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Why Do People Think In-house is So Great?
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:34 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Seems kinda beta. Cost center, so little to no chance to make much money. Even less respect than being a firm lawyer. Still a lawyer so can't be that fun or interesting. What am I missing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574585) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:53 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression I switched to in house a few months ago. Certainly less pay but I get to see my kids now. I guess that makes me beta. But wtf is all that biglaw $$$ for when you don't have time to enjoy life. For me, the tradeoff wasn't worth it even though I would make it to non-equity status this year if I stayed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574763) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: sickened bbw Total comp now? Years out? Avg hours? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574828) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:08 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574892) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:22 PM Author: dashing haunting base What market? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575004) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:29 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression east coast, not NY. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575050) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:30 PM Author: dashing haunting base Is that all in (bonus + options)? In NYC and DC you would be north of 200K. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575055) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:33 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575090) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:34 PM Author: dashing haunting base How many years our are you? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575098) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:36 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression was a sr. associate before jumping ship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575104) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:36 PM Author: dashing haunting base So about 8+ years? You are in the same range as my former colleague. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575112) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:46 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575179) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:47 PM Author: dashing haunting base True. In 3 years time you will likely be able to move to another company and earn that if you don't get promoted to that level internally.
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:51 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression where is your colleague located? What practice area? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575218) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:51 PM Author: dashing haunting base (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575222) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:01 PM Author: dashing haunting base (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575307) |
Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:35 PM Author: Out-of-control pervert 9 to 5 or 6, no weekends for the most part (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574594) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:38 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Right, so it's really just more like a normal boring job instead of biglaw hell, but nothing really great about it in isolation? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574624) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:48 PM Author: Out-of-control pervert that and the pay is pretty good (though obviously not exceptional along a number of relevant points of comparison) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574713) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 8:39 PM Author: burgundy theater This. Many XOers underestimate how hard it is to get high paying jobs that won't ruin your life and that have some semblance of job security. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580160) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:18 PM Author: Vivacious Mahogany Property Cuckoldry Exactly. It's a normal office job that pays more than almost anyone in similar roles without tons of responsibility that gives you plenty of lay prestige. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574970) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 2:24 PM Author: galvanic impressive center milk at most regular companies, people making the same or more than the lawyers will be managers/supervisors, with all the shit that entails (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578290) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 3:42 PM Author: diverse charcoal degenerate sandwich Hell is usually thought of as a bad thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578842) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:00 PM Author: supple red french chef you think big lawyers are showing up at 9?
no one rolls in till 945/10 am
try doing that shit at a real job son |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:14 PM Author: Out-of-control pervert i know how it works. nothing special in a good way about working from 10:30 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. + (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580998) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:59 PM Author: soul-stirring plaza 10 - 8 seems pretty standard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581259) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:38 PM Author: Sable fear-inspiring factory reset button preventive strike yeah, nothing like copping dat 9pm email (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581151) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:42 PM Author: olive stage or waking up nervously at 6 am just to check your phone for overnight emails... but THANK GOD i dont have to be into the office for another 4 hrs.. lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581181) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:57 PM Author: soul-stirring plaza Who does this? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581253) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:50 PM Author: olive stage a ton of people? cuz you work with insane people who will actually send you emails from 10 pm - 6 am quite frequently, especially if they noticed something wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26583144) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:54 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty Me, in biglaw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26583175) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:40 PM Author: Crimson theater stage roast beef 401k match (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574644) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:43 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn For litigators it means never having to go to court which is 180 beyond words. That alone makes it worth the pay cut. Never having to talk to cunt judges is worth 100k a year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574663) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:44 PM Author: Dull fragrant casino becky wtf going to court is the only good part about lit u discovery monkey (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574677) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:46 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn Right, bro. Warming a piss stinking bench for 3 hours while you wait to get chewed out by a judge for 5 minutes is so the best part of anyone's day. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574693) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:47 PM Author: Dull fragrant casino becky sorry didn't know u weren't a FEDERAL COURT LITIGATOR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574706) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:07 PM Author: boyish grizzly gay wizard liquid oxygen Billing 4 hours for 5 minutes of work are my favorite assignments.
Edit, I mean 7 with the double billing. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:13 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn Right, especially when only 10% of the billables end up in your pocket. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574933) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 3:43 PM Author: diverse charcoal degenerate sandwich I like oral argument, particularly appellate. But there isn't a ton of that.
I find civil trials to be pretty boring. (I don't have any meaningful experience with criminal trials.)
Trial preparation is usually brutal. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:44 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Seems like people who hate biglaw obviously get excited about it, but non-lawyers are like 'why do you want to sit around and do bitch paperwork for a career'? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574671) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:47 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn Right, because bossing around outside counsel is "bitch paperwork." Half of in-house work is literally telling your outside counsel how to do their jobs. You are their lord and master. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574705) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 8:46 PM Author: burgundy theater Like biglaw isn't all about bitch paperwork (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580188) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:52 PM Author: olive stage 6 figures, great job security, 9-5, little stress. I DUNO WHY PPL LIKE THAT COMPARED TO LAW FIRM HELL. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574745) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:52 PM Author: Dull fragrant casino becky in house job security is FLAME (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574749) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:54 PM Author: costumed dopamine Eh, not really. Plus, being under threat of not making partner, or being de-equitized is much more humiliating. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574769) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:55 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn Depends how senior you are. A dude with 10+ years experience who fills a real niche is never getting fired. The 3-5 year mid levels brought in mostly to do grunt work will get shitcanned when whatever they are working on drys up. Unfortunately a lot of in-house stuff is in effect project work. They bring you in to work on 1 specific regulatory matter or 1 specific litigation matter and it will run 1-2-3-4 years, but when its done so are you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574784) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:58 PM Author: Dull fragrant casino becky lol. the 20+ year guys command the higher salaries, so when its time to cut legal budget who do you think gets the brunt of it? I know lots of client that shitcanned mid- to senior-level in-house bros (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574801) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression Yeah and do you think it's better being an attorney with 20+ years of experience AND without a book? That's even worse... There is no real job security anywhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574823) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: Dull fragrant casino becky CR the old bros who I know got fired were totally fucked (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574833) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:06 PM Author: costumed dopamine That sounds bad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574871) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:59 PM Author: olive stage It's all relative I guess but there's far more security in-house than at a law firm and it's not even debatable. There's many reasons for this, but off the top of my head there's three big ones.
1. You aren't expected to make money for partners so you really don't affect anyone's bottom line in a tangible way. That means even if you suck at your job you are just an annoyance at the very most. You aren't directly hurting someone's pocketbook or the firm's performance or whatever.
2. On a related point, it's extremely hard to assess job performance without billable hours. It's all subjective. No one really knows what you are working on or how much time you are actually being productive, and you don't really have many people (if anyone) actively scrutinizing your work like partners and clients and opposing parties do at firms.
3. In-house values institutional process above all else. It's a huge bureaucracy to navigate. It can take years to really learn the ins and outs of a company's process, who to contact, what departments need to approve, who is a dick and who is nice, and everything else. That just takes a ton of time to learn and it's extremely valuable to large companies. So that makes tenure very valuable to companies. On the flip side, at firms there is very little bureaucracy. You get work from clients and you do it. That's it. So firms really don't give a shit about tenure. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: Dull fragrant casino becky I guess i misspoke. biglaw may have worse job security, but in house bros aren't safe either (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574826) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:02 PM Author: olive stage no one is 100% safe unless they are in academia or govt or something. but in-house job security is pretty damn far up there as far as job security goes in the corporate world. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574844) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:07 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression the only way to be secure is work for yourself or at least have clients, duh.. Otherwise you are always someone else's bitch. That's the American way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574873) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:08 PM Author: costumed dopamine And it is extremely tough to have portable clients in this day at least from biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574890) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:12 PM Author: boyish grizzly gay wizard liquid oxygen How long have you worked in house? There were mass in house layoffs in 07-09 that just didn't get talked about as much as the firms. When you're a cost center you're the first to go and very painless to cut. Even average billers are very profitable to firms so harder to cut. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574925) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:20 PM Author: olive stage Everyone's job security is tied to the economy. There were mass layoffs at firms 08-09 too despite associates being profit centers so your whole cost center vs. profit center distinction is BS I think. And at any rate, firms are a lot less stable financially than F500 companies so you're more likely to run into layoffs from short term cash problems at a firm than a company anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574987) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:53 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn Hours really arent that much better than biglaw. Its 9-7pm but no weekends ever where I am and its a reliable 9-7pm so no weeks where its 9-1am but its constantly 9-7pm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574764) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:55 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression Varies. My place is barely 35 hrs a week. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574775) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:03 PM Author: olive stage Not true where I am. It's a ghost town by 5 pm. I could probably leave at 4 every day without people noticing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574848) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 6:57 PM Author: stimulating field selfie extreme variation among organizations and most importantly the person to whom one reports (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579721) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:53 PM Author: costumed dopamine In-house gives you stable, reasonable hours at stable, decent pay with an outside (3%?) chance of making really good money ($500k+) someday.
Law firms give you unstable, long hours at stable, good pay with a decent chance (25%?) of making really good ($500k) money someday. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:58 PM Author: mischievous indecent hissy fit 1 in 4 guys graduating from my high school made 500k after working in law firms all the time, nbd, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574802) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: costumed dopamine Please correct me, but if you slog it out, bill 2,700 a year, and show up everyday, won't you probably become at least a service partner? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574829) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: mischievous indecent hissy fit 1L? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574834) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:05 PM Author: costumed dopamine I honestly see most people taking themselves out of the running. Based on my experience (granted, I'm not a partner) I really think if you're a sociable person and can just bill, they'll let you stick around. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574860) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:05 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression No, you MIGHT make it to non-equity level (300K) but then if you don't bring in business, you are just an expensive sr. associate and will be pushed out in a few years. Happened in my firm all the time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574856) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:06 PM Author: costumed dopamine Hmm, I see service type partners stick around, but I might be overestimating how much they make. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574866) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:12 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression a service partner can be an equity partner that still pulls in 1 mil or so, while the true rainmaker will pull in 4-5 times that. But you'd better get ready to suck some serious rainmaker dick to make equity without having a real book of business.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574926) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 6:45 PM Author: burgundy theater Do you see when they don't stick around?
At any rate, this is one of those things that are changing about the practice of law. There is increasingly less tolerance of anything that brings down PPP, which service partners undeniably do. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:59 PM Author: Purple wonderful school mad-dog skullcap No more breaking your day down into 6-minute increments.
Predictability of schedule, and often easier hours. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:01 PM Author: costumed dopamine I'm pretty sure it's always easier hours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574832) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:09 PM Author: Disturbing skinny woman Inhouse is where ambition goes to die.
When you're in college, getting great grades, partying with friends, and you've just scored 170+ on your LSAT, you feel like the world is your oyster. You're going to go to law school and become a hotshot lawyer running a cool firm, jetsetting, or whatever you see on TV. Maybe a sports agent or something. Who cares, your ambition and your talent are both limitless and you are ready.
Then you get to law school and the debt sets in. And the boredom of law school. Your dreams die a little. You realize that no one is actually a jet-setting Ari Gold agent... but you vow to get good grades and go to a big "prestigious" firm, where you'll still make a name for yourself.
You graduate and work at a big firm. And work. And work. And your ambitions die more as you realize that you'll never "make it" here. Sure, you'll make good money, but not earth shattering, big swinging dick money. And you'll never make a name for yourself. The most you can hope for is authoring an obscure article on Law360 about securities litigation scienter.
Then it sets in. You no longer care about "making it big." You just care about living. You're not doing much of it at a big firm, where you work 60 hours a week routinely. It's crushed your soul. So you look to go inhouse.
Inhouse represents the death of ambition. You will be a cog in a machine. An Office Space Milton. You'll never be Ari Gold, and you're ok with that. You'll do paper work for 40 hours a week and collect a paycheck. You're ok with living the rest of your life like a schnook. And once in awhile you'll remember your outlook at age 20. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:13 PM Author: aqua curious business firm water buffalo i'm with you brother.
i feel like for me it would be a decent place to just work the day job, save some money and then figure out the next career move.
the only real hoap for in house big bucks on a shorter timeframe is getting into a PE portfolio company, co-investing and making a couple mil on exit. but most portfolio companies have just 1 lawyer or 0 IME. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:16 PM Author: costumed dopamine There are no clear paths to big money outside of biglaw. It happens, but it's like the lottery. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574956) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:14 PM Author: cerebral brilliant azn I never had much of an outlook at age 20. I knew I would end up exactly the office drone I ended up being. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574939) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:15 PM Author: costumed dopamine Yep, pretty much. It hurts, but so does the prospect of an endless future of billing 2,300 hours a year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574950) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:17 PM Author: sepia corner Ambition is flame -- at least, the kind of ambition you're referring to. The fact that the ambition you're referring to peaks at age 20 is a great sign that it's not really worth pursuing. Much more valuable is ambition to be a good father/husband, build a strong community, lead a healthy life, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574965) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:18 PM Author: costumed dopamine Money has a halo effect for all of those things. Rich guys are seen as pillars of their community. Poor guys - meh. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574978) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:21 PM Author: sepia corner Again, you're thinking like a twenty year old. It's not about how you are perceived (although it's certainly nice to be held in good esteem). It's about rolling up your sleeves and actually devoting your time and mental energy towards something worthwhile rather spending the majority of your life chasing money and prestige. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574999) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:26 PM Author: costumed dopamine I agree. This is the credited life philosophy. It's just difficult slaving away in obscurity sometimes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575024) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:22 PM Author: sepia corner No doubt about that. Any job is going to have elements of tedium, though. I'm convinced the key to surviving it is just having something good to come home to at the end of the day.
TL;DR my entire philosophy on life and careers comes from the "Do it for her" episode of The Simpsons. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:20 PM Author: Out-of-control pervert (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574991) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:22 PM Author: olive stage True, but in-house still >>>>>> law firm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575001) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:28 PM Author: motley whorehouse indirect expression Good post, but you are generalizing too much across all in-house positions. There are plenty of in-house lawyers, especially GCs or director-level counsel, making bank through stock options. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575045) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 1:32 AM Author: chrome university feces I'd be more with you if you made it more obvious that the "ambition" that dies is career ambition and not life ambition because as i got older, i realized "maeking it" wasn't having a bunch of money, it was being happy, and it's generally impossible to make a bunch of money and be happy with yourself unless you invent something granted i got the best of both worlds in the end, so i might justnot be capable of accurately summin dat shit up |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 2:22 PM Author: galvanic impressive center milk ljl, narcissism meets reality (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578280) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 2:53 PM Author: violent round eye It's a great post but honestly this is kinda the natural order of things. As you get older you get more perspective. Living life, seeing your kids, enjoying your friends, living a little less stressfully ... these are things that just become more important. It's the same thing as getting tired of the MFH hustle & bustle as you age.
If this doesn't naturally happen to you, you're probably broken. And that's not necessarily a bad thing -- the most accomplished/ambitious people in the world are probably self-admittedly broken.
This is coming from somebody who left biglaw and didn't even think about in-house because I'm still chasing that pre-law school ambition and went the startup route. I'm just saying I get the in-house folks more every day. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 6:59 PM Author: stimulating field selfie Or maybe you realize there's more to life than defining yourself through primary source of income and land a gig that lets you live very well without sucking up all your chi (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579732) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 9:01 PM Author: burgundy theater The problem here isn't that you fall short and give up, it is that reality for biglaw it's much crappier than people think before they actually get there. Given actual reality, in-house is a much better deal.
Basically, people go to law school, including elite ones, with ridiculous expectations. When they realize their mistakes they make the best of it. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:09 PM Author: topaz odious resort Because it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574898) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:25 PM Author: Sooty marvelous hall ITT: Butthurt BIGLAW lawyers who can't get an interview to an in-house gig. Totally delusional. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575016) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:27 PM Author: dashing haunting base In my market, a colleague just left the job to go work inhouse. Making about 210-220 base. With options and bonus she is looking at about 250K. That's not bad folks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575031) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:01 PM Author: Cordovan alpha range It is not possible to be more beta than a biglaw associate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575306) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:10 PM Author: costumed dopamine This is true. You literally have to accept abuse (with a smile) from anyone and everyone, and do so at 11 pm at night. Some people aren't cut out for this part of the job. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575368) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:14 PM Author: Cordovan alpha range You could actually post the exact same thing about being a bottom at a BDSM club. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575390) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:39 PM Author: burgundy theater (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581160) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 10:42 AM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26577079) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:50 PM Author: dashing haunting base http://www.acc.com/chapters/socal/upload/2011-In-House-Counsel-Compensation-Survey_4-13-11.pdf
From 2011 and from what I understand, the salary ranges have gone up a bit in the last 3 years. 200-250K all in for inhouse is doable once you reach a fairly senior level of experience. |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 11:56 PM Author: dashing haunting base I was pinged on a non-profit inhouse position. Pay was about 120-130K. A for profit public company should be able to better that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26575639) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:55 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty Non-profit is surprisingly underrated on xo. The comp is low six figs and you get to be a dogooder and the work is seriously easy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26583186) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 10:15 PM Author: dashing haunting base If you are so minded, then yeh. My point is that I am surprised by people taking 140-150K from a public company for a corporate inhouse role. Unless you are a 3rd year or so. But a 6th year or more should be able to pull north of 160K (170-190k) base, and the bonus, if you are working at a good company, should bring up to (or very close to) 200K/year. This assumes a fairly large public company and it also assumes an in demand specialization. If you are working at a mid tier company then obviously you will get less. GC at Rand McNally clears about 250-300K (all in) I was told. That is kinda crazy IMO.
A person I know with 10 years of experience is making about 250K all in. And in this persons case it is a small office of attorneys. But they are in a fairly specialized department and will maintain their specialized practice. All in all, this person made out like a bandit. From that vantage point, 300K+ is not out of bounds after a few years. If you are lucky, have an in demand area of expertise, and have enough experience, there is some good coin to be made in house. Not everyone will get it, and as I said, there is luck involved. But making 150K a year is not all inhouse has to offer. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 1:11 AM Author: white parlour Unless you really get off on the technical aspects of biglaw, the work in-house is much more interesting if you aren't a dick who just says no to everything the business ever asks about. Your value-add is a) navigating bureaucracy, as mentioned above, but more importantly, b) building far more detailed and contextualized knowledge about the business, where it fits into the rest of the industry, why certain legal risks are the most threatening, what the medium and long-term strategy is and what legal roadblocks might stand in the way. For the mid-career period it's a much more tolerable day-to-day intellectual existence than being a pedantic twat arguing with other pedantic twats about three lines in a securities filing that probably don't mean dick to your client in the grand scheme of things. This aspect of in-house applies less to litigators than transactional bros, but it's definitely true across the board.
The corollary point is that you have one client, so you better choose pretty damn wisely, and yes, if your one client starts to have problems making money then you're going to feel vulnerable. But if you go to a good, big, stable company with a complex business it's a way better day-to-day life than grinding in a firm.
But if you're Michael Scott, and spent your college years fantasizing about being Ari Gold, then you'd probably prefer the extra 25% of earnings and the smug satisfaction of knowing that you lasted longer than others in a workplace that everyone hates. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 7:02 PM Author: stimulating field selfie agree with the above- those best suited to in house are smart people that have political savvy in addition to book smarts. they naturally gain respect and connections among those in the industry that alleviates some of the anxiety associated with corporate layoffs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579754) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 10:29 AM Author: Glittery patrolman lodge you work for one law firm, and you've worked for them all. aside from contingency firms, the way they make money is all the same (billable hours). your value is based solely on the number of hours you're billing/how much revenue you're generating. that creates too much pressure in the long term and it never stops.
"in house" is not one monolithic whole and each company is different. there are certainly some companies and industries i'd never want to work in (for instance, insurance), but if you get into a good company, a good industry, or jump around until you get to that point, you will make great money and have a great lifestyle. there is quite a bit of satisfaction in being able to go home at 6pm while your outside counsel handles the dirty work. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 10:52 AM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Disagree about the first part. I'm at my 2nd firm and it's very different than the first. Personalities and expectations of both the partners and the clients are completely different. Billing time does obviously suck, though at some firms you don't have to bill much time if you have the client and are originating work. This was also different at my first firm. -- a couple partners there wouldn't bill shit and go golfing or to the beach or whatever and still make $500k+, whereas at my current firm the partners with the clients still bill a lot (both because the client wants them actively involved and the firm wants there higher rate being billed). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26577105) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 10:42 AM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty Because it's FUCKING AMAZING (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26577080) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 3:33 PM Author: Aphrodisiac crusty haunted graveyard regret In house dood here.
I've been here for 6 months and I don't miss a single thing abt big law. With bonus my comp is higher than big law. I no longer have to stress when I am not busy because there is no billable pressure. My company also has flex time so I take most every Friday off.
This really is the holy grail bros. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 3:47 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Still kind of sounds like that's just relative to biglaw hell, not that inhouse is all that great in itself (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578862) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:35 PM Author: chrome university feces Did you miss the "usually don't work on fridays" part? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579116) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:53 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty "It is the Holy Grail"
BigLaw associate: sounds like it is only slightly better |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 6:49 PM Author: burgundy theater Everything is relative to other kinds of work. Yes, it sucks compared to being a trust fund baby and travelling the world with no responsibilities, so what? It is also much better than shoveling horseshit as a farm hand for basically minimum wage or killing chickens or whatever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585089) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:13 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty (guy who has never killed chickens for a living) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585212) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 3:54 PM Author: Bearded comical native travel guidebook do people really view in house lawyers as "cost centers"?
seems like a pretty easy way to look at how much that employee is saving you in legal work vs sending that work out to a firm, no? |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:15 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Yes. Business people view all transactional lawyers as an expense and an obstacle.
Obviously working at a firm doesn't change the business guys perspective, but at least at a firm you drive revenue for your employer (the firm) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:18 PM Author: Bateful weed whacker What about tttax lawyers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579032) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:57 PM Author: soul-stirring plaza Mostly cost center, but not always--you have GE and a few others, and some client facing roles at banks. But even the cost center folks get raises when they go in house. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581251) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:00 AM Author: dashing haunting base Meh, inhouse raises are about 3% per year. Not the pay bumps you get in BIGLAW by any stretch. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581267) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:44 AM Author: soul-stirring plaza True--in house salary growth generally involves moving--that's probably why folks get a bump up when they move in from biglaw. At the coat center places, not a huge bump, but the profit center places can pay pretty well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581465) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:19 PM Author: Bearded comical native travel guidebook So just to be clear, if my business is spending $500k on legal fees a year, and then I hire an in-house lawyer for $200k per year and my spending on legal fees decreases to $100k, I should view that in-house lawyer as a $200k expense? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579037) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:26 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area Well, if you're in the .1% of situations where the savings is that clear and directly tied to hiring you and cutting back on outside counsel, then it's different. At least for the first few months.
If you're in the 99.9% of situations where that savings is not so obvious, the business people view you as a cost center. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:29 PM Author: Glittery patrolman lodge my company hired a partner who accounted for a significant portion of the outside legal bills (sits in on board meetings, etc) b/c it was vastly cheaper to pay him $700-800k/year or whatever he makes than to pay his hourly rate.
the "cost center" goes more toward whether the dept is more suceptible for downsizing than other depts in a downturn, which i agree is an issue, but no more of an issue than with being at a law firm during a downturn and work dries up. in fact, i'd argue the risk of getting layoffpwned is much higher at the law firm than in-house b/c when the economy struggles, a company will first move away from biglaw and hire cheaper outside counsel/move work in-house before firing in-house counsel. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:32 PM Author: Bearded comical native travel guidebook i agree with this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579096) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 9:01 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area I'm more talking about general stature around the office. Top line growth is always more respected.
An associate who's billing and doing good work will have the respect of the office. Granted doing good work while billing a lot of hours is stressful and shitty, but people will respect it. A partner with a good book has a lot of power simply because he's feeding a lot of mouths at the office.
This is why successful traders are big swinging dicks.
Inhouse lawyers are on the other side of the coin. The best they can hope for is to be perceived as saving money and helping the bottom line, and that's an uphill battle |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:12 PM Author: Cordovan alpha range LJL @ comparing some loser billing 3000 hours a year to a successful trader. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580984) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 3:12 PM Author: Glittery patrolman lodge lol yeah, tons of senior associates billing 2500+ year after year certainly command the "respect" of the office when they're told at year 8 that they're not going to make partner and that it's time to move on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26583974) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 7:10 PM Author: stimulating field selfie the key distinction is what's quantifiable.
corporations love to force in house lawyers to negotiate fee discounts and the like from outside counsel, but they often have no mechanism whatsoever to track when an in house dood does work himself to reduce costs (or because many outside lawyers are worthless and only slow things down). i get this because i don't really know how i'd reliably track and quantify it either |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 11:32 AM Author: Claret gunner Usually, a big part of working in-house is selling yourself and touting your accomplishments. You need to find some way to quantify it and put it in a chart on a powerpoint slide labelled "KEY METRICS" or something. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26582632) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 10:21 PM Author: Out-of-control pervert my god dude. blast from the past. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26586732) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 10:22 PM Author: dashing haunting base (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26586742) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:58 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty Depends on the lawyer function. If they are doing the function that would normally be done by outside counsel then they are $500k is cost savings (but still a cost, albeit for a necessary business function). If they are managing outside counsel they are much more of a cost center. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26583201) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 8:52 PM Author: Mind-boggling queen of the night Lots of chill bros and broettes in the middle office, friend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580215) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 9:39 PM Author: Passionate Translucent Elastic Band Area I mean granted it's better than working at a law firm, but it's not worth going to law school for. Nobody in their right mind would aspire to put up with the bs and $$$ of law school, then years of biglaw hell, just to be a middle to possibly upper middle class office monkey (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580502) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 10:19 PM Author: burgundy theater Fair. I feel good about where I ended up but I always tell people that law school isn't worth it these days (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580669) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:07 PM Author: Bateful weed whacker 0L friend of mine says she wants to do biglaw for a couple years then go inhouse. i ljled, never heard anyone express in-house as a career goal before (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580947) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:35 PM Author: Cordovan alpha range So what is worth going to law school for? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581132) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:36 PM Author: Out-of-control pervert professor, judge, ausa, miserable partner fuck i guess (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581140) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:38 PM Author: burgundy theater If you come from a wealthy family that pays for law school and that will hire you to the family law firm and then promises to leave you the firm.
Otherwise, hard to justify the expense. |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 1:00 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty Depends. The ideal in-house job is in a small company, not F500, where there are dozens of lawyers. If you're one of 3-5 lawyers the job is never boring because you will have high profile stuff and won't just be negotiating basic contracts 40 hours a week. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26583219) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 6:36 PM Author: dashing haunting base $150k? I could get $130k working for a not for profit. You must be talking a corporate generalist position, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585030) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:12 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty If the department is <10 lawyers you're all generalists to some extent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585209) |
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Date: October 26th, 2014 12:50 AM Author: dashing haunting base Not necessarily true. Not at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26588200) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 4:15 PM Author: Disturbing skinny woman Tbf, 150k a year isn't really middle class except for NYC and SF. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26584236) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 10:29 PM Author: burgundy theater You can't look at this in a vacuum though. This is what law school costs these days: http://web.law.columbia.edu/admissions/graduate-legal-studies/tuition-fees-and-financial-aid
3 years of that + ugrad. Even in Kansas $150k/year with $250k+ in student loans isn't great. But then you add in the fact that most jobs are in places like Silicon Valley and NYC. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:48 PM Author: dashing haunting base Here is one tip for you law student types. If you are going to go inhouse, try and go in with some kind of niche specialty. If you go in as a "corporate" attorney you will become a generalist. And generalists, my friends, earn less money. Hiring in niche areas also appears to be a bit better. So anything niche like IP, healthcare, Government Contracts, etc. is a good way to go.
I recently turned down an interview with a non-profit that was offering me 130K (base) to start (no bonus). Low, but not much less base salary than what I see generalists getting from public and private, for-profit, companies. The point is that a niche specialty goes a longer way if your goal is inhouse. |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:52 PM Author: olive stage It's impossible to not get pushed into some kind of niche eventually even if you are somewhat of a generalist it just always happens that you get more exp in a certain area or your firm does more of that kind of work or whatever (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581226) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:59 PM Author: dashing haunting base Well the key is to not have a skillset and/or go for a job that will cause you to fall into a role that is going to turn you into some generalist inhouse attorney. Ancedotal evidence suggests that being hired for niche role offers better pay and long run prospects. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581260) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:00 AM Author: Bateful weed whacker So don't do m&a? Seems like that goes against the conventional wisdom (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581269) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 12:03 AM Author: dashing haunting base I am not saying don't do M&A. I am saying that niche specialties might offer better prospects for inhouse pay, depending on the usual factors (location, relevance of practice area to the local economy, experience, etc.). If you do M&A and go and work at a bank, I think one could do very well. But if you are a finance/corp/M&A type who goes to a healthcare company (for example), you are likely going in as a generalist, which is not so great IMHO (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581283) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:05 PM Author: Slate concupiscible persian Because big law sucks (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585182) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:16 PM Author: salmon police squad My impression of in-house:
F500 companies don't always have a bunch of shit for you to do. For maybe a couple months out of the year, you have to really bust your ass and work until 10:00, but the rest of the time, it's just like you're on-call. Whereas biglaw firms always have a shitload of business to get through. Your job is never done, and your bosses are always riding your ass to bill more. |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:18 PM Author: Insecure snowy antidepressant drug kitty Sort of. The big difference is that at a firm everyone's incentive, including yours, is for you to work more. In-house the incentive is for you to do the work that needs done and nothing more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585246) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:23 PM Author: burgundy theater I work at an F500 and have never worked until 10pm. Maybe 8pm and I guess I put in a few hours over the weekends. It definitely gets busier Q1 over say, summer, but busy can strike at any time (last summer was particularly bad). But busy in-house is different than busy in biglaw, where busy means you're pulling all nighters and working 80 hour weeks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585294) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 7:30 PM Author: salmon police squad I was looking at the extreme. Like GM in-house right now may be really busy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585350) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 8:08 PM Author: burgundy theater Sure, it happens and it also depends on the area. Where I am you rarely get crazy fire drills. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585661) |