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$120,000 to attend MVP - HOW BAD
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:49 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Got a pretty generous scholarship to MVP, but even with that, I'm looking at $120,000 in total cost. No family support + savings. FML.
Only interested in BIGLAW. Worth it? |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 11:30 PM Author: vermilion talented haunted graveyard What's your current job? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27550392) |
Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:53 PM Author: Dull elite toilet seat So you got $40,000 per year from VP? That sounds like a sweet deal, IMO. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544434) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:00 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Nah, I got $35,000. I put the COL on the conservative side. It may be anywhere from $120,000 - $150,000. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544493) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:01 PM Author: Dull elite toilet seat That's still strong.
FYI, that's the maximum amount of need-based aid that YLS offers.
But I bet we're talking about Michigan here. |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:04 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Nah, it's VP. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544525) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:53 PM Author: Lavender idea he suggested wtf is MVP? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544439) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:02 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Michigan, UVA, Penn. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544514) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:54 PM Author: drunken maroon forum is that taking into account living expenses? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544448) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:58 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Yeah. But I'm not exactly known to be frugal, and $120,000 is on the conservative side. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544481) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:59 PM Author: drunken maroon forum It's really not worth it for that much debt. UG debt? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544487) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:00 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund None. No UG debt, no car payment, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544496) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:01 PM Author: razzle legend stock car no car payment! (no car) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544503) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:03 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund FYI, I have a car. Just done paying that off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544518) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:03 PM Author: drunken maroon forum don't go to law school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544522) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 11:10 AM Author: Hairraiser house If you're not exactly known to be frugal, be wary of thinking $120k isn't bad on BIGLAW. The people who really just couldn't stick to a budget somehow never ended up being able to pay more than the minimums on their student loans even with a BIGLAW salary. So many 5th years who still owed more than 50% of their original balance. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27551986) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:56 PM Author: Rebellious honey-headed friendly grandma seems like a decent deal for P (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544458) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:57 PM Author: razzle legend stock car only go IF you are 100% committed to doing meaningless microsoft office cubicle work for 80 hours/week for the rest of your life. that is a best-case scenario. if you are a straigt white male, you honestly need to shoot for the stars gradewise. youll probably be ok (for a few years) with top 1/3, but really you need to do much better than that to have a shot at a legal "career". if this doesn't appeal to you, DO NOT GO. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544474) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:05 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Damn. Sounds fucking awful. I don't know man - $35,000 is hard to turn down, it's def. a sucker. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544537) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:08 PM Author: razzle legend stock car well first off, the biggest point is that if you dont get biglaw, you will never have meaningful legal employment. that is all there is entry-levelwise. so whatever you do, dont plan on landing into something paying 28-160k. that is the biggest fucking mistake you could make. its biglaw/bighours or nothing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544551) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 10:58 PM Author: frum submissive base So you will be about as in debt as the normal bro who went 5 yrs ago. Lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544479) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:01 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Yea, it's freaking crazy how tuition + fees magically keep going up. It drives me nuts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544510) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:03 PM Author: frum submissive base Serious talk: don't do it. You will regret it, whether you maek it or not. "Best case" scenario (questionable) is you will cop BIGLAW and want to kill urself from having no life and constant anxiety. "Worst case" scenario is joblessness crushing life debt pwning and go back to school for yet another degree or some shit or get on the luis track and go to Guatemala to find yoruself or some shit. Both tracks are awful. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544521) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:05 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Fuck, that sounds awful. LS must be the only option in life where a $35,000 per yr scholly is shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544531) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:06 PM Author: frum submissive base Grad school is worthless unless you get a full package, which doesn't really exist for law or medicine. Go do a program where you can get full tuition waiver + stipend. That way if it doesn't work out you will still have real options and you won't want to kill urself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544539) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 10:31 PM Author: Jet-lagged Becky Sanctuary WTF? how else does someone make 6 figure income with a BA (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27549920) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 1:07 AM Author: mildly autistic dun school A full ride is available Columbia on down and getting more common (how many Levy scholarships does Penn give now?). Pretty much the only credited way to go to law school is T14 full ride, BUT if your other option is a 35k a year liberal arts job, $120k to go to UVa or UPenn state with a commitment to grind it out to get grades sufficient for BIGLAW is better than the alternative. There are not many people who went to that level of school and are willing grind who are making less than six figures at any point in their career. Of course you probably will want to kill yourself in biglaw, but who is to say that liberal arts job would not make you feel the same way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27550841) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:04 PM Author: pale cheese-eating gunner what are ur other options (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544524) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:05 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund Dead-end office job. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544533) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:10 PM Author: razzle legend stock car lol salary? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544558) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:11 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund 60,000 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544576) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:12 PM Author: Rebellious honey-headed friendly grandma 9-5? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544580) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:13 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund yessir. but it's dead-end, no question about it. 60,000 for 9-5, no debt is nice, but not having something to work for (i.e. upward movement) sucks big time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544595) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:46 PM Author: Gold Swashbuckling Spot dumb ass he meant your other options for law school |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 10:19 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund N w/ nada for scholarship. in other words, fuck no.
waitlisted at C and H. |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:12 PM Author: Marvelous hyperventilating karate do u want to do biglaw for a long time?
if so, it's worth it
if not, don't do it |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:12 PM Author: frum submissive base Like someone who hasn't been through law school can know the answer to this question. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544586) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:28 PM Author: Marvelous hyperventilating karate if u lurk/poast here pretty often i think we give a pretty realistic portrait of wut it's like (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544707) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:30 PM Author: frum submissive base Young people are idiots and idolize a self hating lifestyle. This board probably makes a certain kind of person that would poast on this board in the first place even MORE likely to go to law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544719) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:43 PM Author: razzle legend stock car (37yo just reaching positive-net-worth-status) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544840) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:14 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund yea, i don't know man. i'm currently stuck in a dead-end job, and biglaw does sound awful. fucking lose-lose situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544602) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:45 PM Author: drunken maroon forum get a new job (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544853) |
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Date: March 23rd, 2015 11:48 PM Author: Very tactful obsidian sandwich locale Tbf, 120k of debt on PAYE isn't life crushing. If u can cop dat pslf, it's not bad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27544874) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 3:08 AM Author: Thirsty Set Main People I am a class of '09 grad that was in a similar situation to you, and I'll give you a synopsis on how things turned out for me and my classmates.
I took the scholly to MVP (not as generous as yours but better than sticker at YHS) and graduated with about 100K in debt. I graduated somewhere between cum laude and order of the coif. I went biglaw out of school, grinded for 3 years, then jumped ship to big tech in house. In those 3 yrs at biglaw, I lived frugally, paid off all of my debt and maximized retirement savings (i.e. 401k + backdoor Roth). I then went in house with a *slightly* positive net worth. Today, I have about $500K in retirement (market performance + employer match + stock grants) and save about $150K per year, which increases each year w/ salary bumps and stock bumps (all socked away towards retirement). Plan is to exit law in about 5 years because I still hate it. But its given me a path to financial independence. In the end, it's a tossup on whether I regret it. I regret it mostly because I'll end up spending my most productive professional years in a job that I genuinely do not enjoy (the alternative to law school was physical therapy school, which I would have loved to do). However, I feel financially secure, which I don't think I would've achieved had I gone down another route.
As for my classmates, there's still a good amount in biglaw as senior associates hoping to make partner. Others have also gone in-house. Almost all are very well off financially. However, I can think of none that enjoy practicing law.
Based on that (non-representative) data, I would say that in your circumstances, you have a decent shot at a financially rewarding profession. However, unless you really love law (which you won't know until you get your first taste at biglaw), it will likely be at a job that is stressful, tedious and non-fulfilling. It really all depends on what you want. For me, again, I probably do regret going to law school, but I say that from a 'grass is always greener' perspective. |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 3:20 AM Author: Lilac Center Ape just an ordinary middle of the night helpful post on xo....
all of your friends are well off now? |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 3:24 AM Author: Pea-brained den I'm a bit older than this and this is pretty accurate, with a few notes:
1. In house (especially at big tech, whether that means Facebook or Intel) after 3 years is very rare unless you're HYP/HYS-type, in some niche, hot, etc. Being fired by that point is almost as common.
2. This dude had grades decently above the median.
3. His net worth and annual savings sound to be pretty heavily related to stock grants and employer matching. This is also rare. There are people his vintage who still have negative net worths. +$500K as a 5th-year is almost unheard of, especially at an average V100 firm, which is where the average MVP grad might expect to be 5 years after graduation.
*****
We almost all hate our day-to-day lives. I have a great wife I love, a daughter who makes me melt, a nice enough car and home (with significant equity thanks to the past 4 years), an investment portfolio that I'm not embarrassed by, healthy parents I enjoy spending time with, and yet, if you asked me if I could wake up at 55 and retired...I'd think long and hard about it. |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 3:31 AM Author: Lilac Center Ape what % end up out of large/mid-sized firms with debt and negative net worth, essentially the xo story (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27545613) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 4:03 AM Author: Pea-brained den I'm around 10 years out. Rough guess of the people whose names I can still remember and I know something about their career is that probably 1/4 of the class are really sad stories -- not by choice: back in with parents, small town shitlaw, real estate agent, shitty doc review or contract associate jobs, etc. (Not that those are necessarily awful outcomes, but it's the not-by-choice part and that career services told us in 2001 recruiting videos that we would get to choose any job that we wanted.)
At least we all got a few years in before ITE hit hard, but new grads seem to understand better than we did that the train can stop without warning and they can save/act appropriately. |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:32 AM Author: stimulating scourge upon the earth 1/4 of the class are really sad stories (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27546064) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 11:54 PM Author: Thirsty Set Main People I can think of a handful of classmates that initially got shit on by the economy when we graduated, though most have since gotten either solid small midlaw or in house. I don't think any of my friends have necessarily gotten rich from practicing law, though they appear to be financially secure and lead decently upper middle class lives - emphasis on appear, as I honestly don't know what their actual finances are...they could be struggling under a mountain of debt.
Jim_Kelly is pretty spot on in his notes. I'll admit that I somewhat lucked out. But I live cheaply (probably to a fault), but this is done with the intent that I don't plan to be practicing for the next 20 years, so I want to build my nest egg and peace out asap. One note on in house gigs though, which I think is a misconception on XO. It is certainly better in many respects than biglaw, i.e. more flexibility, better perks, less fire drills; but it's certainly not a cushy chill job in any respect. Overall it's probably more stressful because I have a lot more responsibility without the safety net of a partner or senior associate to pass any blame to if shit hits the fan. Plus, I still work a lot of hours. |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 12:32 AM Author: Arousing Boltzmann vault ranking of your firm faggot? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27550715) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:40 AM Author: Floppy puce kitchen i got a similar deal but it's basically worthless with paye (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27546087) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:52 AM Author: peach gaming laptop Are you including your three years of foregone income in your cost calculation? Because it's significant. And if your current job is true 9-5 and you are a hustler, you could skip law school, spend three years working nights/weekends on some kind of side hustle or small business to provide you with dat upward mobility. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27546123) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:55 AM Author: stimulating scourge upon the earth i would fucking kill for a deadend 60k a year job right now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27546130) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:22 PM Author: Sinister corner pretty bad. what are other options? and might you be able to create others over the next few years without making yourself miserable and stacking up 6 figs in debt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27549516) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 10:21 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund no other options - stuck in this one job. i suppose i could do the mba (no shot at M7 - i prob could pull off top 15-20). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27549839) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 9:53 PM Author: Yellow Stain Step-uncle's House keep your 60k job and try to find a way to make it not a dead end. That has to be a better strategy than going into something that COULD pay a bit better but ALMOST CERTAINLY you will hate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27549659) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 10:21 PM Author: Laughsome theatre trust fund fuck, everyone on this boart is anti-ls as it can be..there must be some truth there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27549846) |
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Date: March 24th, 2015 11:57 PM Author: concupiscible alpha I don't think they'd have to pay me that much. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27550558) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 12:21 AM Author: Vibrant iridescent stag film sweet tailpipe I paid about the same after scholarship for a slightly lower ranked school, and I'm a mid level now. It worked out fine financially. If I didn't get biglaw things could have really sucked, but odds were pretty good when I went. Not sure what that looks like now.
Whether you will enjoy being a lawyer is a separate question. You probably won't, but some people do. |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 12:34 AM Author: Arousing Boltzmann you prob won't enjoy law. you prob won't end up with a noteworthy career.
if you go to P you will prob get biglaw. if you go to M or V the chances are slimmer.
if you get biglaw and last for a few years it will most likely work out in the long term financially.
you will not get rich practicing law. best case scenario you will lead an upper middle class lifestyle and be bored out of your mind. |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 1:27 AM Author: Dull elite toilet seat I harbor delusions of grandeur. If I want a noteworthy career, is it pretty much T5 or GTFO? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27550913) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 11:03 AM Author: Hairraiser house I graduated $120k in debt. Took 4 years in MFH BIGLAW to pay it off, though it was in the shitty bonus era. It wasn't too bad. Could have done it sooner by being cheaper, but BIGLAW is miserable enough without adding a 1-hour commute, roommates, packing your lunch every day, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27551947) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 11:04 AM Author: stimulating scourge upon the earth where u at now? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27551955) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 11:08 AM Author: Hairraiser house Just gave notice today (see other thread), going BIGFED. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27551976) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 11:23 AM Author: offensive church building regret 60K dead end > 120K debt + 3 years opportunity cost (180K) + 30% shot at misery in biglol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27552046) |
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Date: March 25th, 2015 11:27 AM Author: stimulating scourge upon the earth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2837409&forum_id=2#27552058) |