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Lawyers even more fucked: "licensed legal technicians" to flood market:
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:05 PM Author: salmon at-the-ready multi-billionaire One Response to the Crisis in the Law Business
An NYU professor urges lawyers and courts to drop opposition to “licensed legal technicians”
by Paul Barrett July 6, 2015 — 12:18 PM PDT
A large part of the law business is in crisis. Lawyers and judges bemoan a “justice gap”: millions of Americans who need but can’t afford legal services. At the same time, many law school graduates can’t find legal jobs paying a decent wage.
Many factors contribute to this apparent breakdown of the law of supply and demand. Huge tuition-debt loads discourage law grads from taking low-paying public-interest jobs. There’s also the bizarre reality that most grads don’t know the first thing about drafting a contract, conducting a deposition, or doing any of the other practical tasks a lawyer needs to know to make a go of it. How law schools get away with charging such high fees without imparting basic skills is a topic for another day (or many other days).
Meanwhile, Stephen Gillers, an eminent legal ethicist at New York University, offers a partial solution to the justice gap. He recommends wider use of “licensed legal technicians,” the law biz analogue to nurse practitioners who can open their own offices and/or create partnerships with physicians.
In a letter to the New York Times, Gillers writes: “Many traditional legal tasks do not demand the training and expense required for bar membership,” i.e., three years of law school and a six-figure graduation debt. “Advice about a divorce or a landlord-tenant problem, help getting government benefits, and assistance with an immigration issue are examples,” he continues. “Many who need legal advice don’t get it because lawyers cost too much.”
More than a paralegal but less than a bar-accredited attorney, an LLT has to satisfy education and testing requirements and uphold written ethical standards. What’s not to like?
Well, non-lawyers who sort out garden-variety legal tangles at a reasonable price present a competitive threat to licensed attorneys. And those licensed attorneys, acting through their bar associations, have repeatedly sued, or threatened to sue, low-priced competitors under state rules barring the “unauthorized practice” of law.
Nor would an increase in LLTs be good news for newly minted attorneys expecting high prestige and pay. To the contrary, it would force down salaries and drive some attorneys out of the market altogether. Supply and demand would come back into balance through the replacement of lawyers with more economical practitioners.
On a hopeful note, Gillers reports that the Washington State Supreme Court, assisted by the state’s bar, recently blessed the activity of LLTs. Mega-states New York and California are looking into it.
In a follow-up e-mail interview, Gillers cautioned that some lawyers will continue to fight LLTs. “Courts have upheld unauthorized-practice injunctions against non-lawyers who have tried to render modest services the courts deem ‘legal,’ like former legal secretaries who aid parties to a simple divorce in filling out forms,” he wrote. “Courts have also invalidated legislative schemes that create licensing of people to perform services courts deem ‘legal,’ but which save consumers much money.”
Full-price attorneys defend their hostility to LLTs as a way to maintain professional standards and protect consumers from hucksterism. But this kind of supposed self-regulation also smacks of anticompetitive turf defense, a guild mentality that likely hurts consumers of modest means.
Consider the dentists. A February ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court exposed state dental-licensing boards to potential antitrust liability for trying to put non-dentist teeth-whitening technicians out of business. That high court case ought to encourage LLTs to challenge the overlords of legal practice. If the revolution arrives, its slogan might be “Teeth whitening and discount wills for the people and by the people!”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-06/one-response-to-the-crisis-in-the-law-business |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 9:17 AM Author: vivacious flesh toilet seat Lmfao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28281498) |
Date: July 6th, 2015 4:06 PM Author: embarrassed to the bone carmine plaza lol, pepper angus, faggots (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269145) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:06 PM Author: contagious hairy legs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269148) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:09 PM Author: buff harsh pit My job could 1000% be done by one of these people (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269176) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:18 PM Author: slap-happy juggernaut (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269246) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:11 PM Author: Lascivious Indecent School Cafeteria Sound Barrier "On a hopeful note, Gillers reports that the Washington State Supreme Court, assisted by the state’s bar, recently blessed the activity of LLTs. Mega-states New York and California are looking into it."
What in the blue fuck? |
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Date: July 7th, 2015 5:40 PM Author: mustard center They think it will make "access to justice" more affordable.
It won't do much of anything.
Poor-as-shit people can't afford "legal technicians" any more than they can afford shitlawyers. |
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Date: July 7th, 2015 5:49 PM Author: Lascivious Indecent School Cafeteria Sound Barrier Correct. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28277190) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:12 PM Author: Lascivious Indecent School Cafeteria Sound Barrier Is this really a breakdown in supply and demand? Most of the people who need low level legal services are basically indigent. If they have no money, they can't create demand, right? Most of this people couldn't even pay a $100 legal fee. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269191) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:17 PM Author: Sapphire Arousing Death Wish LeRonda DEMANDS you help her get her CHECK from SOCIAL SECURITY that her CRACKHEAD friend at the hair salon advised her that she DESERVES (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269236) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:18 PM Author: salmon at-the-ready multi-billionaire ADVICE IS FREE; SEE YO' LLT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269247) |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 9:17 AM Author: vivacious flesh toilet seat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28281503) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:22 PM Author: Out-of-control heady dysfunction The funny thing is this will leave ATTORNEYS even more indigent (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269274) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:15 PM Author: jade lay I was watching Anthony Bourdain's Shanghai episode over the weekend. He was eating with this Chinese dude who taught at Yale. This guy tells Bourdain that our technology is at a point where we simply don't need 7 billion humans on the planet and, therefore, need to figure out what people are supposed to do all day. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269218) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:18 PM Author: Sapphire Arousing Death Wish we've been talking about this on xo for years (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269243) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:19 PM Author: jade lay 1. I haven't been on xo for years. 2. I was talking about something a chinese guy said on cnn. |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:19 PM Author: embarrassed to the bone carmine plaza 2. He is probably a wgwag threader (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269255) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:20 PM Author: jade lay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269259) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:32 PM Author: Tripping ticket booth idea he suggested Lol who EVER needed many humans? After Black Death human scarsity was the time of true prosperity.
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Date: July 6th, 2015 5:38 PM Author: fantasy-prone saffron range depressive He meant need to labor to supply everyone else with basic necessities. What these lump of labor tards forget is that it opens up more people to work as entertainers and producers of luxury goods, and, as anyone can see, the prices of those products has fallen dramatically and the quality has improved. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269691) |
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Date: July 7th, 2015 7:16 PM Author: Duck-like Station Liquid Oxygen oh YES - music is just AWESOME today.
and books too.
oh and movies - jurassic world was CAPTIVATING (other than the hot redhead, that movie was fucking tired as shit).
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:22 PM Author: slap-happy juggernaut (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269273) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:25 PM Author: Out-of-control heady dysfunction more sensible approach would be to incentivize existing glut of attorneys to take on these fucking shitlaw jobs, you goddamned idiots.
offer some kind of '10 years of shitlaw' and your loans will be discharged program, and suddenly you have a flood of actual attorneys with 150K and no prior jerb, helping people with their shit cases ethically. |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:28 PM Author: Out-of-control heady dysfunction (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269320) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 6:19 PM Author: Exhilarant Nubile Double Fault Mfcr. Law schools would be more favor this as well, if they had to choose (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269889) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:26 PM Author: Red Chapel In a letter to the New York Times, Gillers writes: “Many traditional legal tasks do not demand the training and expense required for bar membership,” i.e., three years of law school and a six-figure graduation debt. “Advice about a divorce or a landlord-tenant problem, help getting government benefits, and assistance with an immigration issue are examples,” he continues. “Many who need legal advice don’t get it because lawyers cost too much.” the niche where you need legal advice, but lawyers cost too much is contradictory, asshole. if you actually need it, then you pay for it at market rates.
More than a paralegal but less than a bar-accredited attorney, an LLT has to satisfy education and testing requirements and uphold written ethical standards. What’s not to like? deal with an attorney with questionable ethics and then figure out how much worse it will be dealing with some shithead who hasn't invested as much time in their career and who has a chip on her shoulder and wants to show up that arrogant attorney. it projects to a disaster
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Date: July 6th, 2015 4:28 PM Author: Out-of-control heady dysfunction jesus you're absolutely right about ethics. attorneys have seven years of advanced education, six figure debt, bar license to lose.
what's to stop some asshole that paid $69.99 to get certified at Costco U from trying anything and everything to scam people/companies/insurance companies for every dime he can touch? A misdemeanor and 30 days suspended sentence? lol. |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 5:34 PM Author: maroon reading party only a problem because of the ridiculous barriers to entry. bar exams should stand on their own, no JDs required (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269674) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 5:36 PM Author: Lascivious Indecent School Cafeteria Sound Barrier False. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269682) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 5:46 PM Author: overrated supple dopamine brunch (guy who is convinced that spending 200k to read casebooks actually trained him to think differently than others) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269737) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 6:16 PM Author: maroon reading party (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269872) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 5:50 PM Author: Red Chapel great argument the shortage of jd's who have passed the bar is ridiculous and has been for a long time why haven't the schools just created more? why these ridiculous barriers to entry. if it was just easier to practice law, we'd have more attorneys, and clients would be better off dumbfuck |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 6:17 PM Author: maroon reading party what are you even trying to say? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269881) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 6:39 PM Author: Red Chapel your point was stupid (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28270004) |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 6:26 AM Author: maroon reading party you don't think three years of mostly pointless education and $$$ in tuition discourages people from entering the profession, particularly those with more modest ambitions and ability? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28281274) |
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Date: July 7th, 2015 11:45 PM Author: Coral Autistic Public Bath "ridiculous barriers to entry"
Ljl. A monkey could get into law. Just do provincial state U, work one hour a week and cop a 3.3 in poli sci, take the LSAT on a whim and get a 153, and then go to some TTT shithole on loans. |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 6:22 AM Author: maroon reading party and lose three years of earnings (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28281272) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 5:57 PM Author: mustard center All 7 of them? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28269797) |
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Date: July 6th, 2015 6:02 PM Author: mustard center “If I can make at least twice my past wages above overhead and have some flexibility in my life and help others, I think I’ll call it good,” Wright said. “Talk to me in a year.”
https://bol.bna.com/washington-state-experiments-with-legal-technicians/
For justice! |
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Date: July 7th, 2015 11:35 PM Author: Adventurous market she knows more than avg jd (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28279795) |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 6:50 AM Author: floppy bearded chad This is terrific news, you fools. I'm going to use my JD to open a new door. The door to the Martin Prince Legal Technincian Academy, where I charge students only $32,000 for a Legal Technician Certification. You guys can be adjunct professors if you want. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28281288) |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 7:46 AM Author: topaz bearded deer antler lodge I'm getting on board. Going to start the "Starbucks" of law (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2928149&forum_id=2#28281322) |
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Date: July 8th, 2015 8:58 AM Author: silver regret *shows up to court in white lab coat*
No your honor, technician actually. |