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BIGLAW --> Tax Boutique 6th-year taking questions (Clausen)
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Date: July 20th, 2015 9:57 PM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Working from home, which means I am on my own computer and can log on to xoxo. What's up brothers? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28377238) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:07 AM Author: puce philosopher-king business firm Pretty sure that I interviewed with you last fall. Your interview persona is fairly bad ass. Thanks for taking Qs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380700) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:23 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Hahaha this I somehow doubt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380775) |
Date: July 20th, 2015 10:00 PM Author: lascivious low-t twinkling uncleanness forum what's a tax boutique (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28377275) |
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Date: July 20th, 2015 10:02 PM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth A firm where the partners are, for the most, part ex-BIGLAW people, that sells itself as a more efficient, slightly better value alternative to BIGLAW. There is a slightly lower billable requirement than most BIGLAW firms, but the pay scale is about 0-15 percent lower (depending on the year). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28377305) |
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Date: July 20th, 2015 10:51 PM Author: ivory prole DC or NY?
What are the typical exit options for V100 NY tax?
Is the tax boutique more "special situations" type work as opposed to straight deal work? |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:10 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379928) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:13 AM Author: Claret Fragrant Dragon Space Is Caplan & Drysdale still hiring? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379940) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:16 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth That's one of the most well-known DC tax boutiques. Along with Ivins, Phillips and Barker and Miller & Chevalier (which also does some other stuff). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379943) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:42 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den I thought big law tax did predominantly deal work. What other kind of work should you be doing if you want to position for in house? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380010) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:45 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Best: If you're at a firm like Skadden that does some controversy work, do some of that.
Also good: Get involved with writing opinions relating to transactions that have already occurred (i.e., is this expense deductible, when? etc.).
Companies need more than someone who can negotiate a tax indemnity on a merger. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:59 AM Author: Appetizing Stock Car "Also good: Get involved with writing opinions relating to transactions that have already occurred (i.e., is this expense deductible, when? etc.)."
Do any companies actually use law firms for Transaction Cost Analyses instead of Big4? |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:01 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Not sure what you mean by your question, but companies use both Big4 firms and law firms to provide tax opinions for either booking tax benefits/reserves and for taking positions on the actual return. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380658) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:08 AM Author: Appetizing Stock Car I just assumed companies wouldn't spend the money on law firms for determining which transaction costs are deductible vs capitalized. Especially since the accounting firm is going to be doing the returns. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380704) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 1:13 PM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Depends on the magnitude of the issue, but I've worked on opinions on that very subject. I'm not sure an opinion from an accounting firm is substantially cheaper either (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28381492) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:23 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Edit: DP (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380770) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 1:32 PM Author: clear floppy native patrolman I went in-house tax after 3 years. You don't need to be all that senior. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28381698) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 9:45 PM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den Comp? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28385612) |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 12:25 PM Author: clear floppy native patrolman A bit under $250k all in. Base is lower, but bonus, stock, pension, 401k match make up for it. 9-5 hours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28403237) |
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Date: July 20th, 2015 10:52 PM Author: Bateful buck-toothed dilemma do u lie when ppl ask u what kind of law u practice? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28377735) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:02 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den (badass litigator) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379915) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:10 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Nah. I don't live to work though . . . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379929) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 7:49 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den what kind of tax do you do
do boutiques mostly do controversy work? |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:12 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379934) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 7:59 AM Author: Translucent at-the-ready potus How long were you in biglaw and how long have you been at your new place? How did you find it and what other things did you consider/interview for? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379910) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:09 AM Author: Cerebral menage jap comp? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379924) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:15 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379942) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:13 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28379938) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:27 AM Author: laughsome mischievous piazza friendly grandma What are you're hours like? Opportunities for advancement? Career plans?
What was you're NYC BIGLAW experience like?
Do you think TAX is the oasis (to the degree anything is) in BIGLAW that some say it is (better hours, more substantive/stimulating work, etc)? How did you get interested in BIGTAX? |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:53 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth CUrrently I work on average about 50 hours a week. Really, it's a lot of 44 hour weeks with some 55-60 ones thrown in there. I will see how things at this firm run its course. As long as things are good I wouldn't leave because it seems sustainable, and maybe would make partner (that would be in 3-4 years).
Otherwise I would consider going to a company or the government, or maybe starting my own firm.
NYC BIGLAW was - it was tough. Tax work at most of those firms is deal work, which means you're working along with the corporate department. You won't be on every single call, but you'll be on a lot of them, often with multiple deals going on at once. The worst of it is you're not billing like the corporate group is, but you're still expected to hang around the office for that 10 pm meeting to go over the latest draft.
All and all, BIGLAW tax does still have some definite advantages over the other practice areas. The billable hours are lower, and you get to bill at a higher rate (to some extent making you more valuable). The work IS stimulating and challenging, and the exit options are decent after a few years. And, even though it is a lot of work, you're not working around the clock like people in securities or capital markets, and you're not doing doc. review like the litigators.
The BEST advice I would give anyone is: (1) take Tax I as early as possible and then, if you like it, (2) take *every tax class your law school offers*. People are often surprised to learn you can get most of the same classes you need for an LLM just in your JD program. Do you ever see anyone get a valuable LLM in anything *but* tax? No, you don't. So, instead of wasting your time on "law and literature" type classes, taking every tax class there is a valuable use of your tuition money, and provides you with the basic knowledge-set needed to succeed in tax. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 8:59 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den What kind of work do you do as a junior in biglaw tax?
My sense is that you'll mostly be doing tax diligence or drafting disclosures, and you won't really touch the interesting part of tax, which is the structuring issues.
Was your schedule more predictable at least in nyc biglaw tax? Compared to other corp |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 9:27 AM Author: blathering chad clown Don't think big law tax associates really do much diligence in the context of transactions--that's more the province of accounting firms. Of course there can be doc review if you are involved in controversy.
Disclosure isn't always boring; depends on role (drafting vs reviewing) and nature of the offering/transaction.
At my firm, juniors do vanilla cap markets, m&a deals, credit agreements, support research for more complicated stuff (structuring), opinions, and sometimes controversy work. Controversy aside, none of this is completely boring when you are a junior. The real issue is dealing with the huge amount of law you don't know. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 9:45 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Don't have much to add. The lifestyle is certainly a bit more predictable than corporate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380243) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:31 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Mostly deal-work, i.e., here's an agreement and figure out the stuff about tax. Sometimes, ancillary to that, tax will provide an opinion that says the transaction consequences are what people expect to them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380522) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:01 AM Author: Self-centered center This is going to seem dumb. But where do you find the relevant authority for tax.
Like litigators use west law, corp bros use old deals, where do you figure out what the tax implications are? Rev rules? Old deals? Statute?
Dumb question but in class they just had the relevant code and rev rules in hand at the start
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:28 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Good question. Of course, the short answer is that the relevant authority for taxes is in (in relative order of importance, subject to some caveats) the U.S. Constitution, the Internal Revenue Code, the Treasury regulations promulgated there under and the cases interpreting these sources. IRS statements on how tax rules should be interpreted are also useful guidance, and in some cases may provide taxpayers with a certain degree of comfort.
There are services such as RIA Checkpoint, Intelliconnect CCH and Bloomberg BNA that allow you to search all of the above at a flat subscription rate. Also, as you might expect there are many good treatises out there that go into various subjects in detail, and there are also a number of publications (Tax Notes being the most prestigious) that practitioners and academics use to better understand the law.
EDIT: Prior deals are very useful for getting language for the deal you're working on and determining what the "market" is. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 9:05 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den For good exit options, what are the top 3 nyc biglaw tax shops (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380083) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:31 AM Author: Self-centered center (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380519) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:32 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth I wouldn't be able to rank them, but any top-tier firm (Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, DPW, Skadden, Debevoise etc) will have good exit options. Other firms down the line have good exit options too, especially where they have strong controversy practices. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380526) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 9:50 AM Author: Self-centered center 1. How's the learning curve for starting Biglaw tax (V10 shop?). Assume you've taken Tax 1/Corporate Tax.
2. For exit options/long-term pay would you go M&A or Tax work (assume a high interest in both).
3. You're awesome. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:35 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth 1. It's pretty brutal because while those classes give you the legal foundation you absolutely need (and I'd had partnership and international to the "necessary" classes), they don't provide you with the drafting skills you need to dissect and edit complicated agreements that you'll be working on.
Most firms will have training to help you on this, and the bar for a stub/1st year is pretty low in terms of what's expected.
2. I'd go tax. A lot more options both in house and in the government, and the lateral firm market is white hot for tax associates (though that's true for M&A associates too right now - I'm talking about midlevels).
3. Not really. Just another law bro trying to make it in this crazy world.
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:41 AM Author: Self-centered center Is it possible to split time doing m&a and tax, like taking a few assignments from both groups at the start? Or once you start in either are you pretty much pot committed to that group?
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:42 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Generally not possible in my experience. Tax is considered a separate group at almost every large firm and is complex enough that one could not reasonably split time and still develop the necessary skill set.
That's talking for associates. For summer associates, firms may allow you to split. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:48 AM Author: Self-centered center Starting as first year. Not a cravath rotation system.
Guess I'll reach out and see what placement plans are. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:52 AM Author: Translucent at-the-ready potus When do you find out what group you are in? Did your offer at the end of the summer specify or do you find out before you begin in the fall? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380611) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:57 AM Author: Self-centered center Put in rankings for groups - put m&a and tax 1 and 2. So I think we find out at the start of fall.
I was off-cycle hire so it didn't. When I interviewed it was with m&a guys.
Should I reach out and see or just wait until fall. I would be happy in either group I enjoy both |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:05 AM Author: Translucent at-the-ready potus Do you personally know anyone in the group you want (if you have decided) that you could reach out to to reaffirm your interest in the group/work? Otherwise the most you can do is send a friendly checkin email to the recruiting or hr person asking when they expect to notify incoming first years of their practice group. It will come down to business needs/which groups liked or wanted certain people. Unless you have a friendly relationship with the hr person or someone in the group, if you've already submitted your preferences not sure what more you could do. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:08 AM Author: Self-centered center I'm friendly with the some of the HR group. I'll reach out to them checking in. I was going to lunch with one of them post-bar just as friends so I'll ask then.
Just was trying to see for XOXO what the general feel was wrt splitting (I know it's a firm and business specific thing)
Thanks guys, you've been super. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:18 AM Author: Translucent at-the-ready potus Very unlikely they would let you split your time and I would not advise it. I have never seen those arrangements work - at my firm they sometimes allow them but the associate always gets screwed because each competing practice group/partner usually still staffs the associate at 100%. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380749) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:29 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth Agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380803) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:32 AM Author: Self-centered center Understood Will 100% figure out placement and decide before Day 1. I just missed on summer so I am going in somewhat blind and really am picking out of two black boxes. |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:43 AM Author: Translucent at-the-ready potus It depends on the firm - if they do a rotation system you might be allowed to rotate through tax and corp. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380572) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 10:51 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth I'm not saying it's impossible, but I've heard of any firm that allows that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380604) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:33 AM Author: Razzmatazz Snowy Keepsake Machete Private Investor 180 moniker are you a domer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380832) |
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Date: July 21st, 2015 11:40 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth No. But I've been a fan of his "pro-ready" mechanics for a long-time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28380867) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2015 10:27 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den Is it usually one partner and one associate on a deal? Does this mean juniors get more responsibility? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28388593) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 12:38 AM Author: blathering chad clown One-to-one is common, except on more complicated stuff. Responsibilty really depends on the partner, but at my firm in the very least a junior tax associate will be expected to manage process and deal with a fair amount of negotiation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28394149) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 7:42 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth That's been my experience as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28395134) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 7:28 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den Is 9-9 with some work on weekends a reasonable expectation, with some crazy weeks in between? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28395116) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 8:30 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth For BIGLAW? That's about right. For the boutique you're overstating the typical week. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28395235) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 8:45 AM Author: Translucent at-the-ready potus Our tax guys work longer hours during busy times but also leave earlier when slow. Since most partners are offline Friday sundown - Saturday sundown they also are expected to field urgent queries during those times. Ugh. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28395276) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 9:01 AM Author: blathering chad clown Those aren't NY biglaw tax hours, at least in my experience. Think 10-8 with an hour or two of weekend work is not unusual at my firm. Obviously hours can be better or worse periodically. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28395317) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2015 9:57 AM Author: useless multi-billionaire ticket booth I guess so. There is a lot of downtime in the 9-9 in any event while you are waiting for the next turn of whatever document you're working on (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28395534) |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 9:39 AM Author: blathering chad clown Sounds like we have had very different experiences. I'm usually staffed on maybe 15-20 matters and am seldom waiting around doing nothing, though it does happen on occasion (usually in connection with private m&a).
But the whole starting at 9 a.m. thing is not something I have heard of in NY biglaw. Thought it was standard to start at 10. |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 11:59 AM Author: Stimulating Hominid Den In terms of getting good experience for exit options like in house, are there particular areas of tax you'd recommend? Private m&a, international etc? What areas to avoid? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28403113) |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 10:47 PM Author: blathering chad clown Hard to generalize--there are many different types of exits. The only thing I'd be wary of is specializing exclusively in controversy--still some in-house options that focus primarily or entirely on controversy, but my sense is that tax associates are more marketable if they have a broader range of experience.
That said, I think the best areas to focus on are those that you like. Bonus points if there's a need in that area. But really, you'll be a better tax lawyer if you enjoy your work. And it will show to anyone who matters. |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 9:42 AM Author: cocky area describe tax consulting (non-law) for a T30 JD bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28402271) |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 12:41 PM Author: ivory prole Excel bitchwork.
If not in major market and no llm, then 50% of biglaw pay for biglaw hours. Exit ops are decent though. |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 12:47 PM Author: cocky area ty
is it really stressful?
describe exit ops-- how long do u need to put in?
asking for my friend...im a biglaw drone |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 1:07 PM Author: Appetizing Stock Car Exit ops would generally be in-house tax department. Biglaw is possible for people with a decent educational background working M&A or International at a Big4. Highest quality exit ops would be in International Tax. M&A Tax has more limited exit ops, but along with International, is the best paying tax specialty group. SALT and Federal Tax (Compliance) pay less, but would have a lot of in-house positions (more accounting like positions than lawyerly ones). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#28403463) |
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Date: July 24th, 2015 1:43 PM Author: ivory prole This is pretty spot-on. I interviewed at 3 of the Big4 and can tell you that the people also tend to be slightly cooler than in Biglaw. If outside of the Big4 (think BDO, Weiser Mazars, etc.) - then it's pretty bleak and the people suck.
Ended up going Biglaw because $$$ tho. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2020 9:49 AM Author: Bonkers Main People Public Bath Update? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2941510&forum_id=2#40699100) |