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Biglawyers: Did you fall for the whole life insurance scam?

Was pitched on this last week. Nearly committed to do it af...
odious chrome ceo stag film
  01/15/15
Some form of life insurance seems credited if you have young...
Painfully honest vigorous hell deer antler
  01/15/15
This. I have one baby dood already and another on the way. B...
irradiated coral site
  01/16/15
I assume you're talking about "whole" life insuran...
Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater
  01/15/15
He literally put "whole life insurance" in the tit...
transparent mediation dragon
  01/15/15
Yeah, I just re-read that. I originally read it in the coll...
Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater
  01/16/15
Did the same thing. Honest mistake.
irradiated coral site
  01/16/15
Ditto
brass coiffed digit ratio love of her life
  01/21/15
ditto
Frum Ultramarine Lay Bbw
  02/16/15
lol
Hyperactive property selfie
  02/16/15
he was talking about whole life insurance
flatulent red keepsake machete
  02/21/15
I have life insurance.
laughsome dilemma
  01/15/15
Some idiot at my old firm fell for this. He actually was &q...
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
I got this pitch when I was a first year, too. They must hav...
razzmatazz orchestra pit hunting ground
  01/15/15
They are going after people who now have money and aren't us...
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
Yeah, and obviously it works. Looking back, their pitch was ...
razzmatazz orchestra pit hunting ground
  01/15/15
I doubt if they trick more than 1 in 20 associates, but it's...
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
actually whole life doesn't want you to pay for life, they w...
bull headed dog poop set
  02/21/15
we would have a guy infiltrate the entire first year class e...
Maniacal coffee pot
  01/15/15
happened to our class last year so gd annoying
Vivacious Umber Sandwich
  01/15/15
is this real or flame? lol lawyers
Gay electric furnace native
  05/09/16
instead? I could see it conceivably not being a terrible in...
Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater
  01/15/15
In certain situations, like the one you've described, whole ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
LOL [reminds self to never to consult ultra-sophisticated...
Diverse Bat Shit Crazy Therapy Theatre
  01/15/15
What? You think whole life insurance is always a terrible i...
Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater
  01/16/15
you're retarded, whole term is good for certain circumstance...
bull headed dog poop set
  02/21/15
I got this pitch as well. The insurance guy I met was sent o...
Dark aphrodisiac parlor
  01/21/15
I went to one of these pitches once when I had nothing press...
domesticated toilet seat
  01/21/15
These fuckers are horrible. I was about to commit to a whole...
Dark aphrodisiac parlor
  01/21/15
term life is fine and i actually valued their input on that ...
Maniacal coffee pot
  01/15/15
whole life is pure fraud + lies. single = no need for lif...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/15/15
TITCR
Garnet Dead Cuckoldry Personal Credit Line
  01/15/15
What makes whole life so bad? As an actuarial matter, it ...
Chestnut round eye
  01/15/15
as a concept, whole life is fine. in practice, whole life...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
...
crystalline nursing home puppy
  01/15/15
yeah, it's the opacity and the way it's actually designed 99...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/15/15
It's too bad because the premise behind whole life is actual...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
i know that there can be a place for whole life, i've just r...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/16/15
(Not a PCI expert, likely shitlib retard)
Electric messiness house
  01/16/15
even this is generous. it applies if, and only if, 1. (marr...
crystalline nursing home puppy
  01/15/15
that seems a little miserly toward dat wife breh. term is c...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/15/15
with no kids, why leave one of you hitting the jackpot if th...
crystalline nursing home puppy
  01/16/15
i'm an early-mid 30's bro with half a mil 20 year level term...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/16/15
This is what I did...
comical apoplectic piazza
  01/23/15
whole term can be good for tax purposes if you're already ma...
bull headed dog poop set
  02/21/15
I just click the button that gives me term life insurance up...
provocative organic girlfriend heaven
  01/15/15
When I was a first year, another first year chick was truly ...
Fiercely-loyal Bossy Temple
  01/15/15
Op here, want to clarify that I am a single 26 year old male...
odious chrome ceo stag film
  01/15/15
The only tax shelter you get is to protect part of your esta...
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
well, to be fair, that presumes similar exemption levels. ...
sexy splenetic stock car
  01/15/15
(insurance salesman)
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
So are you ready to sign up?
aqua tattoo
  01/16/15
Its only a estate tax shelter if the policy on your life is ...
nudist bearded stain market
  01/15/15
Whole policies also made sense for owners and executives whe...
alcoholic orchid foreskin corn cake
  01/15/15
the cash value/dividends are tax-deferred the biggest pro...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
To be clear, whole life isn't a scam on the level of a pyram...
razzmatazz orchestra pit hunting ground
  01/15/15
I already have done both of those and still think I'm better...
odious chrome ceo stag film
  01/15/15
if u have already maxed 401K, have a backdoor Roth IRA, and ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
A big part of the scam is the level of obfuscation involved ...
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
Projected returns are a bit sketchy, but largely track the b...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
This was one of the biggest red flags for me when my insuran...
Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater
  01/16/15
If you're rich as fuck, maybe. Whole life is flame for all ...
flatulent red keepsake machete
  01/15/15
...
Indigo Masturbator Wrinkle
  01/15/15
i don't know know what you guys are being offered but if it ...
Deranged Generalized Bond
  01/15/15
whole life insurance is pitched by many agents, typically fr...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
this is exactly what i was subjected to and that is exactly ...
Vivacious Umber Sandwich
  01/15/15
it is completely absurd and we would be better served by a C...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
cr
Vivacious Umber Sandwich
  01/15/15
...
Floppy impertinent prole
  01/16/15
a good whole life policy should be blended and accrue around...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
Came very close to falling for a pitch. "hey, I'll be i...
Fragrant Fluffy Degenerate
  01/15/15
it's sometimes worth meeting these guys, not to pay attentio...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
Cr they have answers for everything
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
I invited the guy back just to confront him with the facts. ...
odious chrome ceo stag film
  01/15/15
ask him if it's possible to blend the policy with a 1:999 wh...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
Are you some sort of math bro? Have you looked at the VUL's...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/15/15
Without doing any math, I can tell you that your intuition i...
Trip station becky
  01/15/15
How do you feel about just plain vanilla 10 pay whole life w...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/15/15
what are you trying to get out of it? Why do you want money...
Trip station becky
  01/16/15
Safe conservative return, off my taxable balance sheet. ...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/16/15
MassMutual has a decent 10-pay product, but someone pretty c...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
Mass also has that. Every product will be high load, no way...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/16/15
While there is some truth to the pricing critique, I think i...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/16/15
What are your thoughts of getting long term care policies fo...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/16/15
Unfortunately, I've never looked into LTC issues (silly, as ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/16/15
Mass seems to have a good product on this too. I am think...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/16/15
Not a math bro, just am interested in life insurance because...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
None that I have seen give the dividends. The concept that ...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/16/15
Term is still a good bet if you have kids / good hedge
marvelous slimy university
  01/15/15
So this is the way that a good blended whole life policy sho...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
I feel a little bad for the biglaw bros that commit to this ...
bonkers turdskin trust fund
  01/15/15
yeah, part of the problem is that the model is generally uns...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
when you're truly wealthy you get one of these: http://we...
Sepia hall
  01/15/15
LOL, I'd like to get a job selling this shit to people.
appetizing insanely creepy gas station
  01/15/15
It surprises me that any biglawyers would be sufficiently gu...
Mentally impaired boyish indian lodge community account
  01/15/15
The lack of free time is what lures biglawyers in, though. ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
A long, long time ago, when I was a junior associate, one of...
glassy striped hyena
  02/17/15
If I go before my gov student loans are paid off, is my wife...
Mind-boggling medicated place of business brunch
  01/15/15
did they co-sign? pretty sure if you kick the bucket fed lo...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/15/15
I don't think they co-signed, but I do remember having to pr...
Mind-boggling medicated place of business brunch
  01/15/15
yes they do dna tests of all your blood relatives and throw ...
glittery parlour
  01/16/15
Did u see the 60 minutes story where they talked about how e...
Maroon motley stage
  01/15/15
you sure that's not because they bought a policy on the empl...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/15/15
I saw an article stating that this was for regular workers, ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/15/15
the 60 min story was how it was for everyone not just execs....
Maroon motley stage
  01/15/15
even so, so what? it doesn't do any harm to the dead guy or...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/16/15
Biglaw folks should only get life insurance that still pays ...
magical racy ape circlehead
  01/15/15
I bought one. It is okay and properly designed, but not rea...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/15/15
If you have paid-up additions, you should be able to surrend...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/21/15
I love this thread. There should be a law review article an...
wine legend
  01/16/15
One of the Northwestern Mutual guys told me straight up that...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
Jesus Christ. Shouldn't he lose his license for that? Do t...
wine legend
  01/16/15
I believe they need to be licensed, but those licenses certa...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
God damn. When I was a first year we had a wealthy old seni...
wine legend
  01/16/15
Jfc, that's awful. I've been across a few legit psychopaths...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
The senile client insisted on suing the guy. The guy was the...
wine legend
  01/16/15
You raise an excellent point. This kind of shit is going on ...
alcoholic orchid foreskin corn cake
  01/16/15
I've been down this road with local prosbros and AG's office...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/16/15
My guy also said things that in my research I found to be de...
odious chrome ceo stag film
  01/16/15
I think lawyers are tough because our job is to sift through...
wine legend
  01/16/15
Pretty much. I have to credit the Northwestern agent with g...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/16/15
We should all record meetings with northwestern scammers and...
wine legend
  01/16/15
whole life is for estate planning by the wealthy - not wage ...
adventurous translucent juggernaut shrine
  01/16/15
...
flushed associate pit
  01/16/15
https://twitter.com/Bad_Stock_Tips/status/539336484881707008...
Pearly Blathering Multi-billionaire
  01/16/15
Lol
wine legend
  01/16/15
When I started at my current firm, I had a Northwestern Mutu...
sienna crawly clown gaming laptop
  01/17/15
They sure advertise a lot during college football games too
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  01/17/15
This entire thread is 180
curious idiot french chef
  01/21/15
xo is not COMPLETELY toxic and useless
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/21/15
I told my Northwestern Mutual guy I was not interested in th...
odious chrome ceo stag film
  01/23/15
hey anyone have an opinion on this product: https://us.ax...
Deranged Generalized Bond
  01/23/15
basically, anything but the most simple insurance contracts ...
brilliant spot
  01/23/15
there are a number of potential issues with that policy. ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/23/15
you should be blogging this shit for a wider audience
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  01/23/15
ha, i would if i were more confident about my conclusions, b...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  01/24/15
saaaaavy
comical apoplectic piazza
  01/23/15
Not to beat a dead horse, but for any of u biglaw ladies and...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/16/15
I'm meeting with one of these northwestern guys on thursday....
chartreuse national
  02/17/15
some key questions for him assuming that he is pitching whol...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/17/15
Can you post some links I can use to confront him with this ...
chartreuse national
  02/17/15
sure -- all of this assumes that he's pitching whole life an...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/17/15
Below is a telling excerpt from the Hunt consumer report. N...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/17/15
wait, did I write this?
Arousing Plaza
  02/18/15
many poasters here prolly have met the same cast of characte...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/18/15
One of the objections to whole life is that you have to pay ...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/18/15
keep poasting this shit bro, i'm still reading and enjoying.
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  02/18/15
tyft, i am a man obsessed with cash-value insurance and can'...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/18/15
i am shitlaw boss, or shitlaw boss lite anyway, and we have ...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  02/18/15
that's pretty smart, you can build up a lot of credibility w...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/18/15
yeah, we have some people who are in decent and fairly compl...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  02/18/15
I think what's really interesting about the whole-life polic...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/20/15
lawyers think they understand insurance because they copped ...
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  02/21/15
the thought of a fresh 1st year interested in working in &qu...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/21/15
Phone just rang from a Northwestern Mutual agent. The agent...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/19/15
Just met with a totally different NML agent. I had requeste...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/20/15
So let's compare several Northwestern Mutual illustrations t...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/21/15
Thanks for this. I finally got through to the guy that I'm ...
chartreuse national
  02/21/15
that's a 180 tactic and i intend to deploy it in the near fu...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/21/15
I'm not disagreeing that whole life is a scam, but when you ...
adventurous translucent juggernaut shrine
  02/21/15
Fair point, the purpose of the comparison above was to compa...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/21/15
ty
lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction
  02/21/15
I work at an ibank. How come we never get pitched like what ...
hilarious really tough guy
  02/21/15
some of my PE friends have been pitched but in general it...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/21/15
Have you looked into premium financing - obtaining a loan fr...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/22/15
Also, what are your thoughts on when to move the policy over...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/22/15
bump for eeyore
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/23/15
last bump
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/25/15
Sorry PTB, missed these Qs. I haven't looked into these (I'...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/25/15
OK, cool. Thanks for all the info and analysis. I was too l...
haunting ocher filthpig lettuce
  02/26/15
So I actually began exploring this idea recently and spoke w...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  05/14/15
Putting aside all the numbers, here are two common-sense que...
Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig
  02/27/15
This should be bumped every September
Thriller roommate
  05/02/19
...
Vivacious Umber Sandwich
  05/02/19
...
Thriller roommate
  03/29/23
...
Rough-skinned Zippy Range
  09/23/23


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 12:16 PM
Author: odious chrome ceo stag film

Was pitched on this last week. Nearly committed to do it after an hour and a half long sales pitch.

Luckily did my own research after the pitch. I consider myself pretty savy financially and can't come to any other conclusion after running numbers other than that this is a scam preying on the risk aversion of biglawyers. Was curious if others have done this or if I am off base.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122231)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 12:54 PM
Author: Painfully honest vigorous hell deer antler

Some form of life insurance seems credited if you have young kids.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122380)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 3:20 PM
Author: irradiated coral site

This. I have one baby dood already and another on the way. Being in my early 30s and the breadwinner for the family, I'm looking to add another million to my current one million dollar policy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27129053)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:05 PM
Author: Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater

I assume you're talking about "whole" life insurance. Term life insurance is not really a scam, and is worth it if you have dependents.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124670)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 10:11 PM
Author: transparent mediation dragon

He literally put "whole life insurance" in the title of the thread

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125486)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:23 PM
Author: Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater

Yeah, I just re-read that. I originally read it in the colloquial sense of "the whole multi-level marketing scam" or "the whole pay-by-weight" scam.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128349)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 3:19 PM
Author: irradiated coral site

Did the same thing. Honest mistake.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27129048)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2015 7:05 PM
Author: brass coiffed digit ratio love of her life

Ditto

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160198)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 16th, 2015 1:42 PM
Author: Frum Ultramarine Lay Bbw

ditto

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27326584)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 16th, 2015 1:44 PM
Author: Hyperactive property selfie

lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27326600)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 21st, 2015 6:14 PM
Author: flatulent red keepsake machete

he was talking about whole life insurance



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364437)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 12:23 PM
Author: laughsome dilemma

I have life insurance.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122253)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 12:27 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

Some idiot at my old firm fell for this. He actually was "investing" in a whole life policy with his sister as the beneficiary instead of using his 401K. In truth, firms should not allow those guys in the door.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122267)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:00 PM
Author: razzmatazz orchestra pit hunting ground

I got this pitch when I was a first year, too. They must have some lackey scour the firm bios for first years every November. What a weird, oddly-focused scam.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122400)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:02 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

They are going after people who now have money and aren't used to handling it. The policies are structured so that basically the whole first year's payments go towards commission for the salesman. So, they effectively lock you in so that you can't get out once you realize you've been scammed.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122408)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:11 PM
Author: razzmatazz orchestra pit hunting ground

Yeah, and obviously it works. Looking back, their pitch was amusingly devious- "oh, you want to set up a meeting in one of our conference rooms? I guess this is what I do now, set up meetings with my financial advisors, because I'm a big shot and too busy to handle all this money I'm making! Sure, they won't make very much with my investment now, but when I get BREAKFAST we'll have a relationship and I'll trust them!" Later, "uh, you want me to buy life insurance on monthly installments nearly as high as my student loans?"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122442)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:17 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

I doubt if they trick more than 1 in 20 associates, but it's still worth it because they basically have those 1 in 20 associates paying for life.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122475)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 21st, 2015 5:44 PM
Author: bull headed dog poop set

actually whole life doesn't want you to pay for life, they want you to cancel in the first 20 years because the premiums are too expensive (whole term insurance becomes a good investment and amortizes the transaction costs around yr 20)

which of course means associates are the perfect target, because they get it, pay a shitload, then stop paying their premiums after they get shitcanned, and the insurance co gets to pocket all that money and never pay it out

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364250)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:37 PM
Author: Maniacal coffee pot

we would have a guy infiltrate the entire first year class every year, then inevitably someone would fall for it, become linkedin friends, and then everyone in the office would just get spammed ruthlessly.

then it moved to the GFs/spouses and got completely ridiculous

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122583)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 3:24 PM
Author: Vivacious Umber Sandwich

happened to our class last year

so gd annoying

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123169)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 9th, 2016 2:07 AM
Author: Gay electric furnace native

is this real or flame? lol lawyers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#30438219)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:06 PM
Author: Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater

instead? I could see it conceivably not being a terrible investment if you've already maxed out other tax-favored options.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124673)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:18 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

In certain situations, like the one you've described, whole life insurance can be a good long-term bond substitute/high-interest money market account. I will probably get a small whole life policy for that purpose.

The problem is that the version of whole life that is pitched to biglaw associates is generally crappy, and the difference between the crappy version that they pitch, and an optimal policy, can be millions of dollars decades later.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124711)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:44 PM
Author: Diverse Bat Shit Crazy Therapy Theatre

LOL

[reminds self to never to consult ultra-sophisticated counselor at law IronMonkey]

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124877)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:28 PM
Author: Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater

What? You think whole life insurance is always a terrible investment for all people in all situations?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128370)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 21st, 2015 5:46 PM
Author: bull headed dog poop set

you're retarded, whole term is good for certain circumstances, and he correctly identified one of them as being when you've maxed out your other tax-preferred options (because whole term is tax free, even the dividends it makes if it's participatory). Think of it as a bond or money market acct (as someone else above correctly identified)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364262)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2015 6:40 PM
Author: Dark aphrodisiac parlor

I got this pitch as well. The insurance guy I met was sent over by a senior associate. When I had my first mtg with the guy, he asked me to name three new attys at my firm so that he can meet them. I guess this is how he got some of the leads. I was about to invest until I didn't understand how I would benefit from it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160113)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2015 6:44 PM
Author: domesticated toilet seat

I went to one of these pitches once when I had nothing pressing to do and the agent was very aggressive about trying to make me name other people. The associates who give out names are the real criminals in this enterprise.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160134)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2015 7:11 PM
Author: Dark aphrodisiac parlor

These fuckers are horrible. I was about to commit to a whole life insurance plan, but I backed out. The dude kept on calling me every day. He wanted me to put an absurd amount of money into the plan (I had zero debt), and I was like "Fuck no." He backpedaled: "You're right. It is a lil too aggressive, but we will get to that amount together. Let's do half of that."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160231)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:17 PM
Author: Maniacal coffee pot

term life is fine and i actually valued their input on that front, but their constant attempts to convert you to whole life were pretty transparent

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122474)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:20 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

whole life is pure fraud + lies.

single = no need for life insurance.

married = term policy

married + mortgage = larger term policy

married + kids = largest term policy (or additional term policy)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122487)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:34 PM
Author: Garnet Dead Cuckoldry Personal Credit Line

TITCR

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122562)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:07 PM
Author: Chestnut round eye

What makes whole life so bad?

As an actuarial matter, it doesn't seem like one should end up being more scammy than the other.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122746)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:15 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

as a concept, whole life is fine.

in practice, whole life is highly loaded, i.e. lots of sales commission.

if whole life were NOT highly loaded, it would be a decent long-term bond substitute because it's a tax shelter. it's possible to design such a lower-load whole life policy by incrementally purchasing low-load additions to a policy, but that's never the way that it's presented to biglaw associates.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122799)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 4:09 PM
Author: crystalline nursing home puppy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123404)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:40 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

yeah, it's the opacity and the way it's actually designed 99% or more of the time. they fuck you hard on the fees. insurance salesmen are not there to be your friend.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124846)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:47 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

It's too bad because the premise behind whole life is actually pretty elegant, and I actually like it when it's designed to maximize cash accrual.

Makes me wonder if whole life mutuals operate like credit companies -- screwing over a large set of people and subsidizing the use of credit cards for consumers who are never late on payments



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124903)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:14 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

i know that there can be a place for whole life, i've just rarely seen it. maybe after i stack a little more cheddar and/or form babby i'll go looking for the 1 in a hundred inurancebro who isn't looking to rip me off.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128314)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:51 PM
Author: Electric messiness house

(Not a PCI expert, likely shitlib retard)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128530)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 4:08 PM
Author: crystalline nursing home puppy

even this is generous. it applies if, and only if,

1. (married) married with debt your spouse can't handle if you die.

2. (married + mortgage) married with mortgage your spouse can't afford while she sells the house and downsizes.

term life if you have kids and haven't built up enough family wealth for spouse to do well. that one makes sense. however, if you are married to a hot, they end up getting remarried pretty easily, even with kids

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123399)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 8:42 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

that seems a little miserly toward dat wife breh. term is cheap as balls if you're under 40 and in decent health. no reason not to carry at least half a mil.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124858)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:07 PM
Author: crystalline nursing home puppy

with no kids, why leave one of you hitting the jackpot if the other dies?

yes, it's insurance. yes, it's not that much in the big picture. but, the net present value of your contributions is less than what you get for it. that's why insurance companies have such nice buildings and their salesman make as much or more than attorneys.

it's like the lottery for the well off.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128264)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:13 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

i'm an early-mid 30's bro with half a mil 20 year level term for under $25/month. it literally costs almost nothing. try as i might, i cannot even recognize the opportunity cost of $300/year. it's not a fucking jackpot for a reasonably successful family but it makes me pleased to think that there would be a modest windfall if i get hit by a bus. the extremely low price of my premiums is much lower, to me, than the benefit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128307)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 23rd, 2015 6:30 PM
Author: comical apoplectic piazza

This is what I did...

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27173412)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 21st, 2015 5:47 PM
Author: bull headed dog poop set

whole term can be good for tax purposes if you're already maxing out ira, 401k etc, because it is a tax preferred vehicle

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364266)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:20 PM
Author: provocative organic girlfriend heaven

I just click the button that gives me term life insurance up to my salary + like $500k if accidental death.. Seemed like enough

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122490)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:23 PM
Author: Fiercely-loyal Bossy Temple

When I was a first year, another first year chick was truly horrible with money. Went out and spent like 4K on a custom couch, and locked herself into an expensive apartment.

Sure enough, like 4 months in, she proudly told everyone that she was getting blood drawn and having a physical done for a life insurance policy she was purchasing "as an investment". Not sure if she went through with it, but she probably did.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122497)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:30 PM
Author: odious chrome ceo stag film

Op here, want to clarify that I am a single 26 year old male. I told the guy I didn't care about the death benefit and he still said it was worthwhile as a cash investment tax shelter vehicle. LJL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122534)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:33 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

The only tax shelter you get is to protect part of your estate from taxes for your heirs. Which is not at all relevant for any biglaw associate.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122554)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:35 PM
Author: sexy splenetic stock car

well, to be fair, that presumes similar exemption levels.

you could easily foresee much lower exemption levels 50 years in the future, and it's not unrealistic to imagine a lot of biglaw associates having estates on the order of $3-10m

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122570)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:38 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

(insurance salesman)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122588)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 12:58 PM
Author: aqua tattoo

So are you ready to sign up?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128198)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:39 PM
Author: nudist bearded stain market

Its only a estate tax shelter if the policy on your life is owned through the trust and you give up some ability to control the policy and its proceeds. Otherwise the death benefit is taxable.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122591)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:49 PM
Author: alcoholic orchid foreskin corn cake

Whole policies also made sense for owners and executives when purchased via a split-dollar arrangement as a means for reducing current income tax liability, but it is my understanding the IRS has cracked down on this arrangement.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122640)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:27 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

the cash value/dividends are tax-deferred

the biggest problem is how to get cash in there in the first place without being ripped off

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122860)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:41 PM
Author: razzmatazz orchestra pit hunting ground

To be clear, whole life isn't a scam on the level of a pyramid scheme necessarily, but they way it's sold to first years basically is. You need to be in it for a long time to get value out of it, not scrimping for a few years before you get the talk. Just max your 401k and pay off loans.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122603)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:42 PM
Author: odious chrome ceo stag film

I already have done both of those and still think I'm better just buying vanguard admiral shares.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122608)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:30 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

if u have already maxed 401K, have a backdoor Roth IRA, and otherwise exhausted ur tax shelter options, AND u want some kind of long-term bond holding + u want life insurance, then a good policy is not a bad idea (u won't find one from the agents visiting ur biglaw office, tho).

if u were going to invest ur money in equities/high-risk/high-yield instruments, then it's pointless since the insurance is only intended for slow and steady growth

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122875)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:45 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

A big part of the scam is the level of obfuscation involved with projected investment returns. There is nothing to stop them from giving you shit returns even if the markets do well, and no way to challenge the returns since nobody knows how they are derived. They show you all these charts with low guaranteed minimum returns and then much higher "projected" returns. You can be sure your returns will look much more like the minimum returns, no matter what.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122627)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:12 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Projected returns are a bit sketchy, but largely track the bond markets and prior years' dividends. From a bird's eye perspective, this is why I prefer mutuals, since they distribute their profits to policyholders rather than stockholders.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126528)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:32 PM
Author: Pea-brained charismatic shitlib volcanic crater

This was one of the biggest red flags for me when my insurance "bro" tried to pitch me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128395)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 9:01 PM
Author: flatulent red keepsake machete

If you're rich as fuck, maybe. Whole life is flame for all but the richest.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125016)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:36 PM
Author: Indigo Masturbator Wrinkle



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122576)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 1:56 PM
Author: Deranged Generalized Bond

i don't know know what you guys are being offered but if it is a "dividend" type policy or something by Northwestern mutual, i think that is probably not the best.

but the concept of investing tax free inside an insurance wrapper is a sophisticated tax avoidance scheme used by the wealthy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/10/business/10PRIVATE.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122676)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:12 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

whole life insurance is pitched by many agents, typically from northwestern mutual and metlife, to biglaw associates. these agents represent themselves as "financial advisors" rather than insurance salesmen, and arrange meetings with you to "review your financial situation."

after you sit down with them, they pitch a whole life insurance policy to you that is typically designed to maximize their commissions rather than actually help you. for example, i am looking at a policy illustration generated by a northwestern mutual agent for a proposed policy paying in about 16K per year. this policy doesn't even break even until year 14 (!) and the internal rate of return is barely 3% even at year 20 (!)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122777)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 3:26 PM
Author: Vivacious Umber Sandwich

this is exactly what i was subjected to and that is exactly who it was



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123180)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 3:28 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

it is completely absurd and we would be better served by a CLE explaining this stuff instead of learning about riparian rights

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123191)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 3:29 PM
Author: Vivacious Umber Sandwich

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123193)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:26 AM
Author: Floppy impertinent prole



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126574)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:02 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

a good whole life policy should be blended and accrue around 75% cash value within the first year, and break even before year 5

of course, insurance salesmen rarely (never?) pitch such policies to us, because they would rather pocket the cash value and write you a policy that accrues no cash value within the first year, and breaks even after 10 years

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122710)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:18 PM
Author: Fragrant Fluffy Degenerate

Came very close to falling for a pitch. "hey, I'll be in your office meeting with a few partners next week, want to set up a meeting while I am there? I can walk you through how some more senior folks at your firm have handle this important investment in the past."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122803)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:20 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

it's sometimes worth meeting these guys, not to pay attention to the product, but to pick up on tips on how to make sales pitches bc they're geniuses at it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122814)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 2:37 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

Cr they have answers for everything

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122929)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 3:17 PM
Author: odious chrome ceo stag film

I invited the guy back just to confront him with the facts. These people are fucking magicians at making this shit seem like a great idea. I plan to continue debating him til he admits he is trying to scam me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123127)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 3:26 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

ask him if it's possible to blend the policy with a 1:999 whole-to-term ratio (or at the very least, a 1:4 ratio), and use as many paid-up additions as possible to accrue as much cash value as possible. that will greatly reduce the fees (and unfortunately for ur agent, his commission), while maximizing the cash value/dividends of ur policy.

also, there is a huge variation in returns between the insurance carriers. a good carrier should be able to return around 4% IRR (pre-tax, not post-tax equivalent) after 10 years into the policy. and there should be a great deal of flexibility w/the policy as to whether you have to pay premiums every year or if you can choose not to do so without penalty.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123181)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 10:14 PM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

Are you some sort of math bro? Have you looked at the VUL's that limit upside but cap downside at 0? Those seem like a great idea to me and for someone as conservative as me, would get a good portion of my cash allocation to equity exposure.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125506)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 11:01 PM
Author: Trip station becky

Without doing any math, I can tell you that your intuition isn't better at derivatives pricing than the actuaries and investment managers at the insurance company. If they are selling you downside protection, they are clipping a fee that has a profit margin.

For instance, you might think that you would be fine capping your upside at 5 percent. But you actually need the 20 percent year to make up for the 0 and 2 percent years and average out to long term equity returns, and you are paying the insurance company 15 percent of principal in the up year to feel clever when the market is down 5 percent some other year and you are flat. Obviously it's more complicated in reality, but I assure you that the insurance company has run the numbers. You will do better at Vanguard unless you have very high wealth, income and negotiating ability (and even there you are not profiting at the expense of the insurance company, but at the expense of our terrible tax law and cutting back the insurer's margins).

If you are really conservative in this market, your expected real returns are zero or negative. You can't afford to pay fat fees out of those returns because you feel like your mental math can outperform the work of a company that literally has no business other than writing negative EV contracts for you.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125865)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 15th, 2015 11:22 PM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

How do you feel about just plain vanilla 10 pay whole life with a mutual company?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125983)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 12:34 AM
Author: Trip station becky

what are you trying to get out of it? Why do you want money to be paid on your death even if it is 50 years from now? why not term and low cost investments instead?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126377)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 8:52 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

Safe conservative return, off my taxable balance sheet.

I don't believe in the equity markets over the long term.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27127238)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 1:06 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

MassMutual has a decent 10-pay product, but someone pretty credible (I think James Hunt) has commented that it's still a high-load product, when compared to a blended product.

I am considering going for a blended policy from Penn Mutual that effectively emulates a 10-pay in that it is paid up in 10 years but I can keep on adding premiums after that if I want.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126511)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 16th, 2015 8:54 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

Mass also has that. Every product will be high load, no way around that. If you make sure you can afford the premium and don't surrender the policy, it's fine.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27127246)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 16th, 2015 11:44 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

While there is some truth to the pricing critique, I think it is not as bad as one might expect if (1) the company is a mutual and is obligated to distribute its surplus or profit margins to policyholders anyway; and (2) economies of scale in purchasing options + tax deferral means that the insurance company can do this more efficiently than you can yourself.

In my view one of the problems with IULs is more that you're taking on a more risk then with straight whole life for a little more yield. Although this is true of virtually all straight universal life policies, most of those policies are based on fixed income so that it's safe to assume that the cash value will accrue fast enough to offset the increases in costs of insurance as you get older. However, with IUL, if there is a string of years where the market is down, even though you may not lose money directly, you will still have low/zero increase in cash value while the cost of insurance increases. So, you could lose money that way. This is particularly true if you take out policy loans, meaning that you'll be hit with a large negative spread between the interest rate fixed by the insurance company, plus the cost of insurance increase. (Of course, you could argue that if the market increases, you can gain a lot by taking out a policy loan, investing the loan proceeds in equities, and then obtaining a positive spread between the loan interest rate and teh cash value, plus gains in equities outside the policy).

Another risk is that the insurance company typically has the contractual right to change the caps on yield and the guaranteed floor. IIRC that has happened with a few IUL insurers.

All in all it is not too bad, not as dangerous as VUL but not as safe as straight whole life or UL. I would think that the yields would be slightly better then whole life over a long term but it may not be better as a liquidity reservoir due to lack of guarantees.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27326162)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 16th, 2015 1:21 PM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

What are your thoughts of getting long term care policies for my parents (either as a rider to a whole life or stand alone).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27326484)



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Date: February 16th, 2015 6:34 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Unfortunately, I've never looked into LTC issues (silly, as LTC is probably one of the most important things out there). I've heard that some people use gUL w/LTC riders for this purpose. Don't know how it works out cost-wise, though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27328708)



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Date: February 16th, 2015 9:40 PM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

Mass seems to have a good product on this too.

I am thinking of getting it for my parents to hedge my inheritance

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27330238)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 12:39 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Not a math bro, just am interested in life insurance because I am a conservative investor like you.

The VULs/IULs are interesting, but one thing to watch out for is whether the VUL/IUL distributes and reinvests stock dividends. I've heard that at least some insurance companies will not distribute the stock dividends, which would be a significant hit in yield.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126403)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 8:55 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

None that I have seen give the dividends. The concept that they can hedge better than me and give me some crumbs seems to make sense. My alternative to it isn't buying SPY, it's being in cash.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27127253)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 2:20 PM
Author: marvelous slimy university

Term is still a good bet if you have kids / good hedge

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122812)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 2:43 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

So this is the way that a good blended whole life policy should behave (of course, dividends/returns are going to be much lower now due to current low interest rates). If ur "financial advisor" pitches u something substantially different, then u know that something's up.

Year Premium Total_Prem Dividend Cash Value

1992 8,951 8,951 9.25% 8,688

1993 8,951 17,902 9.25% 18,173

1994 8,951 26,853 8.50% 28,338

1995 8,951 35,804 8.50% 39,351

1996 8,951 44,755 8.50% 51,286

1997 8,951 53,706 8.50% 64,213

1998 8,951 62,657 8.80% 78,423

1999 8,951 71,608 8.80% 93,872

2000 8,951 80,559 8.80% 110,662

2001 8,951 89,510 8.80% 128,933

2002 8,951 98,461 8.60% 148,525

2003 8,951 107,412 8.20% 169,159

2004 8,951 116,363 7.70% 190,584

2005 8,951 125,314 7.50% 213,237

2006 8,951 134,265 7.50% 237,553

2007 8,951 143,216 7.50% 263,645

2008 8,951 152,167 7.50% 291,632

2009 8,951 161,118 6.50% 318,661

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27122960)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 3:37 PM
Author: bonkers turdskin trust fund

I feel a little bad for the biglaw bros that commit to this shit and then get axed. They've either gotta forfeit the thing and take a big loss, or somehow keep making payments from who knows what?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123243)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 3:42 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

yeah, part of the problem is that the model is generally unsuitable for the typical biglaw associate's trajectory of moving to a lower-paying job in a few years.

if u do go with a policy, insist on a policy optimized for early cash accrual that is (1) paid up within a decade, preferably with the option to continue premium payments in the future at ur sole discretion (2) has a broad range of premium payment minimums/maximums so u can effectively suspend payments if u need to; (3) little or no surrender fees in the event ur policy lapses); and (4) is blended, so that u break even early on and won't lose much/anything if u have to surrender the policy early on.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123284)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 3:50 PM
Author: Sepia hall

when you're truly wealthy you get one of these:

http://wealthmanagement.com/insurance/tax-efficient-investing-through-private-placement-annuity-and-life-insurance-investment-ac

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123324)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 4:16 PM
Author: appetizing insanely creepy gas station

LOL, I'd like to get a job selling this shit to people.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27123433)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 7:45 PM
Author: Mentally impaired boyish indian lodge community account

It surprises me that any biglawyers would be sufficiently gullible and have enough free time on their hands to even agree to meet up with these "investment advisors." Lawyers are generally pretty skeptical and cynical folks. I have never stayed on the phone for more than 30 seconds with these guys, but every time it's been abundantly clear that they were angling to pitch a wildly inappropriate high commission insurance product.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124553)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 7:59 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

The lack of free time is what lures biglawyers in, though. Most biglawyers don't really think about financial management beyond paying down student loans because they don't want to think about yet another administrative item.

And biglawyers are very risk adverse. When you dangle the prospect of a conservative, purportedly high-interest, tax-deferred savings vehicle, it's quite appealing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124643)



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Date: February 17th, 2015 1:59 PM
Author: glassy striped hyena

A long, long time ago, when I was a junior associate, one of these guys show up under the guise of a financial adviser. I grew up poor so I took his meeting thinking maybe he can help me out a bit.

He shows up and quickly goes off on these stupid fucking tangents about whole life. I didn't even know where to begin in asking him questions. Anyway, I ask him what his commissions were. He said something like, "I'll be honest with you. I do get a commission. But it's only fair that a man gets paid for his work, am I right? Anyway, let's talk about your potential upside here." I responded like, "Well, I'm paying your commission one or or another, right, and I don't care if you get paid; I just want to know how much it costs me."

I kept on asking him about his commission, and kept on dodging, and then I said, "Well, I don't think we can do business" and showed him the door. He was acting like I was an asshole for asking how much he made.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27334323)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 8:13 PM
Author: Mind-boggling medicated place of business brunch

If I go before my gov student loans are paid off, is my wife or dad or anyone responsible for them?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124694)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 8:37 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

did they co-sign? pretty sure if you kick the bucket fed loans are forgiven. not necessarily so for private loans (there have been horror stories in the news about this lately)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124822)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 9:00 PM
Author: Mind-boggling medicated place of business brunch

I don't think they co-signed, but I do remember having to provide information for two additional people.. I put down my dad and my uncle but it was like 2 lines and I don't remember them signing anything.

anyone remember what I'm talking about? the gov loans don't need a cosginer, right?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125008)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 3:16 AM
Author: glittery parlour

yes they do dna tests of all your blood relatives and throw them in debtors prison one by one till someone pays off your gradplus loans

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126823)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 8:20 PM
Author: Maroon motley stage

Did u see the 60 minutes story where they talked about how employers make money off employee life insurance policies? It's a scam. Big corps make tens of millions when their employees die. They get part of the proceeds. Thats why a lot of big corps evne offer it cause half goes to the employee's beneficiary, the other have goes to the corp. America never not scamming the little guy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124721)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 8:39 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

you sure that's not because they bought a policy on the employee's life? that's fairly common for important employees.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124832)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 8:42 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

I saw an article stating that this was for regular workers, and not execs like that BOLI/COLI stuff

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27124860)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 10:16 PM
Author: Maroon motley stage

the 60 min story was how it was for everyone not just execs.. even shit janitors and stuff.. they make tons of money cause in any given year like 3% or whatever o their workforce dies

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125516)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:25 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

even so, so what? it doesn't do any harm to the dead guy or his family. and they can't all be making money, if it wasn't a net benefit to the ins co they wouldn't be writing the policies.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128362)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 9:08 PM
Author: magical racy ape circlehead

Biglaw folks should only get life insurance that still pays in case of killself

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125070)



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Date: January 15th, 2015 10:08 PM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

I bought one. It is okay and properly designed, but not really a home run. I never cared for it before I had kids because I was always like wait, I gotta borrow the money out of the policy for me to able to use it before I die and then suffer a negative carry on that.

Now that I have kids, I actually assign value to the death benefit and it is part of my vehicle to get all my assets off my taxable balance sheet.

There are some that are market participating (limit your upside but cap your downside so if S&P does 20, you'll get 12, but if S&P is negative, you just get 0 and don't lose)/ that seem interesting - I think those are better.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27125455)



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Date: January 21st, 2015 7:02 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

If you have paid-up additions, you should be able to surrender them for cash value (but a loan is generally better if you intend to keep as much cash as possible in the policy).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160184)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 12:37 AM
Author: wine legend

I love this thread. There should be a law review article analyzing claims against Northwestern Mutual scam artists. One of these guys hounded me for months, and finally I was like "send me a prospectus. send me the legal information on the specific tax shelter. Send me information regarding historic return and broker fees. Send me information regarding the specific assets and asset classes that my money will be exposed to." The guy sent me some puff advertising brochure and I lost my shit on him.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126387)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:02 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

One of the Northwestern Mutual guys told me straight up that there were no commission or fees. I didn't know anything about insurance at the time but it seemed questionable given that even low-load mutual funds have fees.

I later learned that the commissions alone are something like 75%+ of the whole life premium for the first year, PLUS potentially an additional smaller cut on each premium in the next nine years of the policy. This can be greatly reduced by using PUAs/term blending but the agents would never tell us that because that would slash their commissions by about 3/4ths.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126497)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:08 AM
Author: wine legend

Jesus Christ. Shouldn't he lose his license for that? Do they have licenses? I guess I don't know.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126516)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:25 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

I believe they need to be licensed, but those licenses certainly aren't preventing them from making material misrepresentations. Maybe the life insurance agency and regulatory system needs a certain amount of outright fraud to function.

My favorite part was that I asked this particular agent to change the proposed policy by blending it with term and paid-up additions to accelerate the cash accrual. He responded by blending half of it (which would in fact cut his commissions in half), but then DOUBLING the premiums (which would double his commissions). Lol . . .



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126569)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:31 AM
Author: wine legend

God damn. When I was a first year we had a wealthy old senile client that was taken by a fraudster with some bullshit finance scheme for $600,000. The client had been a hell of a businessman when he was sane, and he was a great client, so we kept taking his cases. It was my job to pitch this fraud to the local prosecutors (AG, DA, USAO), and I thought it would be easy. This was textbook fraud. The DA wouldn't even answer my phone call, my friend at the USAO got me in, and they were like we'll think about it, we've got a backlog, and the when I was talking to the AG's office, their fucking eyes glazed over. It was clear that they get this exact same complaint every day, several times a day. It's like 75% of the finance industry is committing fraud and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126595)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:32 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Jfc, that's awful. I've been across a few legit psychopaths who have done similar things, it's really amazing the shit that these guys get away with.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126600)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:47 AM
Author: wine legend

The senile client insisted on suing the guy. The guy was the ultimate delayer. We filed for default judgment at least 4 times. Every time the guy would reappear and say another family member died or some other bullshit excuse. This is after he dodged service for 4 months. We had to hire a fucking 24 hour private investigator. We never got any discovery, he would just ignore it and once he said it was all overbroad. Finally, after spending like 500k in fees, the judge just got sick of his shit and issued terminating sanctions. Obviously the guy was judgment proof so

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126646)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 11:10 AM
Author: alcoholic orchid foreskin corn cake

You raise an excellent point. This kind of shit is going on all around us, and the various prosecuting authorities have no interest whatsoever in going after these shitbags.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27127724)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:30 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

I've been down this road with local prosbros and AG's offices, trying to get them to look at something that was clearly criminal fraud. They are fucking useless. It's so infuriating.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128378)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:19 AM
Author: odious chrome ceo stag film

My guy also said things that in my research I found to be demonstrably false after the research.

Cant blame these people. There is no high income group of people with as little financial savy as lawyers. Literally 90% of lawyers I know couldn't tell you the difference between and active or passive managed fund.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126552)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:21 AM
Author: wine legend

I think lawyers are tough because our job is to sift through bullshit. I was an engineer in a prior life, and that is a gullible bunch of dudes who make solid money. A lot of them got stung by Northwestern Mutual.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126557)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 1:29 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Pretty much. I have to credit the Northwestern agent with getting me pissed off and paranoid enough to research not only insurance policies, but a bunch of other load factors for mutual funds and the like and overhaul my portfolio as a inadvertent result.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126589)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 2:40 AM
Author: wine legend

We should all record meetings with northwestern scammers and put them on YouTube

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27126779)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 8:56 AM
Author: adventurous translucent juggernaut shrine

whole life is for estate planning by the wealthy - not wage slaves. All you need is term life while you have kids and/or a mortgage

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27127254)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 12:55 PM
Author: flushed associate pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27128186)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 8:13 PM
Author: Pearly Blathering Multi-billionaire

https://twitter.com/Bad_Stock_Tips/status/539336484881707008



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27130596)



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Date: January 16th, 2015 8:44 PM
Author: wine legend

Lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27130802)



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Date: January 17th, 2015 8:14 AM
Author: sienna crawly clown gaming laptop

When I started at my current firm, I had a Northwestern Mutual guy after me for a year and a half and he came in to give me several sales pitches. I ultimately passed but did buy some term life from him once I knew we were having a babby. Wife and I each had $500k term policies, so I just bought an additional $500k on her and an additional $1 mil on myself. I'm sure he's going to be after me in the future to "upgrade" to whole life, but fuck that.

A couple partners in my office have whole life policies with him, and I assumed that was why he hit me up. Didn't realize these dudes swoop in when a new associate starts and pushes this shit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27133198)



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Date: January 17th, 2015 8:43 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

They sure advertise a lot during college football games too

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27133219)



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Date: January 21st, 2015 6:20 PM
Author: curious idiot french chef

This entire thread is 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160032)



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Date: January 21st, 2015 7:30 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

xo is not COMPLETELY toxic and useless

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27160369)



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Date: January 23rd, 2015 3:15 AM
Author: odious chrome ceo stag film

I told my Northwestern Mutual guy I was not interested in the product and cancelled the second appointment. Guy literally still showed up at the reception of my law firm and asked to see me and emailed me saying he understood I was not interested but had to show me how amazing the projections were.

Told receptionist to show him out the door. What a fucking joke.

I think anytime a sales pitch gets that aggressive, I'll just assume it's a scam going forward.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27169591)



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Date: January 23rd, 2015 3:51 AM
Author: Deranged Generalized Bond

hey anyone have an opinion on this product:

https://us.axa.com/life-insurance/universal/variable/incentive-life-optimizer-II.html#tabName_ResponsiveTab3

the pitch is that you pick some basic index funds and your money grows tax free in the insurance vehicle. The salesman said you can withdraw the cash value without any taxation too but i need to dig deeper because i'm not sure the documentation confirms that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27169647)



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Date: January 23rd, 2015 3:56 AM
Author: brilliant spot

basically, anything but the most simple insurance contracts are either scams or estate-planning tools for the rich.

the average insurance purchaser is dumb and ignorant, so the insurance companies use their superior knowledge to shove unfavorable terms into their products. the more moving parts in a contract, the more the insurance companies and their salesmen can fuck you.

simple products, on the other hand, are kept honest because they're easy to compare and mostly informed people are buying them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27169656)



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Date: January 23rd, 2015 3:44 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

there are a number of potential issues with that policy.

first, it's unclear how much sales commission ur salesman will take away. for example, say ur premiums are 10K per year. if indexed variable insurance has a commission structure similar to whole life, then ur salesman could walk away with nearly all of ur first year's commission plus even more down the road. take a look at the accumulated cash value in the first year -- if it's significantly less than ur premiums, that's not a good sign.

second, the fees on the index funds offered within the policy are much higher than those charged for low-load index funds w/vanguard, TIAA-CREF, etc. for example, the lowest-load fund on the AXA policy appears to have a load of .70%; most of them are > 1% load. that is VERY unfavorable when compared to vanguard's load of .05% for, say, VTI.

just glancing over the policy terms, it looks like the insurance wrapper will cost u at least 1% annually for the first ten years, too. there are also other misc. charges that will add up too.

so i wouldn't be surprised if there is a a drag of at least 2% on ur investments on top of the very substantial cash accrual problems.

there also appears to be a surrender fee so if u want to get out of the policy, u will incur additional costs.

so the Q is whether taking the initial cash accrual hit (let's say that u lose 10K the first year, plus 1K for the next nine years), plus a 2% drag on ur investments, is worth the tax deferral. i think the answer is very likely "no" especially if u're investing in tax-efficient ETFs but u'd have to crunch the numbers to confirm.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27172375)



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Date: January 23rd, 2015 6:10 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

you should be blogging this shit for a wider audience

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27173272)



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Date: January 24th, 2015 12:32 AM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

ha, i would if i were more confident about my conclusions, but each policy is so complicated that it would take dozens of hours to fully understand each one. i think that brandon at theinsuranceproblog.com makes the best case for insurance, and white coat investor at whitecoatinvestor.com makes the best against insurance. so between those two there is some pretty decent coverage.

it looks like the cash accrual hit is about 6% per premium payment on the AXA product + the other fees, so in the aggregate not nearly as bad as whole life insurance. but, tons of high-load index funds. in a way, it's brilliant; they lock u into a universe of funds that they (or their partners) run, so u have no choice but to pay them fees for ur investments.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27175598)



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Date: January 23rd, 2015 6:25 PM
Author: comical apoplectic piazza

saaaaavy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27173384)



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Date: February 16th, 2015 2:57 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Not to beat a dead horse, but for any of u biglaw ladies and gents out there, keep in mind that the whole point of these VUL/UL/whole life policies is to gain a fraction of the benefits of a Roth IRA. The only benefit that Whole life and UL have over a Roth IRA + term insurance is that Whole Life and UL have greater liquidity over gains and slightly better options w/ur death benefit.

That's not to say that whole life and UL are bad (actually I think optimized policies are quite good), but this shows how powerful Roth IRAs are. If u aren't doing a backdoor Roth IRAs every year (and u don't have a trad IRA that could fuck up the conversion) u are throwing away a huge opportunity.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27327044)



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Date: February 17th, 2015 12:25 PM
Author: chartreuse national

I'm meeting with one of these northwestern guys on thursday. I told him I wasn't going to give him a dime or give him any leads. He still insisted. He's a close friend of a close friend so it's difficult to straight up tell him to fuck off. Finally I agreed to get coffee. I already told him I'm not interested in his product and explained why.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27333772)



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Date: February 17th, 2015 12:35 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

some key questions for him assuming that he is pitching whole life insurance (i don't necessarily know the answers to these, but i would be interested to know NWM's stance):

(1) what is his total sales commission, not just for the first year;

(2) if he doesn't suggest blending with term, suggest it; also ask if you can use term outside the policy which can accomplish the same objective of raising the MEC limit and may be cheaper than cash inside;

(3) why has NML's dividend consistently trended down (around 5%, iirc) so that it is lower than Penn Mutual (6%) and Mass Mutual (8%, though this may not be the net figure);

(4) how will NML react to the persistent low-interest rate environment, and what will happen if interest rates suddenly rise;

(5) what is the spread between NML's interest rates on policy loans and the dividends; is this fixed by contract or does it float; why is NML's interest rate so high at 8%

(6) what is the breakeven point in CSV (should be around year 5-6)

(7) what is the ultimate distributable CSV as time goes on (that is, even if ur policy accumulates lots of cash, not all of it may be distributed, which is important for retirement planning)

(8) are there any surrender charges

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27333832)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 17th, 2015 12:39 PM
Author: chartreuse national

Can you post some links I can use to confront him with this stuff? I'm sure he'll try to sell me. I'm not sure I want to bone up for some meeting I don't even want to go to

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27333861)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 17th, 2015 12:47 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

sure -- all of this assumes that he's pitching whole life and not VUL or some other cash-value variation, but here are some links. FYI I really like the guy who runs the blog as he knows a lot and actually owns the kinds of policies that he sells:

for an introduction to blending: http://theinsuranceproblog.com/whole-life-blending-does-cash-value-life-insurance-design-really-matter/

more on blending: http://www.glenndaily.com/documents/blending.pdf, http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/Misc-Observations-Life-Insurance-2011.pdf

for an illustration of a past NML policy designed by an actuary that actually broke even early on: http://theinsuranceproblog.com/does-blended-whole-life-really-work-historical-proof/

(this approach still works but i checked with an NML agent recently and yields are disappointing, around 2% IRR at 10 years, so i am not sure if i would even go with an optimized NML design)



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27333901)



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Date: February 17th, 2015 1:24 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Below is a telling excerpt from the Hunt consumer report. Note that on a pure WL product (the one that's usually pitched), commission and sales charges are > 85% of the first year's premium and up to 7.5% of the premiums for the next ten years. In other words, if you're paying in 10K per year, you just LOST 8.5K in the first year alone, and another 7.5K over the next 10 years just to sales commissions and taxes.

Alternatively, you can minimize the proportion of WL and use term to fill in the missing death benefit. Over time, you use your dividends and riders to add "paid up additions", which are the same thing as pure WL, but cost way less (~5% fees, most of which are taxes). Say your yearly premium is 10K, but only 2.5K of that is WL. That means that you only lose about 2.5K (2.1K + ~$400) in the first year's premium to sales. And over the next ten years, you only lose 5.6K to sales fees/taxes.

Over a long time, you end up with pretty much the same policy, since the paid-up additions (the tiny whole life policies) gradually replace the entire term portion. But, the yield on a blended policy is >>> the yield on pure whole life. Equally important, the blended policy starts accumulating cash value immediately, which means you can start using this cash right away via policy loans.

***

Blending can be very effective for a proposed buyer of a cash value policy. Most conventional whole life sales illustrations show a zero or near-zero first year surrender value. (Universal Life and Variable Universal Life operate with explicit surrender charges while Whole Life has implicit surrender charges. Thus with WL one sees a zero cash value in the illustration but UL and VUL show two columns of cash values, one with several names, depending on the life insurer’s choice of terminology: Cash Value, Account Value, or Policy Value. Each of these is before application of any surrender charge; each represents the cash value that is invested. The column with the lower values, whatever its name, is the surrender value. The two columns converge in the year when surrender charge is zero.) If WL, you are probably looking at a unitary contract: one premium and one policy form, say a $500,000 face amount with $20,000 premiums. Commissions and sales charges on a garden variety WL like this might consume up to 85% of the first year’s premium and up to 7.5% of premiums for years 2 to 10, and, of course, the life insurer has its own costs of the medical evaluation and other administrative expenses. Note that, roughly speaking, in year one, this WL insurer’s ―amount at risk‖ is not $500,000 but $500,000 less some fraction of the first premium that’s left over, perhaps zero. (Note also that with reinvestment of dividends in paid-up additional insurance (PUAs), death benefits will rise in future.) If a cash value develops in year two, the insurer’s amount at risk will be reduced by the cash value, and so forth in subsequent policy years. We could, if we wished, call these reducing amounts at risk ―term insurance.

Using the $500,000 example, there are normally three components of a blended policy, which the author refers to as a WL hybrid: (a) a base WL policy of, say, $100,000, paying full commissions; (b) a one-year term (OYT) rider with different names for $400,000, also producing full commissions but on the much lower dollar component of the total premium; and (c) a paid-up additions (PUA) rider in a premium amount that can be $20,000 less the premium for (a) less that for (b). The PUA rider goes into the policy

at a premium deduction of, say, 8%, with commissions of a bit less than half that to the agent; the savings come from component (c). For purposes of comparing the resulting blended or hybrid illustration to the original illustration, the premium should be kept the same, $20,000; one matches the premium, then compares resulting death benefits and cash surrender values. Normally, this hybrid produces a level death benefit while a conventional WL proposal shows a rising benefit from PUAs; in this event, we suggest increasing the OYT rider such that the total death benefit is higher than the rising death benefit for about 12 or 13 years, roughly matching the full commission policy’s death benefits over 20 years.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27334070)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 18th, 2015 7:54 PM
Author: Arousing Plaza

wait, did I write this?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344571)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 7:59 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

many poasters here prolly have met the same cast of characters from NML throughout the years

bring the blending consumer federation doc with u to the meeting. ask about the IRR of NML for policies originated NOW (not the stuff that he/she might show u about policies originated in the '80s). ask if other insurance cos have higher IRR for new policies.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344614)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 7:52 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

One of the objections to whole life is that you have to pay large premiums over a long period of time or the policy will lapse. But, this is largely addressed by blending the policy with term and using paid-up additions. Besides accruing cash value much faster and generating much better internal rates of return, blended whole life also gives you much more flexibility in terms of paying the premium.

All blended policies still require you to pay the whole-life portion of the premium for the policy to stay in force (or, alternatively, pay that portion from dividends or the cash value). However, if your policy is blended at 2500 whole life/7500 paid-up additions, some policies will permit you to pay just 2500.

Of course, if that happens, your whole life policy will behave like a pure whole life policy for that year, i.e. have crappier cash accumulation that year. But, it won't lapse. This effectively gives you much of the flexibility of a UL policy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344550)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 7:59 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

keep poasting this shit bro, i'm still reading and enjoying.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344621)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 8:01 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

tyft, i am a man obsessed with cash-value insurance and can't stop, won't stop poasting about it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344643)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 8:09 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

i am shitlaw boss, or shitlaw boss lite anyway, and we have a fair amount of wealthy clients who we end up counseling on investments, etc. you should see some of the shit (not just life insurance, but that's one of them) that these people bring us to review... hopefully before they sign up but often after. this isn't my area of expertise, that's up to the main shitlaw boss, but i'm in on a lot of these meetings and although i can usually smell a scam it's nice to be able to explain why it's a scam and how to make a certain investment less scam-y.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344715)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 8:17 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

that's pretty smart, you can build up a lot of credibility with your clients by lifting the veil.

i have seen a bunch of biglaw lawyers get trapped into high-load VULs and the like. which is not to that all insurance products are bad, but when they're bad, it's sort of mind-boggling just how bad they are. morally speaking, pitching these policies seems to be on the level of white-collar crime.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27344797)



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Date: February 18th, 2015 9:00 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

yeah, we have some people who are in decent and fairly complicated life insurance plans... so i know they can be used if you know what you're doing. i'm learning bit by bit how to set these up, which is why i'm interested in the thread.

the secretaries call call me 'the cynic' because anytime a transaction or a sales pitch comes up (whether for the firm or a client or just in conversation) my first reaction is usually "that's a scam." but you know what? it usually is a fucking scam, it just depends HOW badly you're getting scammed vs. the alternatives.

i checked out a book on great grifters and scam artists from the library a while back but i never finished it. i think i'm gonna go check that thing out again.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27345223)



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Date: February 20th, 2015 4:34 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

I think what's really interesting about the whole-life policies is that the agents have two ways of talking to you about it

if u have no experience with cash value insurance they will pitch u some absurd policy that nobody in their right mind would buy

if u have some experience with how a cash value policy should behave, they actually start designing stuff in a way that's quite helpful

i find the entire thing fascinating because whole life is simultaneously a scam and a great product and your experience with ur agent will largely be driven by how much reading u've done about it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27357729)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 6:12 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

lawyers think they understand insurance because they copped dat A- in contracts when in fact they are morons. we really are the perfect audience.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364428)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 6:45 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

the thought of a fresh 1st year interested in working in "international law" meeting with a slick salesman from one of these companies makes me cringe

we are basically sheep being herded to the slaughter

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364692)



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Date: February 19th, 2015 1:16 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Phone just rang from a Northwestern Mutual agent. The agent could NOT wait to hang up after I mentioned blending and chasing IRR yield across multiple carriers. But, to his credit, this agent seemed to be pretty honest and point-blank said that whole-life policies are only worth it if u're looking for a death benefit for a survivor. I don't think that's necessarily true (that's certainly not the way I use my policy), but it's unusually fair for an insurance agent. He even mentioned the backdoor Roth IRA as well.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27349374)



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Date: February 20th, 2015 4:25 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Just met with a totally different NML agent. I had requested a 1:999 whole life to insurance blend. He ran a 1:4 blend instead (not intentionally, something probably got lost in translation) and gave me an illustration with an IRR of 1.86% after 10 years and 3.27% after 15 years.

During the meeting, I requested an illustration with the maximum amount of blending permitted, which was 1:20 on a slightly different product with a much lower death benefit. He re-ran the projections, which gave an IRR of 2.58% and 3.77% after 15 years.

Anyway, the point is that even within the same insurance carrier, the design of a whole-life policy can yield very different results. Here, the first design would have been more appropriate for someone who had children due to the markedly higher death benefit. But, the second design would have dominated from the standpoint of accruing cash earlier (in fact, it broke even at year 3), and both short-term and mid-term IRR.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27357663)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 5:10 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

So let's compare several Northwestern Mutual illustrations to show how the stark difference between a scam and (in my view) a reasonable savings vehicle.

First, let's look at a "bad" pure whole life policy from Northwestern Mutual that was pitched to me. That policy would require me to pay about 16K per year into the policy. During the first year, only $1,770 makes it safely into the policy. At year 5, the cash value surrender value of the policy is only $54,301. At year 10, the cash surrender value of the policy is only $143,026. Pretty crappy, considering that you put in 160K of premiums into it and are still about 17K in the hole.

Now let's look at "better" blended whole life policy (blended 1:4) from Northwestern Mutual, which also requires me to pay 16K in yearly premiums. That policy accumulates $11,256 of cash surrender value during the first year, $74,868 at year during the fifth year, and $177,296 at year 10. So, you made about 17K relative to what you put in.

And, the second one isn't really a heavily-optimized policy. There are probably substantially better ones out there. But, the fact is that if you went with option #1 vs option #2, you would have lost about $34K over a 10-year time period. Over time, this difference will grow substantially so it option #1 just gets worse and worse.

Worse, due to the slow buildup of cash in option #1, it would be effectively an illiquid asset. Option #2, on the other hand, would allow you to take policy loans with a slight negative spread between the loan interest rate (about .5% per year, simple interest) and the dividend accrual, and invest in more lucrative options.

You do get a slightly higher death benefit with option #1 (1.15 mil over 1 mil for option #2) but unless you're planning to die soon that doesn't really make a big difference, you could easily buy term to supplement, and the death benefit for option #2 will eventually catch up to and dominate option #1 over time.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364032)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 5:15 PM
Author: chartreuse national

Thanks for this. I finally got through to the guy that I'm not going to buy anything. He asked for references. I gave him the names of people I dislike.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364064)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 5:17 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

that's a 180 tactic and i intend to deploy it in the near future

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364075)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 5:18 PM
Author: adventurous translucent juggernaut shrine

I'm not disagreeing that whole life is a scam, but when you are comparing them to savings, you need to back out whatever you would have paid for a term life policy with the same death benefit (if you have a kid, you must have either a whole or a term life policy). So, your investment isn't $16k a year, but the difference of $16k a year over an equivalent term life premium.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364091)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 5:25 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Fair point, the purpose of the comparison above was to compare WL policies against each other rather than against savings. Term for 20 years is pretty cheap for biglaw associates, like $500 per year or something like that, so you could back out about 5K from the projections above for the 10 year period.

EDIT -- but if we are really comparing term vs whole life in the context of savings, then we'd have to also consider that "savings" could include term + the rest of the 16K premium invested in equivalent assets, like t-bonds or CDs. This would significantly mitigate the cost adjustment from backing out term

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364138)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 6:10 PM
Author: lascivious smoky dingle berry dysfunction

ty

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364414)



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Date: February 21st, 2015 6:17 PM
Author: hilarious really tough guy

I work at an ibank. How come we never get pitched like what you guys are describing?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364468)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 21st, 2015 6:38 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

some of my PE friends have been pitched

but in general it seems like it would be a crap idea to pitch poor-yielding investments schemes to a guy whose profession is to value stuff and maximize yields

lawyers, on the other hand, have no point of reference. most associates have no idea how much the historical annual return on the stock or bond markets are. so when they see something like 3% IRR over 25 years on a bad whole life policy, they have no way of knowing, off the top of their head, that this is a pretty crap place to put their money even given the safe profile of the asset class

this is not even getting into VULs or the myriad other even more complex instruments that get pitched every other week



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27364647)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 22nd, 2015 8:59 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

Have you looked into premium financing - obtaining a loan from a bank secured by cash value of the policy (i.e. not getting a loan from the insurance company and paying the negative carry and using the proceeds to do whatever or to just pay your annual premium)?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27368299)



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Date: February 22nd, 2015 9:12 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

Also, what are your thoughts on when to move the policy over to a life insurance trust and take the ding against your lifetime exemption?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27368320)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 23rd, 2015 10:42 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

bump for eeyore

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27375689)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 25th, 2015 3:03 PM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

last bump

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27389820)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 25th, 2015 3:41 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Sorry PTB, missed these Qs. I haven't looked into these (I'm not rich enough where the trust issue has arose, and premium financing is generally for rich people too) but will let you know if I find anything useful.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27390003)



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Date: February 26th, 2015 12:03 AM
Author: haunting ocher filthpig lettuce

OK, cool. Thanks for all the info and analysis. I was too lazy to do all of it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27393213)



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Date: May 14th, 2015 4:58 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

So I actually began exploring this idea recently and spoke with my insurance contact about it. Apparently premium financing with HELOCs used to be quite popular, although it is not something that happens that often now.

I am analyzing whether it would make sense to use margin loans to finance an IUL. Ideally, during events that increase a risk for a margin call, a policy loan could be issued to address the maintenance margin, with some separate bridge loan capacity to immediately address any margin call as insurance policy loans can take weeks to issue. As with any premium financing, this will only work if the margin loan interest rates continue to stay low. In addition, the policy should have early cash value and low surrender charges (in case of liquidation).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27891579)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 27th, 2015 4:11 PM
Author: Exhilarant bat-shit-crazy stead codepig

Putting aside all the numbers, here are two common-sense questions that u should ask ur agent when he's pitching you a whole life OR term policy:

(1) Does your insurance agent own the same policy with the same design? Only two of the insurance brokers I worked with owned the actual policies with the same design that they were selling, and they were also by far the most knowledgeable about the products. Keep in mind that, as shown above, the fact that an agent owns a policy issued by company X does not mean u should buy a policy issued by company X -- the design of the policy can totally change the commission structure and performance of policies issued by the same company.

(2) In New York, insurance agents and brokers are required, by law, to disclose their compensation, but only if you ask for that disclosure. See http://www.dfs.ny.gov/insurance/faqs/faqs-reg194.htm If your broker or agent is designing the policy correctly, they shouldn't be afraid of disclosing the fee. I'll probably end up paying about 3K up front to my broker in commissions and another 3K over the life of my whole life policy, and his advice was worth every cent.

But, in the words of the former CEO of NY Life, many agents are not so keen to disclose the truth:

CEO: The life sale is a very difficult sale. People have to talk about their mortality, about how much money they really need. It's very complicated. If right in the middle of this discussion, you throw in: 'And by the way, there's a 55% commission,'...You won't get the sale. You've now created enough of a hurdle to kill that form of distribution, and that's the only form that's proven successful in getting life insurance really out. Plus, you're going to create the potential for rebating, which is against the law in most states. There would be pressure for rebates. And once you do that, then you start affecting the income of these agents. Most of them don't even make it. The industry is lucky to keep 20% after four years. If all of a sudden rebating takes place, and their effective commission is cut back because they're trying to compete on commissions, you get rid of the career agency system...and many fewer people would have life insurance."

Sy Sternberg, CEO of New York Life Insurance Co., quoted in Best's Review, February 2005

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#27401768)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 2nd, 2019 10:11 AM
Author: Thriller roommate

This should be bumped every September

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#38174521)



Reply Favorite

Date: May 2nd, 2019 10:14 AM
Author: Vivacious Umber Sandwich



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#38174530)



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Date: March 29th, 2023 3:59 PM
Author: Thriller roommate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#46114734)



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Date: September 23rd, 2023 5:46 PM
Author: Rough-skinned Zippy Range



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2783240&forum_id=2#46834519)