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Kid is 5 yrs old. Have $22,000 in her 529. Practically meaningless??
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:13 PM Author: Pontificating big lodge giraffe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411594) |
Date: July 25th, 2015 8:33 PM Author: soul-stirring khaki chapel I put $500 a month in for each of my kids and it feels like pissing in the ocean. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411694) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:38 PM Author: Pontificating big lodge giraffe yeah, we put about $750 in. It is a joke (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411721) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:34 PM Author: godawful private investor puppy There really is no point. Unless you have liquid millions they have to go somewhere they can get in for free (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411701) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:39 PM Author: Pontificating big lodge giraffe well, in 13 years, we will have liquid a couple of million. Hoping to get her 529 up to around $200k by then, and hopefully she gets in Berkeley or UCLA and they aren't much more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411725) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:39 PM Author: godawful private investor puppy proud of u dood congrats (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411729) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:40 PM Author: Pontificating big lodge giraffe destroying your hopes and dreams for your kids' sake is nothing to congratulate anyone on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411731) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:41 PM Author: multi-colored vermilion indirect expression ticket booth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411735) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 10:36 AM Author: Tripping glittery toilet seat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#29027717) |
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Date: March 17th, 2016 1:14 AM Author: stubborn lavender address (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30076569) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:08 PM Author: Swashbuckling sable pit Honestly, that's not going to cut it by then. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412206) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 9:23 AM Author: Tripping glittery toilet seat Try 500k (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#29027383) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:37 PM Author: Thirsty blathering tanning salon I am on the fence about contributing to these. On the one hand, I still have a mortgage, want to do home improvements and take vacations and shit rather than throwing money into these accounts. As it stands right now, we max out tax-advantaged accounts and generally save about $30,000 per annum on top of that. I haven't put anything into taxable investments yet (beyond savings accounts) as we have had to replace vehicles and save up for our house down payment. I'm a little mixed on taxable investment accounts anyway for a wage earning family like mine. I really don't know what to do with extra money but a Nevada 529 through Vanguard seems like a black hole unless you've got hundreds of thousands of taxable dollars you need to find a home for. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411718) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:53 PM Author: Pale principal's office Some states like NY you get a state tax deduction.
Also people making over 100k should think about contributing now because the dems have already made clear that they want to get rid of these for "rich" people.
That being said you shouldn't be going into credit card debt or whatnot to fund one of these things. |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:57 PM Author: vibrant burgundy hell Of course 529s are bullshit and we should get rid of them. It has the bizarre effect of granting tax free treatment for expenses people would have paid regardless, then raises taxes on everyone else (poorer people who aren't going to college) to pay for it. There's no logic to it whatsoever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411805) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:59 PM Author: contagious mexican The logic to it is that college is expensive and you want parents to pay for it by planning for it in advance rather than leaving kids to graduate with a mortgage worth of debt and a crap job, which will have terrible consequences for the next generation. This accomplishes that. Yes, some would have paid for it anyway, but some would not have.
Plus, few enough intelligent people have kids. Many don't or have fewer kids for financial reasons (I'm in that category myself). Minimizing the likely brewing idiocracy is probably a good idea. |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 9:04 PM Author: vibrant burgundy hell As the evidence in this thread shows, only the extremely rich come at all close to covering the cost of college with a 529. Other people are paying more in taxes than they get in benefits to subsidize the rich who just run every single school expense through a 529. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411848) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 9:07 PM Author: soul-stirring khaki chapel What is your definition of extremely rich? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411863) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 9:58 PM Author: vibrant burgundy hell I don't want to get into that debate.
There's no income limit for contributions though. So you have a lot of rich people who use it to run through educational expenses and for estate planning.
Then you have other people who are pinching and saving and think that it's a good thing that this exists because otherwise they could never afford it. That's bullshit, but they just don't understand the overall system. It's the same with property taxes. If you send the poorest homeowner a $100 property tax refund, they will vote for any property tax you want because they don't understand that it's benefiting the "rich" far more. |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:43 AM Author: impertinent den explain the property tax thing, i don't get it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28413640) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:10 PM Author: contagious mexican Perhaps, but it is the middle class that relies on those tax savings much more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412217) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:23 PM Author: vibrant burgundy hell My point is, when you have no income cap on contributions, it's a net loser for the middle class too (even though they're using the 529). They just don't realize it. Their other taxes are higher to make for the lost revenue from 529s. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412292) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:24 PM Author: contagious mexican Income cap is senseless because it is really about wealth, not income. What would you even set it at? $500K+? Most rich people get paid in cap gains so they would be well under that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412302) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 10:52 AM Author: vibrant burgundy hell Wealth cap would be better, good luck getting anything related to wealth in the tax code within the next 50 years (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414315) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:18 AM Author: ruby chest-beating home I'm proud of you. This is good work.
Except, don't be a POS. Have a bunch of kids. The dumbs are. |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:38 AM Author: contagious mexican A bunch? We would do like 1 max if we had any. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28413627) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:01 PM Author: Galvanic parlor Poor people who don't go to college see their taxes raised? What taxes? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412484) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:20 AM Author: ruby chest-beating home This. 47% is bad politics but...truth hurts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28413550) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:33 AM Author: Pungent turdskin striped hyena (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28413601) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 10:26 AM Author: vibrant burgundy hell See below. This line of thinking really irritated me. It seemed like cons said "Hey, the truth hurts" and Dems said "But it's mean!"
People who actually understand taxes don't care that it's mean. It was just a stupid statement and dead wrong. (That's without even getting into the insanity of someone making that statement who was born wealthy then made a fortune in PE on the back of carried interest). |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 10:15 AM Author: vibrant burgundy hell Even if you pay literally no income taxes or get a credit, you still pay net taxes in property taxes (through rent or directly) and sales tax. Credit is designed to offset payroll taxes.
Plus, use taxes, gas tax, vehicle registration fees. |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:02 PM Author: Galvanic parlor And why is it okay to boom it up in retirement through IRAs and 401(k)s, but 529s are somehow bad? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412491) |
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Date: January 17th, 2026 5:20 PM Author: zesty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#49597166) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 8:57 PM Author: Doobsian wonderful dilemma dingle berry By the time your kid goes to college tuition will be completely different. Don't be surprised if Harvard just changes its tuition to "whatever is in your parents 529 account plus 15k" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28411803) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:25 PM Author: Fragrant lilac tattoo selfie cr. there's going to be a backlash and there's going to be tuition-limiting legislation in the next 15-20 years.
the BERKELEY TO 90K A YEAR crowd is being silly.
i still have my wife's unused 529 and i'm funding my kid's. it will be easy to take advantage of the shitlibbery. |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:26 PM Author: Pontificating big lodge giraffe that would be a superb result (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412312) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:02 PM Author: Disrespectful sooty theatre wagecucks Why not a UTMA instead of a 529? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412175) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:46 PM Author: passionate vengeful gay wizard hospital (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412415) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 10:51 PM Author: Ultramarine Exciting Public Bath in 15 yrs college will become completely meaningless and you'll have to cash out with a tax penalty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412431) |
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Date: March 17th, 2016 12:36 AM Author: buff heady ladyboy space The tax penalty isn't any worse (and I believe is better) than cashing out a Roth or something. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30076301) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:41 PM Author: disgusting karate step-uncle's house My kids will be raised from birth to understand that if they don't earn a scholarship somewhere, they will need to go to community college or join the military because I ain't paying sticker for anything.
If I do end up saving something in a 529, it won't be enough to cover full freight anywhere, and it will be a backup plan for if they just get like 50% scholarship somewhere. |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:46 PM Author: Fragrant lilac tattoo selfie part of me respects this POV and part of me believes it is the epitome of boomer proledom (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412788) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:46 PM Author: disgusting karate step-uncle's house Its the only practical response to the insane cost of college. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412791) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:48 PM Author: Fragrant lilac tattoo selfie meh that's not my kid's fault and i'm not going to sit at my beach house drinking a cocktail going "heh" while my kid is cannon fodder because of THE PRINCIPLES (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412801) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:49 PM Author: disgusting karate step-uncle's house its not about principles. its about what I can afford.
if I had a lot of money I would pay all my kids expenses plus give them a trust fund. the issue is I don't have a lot of money, so I can either live in abject poverty while saving for a $200,000 college degree, or I can give my kid a decent life for their first 18 years and then hope they're smart enough to earn a free ride somewhere |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:52 PM Author: Fragrant lilac tattoo selfie my grandparents put 7 kids through public ivies on one income. it's about priorities.
and if you can't scramble up $200k 20 years from now through home equity or other loans even then you have real financial problems |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:53 PM Author: disgusting karate step-uncle's house yeah man, there has totally been no tuition inflation between now and your grandparents time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412856) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:57 PM Author: Fragrant lilac tattoo selfie it's not as much as you think
this particular school had ~$2500/year in-state tuition in the 70s. that's ~$12000 in 2015 dollars. it's now ~$28000. so it definitely has more than doubled, but it's not like it's 10X or something.
and my grandparents did it 7X. |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 10:33 AM Author: milky dashing locus toaster I'd like to see a link showing this $2500 tuition in the 70's. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414267) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:24 AM Author: Lake field milk shut the fuck up boomer scum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28413557) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 10:29 AM Author: Fragrant lilac tattoo selfie look, my point is that we need to avoid the boomers' shittiness. i.e. not buy 80k cars and houses in the Hamptons and then tell our kids "hey bro, community college or basic training! peace!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414261) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 2:49 AM Author: Ruddy library Yes, tell us all about 1980. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28413662) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 6:25 PM Author: Sickened judgmental indian lodge goyim why dont you have money? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28416815) |
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Date: July 25th, 2015 11:58 PM Author: stubborn lavender address Enlisting in the military is complete flame. No informed human being who loves their children would do that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28412908) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:06 AM Author: rusted provocative corn cake Depends. If we are just coming out a major war, enlisting in the military is credited because there isn't likely to be another war during your period of enlistment. On the other hand enlisting right when a NeoCon dumbass gets elected after a decade of shitlib rule: pepper angus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414366) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 10:40 AM Author: Translucent spectacular theater stage we'll see what tuition looks like when the time comes
I'll probably bribe my kids to take the biggest scholarship they can get at a state school
I'd rather just give my kids straight cash than throw it at the anything but a hypsmc type place
let them figure out something enterprising to do with it |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:07 AM Author: rusted provocative corn cake Do colleges consider the money that you have saved up in your 529s when determining how much grant/aid to provide? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414370) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:09 AM Author: vibrant burgundy hell Yes, but as parent assets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414380) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:11 AM Author: rusted provocative corn cake Explain. Does that affect the free money the kid gets? I don't understand the difference between parent assets and child assets for this purpose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414389) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:14 AM Author: Galvanic parlor You're better off fully funding your retirement first because the 529 assets are considered parent assets for financial aid. Retirement funds aren't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414398) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:15 AM Author: vibrant burgundy hell They take a percentage of parent assets (5.6% I believe) and assume that portion can be spent on college costs. Child assets are going to get a higher percent applied to them (20 I believe) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414403) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 11:51 AM Author: Glassy concupiscible bbw Saying anything is a fucking joke. Don't you pay attention? Everyone gets bailed out at some point. You're a fucking idiot if you're financially responsible going to cheap schools and buying a house you can afford and shit. LOL at you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28414570) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 6:13 PM Author: rusted provocative corn cake (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28416741) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 6:24 PM Author: Brass Seedy House Mad-dog Skullcap Why bother saving that much money as a UMC parent for your kid to go to Bucknell or Tufts or some shit middling college that costs 200K+? Just send them to the local CC and transfer to the state flagship or get a scholarship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28416806) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 7:50 PM Author: soul-stirring khaki chapel How much will big state u cost in 18 years? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28417202) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 7:25 PM Author: odious chartreuse newt As much as the private schools now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30073700) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 7:36 PM Author: 180 Obsidian Wrinkle If you make like 200k, you'd damn well better be able to pay cash because your kids aren't getting a dime of tuition assistance outside of loans. This is part of why having kids is a cruel joke for the upper middle class (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28417114) |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 8:47 PM Author: Purple racy pozpig ljl in state tuition at big state u will be $140k/year in 13 years
a top 50 private school will set you back $370k/year |
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Date: July 26th, 2015 8:54 PM Author: 180 Obsidian Wrinkle Job prospects for each? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#28417499) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 9:31 AM Author: light cheese-eating location hairy legs bigstate: KPMG/PWC accounting t50 private: t25 law school 400k debt -> NOJERB |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 10:42 AM Author: Translucent spectacular theater stage why would someone pay that?
doesn't it need to have some connection with an expected ROI?
seems like we're well past a reasonable expected ROI now |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 10:57 AM Author: light cheese-eating location hairy legs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#29027822) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 9:19 AM Author: light cheese-eating location hairy legs was thinking about this too. I don't think it's worth putting a dime in one. College tuition rates way outpace inflation. There's going to be a reckoning and shit's going to hit the fan sooner rather than later. No one can afford what tuition is going to be in 10 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#29027373) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 9:51 AM Author: Pale principal's office I assume there will always be a use for the money. For example I think you can use it to pay for school books and some room and board.
Also the penalty for removing assets from a 529 is 10%. You have to pay income tax on the gains. It might all be fine given that you had tax deferral on the gains.
What I hate about our tax system is there are all of these guessing games we are expecting the average joe to make with no information. Roth or traditional IRA / 401k? How much to put in my flex account this year? Oh but the dependent flex account has different rules than the normal flex account? Oh what about the transit account - that's completely different! And if you make a mistake the tax consequences are tremendous. The tax code shouldn't force you to make decisions which are basically gambling. |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 12:02 AM Author: charismatic metal locale crotch Bothers the fuck out of me too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30068198) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 9:28 AM Author: hairless market keepsake machete You: slaving away to put money into your dotters college savings plan.
Her: Taking 9 inches of Darnell's cock "hehe stop my dad is calling" |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 10:05 AM Author: Onyx cuck your child can get a cheap or free STEM education somewhere. maybe even distance learning with the rise of the MOOC. don't waste your money (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#29027559) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2015 10:08 AM Author: Drab fat ankles my in-laws faithfully save for my dotter via 529. I let them because it may come in handy, but I think education will be a very different enterprise in 17 or so years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#29027577) |
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Date: March 17th, 2016 12:04 AM Author: multi-colored vermilion indirect expression ticket booth the hardest STEM subjects to learn are those which benefit the most from IRL feedback and projects. good fucking luck autodidacting electrical engineering through a MOOC. not to mention it takes an enormous amount of self discipline to sit in front of a computer and teach yourself something difficult. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30076019) |
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Date: March 15th, 2016 11:47 PM Author: cobalt stirring bawdyhouse therapy Only gains get the 10% penalty if not used for education, so who gives a shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30068068) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 12:25 AM Author: honey-headed excitant stage liquid oxygen One of the many problems with the Northeast is that the state universities aren't well respected. If I have children, I would love to have them go to the Ivies, but if they can't get in, a chill Southern ACC or SEC school is a reasonable option, and some place like Emory or Wake Forest would be hard to justify, at least financially. By contrast, someone in the Northeast who is choosing between Syracuse and UMass seems to have a tougher call to make. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30068419) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 12:58 AM Author: Ruddy library College 15 years from now should be treated like a PhD program. If you can't go for free, you shouldn't be going. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30068671) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 7:03 PM Author: mahogany mind-boggling base pisswyrm I hope you stashed some money in there when the market tanked. I stashed away $50k when s&p hit 1850. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30073544) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 7:32 PM Author: crusty white box office stfu (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30073767) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 7:56 PM Author: Pale principal's office gotta love xoxohth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30073946) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 7:39 PM Author: Scarlet prole if higher education isnt 90% abolished in 20 years, we're doing it wrong in this country (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30073838) |
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Date: March 16th, 2016 11:58 PM Author: impertinent den all i can say is
in | state | tuition |
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Date: March 17th, 2016 12:05 AM Author: multi-colored vermilion indirect expression ticket booth I'd save up enough to pay for state school. anything past that and they can pay unless they get in to MIT. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#30076029) |
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Date: January 17th, 2026 5:21 PM Author: richard clock alright your kid is 15 now, how is the 529 going? glad you did it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2945918&forum_id=2Elisa#49597171) |