Will LeBron ever catch Kobe's legacy?
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Date: December 21st, 2015 6:33 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
1. Kobe has the better legacy at this point. The only question is whether LBJ will catch him in the 3-4 years he has left as a top-flight player (unless he resumes using HGH). He'll have to win TWO finals in his remaining years just to get to .500 (he's 2-4, ljl). And good luck beating GSW/Spurs maybe even the Clippers/OKC in the Finals, unless something major happens like KD leaving OKC.
Before anyone starts with "but but but, 4-time MVP! advanced stats!," consider that:
2. For the years 2001-2004, Kobe and Shaq essentially prevented each other from winning MVP, because they both averaged 28+ (dipped in 2004 because the team had Payton & Malone).
3. Kobe was undisputedly the best player in the league in 2006, and arguably from the 2002-03 season to the 08-09 season.
4. In 03, Kobe and Shaq nullified each other. Tim Duncan won, is obviously an all-time great. 04: KG definitely deserved it. 05: A bit controversial, but Nash improved the Suns by something like 33 wins. 06: Even more controversial in Nash > Kobe.
5. Kobe's 5-2 in the Finals, and before anyone says "but but but Shaq," never forget that LBJ got flatout demolished in the Finals TWICE when he Wade AND Bosh.
6. And in terms of lasting memories, Kobe has supplied countless ones. 2000 vs Blazers, Finals vs Pacers. The whole 01 and 02 playoffs.
A. 2003: When he had 5 dunks that could each qualify as dunk of the year. Scored 40+ in 9 straight games (only Wilt & MJ).
B. 2004: Flew back and forth between CO and games. Hit 2 impossible 3s in the last game of the season vs Portland to pry the division title away from the Kings. Hit another 3 that was responsible for the Lakers' only Finals win in game 2.
C. 06: 81, outscored Mavs 62-61 in 3 Qrtrs, sat out 4th. 4 straight 45+. Carried fuckin' Smush and Kwame to a 3-1 lead over MVP Nash's Suns, again hit 2 clutch shots in game 4 to give them that 3-1 lead. 50 in gm6, but it wasn't enough.
D. 07: 4 straight 50+ (only Wilt); 2 of them were 60+
E. 08: MVP. Flatout demolished the defending champ Spurs 4-1 to get to the Finals. Odom and Gasol did jack shit that series. His other 2 starters were fucking DFish and Vlad Radmonovic. Vs a GOAT Celtics team: Rondo, Ray Ray, Pierce, KG (the last 3 were all still in their prime).
F. 09-10: Hit more game winners than you can count. Destroyed the Magic in the 09 Finals 4-1, averaging 33. Squeezed a tough one out vs the same Celts.
G. '13: 38mpg at age 34. First, at the All-Star game, he straightup embarrassed LeBron (when it got competitive). Went on a rampage in March to get the Lakers into the playoffs. When he tore his Achilles, he still walked to the line to sink his 2 free throws as the Lakers won by 2.
H. If it weren't for the Achilles, Kobe would've had 2 more years of 25ppg+ in him. And all throughout, not just this year, road arenas loved Kobe even if they hated the Lakers and wanted them to lose. All road arenas HATE LeBron.
7. LBJ's "memories"? 48 vs Pistons in 2007 (which was objectively great). Game-winning 3 vs the Magic in 09 (but still lost the series). Played like shit vs the Celts in '10. Flat-out choked vs Mavs in '11. Airballed a 3, and bricked another 3 in Game6 of the Finals vs the Spurs and would have lost the series right there if he didn't have the GOAT 3pt shooter (Ray Ray) bail him out. '14, '15? ljl.
Go ahead, just try to think of lasting LeBron memories. He has fewer, and the ones he does have (besides 48 vs Pistons) are dim compared to any of Kobe's.
8. Kobe: 20yrs with LAL. LeBron: Let me take my talents to SoBe for a few years, then I'll come back to CLE when my prime is declining so that I can team up with 2 younger AllStars than Wade & Bosh.
9. And the most devastating comparison? https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg
LeBron camp, retorts?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428490) |
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Date: December 21st, 2015 7:00 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
Bro, Kobe has been making LeBron look like an ass clown long before that 1 quarter in the 2013 All Star Game.
Remember in 2007, in the Team USA scrimmage before the Olympics, Kobe straight iced LeBron's team and then defended LeBron into a potential gamewinner...that hit nothing but backboard?
If you watch this 2min video (I linked to a specific time in the 4th Quarter of the 07 Team USA scrimmage, probably the most competitive game ever between Kobe and LeBron). Kobe straight ass-gaped LeBron on like 10 consecutive possessions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpoBaEePpdc&t=5m35s
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428650) |
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Date: December 21st, 2015 7:22 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
he has ~3 years left where you can still argue that he's the #1 player in the league, but it's evident he's declining since peaking in ~12, '13.
This year, can the Cavs beat GSW/Spurs, or even LAC/OKC in a 7 game series? (if LAC can finally get their shit together).
Next year, KD may move. But if he doesn't, he and Westbrook are hitting their strides, while LBJ is declining.
How will he catch Kobe?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428827) |
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Date: December 21st, 2015 7:13 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
Box score shitlennials are just as bad as "advanced stats" shills. Basketball is at bottom a game played and WATCHED, not analyzed by neckbeards on reddit or ESPN or whatever.
You're just saying LBJ will def be top 10, but you have no idea how crowded it is up there. Who is he going to edge out, out of this group (not necessarily in rank order, just whoever comes to mind first).
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Bird (3 consecutive MVPs, the first great 3pt shooter, 3 for 5 in the Finals)
5. Kareem
6. Kobe
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Bill Russell
10. I'd say Hakeem
A. most graceful big man ever.
B. HOU picked him #1 over MJ @ #3, and it's a testament to how great Hakeen was that no one ever doubted Hakeem going #1, even 10 20 years later.
C. 2x DPOY (#1 all-time in blocks, but def top 3 with Wilt/Russell, top 10 all time in STEALS)
D. 94 MVP, 94 & 95 Finals MVP (esp in 95, when he straightup clowned MVP D-Robinson and then swept Shaq in the Finals even though Shaq had Penny/Horace Grant, and Hakeem had a washed up Drexler, Kenny Jet Smith, and...Otis Thorpe)
E. Posted a Quadruple Double
Again, that was in no particular order.
Jerry West, Oscar Robertson could be up there too.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29428752)
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Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:18 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
Hakeem went 2 for 3 in the Finals, lost in 86 to Bird during Bird's 3rd consecutive MVP year. As many Final MVPs as LeBron, 3 fewer losses. And Hakeem didn't play against joke competition: https://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg
And points A-E about Hakeem above. Shit, even Shaq would say Hakeem > LeBron, and Shaq played with LeBron and doesn't like admitting other big men were on his level.
But, even if he beats out Hakeem, you'd still agree that he's still quite a bit behind Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq? And J-West/Oscar Robertson, assuming comparability across eras (as we must for an "all-time" list), are debatable vs LeBron but not vs Kobe/Duncan/Shaq?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441034) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2015 2:16 PM Author: naked orchid parlour
Within 6 years, Lebron will get 2-3 more titles, and he will surpass:
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Shaq
Hakeem
Bird
And he will have tied Magic
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29440489) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2015 3:25 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
He's 31 this year. He'll already exiting his prime and will fall even more steeply @ ~34-35 (but still very good). Sort of like how Kobe was in 2013 before tearing his Achilles because he had to play 38mpg to drag Gasol/Howard's sorry asses into the playoffs.
(and if it weren't for that Achilles, Kobe would've still been a ~25ppg scorer the next year).
He has to win 2 *just to get to 4-4 aka .500* in the next 3-4 years while he's still the Cavs' best player, so this season and 3 more.
You see the Cavs beating GSW/Spurs this year? Or even after Duncan retires, a Spurs team that doesn't need to rebuild because it already signed Kawhi & Aldridge?
Or OKC this year, or next year too if KD stays?
Or shit, even the Clippers if they can finally get their shit together and win under Doc/CP3?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441102)
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Date: January 28th, 2016 9:30 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
He speaks Italian (didn't speak English until age 13 or something).
His SAT scores probably would've qualified him for Duke/Stanford, even without AA (but with basketball).
He took/takes classes at UCLA.
He talks like you would expect him to, considering his childhood in Italy/Main Line Philly. Not like LeBron/Jay-Z, who think they're modern Rockefellers by wearing a suit and rimmed glasses.
He's still a Catholicmo.
His production is almost all skill instead of outjumping/running/muscling others.
LeBron? ljl
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29702961)
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Date: December 23rd, 2015 6:55 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
"Advanced metrics" is something neckbeards see on paper or on a screen. "Ringz" count is something any fool can find on Wikipedia, so that's not something I'm putting all the stock in.
I'm going by what devoted fans see on TV, or in arenas. And Kobe gave them plenty. LeBron gave them "the Decision," (and, to show you that's not meant to be a zinger, I'm acknowledging that his 48 vs Detroit Game 5 in 2007 and 45 vs BOS Game 6 in 2012 were truly great performances). And maybe that 3 pointer he hit vs the Magic in 09.
And note your dismissal of Ringz, which you don't see as a "rational metric," is itself a conscious choice in favor of "advanced analytics."
Note that no one's arguing Derek Fisher, who won all the rings Kobe won, > LeBron. But when you're debating T20 players, it matters a lot. Kobe is maybe too polarizing. But note that if someone ranked Duncan/Shaq/Bird/Magic ahead of LeBron, you wouldn't say "But LeBron > them" on "advanced analytics" as a counter.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29442379) |
Date: December 23rd, 2015 5:00 PM Author: Ocher metal travel guidebook
Chris Paul was 20x more deserving of Kobe's only MVP.
Advanced stats have confirmed what smart fans have always sensed intuitively: he's an overrated chucker with an enormous fan base of casual basketball fans.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29441774) |
Date: December 23rd, 2015 7:01 PM Author: big point athletic conference
not an nbamo, not a lebron fan, but kobe was not the best player on his own team during his peak. he was rarely the best player in the league. lebron has been the best player on every team he's been on, and has been the best player in the league, what? at least 7 or 8 years?
it's lebron in a walk bro.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29442408) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2015 7:53 PM Author: fuchsia crawly sound barrier base
Peak Kobe was probably 2003-2009/10. He overtook Shaq in 2003 and was the Lakers' best player until the Achilles in 2013.
He was also the best player in the league until 2010, maybe 2009, when LeBron overtook him.
But please, tell us about how it was Pau Gasol who beat Rondo/Ray Ray/Pierce/KG in the Finals.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3076317&forum_id=2#29442777)
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