900062) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 5:47 PM Author: Metal scourge upon the earth windowlicker It seems like all the stuff that bothered you is pretty exclusive to ten or twenty or so NY firms, and maybe one or two hard ass places in each of the other markets. Most firms don't have cots and don;t freak out if you take a 2 day campling trip. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889447) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 6:28 PM Author: Garnet Boiling Water a list needs to be made of the more relaxing firms that still pay a decent wage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889622) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 6:29 PM Author: Amethyst people who are hurt http://avery.ws/ai/shortest_hour_law_firms.html (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889631) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 6:20 AM Author: Translucent Dilemma Chapman and Cutler sounds like my kind of place. Sucks to be at Wachtell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5900063) |
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Date: June 17th, 2006 3:30 PM Author: House-broken lodge juggernaut dude, you're like a prophet - this just came out today - i saw it on another thread: http://www.avery.ws/ai/law_firms_happy_money_hours.html (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6007862) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 6:28 PM Author: Amethyst people who are hurt it'll be worth it when he gets that PhD in history and he can drop the V5 Skadden bomb on community college hiring commitees. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889627) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 6:22 AM Author: Translucent Dilemma I suggest inventing a gang sign-like way of flashing V5. Auto admit, baby. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5900064) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 8:29 PM Author: sepia location partner haha, "V5 Skadden bomb." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5902843) |
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Date: June 1st, 2006 6:30 PM Author: odious stubborn native place of business i think he probably just wants to be happy. most lawyers at any v100 aren't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5889637) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2006 7:41 PM Author: adventurous bistre halford death wish Great thread. Congrats on leaving. As a NY corporate lawyer, though, I'm baffled by the idea that the 12-14 hour days are the bad ones ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#5902547) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:05 PM Author: sinister gaping But corporate sounds so much more interesting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346222) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:08 PM Author: Big pit brethren Explain plz... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346262) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:15 PM Author: Glittery messiness are you an idiot? those are the averageq days. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346332) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 4:16 PM Author: sinister gaping Just in NY I hope. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346348) |
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Date: July 31st, 2006 3:57 PM Author: House-broken lodge juggernaut bumpers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6346149) |
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Date: August 4th, 2006 4:50 PM Author: Spectacular New Version Goal In Life How many hours/year did you bill? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=426082&forum_id=2#6378513) |