Why Do People Think In-house is So Great?
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Date: October 24th, 2014 11:00 PM Author: Irradiated carmine messiness mad-dog skullcap
you think big lawyers are showing up at 9?
no one rolls in till 945/10 am
try doing that shit at a real job son
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580900) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 3:43 PM Author: autistic amber puppy
I like oral argument, particularly appellate. But there isn't a ton of that.
I find civil trials to be pretty boring. (I don't have any meaningful experience with criminal trials.)
Trial preparation is usually brutal.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578849) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:59 PM Author: Aqua geriatric home partner
It's all relative I guess but there's far more security in-house than at a law firm and it's not even debatable. There's many reasons for this, but off the top of my head there's three big ones.
1. You aren't expected to make money for partners so you really don't affect anyone's bottom line in a tangible way. That means even if you suck at your job you are just an annoyance at the very most. You aren't directly hurting someone's pocketbook or the firm's performance or whatever.
2. On a related point, it's extremely hard to assess job performance without billable hours. It's all subjective. No one really knows what you are working on or how much time you are actually being productive, and you don't really have many people (if anyone) actively scrutinizing your work like partners and clients and opposing parties do at firms.
3. In-house values institutional process above all else. It's a huge bureaucracy to navigate. It can take years to really learn the ins and outs of a company's process, who to contact, what departments need to approve, who is a dick and who is nice, and everything else. That just takes a ton of time to learn and it's extremely valuable to large companies. So that makes tenure very valuable to companies. On the flip side, at firms there is very little bureaucracy. You get work from clients and you do it. That's it. So firms really don't give a shit about tenure.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574811) |
Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:53 PM Author: Vermilion state
In-house gives you stable, reasonable hours at stable, decent pay with an outside (3%?) chance of making really good money ($500k+) someday.
Law firms give you unstable, long hours at stable, good pay with a decent chance (25%?) of making really good ($500k) money someday.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574757) |
Date: October 23rd, 2014 9:59 PM Author: 180 skinny woman karate
No more breaking your day down into 6-minute increments.
Predictability of schedule, and often easier hours.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574809) |
Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:09 PM Author: hot iridescent shrine
Inhouse is where ambition goes to die.
When you're in college, getting great grades, partying with friends, and you've just scored 170+ on your LSAT, you feel like the world is your oyster. You're going to go to law school and become a hotshot lawyer running a cool firm, jetsetting, or whatever you see on TV. Maybe a sports agent or something. Who cares, your ambition and your talent are both limitless and you are ready.
Then you get to law school and the debt sets in. And the boredom of law school. Your dreams die a little. You realize that no one is actually a jet-setting Ari Gold agent... but you vow to get good grades and go to a big "prestigious" firm, where you'll still make a name for yourself.
You graduate and work at a big firm. And work. And work. And your ambitions die more as you realize that you'll never "make it" here. Sure, you'll make good money, but not earth shattering, big swinging dick money. And you'll never make a name for yourself. The most you can hope for is authoring an obscure article on Law360 about securities litigation scienter.
Then it sets in. You no longer care about "making it big." You just care about living. You're not doing much of it at a big firm, where you work 60 hours a week routinely. It's crushed your soul. So you look to go inhouse.
Inhouse represents the death of ambition. You will be a cog in a machine. An Office Space Milton. You'll never be Ari Gold, and you're ok with that. You'll do paper work for 40 hours a week and collect a paycheck. You're ok with living the rest of your life like a schnook. And once in awhile you'll remember your outlook at age 20.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574897) |
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Date: October 23rd, 2014 10:13 PM Author: startling heaven headpube
i'm with you brother.
i feel like for me it would be a decent place to just work the day job, save some money and then figure out the next career move.
the only real hoap for in house big bucks on a shorter timeframe is getting into a PE portfolio company, co-investing and making a couple mil on exit. but most portfolio companies have just 1 lawyer or 0 IME.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26574932) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 2:53 PM Author: Canary Bearded Meetinghouse Associate
It's a great post but honestly this is kinda the natural order of things. As you get older you get more perspective. Living life, seeing your kids, enjoying your friends, living a little less stressfully ... these are things that just become more important. It's the same thing as getting tired of the MFH hustle & bustle as you age.
If this doesn't naturally happen to you, you're probably broken. And that's not necessarily a bad thing -- the most accomplished/ambitious people in the world are probably self-admittedly broken.
This is coming from somebody who left biglaw and didn't even think about in-house because I'm still chasing that pre-law school ambition and went the startup route. I'm just saying I get the in-house folks more every day.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578506) |
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Date: October 25th, 2014 10:15 PM Author: charcoal house internal respiration
If you are so minded, then yeh. My point is that I am surprised by people taking 140-150K from a public company for a corporate inhouse role. Unless you are a 3rd year or so. But a 6th year or more should be able to pull north of 160K (170-190k) base, and the bonus, if you are working at a good company, should bring up to (or very close to) 200K/year. This assumes a fairly large public company and it also assumes an in demand specialization. If you are working at a mid tier company then obviously you will get less. GC at Rand McNally clears about 250-300K (all in) I was told. That is kinda crazy IMO.
A person I know with 10 years of experience is making about 250K all in. And in this persons case it is a small office of attorneys. But they are in a fairly specialized department and will maintain their specialized practice. All in all, this person made out like a bandit. From that vantage point, 300K+ is not out of bounds after a few years. If you are lucky, have an in demand area of expertise, and have enough experience, there is some good coin to be made in house. Not everyone will get it, and as I said, there is luck involved. But making 150K a year is not all inhouse has to offer.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26586666) |
Date: October 24th, 2014 1:11 AM Author: Hairraiser Deer Antler
Unless you really get off on the technical aspects of biglaw, the work in-house is much more interesting if you aren't a dick who just says no to everything the business ever asks about. Your value-add is a) navigating bureaucracy, as mentioned above, but more importantly, b) building far more detailed and contextualized knowledge about the business, where it fits into the rest of the industry, why certain legal risks are the most threatening, what the medium and long-term strategy is and what legal roadblocks might stand in the way. For the mid-career period it's a much more tolerable day-to-day intellectual existence than being a pedantic twat arguing with other pedantic twats about three lines in a securities filing that probably don't mean dick to your client in the grand scheme of things. This aspect of in-house applies less to litigators than transactional bros, but it's definitely true across the board.
The corollary point is that you have one client, so you better choose pretty damn wisely, and yes, if your one client starts to have problems making money then you're going to feel vulnerable. But if you go to a good, big, stable company with a complex business it's a way better day-to-day life than grinding in a firm.
But if you're Michael Scott, and spent your college years fantasizing about being Ari Gold, then you'd probably prefer the extra 25% of earnings and the smug satisfaction of knowing that you lasted longer than others in a workplace that everyone hates.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26576028) |
Date: October 24th, 2014 10:29 AM Author: white cruel-hearted pistol
you work for one law firm, and you've worked for them all. aside from contingency firms, the way they make money is all the same (billable hours). your value is based solely on the number of hours you're billing/how much revenue you're generating. that creates too much pressure in the long term and it never stops.
"in house" is not one monolithic whole and each company is different. there are certainly some companies and industries i'd never want to work in (for instance, insurance), but if you get into a good company, a good industry, or jump around until you get to that point, you will make great money and have a great lifestyle. there is quite a bit of satisfaction in being able to go home at 6pm while your outside counsel handles the dirty work.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26577047) |
Date: October 24th, 2014 3:33 PM Author: indigo trust fund
In house dood here.
I've been here for 6 months and I don't miss a single thing abt big law. With bonus my comp is higher than big law. I no longer have to stress when I am not busy because there is no billable pressure. My company also has flex time so I take most every Friday off.
This really is the holy grail bros.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578760) |
Date: October 24th, 2014 3:54 PM Author: Medicated Elite Coldplay Fan Death Wish
do people really view in house lawyers as "cost centers"?
seems like a pretty easy way to look at how much that employee is saving you in legal work vs sending that work out to a firm, no?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26578907) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 4:26 PM Author: Blue diverse giraffe
Well, if you're in the .1% of situations where the savings is that clear and directly tied to hiring you and cutting back on outside counsel, then it's different. At least for the first few months.
If you're in the 99.9% of situations where that savings is not so obvious, the business people view you as a cost center.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26579075) |
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Date: October 24th, 2014 9:01 PM Author: Blue diverse giraffe
I'm more talking about general stature around the office. Top line growth is always more respected.
An associate who's billing and doing good work will have the respect of the office. Granted doing good work while billing a lot of hours is stressful and shitty, but people will respect it. A partner with a good book has a lot of power simply because he's feeding a lot of mouths at the office.
This is why successful traders are big swinging dicks.
Inhouse lawyers are on the other side of the coin. The best they can hope for is to be perceived as saving money and helping the bottom line, and that's an uphill battle
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26580253) |
Date: October 24th, 2014 11:48 PM Author: charcoal house internal respiration
Here is one tip for you law student types. If you are going to go inhouse, try and go in with some kind of niche specialty. If you go in as a "corporate" attorney you will become a generalist. And generalists, my friends, earn less money. Hiring in niche areas also appears to be a bit better. So anything niche like IP, healthcare, Government Contracts, etc. is a good way to go.
I recently turned down an interview with a non-profit that was offering me 130K (base) to start (no bonus). Low, but not much less base salary than what I see generalists getting from public and private, for-profit, companies. The point is that a niche specialty goes a longer way if your goal is inhouse.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26581208) |
Date: October 25th, 2014 7:16 PM Author: vengeful juggernaut
My impression of in-house:
F500 companies don't always have a bunch of shit for you to do. For maybe a couple months out of the year, you have to really bust your ass and work until 10:00, but the rest of the time, it's just like you're on-call. Whereas biglaw firms always have a shitload of business to get through. Your job is never done, and your bosses are always riding your ass to bill more.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2707889&forum_id=2#26585235) |
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