The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
Will LeBron ever catch Kobe's legacy?
Poast new message in this thread
Date: December 21st, 2015 6:33 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping 1. Kobe has the better legacy at this point. The only question is whether LBJ will catch him in the 3-4 years he has left as a top-flight player (unless he resumes using HGH). He'll have to win TWO finals in his remaining years just to get to .500 (he's 2-4, ljl). And good luck beating GSW/Spurs maybe even the Clippers/OKC in the Finals, unless something major happens like KD leaving OKC.
Before anyone starts with "but but but, 4-time MVP! advanced stats!," consider that:
2. For the years 2001-2004, Kobe and Shaq essentially prevented each other from winning MVP, because they both averaged 28+ (dipped in 2004 because the team had Payton & Malone).
3. Kobe was undisputedly the best player in the league in 2006, and arguably from the 2002-03 season to the 08-09 season.
4. In 03, Kobe and Shaq nullified each other. Tim Duncan won, is obviously an all-time great. 04: KG definitely deserved it. 05: A bit controversial, but Nash improved the Suns by something like 33 wins. 06: Even more controversial in Nash > Kobe.
5. Kobe's 5-2 in the Finals, and before anyone says "but but but Shaq," never forget that LBJ got flatout demolished in the Finals TWICE when he Wade AND Bosh.
6. And in terms of lasting memories, Kobe has supplied countless ones. 2000 vs Blazers, Finals vs Pacers. The whole 01 and 02 playoffs.
A. 2003: When he had 5 dunks that could each qualify as dunk of the year. Scored 40+ in 9 straight games (only Wilt & MJ).
B. 2004: Flew back and forth between CO and games. Hit 2 impossible 3s in the last game of the season vs Portland to pry the division title away from the Kings. Hit another 3 that was responsible for the Lakers' only Finals win in game 2.
C. 06: 81, outscored Mavs 62-61 in 3 Qrtrs, sat out 4th. 4 straight 45+. Carried fuckin' Smush and Kwame to a 3-1 lead over MVP Nash's Suns, again hit 2 clutch shots in game 4 to give them that 3-1 lead. 50 in gm6, but it wasn't enough.
D. 07: 4 straight 50+ (only Wilt); 2 of them were 60+
E. 08: MVP. Flatout demolished the defending champ Spurs 4-1 to get to the Finals. Odom and Gasol did jack shit that series. His other 2 starters were fucking DFish and Vlad Radmonovic. Vs a GOAT Celtics team: Rondo, Ray Ray, Pierce, KG (the last 3 were all still in their prime).
F. 09-10: Hit more game winners than you can count. Destroyed the Magic in the 09 Finals 4-1, averaging 33. Squeezed a tough one out vs the same Celts.
G. '13: 38mpg at age 34. First, at the All-Star game, he straightup embarrassed LeBron (when it got competitive). Went on a rampage in March to get the Lakers into the playoffs. When he tore his Achilles, he still walked to the line to sink his 2 free throws as the Lakers won by 2.
H. If it weren't for the Achilles, Kobe would've had 2 more years of 25ppg+ in him. And all throughout, not just this year, road arenas loved Kobe even if they hated the Lakers and wanted them to lose. All road arenas HATE LeBron.
7. LBJ's "memories"? 48 vs Pistons in 2007 (which was objectively great). Game-winning 3 vs the Magic in 09 (but still lost the series). Played like shit vs the Celts in '10. Flat-out choked vs Mavs in '11. Airballed a 3, and bricked another 3 in Game6 of the Finals vs the Spurs and would have lost the series right there if he didn't have the GOAT 3pt shooter (Ray Ray) bail him out. '14, '15? ljl.
Go ahead, just try to think of lasting LeBron memories. He has fewer, and the ones he does have (besides 48 vs Pistons) are dim compared to any of Kobe's.
8. Kobe: 20yrs with LAL. LeBron: Let me take my talents to SoBe for a few years, then I'll come back to CLE when my prime is declining so that I can team up with 2 younger AllStars than Wade & Bosh.
9. And the most devastating comparison? https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg
LeBron camp, retorts? |
 |
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:47 PM Author: Maroon indecent heaven headpube Serious ? how fucking long did it take to type that? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29703149) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 10:51 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping had a back and forth FB message debate with a friend. I don't type screeds just for xo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29703817) |
Date: December 21st, 2015 6:38 PM Author: Mint locus Kobe has a legacy? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428536) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 6:39 PM Author: yapping gas station Libs, pls respond (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428543) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 6:43 PM Author: yapping gas station On point about the 2013 all star game. lost all respect (the very little I had) for Lebron. When the competition gets tough, he wilts like a fucking faggot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428560) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 7:00 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Bro, Kobe has been making LeBron look like an ass clown long before that 1 quarter in the 2013 All Star Game.
Remember in 2007, in the Team USA scrimmage before the Olympics, Kobe straight iced LeBron's team and then defended LeBron into a potential gamewinner...that hit nothing but backboard?
If you watch this 2min video (I linked to a specific time in the 4th Quarter of the 07 Team USA scrimmage, probably the most competitive game ever between Kobe and LeBron). Kobe straight ass-gaped LeBron on like 10 consecutive possessions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpoBaEePpdc&t=5m35s |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 7:59 PM Author: yapping gas station Lol at this faggot. But tbf, this happened when lbj wasnt at his peak post- 2010s.
|
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 8:51 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping I think he averaged 31 the season right before that scrimmage in 2006. He didn't have a post-up game or much of a 3, but he had developed quite a lot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29429451) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 6:51 PM Author: khaki cumskin Lebron better get a'rapin' if he wants to catch Kobe. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428604) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 7:22 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping he has ~3 years left where you can still argue that he's the #1 player in the league, but it's evident he's declining since peaking in ~12, '13.
This year, can the Cavs beat GSW/Spurs, or even LAC/OKC in a 7 game series? (if LAC can finally get their shit together).
Next year, KD may move. But if he doesn't, he and Westbrook are hitting their strides, while LBJ is declining.
How will he catch Kobe? |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 6:52 PM Author: Fantasy-prone den degenerate Depends. If you ask people who look at boxscores, Lebron surpassed Kobe in his rookie season. For everyone else, Kobe is the greater player and will probably remain so. Lebron will definitely be top 10 though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428613) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 7:13 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Box score shitlennials are just as bad as "advanced stats" shills. Basketball is at bottom a game played and WATCHED, not analyzed by neckbeards on reddit or ESPN or whatever.
You're just saying LBJ will def be top 10, but you have no idea how crowded it is up there. Who is he going to edge out, out of this group (not necessarily in rank order, just whoever comes to mind first).
1. MJ 2. Wilt 3. Magic 4. Bird (3 consecutive MVPs, the first great 3pt shooter, 3 for 5 in the Finals) 5. Kareem 6. Kobe 7. Duncan 8. Shaq 9. Bill Russell 10. I'd say Hakeem A. most graceful big man ever. B. HOU picked him #1 over MJ @ #3, and it's a testament to how great Hakeen was that no one ever doubted Hakeem going #1, even 10 20 years later. C. 2x DPOY (#1 all-time in blocks, but def top 3 with Wilt/Russell, top 10 all time in STEALS) D. 94 MVP, 94 & 95 Finals MVP (esp in 95, when he straightup clowned MVP D-Robinson and then swept Shaq in the Finals even though Shaq had Penny/Horace Grant, and Hakeem had a washed up Drexler, Kenny Jet Smith, and...Otis Thorpe) E. Posted a Quadruple Double
Again, that was in no particular order. Jerry West, Oscar Robertson could be up there too.
|
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 2:01 PM Author: aphrodisiac hospital Bron easily beats out Hakeem. Even if he retired after this season. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29440371) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:18 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Hakeem went 2 for 3 in the Finals, lost in 86 to Bird during Bird's 3rd consecutive MVP year. As many Final MVPs as LeBron, 3 fewer losses. And Hakeem didn't play against joke competition: https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg
And points A-E about Hakeem above. Shit, even Shaq would say Hakeem > LeBron, and Shaq played with LeBron and doesn't like admitting other big men were on his level.
But, even if he beats out Hakeem, you'd still agree that he's still quite a bit behind Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq? And J-West/Oscar Robertson, assuming comparability across eras (as we must for an "all-time" list), are debatable vs LeBron but not vs Kobe/Duncan/Shaq? |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:37 PM Author: aphrodisiac hospital Oscar and West aren't debatable. Neither is Hakeem. And this is if Lebron were to retire today. Let's not forget that he is only 30. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441205) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 2:16 PM Author: Very tactful public bath potus Within 6 years, Lebron will get 2-3 more titles, and he will surpass:
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Shaq
Hakeem
Bird
And he will have tied Magic |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:25 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping He's 31 this year. He'll already exiting his prime and will fall even more steeply @ ~34-35 (but still very good). Sort of like how Kobe was in 2013 before tearing his Achilles because he had to play 38mpg to drag Gasol/Howard's sorry asses into the playoffs. (and if it weren't for that Achilles, Kobe would've still been a ~25ppg scorer the next year).
He has to win 2 *just to get to 4-4 aka .500* in the next 3-4 years while he's still the Cavs' best player, so this season and 3 more.
You see the Cavs beating GSW/Spurs this year? Or even after Duncan retires, a Spurs team that doesn't need to rebuild because it already signed Kawhi & Aldridge?
Or OKC this year, or next year too if KD stays? Or shit, even the Clippers if they can finally get their shit together and win under Doc/CP3?
|
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:34 PM Author: Very tactful public bath potus Yes I think the cavs will win it all this year and id put a lbj-love-Irving trifecta against any 3 on an nba team today. It is an enormous disadvantage to play a Finals with two of your big three sitting the bench. Based on lebrons performance this past finals I think he realizes how little time he actually has left.
But Who knows you sound like you know more about nba than me. Looking forward to this Xmas day matchup. |
|
Date: December 27th, 2015 8:01 AM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Had Love & a Kyrie with no signs of rust. GSW missed a lot of easy shots. So did LeBron.
GSW won. Care to reconsider? |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 7:51 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29429070) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 8:02 PM Author: yapping gas station Kids these days now want to "be like steph" instead of lebron. Because really, how do you "be like lebron"? He's just a freakish athlete that uses his freakish frame to bulldoze his way into the lane in the post-hand check era. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29429143) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 8:59 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping CR. Same with people wanting to "be like Mike," or yelling "Kobe" as they faded away.
Another reason Kobe has more widespread appeal than LeBron that'll last into his legacy. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 2:05 PM Author: effete parlor What is this nonsense? LeBron is a better rebounder, passer, and ball handler than Kobe ever was. Not to mention the more versatile defender, and about equal as a 3 point shooter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29440400) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:12 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Wilt was better in all those things than Russell & Kareem, but no one would fault you for saying Kareem > Wilt.
B/c history rewards [5-2 in the Finals + countless oncourt memories] over [2-4 in the Finals, better stats because Kobe wasn't played 35mpg before 2000, and the most memorable moment being "The Decision"] |
|
Date: December 21st, 2015 9:05 PM Author: shimmering provocative dilemma newt counterpoint: Kobe is a dickhead with shit marketing (ie not his airness) and nobody ever liked him or will want to remember him three seconds after he's out the door, he'd need to be twice as good as lebron to secure the legacy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29429556) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 1:56 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Yet Kobe still rakes in about the same endorsement $ as LeBron if not more, and people will remember the games they saw and will see on ESPN Classics, not some locker room "behind the scenes" dish in "TheBleacherReport." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29440339) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 5:33 PM Author: irradiated forum blood rage you never have any idea what you are talking about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441949) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:19 PM Author: slippery galvanic becky LOLno (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29702858) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:22 PM Author: cream sanctuary corn cake Kobe is loved in LA bro. And he has tons of fans across the nation, although tons of haters as well. Unlike Lebron, he is a real person with strenghts and flaws, not a robotic clown. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29702878) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:30 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping He speaks Italian (didn't speak English until age 13 or something). His SAT scores probably would've qualified him for Duke/Stanford, even without AA (but with basketball). He took/takes classes at UCLA. He talks like you would expect him to, considering his childhood in Italy/Main Line Philly. Not like LeBron/Jay-Z, who think they're modern Rockefellers by wearing a suit and rimmed glasses. He's still a Catholicmo.
His production is almost all skill instead of outjumping/running/muscling others.
LeBron? ljl
|
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:28 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Also, remember LeBron can't go back on HGH, because this is the first year the NBA actually started testing 4x/year randomly for it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441134) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 11:35 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29444198) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:12 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29702772) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:39 PM Author: Mustard Hairy Legs Indian Lodge LeBron long ago surpassed Kobe by any rational metric. Only the "but but but RIIIINGZZZZ" shit persists and I don't bother engaging with people who see it as a defining variable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441219) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:51 PM Author: Fantasy-prone den degenerate Kareem was better than Jordan by any rational metric. Wonder how that worked out for him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441315) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 4:08 PM Author: Mustard Hairy Legs Indian Lodge Even most devotees of analytics prefer Jordan (even though I love Kareem and put him at #3 all time). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441381) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 5:26 PM Author: trip sweet tailpipe center No. LeBron's finals stats aren't impressive, although he was very impressive last year. How do you let Dirk beat your super team in the finals? SMH. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441917) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 6:55 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping "Advanced metrics" is something neckbeards see on paper or on a screen. "Ringz" count is something any fool can find on Wikipedia, so that's not something I'm putting all the stock in.
I'm going by what devoted fans see on TV, or in arenas. And Kobe gave them plenty. LeBron gave them "the Decision," (and, to show you that's not meant to be a zinger, I'm acknowledging that his 48 vs Detroit Game 5 in 2007 and 45 vs BOS Game 6 in 2012 were truly great performances). And maybe that 3 pointer he hit vs the Magic in 09.
And note your dismissal of Ringz, which you don't see as a "rational metric," is itself a conscious choice in favor of "advanced analytics."
Note that no one's arguing Derek Fisher, who won all the rings Kobe won, > LeBron. But when you're debating T20 players, it matters a lot. Kobe is maybe too polarizing. But note that if someone ranked Duncan/Shaq/Bird/Magic ahead of LeBron, you wouldn't say "But LeBron > them" on "advanced analytics" as a counter. |
|
Date: December 27th, 2015 8:03 AM Author: Heady startled lay gaping lol advanced metrics (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29460972) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 5:00 PM Author: Impertinent Razzmatazz Kitchen Chris Paul was 20x more deserving of Kobe's only MVP.
Advanced stats have confirmed what smart fans have always sensed intuitively: he's an overrated chucker with an enormous fan base of casual basketball fans. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 7:01 PM Author: brass fear-inspiring puppy not an nbamo, not a lebron fan, but kobe was not the best player on his own team during his peak. he was rarely the best player in the league. lebron has been the best player on every team he's been on, and has been the best player in the league, what? at least 7 or 8 years?
it's lebron in a walk bro. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2015 7:53 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping Peak Kobe was probably 2003-2009/10. He overtook Shaq in 2003 and was the Lakers' best player until the Achilles in 2013.
He was also the best player in the league until 2010, maybe 2009, when LeBron overtook him.
But please, tell us about how it was Pau Gasol who beat Rondo/Ray Ray/Pierce/KG in the Finals.
|
|
Date: December 27th, 2015 8:36 AM Author: Fantasy-prone den degenerate (guy who doesn't watch basketball) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29460997) |
|
Date: December 27th, 2015 8:25 AM Author: Painfully Honest University LeBron has already passed Kobe. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29460984) |
|
Date: December 27th, 2015 8:36 AM Author: Fantasy-prone den degenerate in finals losses? true. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29460998) |
|
Date: December 27th, 2015 12:31 PM Author: Tan Marvelous Brethren (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29461777) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:22 PM Author: slippery galvanic becky (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29702877) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:48 PM Author: exhilarant institution kobe is complete garbage. low percentage trash volume scorer. steph curry changed everything. remember when andy roddick was considered a great player and then federer came along? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29703162) |
|
Date: January 28th, 2016 9:50 PM Author: cordovan zombie-like whorehouse persian Both will be forgotten in 25 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29703172) |
|
Date: February 5th, 2016 2:30 PM Author: Heady startled lay gaping You? Forgotten already (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29759072) |