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Why are MBAs so much happier than JDs?
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:01 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268653) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:02 PM Author: slimy milk They aren't, at least not ~2 years after graduation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268659) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:03 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty They are if they're working at the right hedge fund, or in Corp Dev at google, or at McKinsey. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268676) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:11 PM Author: slimy milk if they are working at any of those jobs, they are working at least 80 hr weeks. You equate money with happiness, and that isn't a good equation.
I also don't get the McKinsey trolling on this board. It isn't that great of a job. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:17 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty NO, IDIOt. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. if you're working at the RIGHT fund, or you're trading or something, you won't be working 80 hrs/wk. same goes for mcK. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268831) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:16 PM Author: slimy milk Do you know anyone who works at any of those jobs? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305414) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:30 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty trading - obviously nowhere near 80 hrs/week
McKinsey = obviously nowhere near 80 hrs/week
any questions? |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:34 PM Author: slimy milk trading = in at 8, out at 6, no break. This assumes that you don't get stuck on a "Research assignment." The pay is basically comperable with Biglaw until you make MD, which almost no one does. Stress is ridiculous in trading because everything is on you to perform - while Biglaw is much less intense in comparison. Also, in trading you are required to go out "socializing" more which takes up a decent amount of your time, otherwise you are not a "team player." BIGLAW you are staying later nights, but no one gets in before 10, you can take a lunch, and your hours are generally less intense. Either job is fine depending on what you are interested in, but neither is that much better than the other.
McKinsey - are you on crack? Not only are you traveling 5 days out of 7, you work insane hours in exciting places like Flint, Michigan. And the pay isn't even that good - they all have to justify it by talking about "the great placement opportunities that come from the McK name!!!" only to realize later that is mostly a marketing scam. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:38 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty jesus christ, stfu. trading = in at 8, out at 6. end of story. that socializing stuff is bullshit, unless you're talking about inst sales, and even then - IT'S SOCIALIZING.
mckinsey = travelling constantly, but otherwise good hours. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:44 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner McK's hours aren't that good. People I know there don't have time to live, want out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305724) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:45 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty those people have never worked in biglaw or in an investment banking division. mkay? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305739) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner 60hpw + 90% travel feels like 80 or 90 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305759) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM Author: slimy milk precisely, and it can be more than 60HPW some weeks - which are absolutely killer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305769) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:48 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty the banking kids i know would kill for that kind of lifestyle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305772) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:49 PM Author: slimy milk We are talking about biglaw, not banking. Bankers also get paid more. McK get nothing much beyond the "prestige of the McK name!!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305787) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:52 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty okay, but this sub-thread was about whether or not MBAs are happy for the 2 yrs after graduation. at McKinsey, they have an easier life for those 2 years than their fellow biglaw associates.
i also forgot to mention all the fast-track upper mgmt F500 jobs that fresh Harvard MBAs get. i think it's not too much of a strecth to say that they are happier than biglaw 1st and 2nd yr associates. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:54 PM Author: slimy milk "they have an easier life for those 2 years than their fellow biglaw associates"
No, they don't. They may have an easier life than Bankers, but they aren't being paid as much. As we've outlined twice for you, neither McK nor traders have a better life than biglaw, and they get paid about the same. If you find one more interesting than the other, fine. But the hours and pay are similar. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:56 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty traders do not fucking work weekends. they go home at like 6 in the afternoon. don't give me this shit about S&T hours being worse than biglaw, and don't try to convince yousrelf that biglaw hours are better than ibanking. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305864) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:03 PM Author: slimy milk You keep harping on the fact that they leave at 6 in the afternoon, but you seem to forget that they show up at 8 am, whereas lawyers show up at 10 am (at the earliest) and that you can take a lunch as a lawyer. like I said before, do you know anyone in these jobs?
As far as ibanking, the hours are better in biglaw, especially if you do anything other than M&A. You have bad stretches, but they aren't nearly as bad as ibanking and the pressure also isn't nearly as bad. Also, when you start comparing the comp by age between ibankers and biglawyers (assuming no non-trad grads) - it actually isn't THAT different considering ibankers generally had to have w/e and therefore are a few years older.
Go get some ibanking friends at one of the top banks and see what they tell you if you don't believe me. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:50 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner not at McK's pay. or if they did switch, they'd wish they hadn't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305800) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:55 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty it's not about pay at the junior level. yes, ibanking kids are greedy as fuck, but the main goal is to eventually be a partner at a hedge fund or a buyout fund or high up in a corporation.
main reason they would not switch to McKinsey jobs is that you don't learn shit, it's really petty work, and the exit opps aren't as impressive or abundant. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:58 PM Author: slimy milk "yes, ibanking kids are greedy as fuck, but the main goal is to eventually be a partner at a hedge fund or a buyout fund or high up in a corporation"
Obviously these opportunities exist, but you have to work your ass off to get there and while you are there, and you have to be really good. Not every Goldman ibanking associate gets a great PE job. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:59 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty i was just saying, MBAs and top ug students do not turn down McK offers for IBD offers because of compensation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305895) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:04 PM Author: slimy milk well that is certainly true, they turn them down because McK sucks.
what is with the wharton ug trolling on this board? |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:27 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty that was just an example. i changed it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6306199) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:46 PM Author: slimy milk it isn't socializing when you get forced out if you don't go out. Dood, I know people who do this for a living - it is a tremendous pain in the ass tohave to go get blasted every friday with your co-worked in order to maintain the image of being a "team player." You feel like you are still at work.
"in at 8, out at 6" -
Biglaw (other than M&A): generally in at 10, out at 9 - with a lunch. I don't get the big difference. Yes, you have late nights especially when a deal or case is hot, but it is generally a much less intense job than trading. There is a reason why cocaine was such a problem with the traders in the 80s.
"travelling constantly, but otherwise good hours" - time on the plane to and from Flint is part of work. And second, the hours aren't really that good anyway, at least not substantively better than biglaw. I'd rather work an extra hour a day and be able to sleep in my own bed.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:50 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty getting drunk every friday is not working. people do that whether or not they work on a trading desk.
ok, so consulting hours aren't fantastic, but they really do not belong in the same bracket as biglaw. consultants DO have time to chill and hang out. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:56 PM Author: slimy milk "getting drunk every friday is not working. people do that whether or not they work on a trading desk"
it is when you have to do it with your boss, and, when your drunk, he asks you such zingers as "so, what do you think of that project you are on?" or "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" And if you ever make a poor answer to a wrong step, you are no longer a team player. Its a lot of bullshit political pressure. I'm not saying it doesn't exist at biglaw - it certainly does - but not to the same extent. I'd rather be working on a case than doing that shit.
They really do belong in the same bracket - biglaw people can chill out on the majority of weekends. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:04 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty well, you might be right about the biglaw hours. i'm no expert on associate life.
as far as the traders getting drunk, i don't know what in the hell you're talking about. that might be institutional sales, which is essentially trading, but the real traders at investment banks and hedge funds are geeks with poor social skills, and they brag about how advancement in trading is all about P&L and that politics don't matter at all. which makes sense, if you think about it.
maybe that's the shit that goes down when you're still trying to become a junior trader who actually makes trades, but once you're there it's about the money you make and nothing else. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:06 PM Author: slimy milk "maybe that's the shit that goes down when you're still trying to become a junior trader who actually makes trades, but once you're there it's about the money you make and nothing else"
Perhaps, my friends are all pretty low. But we were talking about ~2 years out. |
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Date: July 27th, 2006 2:28 AM Author: Razzle-dazzle lay Hey fucker... do you even know anything about trading? Shut the fuck up until you do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6311431) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:59 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner i don't disagree about trading. sell side analyst seems like a fun gig too (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305892) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:04 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea but are lawyers happy within 2 years of grad? i think MBAs are still happier. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268683) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:11 PM Author: slimy milk No, but I think both are miserable on average. Some people like their jobs - some don't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268766) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:16 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea then why do lawyers report job dissatisfaction at an astonishly higher rate than MBAs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268809) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:08 AM Author: tripping shrine wagecucks b/c many of them have never worked before becoming a lawyer and don't realize many other jobs are equally boring and pay much less. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6303980) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:27 AM Author: Excitant Spot titcr
MBAs know how much jobs can suck |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:42 PM Author: indigo base fat ankles TITCR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304609) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:07 PM Author: slimy milk Exactly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305973) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:02 PM Author: Curious stage they are to stupid to know how much their lives suck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268660) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:03 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea the average MBA's life is better than yours. thus, i suspect the avg MBA is happier than you are also. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268672) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:12 PM Author: slimy milk Vaj, your shtick is old and trite. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268770) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:13 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea i'm not vag, bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268780) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:03 PM Author: lime locus because they're good at math (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268677) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:06 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty because they're good at women (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268708) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:01 PM Author: Judgmental circlehead space I wouldn't say "good" at math. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6269300) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:07 PM Author: Glittery kitchen haha. excellent point. surprised no one noticed this earlier.
edit: besides which, since when is being good at math correlate d with happiness. pensive, anyone? |
Date: July 21st, 2006 5:14 PM Author: purple dilemma place of business bc they dont do anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268786) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:16 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty but get to boss around biglaw partners. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6268819) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:59 PM Author: multi-colored mauve codepig field fewer lawyers and law students around (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6269284) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:01 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce probably because they make more money, don't bill hours, actually create value instead of living off others' mistakes, and work with fewer douches. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6269296) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:02 PM Author: Judgmental circlehead space "Fewer douches." Fuck, yeah! 0.1 hours billed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6269305) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:03 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce mbas have poor grammar skills (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6269310) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:18 PM Author: apoplectic khaki sanctuary psychic You mean except the ones in consulting? Or do you mean the ones working in i-banking doing hours that make biglaw lawyers look lazy? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6269937) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:40 PM Author: Glittery kitchen Good work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6270107) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:09 PM Author: apoplectic khaki sanctuary psychic ty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6270244) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:46 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce the hours are the same
pay isn't |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:18 PM Author: slimy milk I guarantee you they aren't. Biglaw sucks, but it is a picnic compared to IBanking. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305428) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:28 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty nah, they're more or less the same. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305532) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:08 PM Author: slimy milk uh, no they aren't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305979) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 4:01 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty yeah, they are. you'll learn. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6306551) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 4:17 PM Author: slimy milk Dood, i've worked at a firm. Like I said, if you dont' do M&A, it is significantly better. I think you underestimate how bad IBanking really is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6306729) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:52 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce you don't know shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6307598) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:22 PM Author: slimy milk Sorry law didn't work out for you buddy, but if you think ibanking is going to be the same hours, good luck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6309471) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 11:42 PM Author: Odious Trump Supporter such bullshit. do you know how bankers keep their fees so high? it has nothing to do with the value they add to the deal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6271381) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:11 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty oligopoly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6303990) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:26 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter give this man a cigar. i'm not impressed by that type of business model any more than i'm impressed with opec. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304097) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:34 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty actually, i'd argue that lawyers add more value per dollar they are paid. they keep you from being sued, etc. bankers know they are overpaid - in fact, investment banking fees have been slowly declining over the years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304168) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:39 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter yeah, i'm agreeing with you. and the fact of the matter is, there are tons of lawyers who would be willing to work for $150/hour on the m & a deals. the clients hire the $700/hour superstars from Wachtell and Cravath because they are better lawyers. competition between law firms regulates the rates. with investment banking, there is no competition. if ubs decided to lower their fees, the other bb banks would essentially blacklist them which would have a negative effect on their other businesses, including trading.
investment banking is a risky business. all it would take is for congress to cap fees or to break up the oligopoly, and the entire business model collapses.
this doesn't apply to private equity however. those guys are adding value to the companies they reorganize and make money for their investors. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:45 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty how would such a "blacklist" take effect? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304261) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:48 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter i'm not entirely sure, but the banks need each other for many things. has anyone in this thread worked in ibanking and can shed some light? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304285) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:45 PM Author: chrome stage 20 less iq points = less propensity to existential despair (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6270137) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:02 PM Author: demanding bbw old irish cottage that might have been a joke, but i truly do believe this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6270227) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:20 PM Author: Appetizing cuckoldry yeah, mbas must generally not be as smart as lawyers. do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? maybe some very smart people do not like law/are not interested in it, don't want a PhD, don't want an MD and decide that their best option for the field they are interested in is an MBA. no one that matters claims that an mba is an intellectual endeavour. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:25 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea noncuratlexus is this board's resident idiot. don't mind him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6270318) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:47 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce truer words have never been spoken (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6271057) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:20 PM Author: slimy milk You must enjoying having 3 different monikers to make you look smart, don't you? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305444) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:53 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce hi noncuratlexus (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6307607) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 6:50 AM Author: bull headed cyan hominid useless brakes I think +/- is more of an idiot for taking seriously a statement like that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6272705) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:15 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty look, i pesronally think bulge-bracket ibanking pwns biglaw, but it's quite possible that he's right about MBAs being dumber. even top 10 MBAs. my reasoning, of course, comes from the fact that T14 law schools are so hard to break into - the LSATs are hard as shit and GPAs are reallly high at these law schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304018) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:32 AM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce lawyers are definitely smarter than mbas. but then again, they're pretty dumb for going to ls in the first place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304147) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:36 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty lookwhostalkingPWN3DPWN3DPWN3D (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304183) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:44 AM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce I won't argue against that (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304248) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:45 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty i know, im just jerkin you off (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304265) |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 9:37 PM Author: Judgmental circlehead space "20 fewer IQ points."
Yes! Another 0.1 hours billed. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:34 PM Author: gay black woman Because of all the hot wet bitches. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6271007) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 9:51 AM Author: Floppy generalized bond electric furnace Because ignorance is bliss (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6272837) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 1:53 PM Author: chartreuse ticket booth regret Because most MBAs have ADD, which makes them appear happy while they are not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6273441) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:36 AM Author: bipolar address because mba's are the clients that lawfirm partners pander to.
htfh |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:40 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter bs. a lot of the ceo's of fortune 500 companies don't even have mba's anymore. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304218) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:42 AM Author: bipolar address link? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304235) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:44 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter http://www.forbes.com/2002/04/25/0425ceoschools.html (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304257) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:47 AM Author: bipolar address many of the guys with no advanced degrees probably went to wharton for ug, hence obviating the need for an mba. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304281) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:50 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter i tend to think it's more that mba's don't really teach anyone leadership ability. people with the innate disposition for it get mba's, but there is no reason that they have to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304300) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:22 PM Author: slimy milk The only reason to get an MBA is if you want to make a career change. You don't actually learn anything through the program.
That being said, I don't think you learn much of anything at law school either. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:48 AM Author: bipolar address "Formal education does count for something. M.B.A.s turn up as chief executives more often than people with no advanced degree at all, and 50% more often than executives with law degrees, master's degrees and doctorates combined."
pwn3d |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:50 AM Author: frisky brilliant kitty the thing is, do people even screen your resume if they are considering giving you a promotion WITHIN the company? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304298) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:52 AM Author: bipolar address i am sure it is a factor that they look at in determining a persons qualifications for the job. having a wharton or harvard mba will help. also many of the top financial jobs require a harvard or wharton mba or at least a wharton ug degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304308) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:17 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner shut up you fucking wharton troll (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304863) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:21 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea of course they do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304471) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:54 AM Author: Odious Trump Supporter how is that pwned? only 35% of the ceo's have mba's. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304317) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:10 PM Author: opaque lascivious scourge upon the earth principal's office But remember this is at a time when those CEOs came out of UG in the early 80's, 70's, and even 60's. The percentage of CEOs with MBAs will only increase as time goes on and more and more people feel they need it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304402) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:31 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy Being married to one, I am told:
1. No billable hours 2. Corporate jobs (not IB) rarely go past 5:00. 3. The money is about the same as law (but the per hour earnings are much better). 4. If you pick the right concentration, the work is actually interesting and often fun. 5. No bar, no continuing education, no license to get tagged with every infraction... Oh yeah, and you CAN lie on your resume if you want (nobody will know). 6. Fewer HUGE egos. 7. Much more flexability if you want to change directions during your career. 8. Smaller student loans and less time in school.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:36 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty #7 is hugely important. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304574) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:44 PM Author: Excitant Spot I can't imagine #6 being true AT ALL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304617) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:45 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea yeah, that kind of strikes me as completely false. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304625) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:01 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy The only field that has a higher percentage of huge egos than law is professional sports. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304741) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:10 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain I doubt that as well. I find douchiness to be a problem more than egos. Douchiness is MUCH more prevalent in business, where you've got incompetent, overpaid morons throwing around buzz words thinking they are god's gift.
I like law students because even though they act pretentious, you can usually see right through it and know they just try to use big words to cover up for the fact that they never get laid. Its very easy to PWN in social settings. Douchey, fratboy corporate guys are very difficult to pwn because as dumb as they are, they get chicks, so they are confident and generally happy. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:18 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy Well, PWNing people in social settings can be quite douchey too. I prefer to just ignore bullshitters. Most people who have any self-confidence and are older than 23 dont go around "pwning" people whenever they can. They let it slide and let a douche be a douche. There are better things to spend one's energy on.
Douchey, corporate fratboys who get chicks and are confident and happy are probably easier to spend a working day around than insecure virgin lawyers who try to pwn people in social settings. Plus, the working day is much shorter. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:28 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain I see your point, but I disagree with the conclusion. Although I love chasing girls around as much as the next guy, I prefer to work in an atmosphere where people are more professional. I realize I'm about to be as guilty as you are by generalizing, but in my experience lawyers are more focused on their work and have far less discussions beginning with "oh man did you see that girl's tits?" With law, people are dedicated to a profession. In corporate America, people are there to clock-in and collect their check.
This is totally anecdotal, so I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but my friends that went straight corporate (most are from big state/frat boy schools, I admit) do nothing but harass women every time we go out to the bars. Its not only embarassing, but really obnoxious to be around. I'd much rather enjoy drinking with my friends, have good conversation, and see what girls come my way. Standing there looking like a neaderthal with a beer held close to my chest saying "dude did she look over here? her friend's cute, nice ass" is terribly immature IMO. I actually PREFER my law school friends now to my high school friends because we can go some place, have a sophisticated topic, and attract people our way. With my high school/corporate friends its like being at stupid mixers all over again. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:33 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy There can be no doubt that law school is more selective than B school. Law school is also hareder to get through. Because of this, B school will get a lot more party dudes and fewer bookish people. I'm not at all surprised that your b school buds troll bars like sharks. That may have something to do with their age though.
I am only referring to averages and norms, dude. My wife went to Anderson and said that at least 20% of her class were total idiots. Because of the vetting process, I doubt very much that a comparable law school would have so many.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:39 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain right, so maybe, in answer to the original debate, its just because MBAs are idiots more often than not (because it is easy to get in) and JDs are overambitious and aren't satisfied no matter what they are able to accomplish. Therefore, business > law is a stupid argument. Its self-selection as was already stated.
I'd rather be with the miserable yet overambitious as opposed to the idiot frat boys. I've made that choice time and time again in my life. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:41 PM Author: Excitant Spot there must be areas of business more intellectual than the idiot frat boy who majored in marketing
what about Finance/Operations Research? |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:43 PM Author: Ruby native marketing idea the idea that business is for idiots and frat boys while law is for intellectuals is one of the stupidest claims i've ever heard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305103) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:49 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain he was trying to make generalities, so i did too (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305157) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:09 PM Author: Excitant Spot my experiences with the BIG10 school I attend certainly seem to make the case for it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305347) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:11 PM Author: Cerebral misanthropic quadroon toaster Seems to be true for the most part. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305362) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:53 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy I never said business is greater than law. I was responding to why business people are often happier than lawyers. It's all a matter of preference.
If you are smart and ambitious and can get into a good law school, then go. If you place high enough you know what salary awaits you and you know what your life will be like. Your raises are predetermined. It sounds like a sure thing.
If you go to business school, it is not so certain. You may start at 50k, you may start at 150k. Your raises are not at all predetermined and your career could go any number of directions. Its not a sure thing at all.
That said, the lawyers I know often say that if they could make the same $ doing something else, they probably would. The business people I know live lives that go beyond the office and are generally pretty happy.
It's all a matter of preference. Im just posting the reasons business people appreciate their situation. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:08 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain You have seriously got to be kidding about #2. My friends at accenture work tons of hours.
Also, #3 and #7 are misleading and stupid generalities to make. Corporate managers rarely make more than V10 upper level associates (or even mid-level associates) unless they are post MBA and have many years of experience. You start at 40-50k. Make your way to around 75k and its MBA time which takes two years, then you're at 100-150k, but by then you are 27. I'll be making 175k (after bonus) at age 25, and my salary will increase around 10-20k per year until I leave biglaw. If I make partner, I will make a million or so/year. A mil/year is very, very good for a corporate dude. It is the norm for V50 partners.
#7 is also bad. You have more options with an MBA in BUSINESS. Its all too obvious that if you don't like practicing law, don't go to law school. However, there are many many different fields of law and many different practice settings (government state, government federal, public interest, big law firm, small law firm, medium law firm, boutique, sole-practioner, inhouse counsel). If you want to be in the legal field, a top law degree offers a great deal of flexibility. If you want to be in the business field, not so much. However, you can be in business with a J.D. Can't be in law with an MBA.
Also, as far as the great dissatisfaction rates for lawyers: I saw a NALP study recently that showed high dissatisfaction for attorneys at large firms, and VERY HIGH satisfaction for medium to small firms. Bottom line is, don't go work for a sweatshop unless you really are desparate for the $. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:21 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner - roll consultancies into the long hours category. a lot of those guys bill by the hour too.
- don't forget that here BUSINESS also includes non-profits, and perhaps management positions in the government |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:30 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain that is very true, but I think the term "flexibility" gets thrown around too much when people talk about MBAs vs JDs. I have two bosses. One worked for a law firm, then the governor, now a PI org and she's only about 40. The other worked inhouse, then a political campaign, and is now a judge. I mean, the career track is much DIFFERENT, but both degrees give you lots of opportunities. I think a lot of JDs just expected there to be more opportunities in BUSINESS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304986) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:05 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner Your point is a good one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305304) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:26 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy As for salary numbers, I am speaking of ordinary grads, not V10 upper level associates or V50 partners. V50 partners should be compared to CEOs, not normal grunts.
The flexability I am talking about is within the field. If you leave B school and go to work for a defense contractor for 10 years, and then decide you hate it, you can easily go work for a party goods company or a auto maker or whatever. Your working day will be much different. If you spend 10 years in Real Estate law, good luck going to work in another area of law. At best you will take an enormous pay cut.
EDIT: Nobody my wife graduated with started at 40-50k. Since work experience is the norm, most of her classmates were making more than that the day they started B school. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:37 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain <As for salary numbers, I am speaking of ordinary grads, <not V10 upper level associates or V50 partners. V50 <partners should be compared to CEOs, not normal grunts.
Well, this is just a different of opinion I guess. I would say you have to compare Top MBAs to Top JDs. Also, there are many more V50 partners than Top 50 Company CEOs. There are only 50 of the latter.
>The flexability I am talking about is within the field. If >you leave B school and go to work for a defense contractor >for 10 years, and then decide you hate it, you can easily >go work for a party goods company or a auto maker or >whatever. Your working day will be much different. If you >spend 10 years in Real Estate law, good luck going to work >in another area of law. At best you will take an enormous >pay cut.
I totally disagree here. I know lots of lawyers who started in one area and have worked in many other practice areas since then. You can work in whatever area you want in law unless you suck balls and get pidgeonholed somewhere (which certainly happens in business also). What you are describing here happens ALL THE TIME in law. You work in one area of a field, then go to a business/firm in another area of that field. For whatever reason, you like the opportunities in business more than law, but within each field there are plenty of different practice areas. PDs become partners in white collar defense firms, real estate attorneys go to work for real estate developers, M&A attorneys go to work for banks or other financial institutions. I know a trust and estate guy that went to work for commerce bank. PEOPLE CHANGE JOBS ALL THE TIME IN BOTH FIELDS.
>EDIT: Nobody my wife graduated with started at 40-50k. >Since work experience is the norm, most of her classmates >were making more than that the day they started B school.
I think you misunderstood me. 40-50k out of college is pretty normal I think. That's what my friends at accenture make their first year. I said 100-150k after a top20 MBA.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:47 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy I have not heard of lawyers changing fields very often. You may be right. I was always lead to believe that if you spent your first 5-10 years in a field of law, it was very difficult to change directions altogether. I know one girl who is a DA in Los Angeles and another who is in real estate law. Both have been there for about 5 years. Both tell me it would be near impossible to get hired in a firm that does, say...environmental law. They both feel trapped. I admit though, my knowledge of this is very limited. You may be right that lawyers can change directions very easily.
In business it happens often. People go from sporting goods companies to plastic manufacturers to aerospace. Their daily work is very different in each and they tell me that if it sucks, they can just go do something else. If that is also commonplace in law, I stand corrected. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:51 PM Author: Poppy fear-inspiring stain it might be more or less common in business than in law, I don't know. However, I do know that people do it ALL the time. Sure its not easy to go from one area of law to another, but you are still a JD. You can find a way to practice in another area if you want. Its worse at big firms, where you have to micro-specialize faster. At medium size firms, you have a wider practice area. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305182) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:28 PM Author: slimy milk "People go from sporting goods companies to plastic manufacturers to aerospace."
People go from those same companies as lawyers too. The issue is their practice area. If you do trading, for example, for 10 years, it is very hard to suddenly want to become an ibanker or sales. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:31 PM Author: Twinkling Narrow-minded Really Tough Guy This is a good point. The same is true in business. You can't go from finance to operations very easily.
I was wrong about this point. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:41 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty trading? trading is known as a field that will pigeonhole you. investment banking has a shitload of exit opps. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305694) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:52 PM Author: slimy milk "shitload of exit opps"
To do more investment banking type jobs. I don't know how this makes it more flexible than a JD from a big firm who has literally 100s of options of where he wants to practice. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:30 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty compared to trading, there is a lot more you can do with investment banking experience. compared to biglaw, well, that's a tougher comparison. the thing is, people go into IBD with the goal of leaving for all kinds of greener pastures, so you know there are good exit opps. the same cannot be said of biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6306231) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:33 PM Author: slimy milk I probably agree with your point on trading, but if you want to be a trader it doesn't really matter.
" the thing is, people go into IBD with the goal of leaving for all kinds of greener pastures, so you know there are good exit opps. the same cannot be said of biglaw"
says who? out of a top firm, you can go to all sorts of different LEGAL careers and, if you are lucky, some business ones. The fact that it is all legal doesn't mean you don't have any options. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:40 PM Author: tripping shrine wagecucks This is true. I've talked to business people who have told me the hiring manager at my firm probably shouldn't see us talking because in three to four years I'd get calls from them to work for them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6309588) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 8:16 PM Author: Motley Corner Hairy Legs I don't know about the hours. All our clients seem to work as many or more hours than me, then again that is finance.
If you are taking a job in a corporation, you are not leaving at 5pm and making lawyer salaries. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:44 PM Author: Cerebral misanthropic quadroon toaster As other posters have implied, self-selection probably plays a big role. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6304620) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:30 PM Author: slimy milk yea, a large amount of these whiny douches were whiny douches when they made their decision, and would have been whiny douches as ibankers too. They probably didn't get an MBA because they were such whiny douches that they knew they didn't have the personality skills required for that job (or, more accurately, weren't willing to change). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305551) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:33 PM Author: pearly boyish public bath therapy I would be willing to bet that the vast majority MBAs from average B-schools would be intimidated by and most likely also feel inferior to JDs. Virtually any person can attend business school at any state university w/ very little requirements and there is no bar to pass once completed. Unlike JD an MBA is not a professional doctorate degree and if you are unable to find a job after grad school, you may be unemployed or working as a manager for a department store. Society as a whole has much higher regard (*not reputation) for lawyers than people with MBAs or any other grad degree for that matter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305592) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:37 PM Author: slimy milk true, but basically this board only cares about T14 law schools and T10 b-schools (if that) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305640) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:40 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty exactly. that person is an idiot. we are not talking about Chico State's Executive MBA program, whose graduates end up managing department stores. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305675) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:41 PM Author: slimy milk Nor the new england school of law grads who go work in a claims department somewhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305699) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty i have a friend who wants to get a JD online later in life. he doesn't think it's gonna get him a job or anything, he just wants to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305761) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:48 PM Author: slimy milk Why not just by some treatises? I don't get this at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305780) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:58 PM Author: frisky brilliant kitty it sounded like he actually savored the idea of having the JD degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6306527) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM Author: pearly boyish public bath therapy I am not disagreeing w/ any of this, I was speaking in general terms. Average society does not subjectively distinguish the difference between T14 and TTT attorneys and much less T10 MBA with the vast number of others. If the argument is happiness by prestige of field and professional respect, the MBA loses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305771) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:38 PM Author: Excitant Spot umm, MD? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305650) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:41 PM Author: pearly boyish public bath therapy MD > JD > MBA (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305696) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:55 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce in terms of what? number of jews per capita? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6307624) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:08 PM Author: slimy milk Shaolin = Joe_Vaj = Reade_Seligmann (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6305977) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:11 PM Author: underhanded pearl partner =KimboSlice
== big fucking MBA troll |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:54 PM Author: Irate swashbuckling lettuce i'm pretty sure shaolin is bull connor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6307620) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:57 PM Author: talented bat-shit-crazy meetinghouse filthpig so basically you don't deny that joe_vaj = yourself = kimboslice, at least?
if shaolin is bull connor, no way shaolin = you = bull connor...writing style and focus are way too different. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 6:03 PM Author: Scarlet razzmatazz ladyboy stock car this is common knowledge joe_vaj = reade_seligmann = kimboslice
shaolin=bull connor=strom thurmond |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:21 PM Author: dead stimulating temple candlestick maker Why don't you continue practicing law rather than wasting two years getting a MBA? You could practice law without being in Biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6309460) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:25 PM Author: Wonderful crusty idea he suggested why would he want to do that? law sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6309491) |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:29 PM Author: slimy milk just change "he" to "I" - this is getting retarded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6309508) |
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Date: July 27th, 2006 2:13 AM Author: galvanic shitlib dysfunction remember entrepreneurs pwn lawyers. most lawyers don't make millions. they make like 150K or 200K if they are lucky. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=458946&forum_id=2#6311318) |