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Question about European feudalism.

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have m...
scarlet queen of the night
  06/14/13
just walk outside bro
stimulating temple
  05/29/25
(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)
stimulating temple
  05/29/25
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stimulating temple
  06/03/25
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
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stimulating temple
  07/12/26
Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obs...
peach double fault
  07/12/26
cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though ...
stimulating temple
  07/12/26
...
stimulating temple
  07/13/26
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stimulating temple
  07/19/26
...
nyuug
  08/04/26
Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the la...
Shimmering Laughsome Casino
  05/29/25
Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitar...
galvanic dilemma
  05/29/25
(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded ...
Shimmering Laughsome Casino
  05/29/25
They were better because you had different tribal clans owni...
galvanic dilemma
  05/29/25
read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of ...
Shimmering Laughsome Casino
  05/29/25
Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the P...
multi-colored khaki point
  07/01/25
...
curious topaz parlor depressive
  07/13/25
...
Big-titted impressive kitchen
  07/13/25
what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?
Aggressive national quadroon
  05/29/25
cq
learning disabled aromatic space party of the first part
  05/29/25
I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on ju...
hot jap
  06/03/25
teen black death survivors were the original Boomers
multi-colored khaki point
  07/02/25
...
Lemon ape spot
  12/18/25
i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf ...
cracking wine church building
  06/08/25
Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as ba...
Vigorous potus piazza
  07/01/25
really depended on the country, the region, and the lord re...
Pale gaping
  07/16/25
It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar s...
arousing bat-shit-crazy address ladyboy
  11/11/25
it was a nanny state.
seedy jew
  11/24/25
Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a sett...
arousing bat-shit-crazy address ladyboy
  12/08/25
actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts four...
Pale gaping
  12/18/25
13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per y...
Lascivious hyperactive tank
  04/23/26
"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long ...
Lascivious hyperactive tank
  04/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM
Author: scarlet queen of the night

Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#23393887)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM
Author: stimulating temple

just walk outside bro

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48969812)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM
Author: stimulating temple

(and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48969813)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48985020)



Reply Favorite

Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48997575)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49064860)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49070377)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49077411)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49084518)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49098591)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49101058)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49105012)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49117359)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49128622)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49141968)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49143857)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49156580)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49172980)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49421817)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49421862)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49421881)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49422254)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49424474)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49425035)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49425543)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49427654)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49436681)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49436785)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49439167)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49441985)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49454945)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49455274)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49457596)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49458108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49461550)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49463581)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49464738)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49466319)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49467160)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49478445)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49484240)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49484832)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49492316)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49493000)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49495268)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49497250)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49500993)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49515504)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49518561)



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Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49529071)



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Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49532458)



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Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49536032)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49545634)



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Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49545665)



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Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49548639)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49562700)



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Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49567730)



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Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49584404)



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Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49589879)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49604959)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49838395)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49838453)



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Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49884309)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49890852)



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Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49893306)



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Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49900593)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49903004)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49905466)



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Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49913565)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 7th, 2026 11:56 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49985467)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 8th, 2026 7:24 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49987106)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 9th, 2026 10:50 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49989901)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49995176)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:04 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49995527)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:18 PM
Author: peach double fault

Nigga WTF do you know about this? Why are you so fucking obsessed with whites?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49995563)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 12th, 2026 11:21 PM
Author: stimulating temple

cumskins dont make trillions of threads about asians though for sure

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49995567)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2026 5:50 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49997293)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 19th, 2026 9:36 PM
Author: stimulating temple



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#50011037)



Reply Favorite

Date: August 4th, 2026 9:58 PM
Author: nyuug



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#50046030)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM
Author: Shimmering Laughsome Casino

Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence?

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48969854)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM
Author: galvanic dilemma

Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48969860)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM
Author: Shimmering Laughsome Casino

(ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48969863)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM
Author: galvanic dilemma

They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48969954)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: Shimmering Laughsome Casino

read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48971066)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM
Author: multi-colored khaki point

Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49065184)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM
Author: curious topaz parlor depressive



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49098592)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM
Author: Big-titted impressive kitchen



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49098608)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM
Author: Aggressive national quadroon

what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48970037)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM
Author: learning disabled aromatic space party of the first part

cq

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48970041)



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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM
Author: hot jap

I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48985033)



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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM
Author: multi-colored khaki point

teen black death survivors were the original Boomers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49065206)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM
Author: Lemon ape spot



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49518664)



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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM
Author: cracking wine church building

i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#48997602)



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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM
Author: Vigorous potus piazza

Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49065026)



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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM
Author: Pale gaping

really depended on the country, the region, and the lord

removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49105022)



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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM
Author: arousing bat-shit-crazy address ladyboy

It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49421865)



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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM
Author: seedy jew

it was a nanny state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49458174)



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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM
Author: arousing bat-shit-crazy address ladyboy

Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49495273)



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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM
Author: Pale gaping

actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts

foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49518563)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Lascivious hyperactive tank

13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails

you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49838409)



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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM
Author: Lascivious hyperactive tank

"Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2Reputation#49838410)