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Businessweek: "Why so Many LS students failed the Bar in 2014"

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-11-18/why-so-many-...
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
tl;dr: schools significantly drop admissions standards, bar ...
dead cheese-eating stock car national
  11/24/14
BUT BUT BUT THE LSAT IS A POOR PREDICTOR OF BAR PASSAGE ...
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
The bar might be the only thing that isn't fraud in the lega...
Emerald hospital
  11/24/14
the LSAT also isn't fraud breh
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
Reading comp is joke fraud/creamlie. LSAT should be 100% log...
Emerald hospital
  11/24/14
(guy who thinks you can practice law without having a very s...
dead cheese-eating stock car national
  11/24/14
...
Titillating federal kitchen milk
  11/24/14
LOOOOL logic games is the easiest section to improve. Yo...
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
Ambiguity is legal cancer. Knowing how to parse that garbage...
Emerald hospital
  11/24/14
knowing how to parse it = knowing how to avoid it
dead cheese-eating stock car national
  11/24/14
Ambiguity is a fact of life. Sorry about your tiny pink abil...
Glittery slimy goal in life
  11/24/14
(terrible lawyer)
Emerald hospital
  11/24/14
Getting to Maybe, Chp. 1, pg. 17. "We said at the be...
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
O, WAS!
Emerald hospital
  11/24/14
CR
Glittery slimy goal in life
  11/24/14
LOL. Yeah, I never spend much time worrying about ambiguous...
curious theatre toilet seat
  11/24/14
"But man is it useful to have logic games training to f...
Spruce chad meetinghouse
  11/24/14
Ambiguous language in a contract shouldn't exist. QED.
Emerald hospital
  11/24/14
Therefore, it doesn't. Right, guys?
Deranged scarlet institution
  11/24/14
Lol
talented bawdyhouse
  11/24/14
...
Glittery slimy goal in life
  11/24/14
(FOB with biglaw dreams)
Deranged scarlet institution
  11/24/14
while it may set an arbitrary hurdle you have to pass, it's ...
dead cheese-eating stock car national
  11/24/14
The bar remains a significant hurdle because it is meant to ...
Glittery slimy goal in life
  11/24/14
Opens another law school, allows 135 LSAT score havers, redu...
crimson office
  11/24/14
Not if those 135 LSAT students never pass the bar
Glittery slimy goal in life
  11/24/14
Can someone summarize this crap? Is it just because TTT grad...
Bistre rebellious private investor ticket booth
  11/24/14
yes
dead cheese-eating stock car national
  11/24/14
The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that p...
soggy jet-lagged church building rigpig
  11/24/14
The MBE was fucked this year, but the NCBE will never admit ...
Hateful yellow halford new version
  11/24/14
(Cooley grad)
Marvelous chapel coffee pot
  11/24/14
Naw, it was fucked up this year, breh, honestly.
180 Big-titted Headpube
  11/24/14
(It is every year)
Marvelous chapel coffee pot
  11/24/14
It's a hard test, but the mbe this year was unusual.
Hateful yellow halford new version
  11/24/14
Do we have any info on state specific portions, like the ess...
Deranged scarlet institution
  11/24/14
What the hell is going to happen when the people that they a...
balding gas station
  11/24/14
Lots of loans that will never be paid back.
Hateful yellow halford new version
  11/24/14
2016: malpractice rates increase why?
Marvelous chapel coffee pot
  11/24/14
Did anyone else notice that they interviewed Nancy Leong?
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
...
Histrionic Underhanded Fortuitous Meteor
  11/24/14
...
brass personal credit line
  11/24/14
Who emails their professor to cry to them about the bar bein...
Disgusting thriller space kitty
  11/24/14
I suspect this is the reason OP shared this article with us.
Sapphire temple
  11/24/14
ttt professors find this NOT ok. we can expect countless scr...
Rambunctious Background Story Library
  11/24/14
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/s...
Stirring Costumed Home
  11/24/14
the test should be even harder
swashbuckling fiercely-loyal tanning salon toaster
  11/24/14
cr
Heady brunch
  11/24/14
...
passionate location turdskin
  11/24/14
cr, there are way too many incredibly stupid attorneys out t...
slippery insanely creepy nibblets jew
  11/24/14
tbf, the entire legal system should be thrown on its head. b...
Diverse well-lubricated pit
  11/24/14
the examsoft thing is hilarious as hell. it cost hundreds of...
Diverse well-lubricated pit
  11/24/14
...
Rusted sanctuary mother
  11/25/14
...
Nudist address legend
  11/25/14
the statistical trend discussed in this article is directly ...
Domesticated corner
  11/25/14
Mbe was fucked this year.
Judgmental shrine double fault
  11/25/14
...
soggy jet-lagged church building rigpig
  02/19/18


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:41 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-11-18/why-so-many-law-students-failed-the-bar-exam-in-2014

The most recent bar exam test results are in, and they are ugly. In several states, people who took the bar in July were more likely to fail than those who took it last year, and scores on one portion of the test dropped to their lowest point in 10 years.

Are America’s law graduates really getting dumber? The people who put together the bar exam seem to think so.

The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that prepares one of the state-specific multiple-choice sections in which scores dropped dramatically, sent a curt message to law school deans in October. “The results are correct,” wrote Erica Moeser, the group’s president, in an Oct. 23 memo. “The group that sat in July 2014 was less able than the group that sat in July 2013,”

It’s technically true that this year’s crop of grads was “less able” than before, if you use their pre-law-school test scores as a proxy for their smarts. The median LSAT score among students at American law schools has declined every year from 2010 to 2013, according to an analysis by Jerry Organ, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas. Last year, Organ found, law schools admitted 50 percent more students with low LSAT scores than they did three years ago.

Those numbers suggest that students might have been less prepared, but the figures may not be dramatic enough to explain this year’s bar results. Organ analyzed how LSAT scores have tracked with scores on the exam in the past, and he found that this year’s J.D.s should have performed slightly worse. Instead, they bombed.

Organ and additional law professors point to another culprit: a software glitch that affected test-takers for hours in July. At the end of the first day of testing, people who took the test in one of 43 states in which test company Examsoft administers the bar exam were unable to upload their answers for hours, stretching into late evening. The error eventually led states to extend the upload deadline; students went back to work on the test the following day. Examsoft said no answers were lost, but many feel that the time spent contending with software issues and the anxiety that resulted may have hurt students’ performance on the rest of the test.

“I was up until 1:00 a.m. trying and praying for my exam to go through. When I finally did get to bed, I barely got 2 hours rest because I had to be up at 5:00 a.m. to start day two of the bar,” one test-taker was quoted as saying in an August lawsuit that law grads filed against Examsoft.

Nancy Leong, a law professor at the University of Denver, remembers getting dozens of texts, e-mails and phone calls from students “in various degrees of panic” the night that Examsoft went on the fritz. One women cried for 20 minutes, Leong says. Another asked whether she should cancel the test that night, given how badly she expected to do in the morning. Blaming the drop in scores exclusively on a less-competent group of test-takers ignores how the glitch affected people, she says. “I think that it’s insulting.”

For its part, Examsoft points out that scores dipped everywhere, including such states as Virginia and Arizona that didn’t use the company’s software. The bug may have caused a bout of future-lawyer hysteria, but observers note it shouldn’t eclipse the quality problem law schools face.

As fewer people apply to law school, many programs have accepted less-qualified applicants in order to keep class sizes the same and to sustain their bottom line, says Derek Muller, a law professor at Pepperdine University. “This drop, while bigger than expected, is just a sign for what’s going to come for law schools as the incoming classes continue to decline in quality.”

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784069)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:46 AM
Author: dead cheese-eating stock car national

tl;dr: schools significantly drop admissions standards, bar passage rates drop, why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784080)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:50 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

BUT BUT BUT THE LSAT IS A POOR PREDICTOR OF BAR PASSAGE

(shitlib)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784093)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:49 AM
Author: Emerald hospital

The bar might be the only thing that isn't fraud in the legal profession. How has it avoided become a politically correct moneygrab where every millenial gets a trophy?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784087)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:50 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

the LSAT also isn't fraud breh

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784095)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:51 AM
Author: Emerald hospital

Reading comp is joke fraud/creamlie. LSAT should be 100% logic games.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784100)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: dead cheese-eating stock car national

(guy who thinks you can practice law without having a very strong command of the english language)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784106)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Titillating federal kitchen milk



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784107)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

LOOOOL

logic games is the easiest section to improve. You can basically get -0 or at most -2 just by SHEER | GRINDING.

Reading comprehension is ambiguous, with at least two answers that appear true. Test takers have to identify subtle variations in language to arrive at the credited response, and this takes practice, mental discipline, and intelligence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:55 AM
Author: Emerald hospital

Ambiguity is legal cancer. Knowing how to parse that garbage is as useful as a doctor knowing how to operate a gas chamber.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784112)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:57 AM
Author: dead cheese-eating stock car national

knowing how to parse it = knowing how to avoid it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784121)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 5:20 AM
Author: Glittery slimy goal in life

Ambiguity is a fact of life. Sorry about your tiny pink ability to grapple with the nature of reality.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784150)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:03 AM
Author: Emerald hospital

(terrible lawyer)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784467)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:07 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

Getting to Maybe, Chp. 1, pg. 17.

"We said at the beginning of the chapter that the most important lesson we could teach you about law exams is that it's what you do with what you find inside the question that counts the most. The second most important lesson should be apparent from the foregoing discussion: What you will find inside the typical law exam question is ambiguity, and we think that learning to live with it — indeed, learning to search it out and exploit it — is the key to doing well in law school exams."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784482)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:03 AM
Author: Emerald hospital

O, WAS!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784693)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:02 PM
Author: Glittery slimy goal in life

CR

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785300)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:09 AM
Author: curious theatre toilet seat

LOL. Yeah, I never spend much time worrying about ambiguous language in a contract, statute or case. But man is it useful to have logic games training to fall back on when I decide where to sit at the table in the conference room before the meeting starts.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784715)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:27 AM
Author: Spruce chad meetinghouse

"But man is it useful to have logic games training to fall back on when I decide where to sit at the table in the conference room before the meeting starts. "

180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784779)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:28 AM
Author: Emerald hospital

Ambiguous language in a contract shouldn't exist. QED.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784784)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:53 AM
Author: Deranged scarlet institution

Therefore, it doesn't.

Right, guys?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784885)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: talented bawdyhouse

Lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784988)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:02 PM
Author: Glittery slimy goal in life



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785302)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:52 AM
Author: Deranged scarlet institution

(FOB with biglaw dreams)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784880)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:52 AM
Author: dead cheese-eating stock car national

while it may set an arbitrary hurdle you have to pass, it's fucking useless. it has no bearing on your ability to practice. it's antiquated in its insistence you know the very basics of every area of practice when you will only actually work in one or two. may as well just use LSAT scores if you want to keep dumbs out. law schools are supposed to serve that purpose, but the ABA fucked that up and now you can find a school to take you if you score at least a 130 and are willing to pay (borrow).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784104)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 5:23 AM
Author: Glittery slimy goal in life

The bar remains a significant hurdle because it is meant to be a barrier to entry for the legal profession. Lowering bar standards directly reduces the value of every practicing lawyer's human capital. Which is (obviously) counter to the interest of those in control of bar standards.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784152)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:00 AM
Author: crimson office

Opens another law school, allows 135 LSAT score havers, reduces the value of every practicing lawyer's human capital

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784919)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: Glittery slimy goal in life

Not if those 135 LSAT students never pass the bar

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785308)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:51 AM
Author: Bistre rebellious private investor ticket booth

Can someone summarize this crap? Is it just because TTT grads are flooding the market?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784101)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:52 AM
Author: dead cheese-eating stock car national

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784105)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:29 AM
Author: soggy jet-lagged church building rigpig

The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that prepares one of the state-specific multiple-choice sections in which scores dropped dramatically, sent a curt message to law school deans in October. “The results are correct,” wrote Erica Moeser, the group’s president, in an Oct. 23 memo. “The group that sat in July 2014 was less able than the group that sat in July 2013,”

It’s technically true that this year’s crop of grads was “less able” than before, if you use their pre-law-school test scores as a proxy for their smarts. The median LSAT score among students at American law schools has declined every year from 2010 to 2013, according to an analysis by Jerry Organ, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas. Last year, Organ found, law schools admitted 50 percent more students with low LSAT scores than they did three years ago.

This is retarded. The people mentioned above are still in law school, and won't take the bar for another couple years. Don't know what you'd mention it, but in next part authort contradicts by talking about the important stat showing perhaps a slight decline in standards.

Admissions standards did not decline much between 2010 and 2011, but they did a lot between 11 and 12 and especially to 13 and 14. Other people have done an analysis using the correct numbers to show that the NCBE's is somewhat unconvincing. I'm open to someone pointing to certain weaknesses in c/o 2014, but going off of simple LSAT/GPA medians isn't going to do it since those were virtually the same between '13 and '14.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784377)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:46 AM
Author: Hateful yellow halford new version

The MBE was fucked this year, but the NCBE will never admit it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784415)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:47 AM
Author: Marvelous chapel coffee pot

(Cooley grad)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784419)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:49 AM
Author: 180 Big-titted Headpube

Naw, it was fucked up this year, breh, honestly.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784426)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:53 AM
Author: Marvelous chapel coffee pot

(It is every year)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784653)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:03 AM
Author: Hateful yellow halford new version

It's a hard test, but the mbe this year was unusual.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784931)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:55 AM
Author: Deranged scarlet institution

Do we have any info on state specific portions, like the essays?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784894)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:30 AM
Author: balding gas station

What the hell is going to happen when the people that they are admitting now take the bar?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784380)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:47 AM
Author: Hateful yellow halford new version

Lots of loans that will never be paid back.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784418)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:39 AM
Author: Marvelous chapel coffee pot

2016: malpractice rates increase

why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784399)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:48 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

Did anyone else notice that they interviewed Nancy Leong?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784425)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:44 AM
Author: Histrionic Underhanded Fortuitous Meteor



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784627)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:00 AM
Author: brass personal credit line



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784922)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:21 AM
Author: Disgusting thriller space kitty

Who emails their professor to cry to them about the bar being so hard? I am convinced Leong just lies about stuff.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785053)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: Sapphire temple

I suspect this is the reason OP shared this article with us.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785309)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:50 AM
Author: Rambunctious Background Story Library

ttt professors find this NOT ok. we can expect countless screeds absolutely proving that admitting weaker and weaker candidates has no effect on bar passage.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784430)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:53 AM
Author: Stirring Costumed Home

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/stjohn80&div=9&id=&page=

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784438)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:34 AM
Author: swashbuckling fiercely-loyal tanning salon toaster

the test should be even harder

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784584)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:47 AM
Author: Heady brunch

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784844)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:56 AM
Author: passionate location turdskin



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784902)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:23 AM
Author: slippery insanely creepy nibblets jew

cr, there are way too many incredibly stupid attorneys out there who can't provide competent service to their clients.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785066)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:26 AM
Author: Diverse well-lubricated pit

tbf, the entire legal system should be thrown on its head. boomers set adrift, term limits for judges, end of the billable hour, one year law school, getting rid of 100+ law schools, etc. but a harder test wouldnt hurt either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785085)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:24 AM
Author: Diverse well-lubricated pit

the examsoft thing is hilarious as hell. it cost hundreds of dollars per head to use and didn't work. Just boomers booming their asses off and millennials whining their asses off.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785074)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 1:49 AM
Author: Rusted sanctuary mother



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26793987)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 3:00 PM
Author: Nudist address legend



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26797941)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 2:59 PM
Author: Domesticated corner

the statistical trend discussed in this article is directly responsible for doobs ending up at a T50 garbage school instead of a true TTT like wayne state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26797930)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 3:11 PM
Author: Judgmental shrine double fault

Mbe was fucked this year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26798016)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 19th, 2018 6:54 PM
Author: soggy jet-lagged church building rigpig



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#35439737)