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Businessweek: "Why so Many LS students failed the Bar in 2014"

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-11-18/why-so-many-...
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
tl;dr: schools significantly drop admissions standards, bar ...
Odious market mad cow disease
  11/24/14
BUT BUT BUT THE LSAT IS A POOR PREDICTOR OF BAR PASSAGE ...
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
The bar might be the only thing that isn't fraud in the lega...
useless narrow-minded university elastic band
  11/24/14
the LSAT also isn't fraud breh
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
Reading comp is joke fraud/creamlie. LSAT should be 100% log...
useless narrow-minded university elastic band
  11/24/14
(guy who thinks you can practice law without having a very s...
Odious market mad cow disease
  11/24/14
...
Costumed indian lodge
  11/24/14
LOOOOL logic games is the easiest section to improve. Yo...
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
Ambiguity is legal cancer. Knowing how to parse that garbage...
useless narrow-minded university elastic band
  11/24/14
knowing how to parse it = knowing how to avoid it
Odious market mad cow disease
  11/24/14
Ambiguity is a fact of life. Sorry about your tiny pink abil...
Overrated umber station
  11/24/14
(terrible lawyer)
useless narrow-minded university elastic band
  11/24/14
Getting to Maybe, Chp. 1, pg. 17. "We said at the be...
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
O, WAS!
useless narrow-minded university elastic band
  11/24/14
CR
Overrated umber station
  11/24/14
LOL. Yeah, I never spend much time worrying about ambiguous...
Charismatic Brindle Wagecucks
  11/24/14
"But man is it useful to have logic games training to f...
pale multi-billionaire
  11/24/14
Ambiguous language in a contract shouldn't exist. QED.
useless narrow-minded university elastic band
  11/24/14
Therefore, it doesn't. Right, guys?
Mahogany zombie-like resort
  11/24/14
Lol
Azure heady pisswyrm new version
  11/24/14
...
Overrated umber station
  11/24/14
(FOB with biglaw dreams)
Mahogany zombie-like resort
  11/24/14
while it may set an arbitrary hurdle you have to pass, it's ...
Odious market mad cow disease
  11/24/14
The bar remains a significant hurdle because it is meant to ...
Overrated umber station
  11/24/14
Opens another law school, allows 135 LSAT score havers, redu...
Rose Rebellious Stage
  11/24/14
Not if those 135 LSAT students never pass the bar
Overrated umber station
  11/24/14
Can someone summarize this crap? Is it just because TTT grad...
stimulating old irish cottage water buffalo
  11/24/14
yes
Odious market mad cow disease
  11/24/14
The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that p...
out-of-control factory reset button
  11/24/14
The MBE was fucked this year, but the NCBE will never admit ...
tantric ticket booth
  11/24/14
(Cooley grad)
Flatulent hyperactive keepsake machete
  11/24/14
Naw, it was fucked up this year, breh, honestly.
Navy learning disabled tank
  11/24/14
(It is every year)
Flatulent hyperactive keepsake machete
  11/24/14
It's a hard test, but the mbe this year was unusual.
tantric ticket booth
  11/24/14
Do we have any info on state specific portions, like the ess...
Mahogany zombie-like resort
  11/24/14
What the hell is going to happen when the people that they a...
Swashbuckling home
  11/24/14
Lots of loans that will never be paid back.
tantric ticket booth
  11/24/14
2016: malpractice rates increase why?
Flatulent hyperactive keepsake machete
  11/24/14
Did anyone else notice that they interviewed Nancy Leong?
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
...
Slate Hairraiser Corner Community Account
  11/24/14
...
Salmon library death wish
  11/24/14
Who emails their professor to cry to them about the bar bein...
bat-shit-crazy dull parlour
  11/24/14
I suspect this is the reason OP shared this article with us.
Diverse avocado philosopher-king theater
  11/24/14
ttt professors find this NOT ok. we can expect countless scr...
self-absorbed electric furnace base
  11/24/14
http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/s...
boyish milk kitchen
  11/24/14
the test should be even harder
wild hairy legs site
  11/24/14
cr
Talented idiotic dilemma
  11/24/14
...
Passionate Big-titted Gaming Laptop Native
  11/24/14
cr, there are way too many incredibly stupid attorneys out t...
submissive really tough guy jewess
  11/24/14
tbf, the entire legal system should be thrown on its head. b...
Ultramarine Stag Film Mother
  11/24/14
the examsoft thing is hilarious as hell. it cost hundreds of...
Ultramarine Stag Film Mother
  11/24/14
...
Vigorous affirmative action
  11/25/14
...
lemon headpube double fault
  11/25/14
the statistical trend discussed in this article is directly ...
clear thriller azn
  11/25/14
Mbe was fucked this year.
Effete den
  11/25/14
...
out-of-control factory reset button
  02/19/18


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:41 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-11-18/why-so-many-law-students-failed-the-bar-exam-in-2014

The most recent bar exam test results are in, and they are ugly. In several states, people who took the bar in July were more likely to fail than those who took it last year, and scores on one portion of the test dropped to their lowest point in 10 years.

Are America’s law graduates really getting dumber? The people who put together the bar exam seem to think so.

The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that prepares one of the state-specific multiple-choice sections in which scores dropped dramatically, sent a curt message to law school deans in October. “The results are correct,” wrote Erica Moeser, the group’s president, in an Oct. 23 memo. “The group that sat in July 2014 was less able than the group that sat in July 2013,”

It’s technically true that this year’s crop of grads was “less able” than before, if you use their pre-law-school test scores as a proxy for their smarts. The median LSAT score among students at American law schools has declined every year from 2010 to 2013, according to an analysis by Jerry Organ, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas. Last year, Organ found, law schools admitted 50 percent more students with low LSAT scores than they did three years ago.

Those numbers suggest that students might have been less prepared, but the figures may not be dramatic enough to explain this year’s bar results. Organ analyzed how LSAT scores have tracked with scores on the exam in the past, and he found that this year’s J.D.s should have performed slightly worse. Instead, they bombed.

Organ and additional law professors point to another culprit: a software glitch that affected test-takers for hours in July. At the end of the first day of testing, people who took the test in one of 43 states in which test company Examsoft administers the bar exam were unable to upload their answers for hours, stretching into late evening. The error eventually led states to extend the upload deadline; students went back to work on the test the following day. Examsoft said no answers were lost, but many feel that the time spent contending with software issues and the anxiety that resulted may have hurt students’ performance on the rest of the test.

“I was up until 1:00 a.m. trying and praying for my exam to go through. When I finally did get to bed, I barely got 2 hours rest because I had to be up at 5:00 a.m. to start day two of the bar,” one test-taker was quoted as saying in an August lawsuit that law grads filed against Examsoft.

Nancy Leong, a law professor at the University of Denver, remembers getting dozens of texts, e-mails and phone calls from students “in various degrees of panic” the night that Examsoft went on the fritz. One women cried for 20 minutes, Leong says. Another asked whether she should cancel the test that night, given how badly she expected to do in the morning. Blaming the drop in scores exclusively on a less-competent group of test-takers ignores how the glitch affected people, she says. “I think that it’s insulting.”

For its part, Examsoft points out that scores dipped everywhere, including such states as Virginia and Arizona that didn’t use the company’s software. The bug may have caused a bout of future-lawyer hysteria, but observers note it shouldn’t eclipse the quality problem law schools face.

As fewer people apply to law school, many programs have accepted less-qualified applicants in order to keep class sizes the same and to sustain their bottom line, says Derek Muller, a law professor at Pepperdine University. “This drop, while bigger than expected, is just a sign for what’s going to come for law schools as the incoming classes continue to decline in quality.”

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784069)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:46 AM
Author: Odious market mad cow disease

tl;dr: schools significantly drop admissions standards, bar passage rates drop, why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784080)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:50 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

BUT BUT BUT THE LSAT IS A POOR PREDICTOR OF BAR PASSAGE

(shitlib)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784093)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:49 AM
Author: useless narrow-minded university elastic band

The bar might be the only thing that isn't fraud in the legal profession. How has it avoided become a politically correct moneygrab where every millenial gets a trophy?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784087)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:50 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

the LSAT also isn't fraud breh

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784095)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:51 AM
Author: useless narrow-minded university elastic band

Reading comp is joke fraud/creamlie. LSAT should be 100% logic games.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784100)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Odious market mad cow disease

(guy who thinks you can practice law without having a very strong command of the english language)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784106)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: Costumed indian lodge



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784107)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:53 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

LOOOOL

logic games is the easiest section to improve. You can basically get -0 or at most -2 just by SHEER | GRINDING.

Reading comprehension is ambiguous, with at least two answers that appear true. Test takers have to identify subtle variations in language to arrive at the credited response, and this takes practice, mental discipline, and intelligence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784108)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:55 AM
Author: useless narrow-minded university elastic band

Ambiguity is legal cancer. Knowing how to parse that garbage is as useful as a doctor knowing how to operate a gas chamber.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784112)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:57 AM
Author: Odious market mad cow disease

knowing how to parse it = knowing how to avoid it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784121)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 5:20 AM
Author: Overrated umber station

Ambiguity is a fact of life. Sorry about your tiny pink ability to grapple with the nature of reality.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784150)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:03 AM
Author: useless narrow-minded university elastic band

(terrible lawyer)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784467)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:07 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

Getting to Maybe, Chp. 1, pg. 17.

"We said at the beginning of the chapter that the most important lesson we could teach you about law exams is that it's what you do with what you find inside the question that counts the most. The second most important lesson should be apparent from the foregoing discussion: What you will find inside the typical law exam question is ambiguity, and we think that learning to live with it — indeed, learning to search it out and exploit it — is the key to doing well in law school exams."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784482)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:03 AM
Author: useless narrow-minded university elastic band

O, WAS!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784693)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:02 PM
Author: Overrated umber station

CR

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785300)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:09 AM
Author: Charismatic Brindle Wagecucks

LOL. Yeah, I never spend much time worrying about ambiguous language in a contract, statute or case. But man is it useful to have logic games training to fall back on when I decide where to sit at the table in the conference room before the meeting starts.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784715)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:27 AM
Author: pale multi-billionaire

"But man is it useful to have logic games training to fall back on when I decide where to sit at the table in the conference room before the meeting starts. "

180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784779)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:28 AM
Author: useless narrow-minded university elastic band

Ambiguous language in a contract shouldn't exist. QED.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784784)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:53 AM
Author: Mahogany zombie-like resort

Therefore, it doesn't.

Right, guys?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784885)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:10 AM
Author: Azure heady pisswyrm new version

Lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784988)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:02 PM
Author: Overrated umber station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785302)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:52 AM
Author: Mahogany zombie-like resort

(FOB with biglaw dreams)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784880)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:52 AM
Author: Odious market mad cow disease

while it may set an arbitrary hurdle you have to pass, it's fucking useless. it has no bearing on your ability to practice. it's antiquated in its insistence you know the very basics of every area of practice when you will only actually work in one or two. may as well just use LSAT scores if you want to keep dumbs out. law schools are supposed to serve that purpose, but the ABA fucked that up and now you can find a school to take you if you score at least a 130 and are willing to pay (borrow).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784104)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 5:23 AM
Author: Overrated umber station

The bar remains a significant hurdle because it is meant to be a barrier to entry for the legal profession. Lowering bar standards directly reduces the value of every practicing lawyer's human capital. Which is (obviously) counter to the interest of those in control of bar standards.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784152)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:00 AM
Author: Rose Rebellious Stage

Opens another law school, allows 135 LSAT score havers, reduces the value of every practicing lawyer's human capital

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784919)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: Overrated umber station

Not if those 135 LSAT students never pass the bar

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785308)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:51 AM
Author: stimulating old irish cottage water buffalo

Can someone summarize this crap? Is it just because TTT grads are flooding the market?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784101)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 4:52 AM
Author: Odious market mad cow disease

yes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784105)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:29 AM
Author: out-of-control factory reset button

The National Conference of Bar Examiners, a nonprofit that prepares one of the state-specific multiple-choice sections in which scores dropped dramatically, sent a curt message to law school deans in October. “The results are correct,” wrote Erica Moeser, the group’s president, in an Oct. 23 memo. “The group that sat in July 2014 was less able than the group that sat in July 2013,”

It’s technically true that this year’s crop of grads was “less able” than before, if you use their pre-law-school test scores as a proxy for their smarts. The median LSAT score among students at American law schools has declined every year from 2010 to 2013, according to an analysis by Jerry Organ, a law professor at the University of St. Thomas. Last year, Organ found, law schools admitted 50 percent more students with low LSAT scores than they did three years ago.

This is retarded. The people mentioned above are still in law school, and won't take the bar for another couple years. Don't know what you'd mention it, but in next part authort contradicts by talking about the important stat showing perhaps a slight decline in standards.

Admissions standards did not decline much between 2010 and 2011, but they did a lot between 11 and 12 and especially to 13 and 14. Other people have done an analysis using the correct numbers to show that the NCBE's is somewhat unconvincing. I'm open to someone pointing to certain weaknesses in c/o 2014, but going off of simple LSAT/GPA medians isn't going to do it since those were virtually the same between '13 and '14.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784377)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:46 AM
Author: tantric ticket booth

The MBE was fucked this year, but the NCBE will never admit it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784415)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:47 AM
Author: Flatulent hyperactive keepsake machete

(Cooley grad)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784419)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:49 AM
Author: Navy learning disabled tank

Naw, it was fucked up this year, breh, honestly.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784426)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:53 AM
Author: Flatulent hyperactive keepsake machete

(It is every year)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784653)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:03 AM
Author: tantric ticket booth

It's a hard test, but the mbe this year was unusual.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784931)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:55 AM
Author: Mahogany zombie-like resort

Do we have any info on state specific portions, like the essays?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784894)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:30 AM
Author: Swashbuckling home

What the hell is going to happen when the people that they are admitting now take the bar?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784380)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:47 AM
Author: tantric ticket booth

Lots of loans that will never be paid back.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784418)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:39 AM
Author: Flatulent hyperactive keepsake machete

2016: malpractice rates increase

why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784399)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:48 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

Did anyone else notice that they interviewed Nancy Leong?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784425)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:44 AM
Author: Slate Hairraiser Corner Community Account



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784627)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:00 AM
Author: Salmon library death wish



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784922)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:21 AM
Author: bat-shit-crazy dull parlour

Who emails their professor to cry to them about the bar being so hard? I am convinced Leong just lies about stuff.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785053)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 12:03 PM
Author: Diverse avocado philosopher-king theater

I suspect this is the reason OP shared this article with us.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785309)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:50 AM
Author: self-absorbed electric furnace base

ttt professors find this NOT ok. we can expect countless screeds absolutely proving that admitting weaker and weaker candidates has no effect on bar passage.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784430)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 8:53 AM
Author: boyish milk kitchen

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/stjohn80&div=9&id=&page=

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784438)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 9:34 AM
Author: wild hairy legs site

the test should be even harder

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784584)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:47 AM
Author: Talented idiotic dilemma

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784844)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 10:56 AM
Author: Passionate Big-titted Gaming Laptop Native



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26784902)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:23 AM
Author: submissive really tough guy jewess

cr, there are way too many incredibly stupid attorneys out there who can't provide competent service to their clients.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785066)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:26 AM
Author: Ultramarine Stag Film Mother

tbf, the entire legal system should be thrown on its head. boomers set adrift, term limits for judges, end of the billable hour, one year law school, getting rid of 100+ law schools, etc. but a harder test wouldnt hurt either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785085)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 24th, 2014 11:24 AM
Author: Ultramarine Stag Film Mother

the examsoft thing is hilarious as hell. it cost hundreds of dollars per head to use and didn't work. Just boomers booming their asses off and millennials whining their asses off.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26785074)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 1:49 AM
Author: Vigorous affirmative action



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26793987)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 3:00 PM
Author: lemon headpube double fault



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26797941)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 2:59 PM
Author: clear thriller azn

the statistical trend discussed in this article is directly responsible for doobs ending up at a T50 garbage school instead of a true TTT like wayne state.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26797930)



Reply Favorite

Date: November 25th, 2014 3:11 PM
Author: Effete den

Mbe was fucked this year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#26798016)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 19th, 2018 6:54 PM
Author: out-of-control factory reset button



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2736694&forum_id=2#35439737)