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Would you take this in-house job? (part 2)
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:12 PM Author: flirting therapy Job is in NJ, company is a wholesale distributor of food supplies to high end supermarkets. Company is public, legal dept now consists of 1 lawyer, slightly older than my self. Pay is 125k, no bonus, hours are roughly 8-6. Was told I will be working on a variety of matters like supply contracts, confidentiality agrmt, SEC matters, M and A, and shitty stuff like contract analysis, risk management and board matters.
I am v30 corp, CCN top quarter. I am not necessarily looking to stay forever. In fact I may move to smaller low COL cities in a year (geographic flexibility in my current practice is limited, i work w structured products). I am hoping this job will open doors to other in house, low stress jobs in those markets. But I may stay, it's not clear at the moment. Take job or try to last another year in biglaw? |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:33 PM Author: violent mildly autistic corner how the hell can't a public company see the value in bringing a second lawyer inhouse for more than $125k no bonus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151635) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:35 PM Author: flirting therapy What would be reasonable pay for this job, w no bonus, 150?
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Date: May 7th, 2013 8:29 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness Because in this market they'll got someone out of biglaw for that or even less. Maybe it won't be V30 CCN top 1/4. But good chance they don't really need that and would be equally fine with V100, T14 top 1/2. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23153359) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:39 PM Author: Odious fighting faggot firefighter Related question: would you take this in-house job? Charlotte, $135K, bonus up to $30K, stock options, counsel title. Very stable but somewhat boring industry. Assume Charlotte biglaw 5th year at the moment. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161266) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:42 PM Author: flirting therapy This is better than my options at this point, I will probably take this, however I am just a 3rd yr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161289) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:45 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle I would say that as a 3rd year, you could probably go back to your firm (or another) after a year if it turns out it was a mistake. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161311) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:51 PM Author: flirting therapy i haven't seen too many people going back to firms after inhouse. perahps they generally stay inhouse. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161364) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:54 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle I was explicitly told it was an option when I left. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161385) |
Date: May 7th, 2013 3:15 PM Author: jet-lagged razzle school international law enforcement agency 8 to 6 for 125k? No. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151516) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:50 PM Author: Autistic black woman that's what I thought (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158821) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:17 PM Author: fragrant khaki house Probably depends how desperately you want to leave the suckage of biglaw right away. If you stay for another year you will at least make some more money but I wouldn't count on it getting you better in-house offers. In fact you run the risk of not being able to get an in-house offer that is as good. Kind of a gut feeling thing at this point I think, how well did you get along with the interviewers etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151522) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:22 PM Author: jet-lagged razzle school international law enforcement agency 8 to 6 is suckage also. Unless his biglaw experience is a higher than average level of suckage, he should stay. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151547) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:25 PM Author: fragrant khaki house 8 to 6 is not suckage if the work is chill, he has a leisurely lunch and doesn't even think about work after 6 and takes days and afternoons here and there. I don't think it really gets much better than that in the private sector unless you are lower level. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151567) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:27 PM Author: flirting therapy 9-6 or 8-5 should be the standard 8 hour day. Looks like this job requires 9 hours
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:28 PM Author: jet-lagged razzle school international law enforcement agency 8 to 6, I count 10. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151589) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 8:20 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness He assumes a 1 hour lunch. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23153276) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 11:04 PM Author: flirting therapy That's a very valid assumption. I have worked prior to law school, I take at least 1 hr lunch everyday. Everyone I know not in a law firm or ibank pretty much always take 1+ hr lunch. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23154579) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:26 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness This is right, generally. In fact, on busy days I schedule an hour for lunch on my Public calendar. Doesn't always work but it mostly does. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158640) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:28 PM Author: jet-lagged razzle school international law enforcement agency I've made it to the office by 8 in biglaw like 5 times in 3 years. Just sayin. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151587) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 8:20 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness How often do you leave at 5pm though?
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Date: May 7th, 2013 11:08 PM Author: flirting therapy I actually leave around 6 or so quite often. There were stretches where I bill literally nothing for weeks. Those are stressful as hell, especially when I first started at the firm.
I gonna say, not knowing when you can leave on any given night is one of the biggest annoyances of biglaw. If you know for example that your work day ends at 8, at least you can look at the clock and be happy for a moment: only 2 more hours left, etc. Nothing like this exist in biglaw. You don't know when this shit is gonna end on any given night. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 12:12 AM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness I wouldn't assume this won't happen in-house though. Not as often or for as long (I haven't had a single all nighter, for example), but plenty of times when you think 6pm but ends up 8pm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23155182) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 8:47 AM Author: flirting therapy fuck, this is depressing. late night is a concern, particularly when you get paid less. can you go into greater detail, how are the late nights (or expectation thereof) different from biglaw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23156539) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:20 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness I mean In-house varies far more than big law. But law is full of fire drills. I still check email right before bed and first thing in the am. For me it is far better than firm life but I definitely wouldn't assume this is like the federal government but with a higher salary. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158604) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:48 PM Author: Bateful knife address obviously this differs from company to company, but i've been at my job for 8 months now and i worked until 7:30 ONCE and that was before closing a major deal in which our outside counsel worked until 3AM. there is also no expectation for reviewing/responding to email after work and on weekends.
if this is a public company, in particular, you already have outside counsel doing the Ks, Qs, and meatier SEC filings and as in-house counsel, you're doing more the oversight. i honestly can't see how you're going to have that many unexpected late nights.
the most deadline driven things in legal are deal closings, whether it's M&A or your company is trying to raise money or sell debt, etc. i just don't see this happening at a food distributor. it is not the same as being at google with an entire army of M&A lawyers buying out any marginally successful app threatening their space or being at a company that's growing rapidly and needs access to money quickly so they're doing a secondary offering (outsourced to law firm anyway). litigation is also deadline-intensive, but again, you have outside counsel for that.
this brings me to the other main factor for the hours -- how much does your company use outside counsel? we use 3 different firms for corporate, lit, and general legal advice on industry regulations/standards. i have a friend in-house at a major fashion retailer that is very cheap and doesn't use outside counsel very much and she has to take to arbitration every time a disgruntled employee at their retail store sues them for discrimination or somebody slips and falls at their store. since she is basically litigation in-house, her hours are rougher and more unpredictable. you should ask this company what is outsourced v. what stays in-house. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:45 PM Author: flirting therapy From my discussion with them, it seems they use 3 firms 1 for litigation, 1 for SEC stuff and another for capital markets, etc.
They seem to do a fair amount of M&A, they seem to do these inhouse too. Senior guy told me he close about 5 deals a year. Maybe the M&As are very small and hence not worth outsourcing. |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:25 PM Author: flirting therapy I have been very slow in recent weeks, which gives me the feeling that they are trying to stealth me. I don't know if that's the case, but one always get the scares in biglaw when work slows down. I think I can last another year, not desperate yet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151571) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:42 PM Author: fragrant khaki house Bad feelings like this in biglaw are often warranted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151685) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 5:48 PM Author: flirting therapy Wrong bro, these feelings are usually unwarranted, but I can't help it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23152375) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 8:50 AM Author: histrionic obsidian office giraffe depends on your firm. at some firms it's absolutely not warranted and just reflects slow biz. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23156547) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:25 PM Author: Sapphire Ape sounds shitty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151572) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:27 PM Author: citrine passionate range it's shit man. If you're making elss than 150k it has to be 9 to 5. make that your rule (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151578) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:33 PM Author: flirting therapy Sounds like a good rule
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:35 PM Author: jet-lagged razzle school international law enforcement agency I think 9 to 6 for 125k could be defend-able. But 8 to 6 would piss me off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151647) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 3:42 PM Author: fragrant khaki house In NYC I guess...don't know about long island. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23151686) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 12:13 AM Author: citrine passionate range this rule is obviously only MFH and similar cities. 100k 9-5 in ARE COUNTRY would be sweet (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23155192) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 8:23 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness Where are you finding these high hours/low pay inhouse shitjobs? Or is that just the market right now?
Also, a places that openly says 8am-6pm every single day will probably have numerous days where you end up there 7-8pm. |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 11:09 PM Author: flirting therapy sounds like market bro. I looked up the employment agreement of the only current lawyer at this company, the GC, he only got paid 165k when he joined the company 1 yr ago. He was a 6th yr at Paul Weiss. LOL. I can't remember if the agreement said whether he's getting bonus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23154618) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 11:45 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle $125k with no bonus is not great. There should be a bonus component.
That said, I don't know the company, so don't know the opportunities to leverage it. I doubt it's a dead end based on how you describe it. I took a similar role (though it's a more developed legal department in a regulated industry) so I'm hopeful it works out. |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 8:31 PM Author: Very tactful library what year are you? that job sounds awful and boring (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23153375) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 11:09 PM Author: flirting therapy 3rd yr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23154626) |
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Date: May 7th, 2013 11:36 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle It sounds like an AGC job. Given there are 2 lawyers there, he'll be handling the proxy statement, SEC filings, board meetings, corporate development, executive comp, benefits, etc.
It's as generalist and interesting as in-house gets, with as much responsibility as possible for someone his year. Most times, people his stage take this job at a big F500, but only get one segment of the business and have no interaction with the GC.
I don't understand what else you expect a corporate lawyer to do in-house (or at a law firm) that is "more interesting"? Are you even a practicing lawyer? |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 12:09 AM Author: flirting therapy Agree w this. I think work isn't bad, but of ourse there are some crappy stuff in there like contract analysis or creating litigation binders. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23155159) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:44 PM Author: arrogant heady stock car hell jeez am i the only one who enjoys contract analysis think of it this way: reading one presents you with ample evidence that even 60yo lawyers at F100s SUCK BALLS and don't know how to practice law AT ALL i can't tell you how many times I've seen Ks come in from bigger companies full of ambiguities hell, even when we were looking at expanded office space, the form L-T agreement failed to define very basic calculations adequately ("for every 1000 feet of leasable space you get Y widgets" was a big offender) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 12:18 AM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness Yeah, I'm curious to see what that guy thinks in-house attorneys generally do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23155218) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:26 PM Author: Very tactful library i have worked in house and at firms. you know what's an interesting in house job? being product counsel for google labs and helping them figure out/mitigate the legal risks associated with self driving cars
you know what's not? what you said |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:28 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness Just be product counsel at Google, bro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158654) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:29 PM Author: Very tactful library (guy who's never worked an interesting job in his life) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158667) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:35 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness I actually work a very interesting In-house position that I would never describe on here because it is a niche practice. However, OP doesn't have the background for it and I know it, so I'm refraining from being an asshole about it and trying to be helpful. Why don't you tell us what you do? Are you even In-house? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158706) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 4:20 PM Author: violent mildly autistic corner i would take this AGC job over a product counsel job. ok maybe not one at google, but that is about as cool as it gets.
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:27 PM Author: Very tactful library also, this is his description of jobs duties -
supply contracts - so basic commercial shit confidentiality agrmt - lol SEC matters - aka roet reporting M and A - lol, for that one acquisition tehy will make every 3 years (edit: and which will be outsourced to a firm anyway) and shitty stuff like contract analysis, risk management and board matters - aka, contract management, paralegal, and take notes/minutes at board meetings
it's a shitty job. xoxohth |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:32 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness You are being obnoxious here. 90% corporate In-house positions are mostly like what OP has been applying for. Many include more commercial contacts but otherwise same crap. Your advice to become products counsel at google or apple isn't realistic or helpful. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158682) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:33 PM Author: Very tactful library you are the one telling me this is an "AGC" job and questioning whether i even practice law (or maybe some other dumbass did). my response is that i have far more legal knowledge, in house knowledge, and general work experience than you.
this is not an AGC job, it's a dead end jr corporate counsel type job. if that's what he wants, great. doesnt make it not a boring job
ur done here |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:39 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness Tell me about my job and background. Then tell us about yours. So far you are talking an awful lot of shit without providing any support. I wonder if this is how you work as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158727) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:47 PM Author: arrogant heady stock car hell lol at jr corp counsel being "dead end" yeah maybe if the guy plans to stay at this company and never lateral jfc |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 3:53 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness But it isn't as cool as being a product counsel at google so why bother? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158846) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 7:42 PM Author: flirting therapy How marketable do you think I will be after staying at this small company doing generalist work for a few years? It's kind of my goal to use this job as a stepping stone to other inhouse jobs.
As mentioned in the OP, my practice at law firm is highly specialized, which limits my geographic flexibility and perhaps also inhouse marketability.
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Date: May 8th, 2013 4:06 PM Author: Bateful knife address i've interviewed for a product counsel job at google and made it pretty far in the process and know people who are product counsel there. it's a bit unfair to compare these 2 jobs b/c it's apples and oranges. one is a generalist position and there are no generalist positions at google. product counsel happens to be one of the more interesting legal jobs at google. meanwhile, you're going to have some corporate lawyers at google just looking at supply chain contracts. would i rather be a generalist or would i rather be an employment lawyer at google reviewing every meritless EEOC claim that comes in? hard to say.
for somebody who is interested in going up the chain in a generalistic role to ultimately become GC, it's better to have the broader exposure to various in-house areas, which is hard to gain when you're going to a large F100 company and your responsibilities are far more limited. particularly if this guy's #2 in legal, it is basically a AGC role.
in any case, i think this guy has an interesting opportunity b/c it is fairly rare to be able to be offered #2 in legal, but obviously this is just an unsexy industry with unsexy legal issues. he could definitely leverage that into an in-house position at a better company in the future though. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 4:07 PM Author: aquamarine out-of-control messiness Good post. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23158939) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 4:51 PM Author: Bateful knife address i've been a lawyer for long enough to know that even that sexy product counsel job isn't all that it's cracked up to be. the position i applied for was product counsel for google ad products, and one responsibility was advising business people on consumer protection laws in various countries. zzzzzzzzzzz.
i mean, it's fucking legal work, i've worked on enough high profile cases (omg, bernie madoff!) to know that even the sexiest of legal work all over the newspapers is still fucking legal work and often times boring. even that guy mitigating legal risk on self-driving cars is going to have tedious tasks sometimes.
being in finance in-house, i now work on stuff that is sometimes complex and interesting (how to access a foreign market through derivative investments when direct investments are impossible), but sometimes my days are spent filling out licensing applications and making routine SEC filings. that's just the nature of legal work.
the best you can hope for is to get an in-house job that will set you up nicely, either for lateralling or staying there long-term with good potential for growth. fuck "interesting" work. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 5:32 PM Author: Cowardly Onyx Old Irish Cottage cr. "interesting work" is boomer OCI flame. unless you get some sad kick out of explaining what you do to someone who's already bored, just find something where you can handle whatever tedious tasks without wanting to killself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23159590) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 5:53 PM Author: High-end adventurous ratface LOL, way to cherrypick a specific job title at Google working on a specific product that like 2 people do.
If you're just a regular junior corporate counsel at Google, the job responsibilities are similarly boring and generic:
https://www.google.com/about/jobs/search/#!t=jo&jid=1124001&
Of course, you're paid better at Google, but that's another story. It's pretty silly to say 99% of in-house work isn't boring. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:32 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle Right. That's a commercial contracts job at Google, which is a far more common type of job, even at Google, than products counsel. And I fail to see how that type of job (other than the fact that it's Google) opens up any more opportunities than the generalist ACG role at a small public company.
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:36 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle He doesn't have the job yet, so he doesn't know exactly what he's going to be doing.
But he'd deal with litigation as it arises, executive compensation, employee benefits, employment agreements, shareholder matters, etc. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:43 PM Author: flirting therapy was told no litigation work, just manage outside firm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161300) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:46 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle Got it. But that's experience managing litigation with outside counsel, which would be good to have on the resume down the road.
In your role, you'll be able to engage in these things as much as you want. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:50 PM Author: flirting therapy Do you think AGC generalist role at small company opens up more inhouse opportunities (non-ibanking) than staying longer at a firm in a specialized field (structured products, etc)?
This is my key concern. I know pay is low and hours are long, I am willing to do this as long as it opens more opportunity. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:58 PM Author: Supple Boistinker Wrinkle I'm sorry, but I don't know. I took my role (which is similar to yours but different industry) because the previous people leveraged it into a GC gig, so I'm hoping I can do the same.
I know that when I left from Corporate at a law firm, I was giving up some in-house paths, primarily M&A-focused roles at F100 companies.
I don't know what kind of gigs specialized structured finance guys move into. |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 5:55 PM Author: gaped internet-worthy abode fuck, no. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23159736) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:56 PM Author: marvelous pink water buffalo Lol no. There are 27 year olds in NJ making that much. They are called state troopers and firemen. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161403) |
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Date: May 8th, 2013 9:59 PM Author: flirting therapy Your wife/gf, if any, probably daydreams about getting bum-fucked by firemen or troopers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2249689&forum_id=2#23161424) |
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Date: May 15th, 2013 1:13 PM Author: High-end adventurous ratface OP, any update?
I also like how non sequitur got pwned in this thread with his elitism. |