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Businessweek: "Why so Many LS students failed the Bar in 2014"

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-11-18/why-so-many-...
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
tl;dr: schools significantly drop admissions standards, bar ...
Beta philosopher-king
  11/24/14
BUT BUT BUT THE LSAT IS A POOR PREDICTOR OF BAR PASSAGE ...
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
The bar might be the only thing that isn't fraud in the lega...
multi-colored sweet tailpipe
  11/24/14
the LSAT also isn't fraud breh
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
Reading comp is joke fraud/creamlie. LSAT should be 100% log...
multi-colored sweet tailpipe
  11/24/14
(guy who thinks you can practice law without having a very s...
Beta philosopher-king
  11/24/14
...
Floppy snowy principal's office
  11/24/14
LOOOOL logic games is the easiest section to improve. Yo...
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
Ambiguity is legal cancer. Knowing how to parse that garbage...
multi-colored sweet tailpipe
  11/24/14
knowing how to parse it = knowing how to avoid it
Beta philosopher-king
  11/24/14
Ambiguity is a fact of life. Sorry about your tiny pink abil...
sinister reading party
  11/24/14
(terrible lawyer)
multi-colored sweet tailpipe
  11/24/14
Getting to Maybe, Chp. 1, pg. 17. "We said at the be...
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
O, WAS!
multi-colored sweet tailpipe
  11/24/14
CR
sinister reading party
  11/24/14
LOL. Yeah, I never spend much time worrying about ambiguous...
apoplectic brindle boistinker senate
  11/24/14
"But man is it useful to have logic games training to f...
cracking house crotch
  11/24/14
Ambiguous language in a contract shouldn't exist. QED.
multi-colored sweet tailpipe
  11/24/14
Therefore, it doesn't. Right, guys?
Sapphire place of business
  11/24/14
Lol
lake gas station
  11/24/14
...
sinister reading party
  11/24/14
(FOB with biglaw dreams)
Sapphire place of business
  11/24/14
while it may set an arbitrary hurdle you have to pass, it's ...
Beta philosopher-king
  11/24/14
The bar remains a significant hurdle because it is meant to ...
sinister reading party
  11/24/14
Opens another law school, allows 135 LSAT score havers, redu...
Wine appetizing locale
  11/24/14
Not if those 135 LSAT students never pass the bar
sinister reading party
  11/24/14
Can someone summarize this crap? Is it just because TTT grad...
Claret brethren jap
  11/24/14
yes
Beta philosopher-king
  11/24/14
The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that p...
splenetic idea he suggested
  11/24/14
The MBE was fucked this year, but the NCBE will never admit ...
contagious rehab
  11/24/14
(Cooley grad)
pearly greedy trailer park gaming laptop
  11/24/14
Naw, it was fucked up this year, breh, honestly.
Drunken Roast Beef Step-uncle's House
  11/24/14
(It is every year)
pearly greedy trailer park gaming laptop
  11/24/14
It's a hard test, but the mbe this year was unusual.
contagious rehab
  11/24/14
Do we have any info on state specific portions, like the ess...
Sapphire place of business
  11/24/14
What the hell is going to happen when the people that they a...
maize hairy legs knife
  11/24/14
Lots of loans that will never be paid back.
contagious rehab
  11/24/14
2016: malpractice rates increase why?
pearly greedy trailer park gaming laptop
  11/24/14
Did anyone else notice that they interviewed Nancy Leong?
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
...
Plum Menage
  11/24/14
...
Sooty cerebral dilemma
  11/24/14
Who emails their professor to cry to them about the bar bein...
provocative piazza fanboi
  11/24/14
I suspect this is the reason OP shared this article with us.
stimulating space
  11/24/14
ttt professors find this NOT ok. we can expect countless scr...
sable alcoholic karate blood rage
  11/24/14
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/s...
Hyperventilating stage
  11/24/14
the test should be even harder
coral motley sandwich
  11/24/14
cr
Aromatic lay pisswyrm
  11/24/14
...
laughsome codepig useless brakes
  11/24/14
cr, there are way too many incredibly stupid attorneys out t...
aphrodisiac depressive
  11/24/14
tbf, the entire legal system should be thrown on its head. b...
balding brass business firm
  11/24/14
the examsoft thing is hilarious as hell. it cost hundreds of...
balding brass business firm
  11/24/14
...
rose crusty national security agency national
  11/25/14
...
Mind-boggling range
  11/25/14
the statistical trend discussed in this article is directly ...
Turquoise Theatre Regret
  11/25/14
Mbe was fucked this year.
swollen hairraiser ceo private investor
  11/25/14
...
splenetic idea he suggested
  02/19/18


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:41 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-11-18/why-so-many-law-students-failed-the-bar-exam-in-2014

The most recent bar exam test results are in, and they are ugly. In several states, people who took the bar in July were more likely to fail than those who took it last year, and scores on one portion of the test dropped to their lowest point in 10 years.

Are America’s law graduates really getting dumber? The people who put together the bar exam seem to think so.

The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that prepares one of the state-specific multiple-choice sections in which scores dropped dramatically, sent a curt message to law school deans in October. “The results are correct,” wrote Erica Moeser, the group’s president, in an Oct. 23 memo. “The group that sat in July 2014 was less able than the group that sat in July 2013,”

It’s technically true that this year’s crop of grads was “less able” than before, if you use their pre-law-school test scores as a proxy for their smarts. The median LSAT score among students at American law schools has declined every year from 2010 to 2013, according to an analysis by Jerry Organ, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas. Last year, Organ found, law schools admitted 50 percent more students with low LSAT scores than they did three years ago.

Those numbers suggest that students might have been less prepared, but the figures may not be dramatic enough to explain this year’s bar results. Organ analyzed how LSAT scores have tracked with scores on the exam in the past, and he found that this year’s J.D.s should have performed slightly worse. Instead, they bombed.

Organ and additional law professors point to another culprit: a software glitch that affected test-takers for hours in July. At the end of the first day of testing, people who took the test in one of 43 states in which test company Examsoft administers the bar exam were unable to upload their answers for hours, stretching into late evening. The error eventually led states to extend the upload deadline; students went back to work on the test the following day. Examsoft said no answers were lost, but many feel that the time spent contending with software issues and the anxiety that resulted may have hurt students’ performance on the rest of the test.

“I was up until 1:00 a.m. trying and praying for my exam to go through. When I finally did get to bed, I barely got 2 hours rest because I had to be up at 5:00 a.m. to start day two of the bar,” one test-taker was quoted as saying in an August lawsuit that law grads filed against Examsoft.

Nancy Leong, a law professor at the University of Denver, remembers getting dozens of texts, e-mails and phone calls from students “in various degrees of panic” the night that Examsoft went on the fritz. One women cried for 20 minutes, Leong says. Another asked whether she should cancel the test that night, given how badly she expected to do in the morning. Blaming the drop in scores exclusively on a less-competent group of test-takers ignores how the glitch affected people, she says. “I think that it’s insulting.”

For its part, Examsoft points out that scores dipped everywhere, including such states as Virginia and Arizona that didn’t use the company’s software. The bug may have caused a bout of future-lawyer hysteria, but observers note it shouldn’t eclipse the quality problem law schools face.

As fewer people apply to law school, many programs have accepted less-qualified applicants in order to keep class sizes the same and to sustain their bottom line, says Derek Muller, a law professor at Pepperdine University. “This drop, while bigger than expected, is just a sign for what’s going to come for law schools as the incoming classes continue to decline in quality.”

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784069)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:46 AM
Author: Beta philosopher-king

tl;dr: schools significantly drop admissions standards, bar passage rates drop, why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784080)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:50 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

BUT BUT BUT THE LSAT IS A POOR PREDICTOR OF BAR PASSAGE

(shitlib)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784093)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:49 AM
Author: multi-colored sweet tailpipe

The bar might be the only thing that isn't fraud in the legal profession. How has it avoided become a politically correct moneygrab where every millenial gets a trophy?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784087)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:50 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

the LSAT also isn't fraud breh

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784095)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:51 AM
Author: multi-colored sweet tailpipe

Reading comp is joke fraud/creamlie. LSAT should be 100% logic games.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784100)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Beta philosopher-king

(guy who thinks you can practice law without having a very strong command of the english language)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784106)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Floppy snowy principal's office



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784107)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

LOOOOL

logic games is the easiest section to improve. You can basically get -0 or at most -2 just by SHEER | GRINDING.

Reading comprehension is ambiguous, with at least two answers that appear true. Test takers have to identify subtle variations in language to arrive at the credited response, and this takes practice, mental discipline, and intelligence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:55 AM
Author: multi-colored sweet tailpipe

Ambiguity is legal cancer. Knowing how to parse that garbage is as useful as a doctor knowing how to operate a gas chamber.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784112)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:57 AM
Author: Beta philosopher-king

knowing how to parse it = knowing how to avoid it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784121)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 5:20 AM
Author: sinister reading party

Ambiguity is a fact of life. Sorry about your tiny pink ability to grapple with the nature of reality.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784150)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:03 AM
Author: multi-colored sweet tailpipe

(terrible lawyer)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784467)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:07 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

Getting to Maybe, Chp. 1, pg. 17.

"We said at the beginning of the chapter that the most important lesson we could teach you about law exams is that it's what you do with what you find inside the question that counts the most. The second most important lesson should be apparent from the foregoing discussion: What you will find inside the typical law exam question is ambiguity, and we think that learning to live with it — indeed, learning to search it out and exploit it — is the key to doing well in law school exams."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784482)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:03 AM
Author: multi-colored sweet tailpipe

O, WAS!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784693)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:02 PM
Author: sinister reading party

CR

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785300)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:09 AM
Author: apoplectic brindle boistinker senate

LOL. Yeah, I never spend much time worrying about ambiguous language in a contract, statute or case. But man is it useful to have logic games training to fall back on when I decide where to sit at the table in the conference room before the meeting starts.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784715)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:27 AM
Author: cracking house crotch

"But man is it useful to have logic games training to fall back on when I decide where to sit at the table in the conference room before the meeting starts. "

180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784779)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:28 AM
Author: multi-colored sweet tailpipe

Ambiguous language in a contract shouldn't exist. QED.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784784)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:53 AM
Author: Sapphire place of business

Therefore, it doesn't.

Right, guys?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784885)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: lake gas station

Lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784988)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:02 PM
Author: sinister reading party



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785302)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:52 AM
Author: Sapphire place of business

(FOB with biglaw dreams)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784880)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:52 AM
Author: Beta philosopher-king

while it may set an arbitrary hurdle you have to pass, it's fucking useless. it has no bearing on your ability to practice. it's antiquated in its insistence you know the very basics of every area of practice when you will only actually work in one or two. may as well just use LSAT scores if you want to keep dumbs out. law schools are supposed to serve that purpose, but the ABA fucked that up and now you can find a school to take you if you score at least a 130 and are willing to pay (borrow).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784104)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 5:23 AM
Author: sinister reading party

The bar remains a significant hurdle because it is meant to be a barrier to entry for the legal profession. Lowering bar standards directly reduces the value of every practicing lawyer's human capital. Which is (obviously) counter to the interest of those in control of bar standards.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784152)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:00 AM
Author: Wine appetizing locale

Opens another law school, allows 135 LSAT score havers, reduces the value of every practicing lawyer's human capital

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784919)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: sinister reading party

Not if those 135 LSAT students never pass the bar

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785308)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:51 AM
Author: Claret brethren jap

Can someone summarize this crap? Is it just because TTT grads are flooding the market?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784101)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:52 AM
Author: Beta philosopher-king

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784105)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:29 AM
Author: splenetic idea he suggested

The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that prepares one of the state-specific multiple-choice sections in which scores dropped dramatically, sent a curt message to law school deans in October. “The results are correct,” wrote Erica Moeser, the group’s president, in an Oct. 23 memo. “The group that sat in July 2014 was less able than the group that sat in July 2013,”

It’s technically true that this year’s crop of grads was “less able” than before, if you use their pre-law-school test scores as a proxy for their smarts. The median LSAT score among students at American law schools has declined every year from 2010 to 2013, according to an analysis by Jerry Organ, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas. Last year, Organ found, law schools admitted 50 percent more students with low LSAT scores than they did three years ago.

This is retarded. The people mentioned above are still in law school, and won't take the bar for another couple years. Don't know what you'd mention it, but in next part authort contradicts by talking about the important stat showing perhaps a slight decline in standards.

Admissions standards did not decline much between 2010 and 2011, but they did a lot between 11 and 12 and especially to 13 and 14. Other people have done an analysis using the correct numbers to show that the NCBE's is somewhat unconvincing. I'm open to someone pointing to certain weaknesses in c/o 2014, but going off of simple LSAT/GPA medians isn't going to do it since those were virtually the same between '13 and '14.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784377)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:46 AM
Author: contagious rehab

The MBE was fucked this year, but the NCBE will never admit it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784415)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:47 AM
Author: pearly greedy trailer park gaming laptop

(Cooley grad)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784419)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:49 AM
Author: Drunken Roast Beef Step-uncle's House

Naw, it was fucked up this year, breh, honestly.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784426)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:53 AM
Author: pearly greedy trailer park gaming laptop

(It is every year)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784653)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:03 AM
Author: contagious rehab

It's a hard test, but the mbe this year was unusual.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784931)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:55 AM
Author: Sapphire place of business

Do we have any info on state specific portions, like the essays?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784894)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:30 AM
Author: maize hairy legs knife

What the hell is going to happen when the people that they are admitting now take the bar?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784380)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:47 AM
Author: contagious rehab

Lots of loans that will never be paid back.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784418)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:39 AM
Author: pearly greedy trailer park gaming laptop

2016: malpractice rates increase

why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784399)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:48 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

Did anyone else notice that they interviewed Nancy Leong?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784425)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:44 AM
Author: Plum Menage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784627)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:00 AM
Author: Sooty cerebral dilemma



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784922)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:21 AM
Author: provocative piazza fanboi

Who emails their professor to cry to them about the bar being so hard? I am convinced Leong just lies about stuff.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785053)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: stimulating space

I suspect this is the reason OP shared this article with us.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785309)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:50 AM
Author: sable alcoholic karate blood rage

ttt professors find this NOT ok. we can expect countless screeds absolutely proving that admitting weaker and weaker candidates has no effect on bar passage.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784430)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:53 AM
Author: Hyperventilating stage

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/stjohn80&div=9&id=&page=

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784438)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:34 AM
Author: coral motley sandwich

the test should be even harder

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784584)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:47 AM
Author: Aromatic lay pisswyrm

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784844)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:56 AM
Author: laughsome codepig useless brakes



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784902)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:23 AM
Author: aphrodisiac depressive

cr, there are way too many incredibly stupid attorneys out there who can't provide competent service to their clients.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785066)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:26 AM
Author: balding brass business firm

tbf, the entire legal system should be thrown on its head. boomers set adrift, term limits for judges, end of the billable hour, one year law school, getting rid of 100+ law schools, etc. but a harder test wouldnt hurt either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785085)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:24 AM
Author: balding brass business firm

the examsoft thing is hilarious as hell. it cost hundreds of dollars per head to use and didn't work. Just boomers booming their asses off and millennials whining their asses off.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785074)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 1:49 AM
Author: rose crusty national security agency national



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26793987)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 3:00 PM
Author: Mind-boggling range



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26797941)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 2:59 PM
Author: Turquoise Theatre Regret

the statistical trend discussed in this article is directly responsible for doobs ending up at a T50 garbage school instead of a true TTT like wayne state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26797930)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 3:11 PM
Author: swollen hairraiser ceo private investor

Mbe was fucked this year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26798016)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 19th, 2018 6:54 PM
Author: splenetic idea he suggested



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#35439737)