Why dont you guys ever try honestly to articulate the libtard position just as a
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:10 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
an exercise in understanding the enemy better. And just honestly and in good faith do so, without making caricatures. Then respond to THAT. It would make for more substantive poasting, I suspect.
Say the libtards position without hyperbole, and then respond to it. And don't go to some extreme position either. Just take the basic libtard position on a subject and state it clearly, along with some commentary on the reasoning behind the position, sympathetic to libtard viewpoint, and then respond to that. It would be a lot more HONEST than what you guys spend most of your waking hours doing, which is exerting yourself into a froth over a pretend fantasy Goldstein in a Two Minutes Hate scenario.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045258) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:14 PM Author: godawful affirmative action mood
You guys want open borders with a gigantic welfare state
That is an honest articulation of Dem policy
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045276) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:18 PM Author: godawful affirmative action mood
How about your last presidential candidate?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/8/hillary-clinton-dreams-open-borders-leaked-speech-/
By Ben Wolfgang - The Washington Times - Saturday, October 8, 2016
Hillary Clinton in 2013 said she dreams of a “common market with open trade and open borders,” saying that economic opportunity in the U.S. would grow as a result.
Her comments to Latin American bankers were revealed late Friday by WikiLeaks, which appears to have obtained excerpts of some of Mrs. Clinton’s paid speeches in the days following her tenure at the State Department. The excerpts were found in Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s emails, and while Mr. Podesta refused to verify the documents, he also did not deny their authenticity.
In addition to downplaying banks’ role in the 2008 economic collapse, admitting she’s out of touch with the middle class and conceding she has “both a public and a private position” on Wall Street reform, Mrs. Clinton also bluntly said she believes open borders would benefit the entire Western hemisphere.
“My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the Hemisphere,” she said in the May 2013 speech to the Brazilian bank Banco Itau.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045297) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:31 PM Author: godawful affirmative action mood
Libtard position: open borders and strong welfare
Rebuttal: you cannot have an entire hemisphere flooding your country while providing sufficient levels of welfare to them. No matter if it is now or in the utopian future
xoxo
hth
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045401) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:48 PM Author: Aqua Pungent Lettuce Antidepressant Drug
Since when are libs against something because of cost or "administrative" hassles? If that's the case I'm sure the liberal platform will also include a top to bottom review and full-scale reform of Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security and Welfare.
You're the worst kind of shitbag pseudo-intellectual blowhard.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045568)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:03 PM Author: Cerise bearded crotch weed whacker
There are some moderate democrats, yes. Those aren't the ones we are scared of.
And I'm sure your qualifier last sentence basically means it's meaningless.
Some republicans have no issue with abortion as long as it's fair to the unborn child!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045676) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:59 PM Author: onyx kitty cat people who are hurt
can you explain why the Dems needed to be induced to fund border enforcement by giving current law breakers a pathway to citizenship?
if they believe in border enforcement, why not just pass border enforcement?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046231)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:13 PM Author: onyx kitty cat people who are hurt
I can understand the strategic positioning prior to the bill.
But after the compromise bill was shut down, essentially the Dems' bluff was called.
At that point, if the Dems actually cared about border enforcement, why wouldn't they agree to fund border enforcement as a standalone bill?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046346) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:27 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
But why would they do that?
That's not how negotiation works little bro.
We do that all day every day. they want it, you want it too but they REALLY need it to get re-elected, so you give it to them but make sure to attach other items you want or need.
NOW If they don't like that, then you push it out to crisis point. Query whether and in that context they did the right thing in this inside baseball game of which we can only speculate ... but the house hasn't fallen down and I suspect that additional curatives and preventives got pumped up in the meantime.
If you are an atty, don't feign ignorance of how this sort of thing works.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046476) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:38 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
so see below.
just because something isn't top of the list doesn't mean its not high on the list.
And Latham has a point too, which is if it was so important (besides being red meat to conturd constituents) then why wouldn't the GOP make something workable, embarrass the dems on that point? It's almost like the whole thing was, on one level or another, bullshit that fills the day.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046576) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:43 PM Author: onyx kitty cat people who are hurt
see my response below to Latham.
Also, I don't know what you mean by "workable". The original bill sans pathway to citizenship sounds workable and reasonable, no legit downside to anyone except for nominal cost of enforcement.
If by "workable" you mean, "acceptable to Dems", that's just begging this whole question.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046622) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 4:09 PM Author: onyx kitty cat people who are hurt
Pathway to citizenship is arguably not reasonable for the following reasons:
(1) in the long term, it encourages more illegal immigration if migrants think that successfully crossing the border, or overstaying their visa, will eventually result in legal status and/or citizenship.
(2) it the short term, even if you can solve for border protection and visa overstays, it encourages more people to illegally cross/overstay before the final compromise bill with the protections are put in place, because you won't be able to distinguish between migrants who came in before whatever deadline you put in the bill and who came after.
(3) it is fundamentally immoral and unfair to any aspiring immigrant to the US who did not illegal cross or overstay their visas.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046887) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:45 PM Author: onyx kitty cat people who are hurt
Life is too complicated is a hand wave to deflect from a hard question you can't adequately answer, and I suspect you realize that.
Calling someone "little fella" and "little breh" is insulting and patronizing.
Consequently, I'm going to stop engaging with you in good faith now.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046639) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:34 PM Author: onyx kitty cat people who are hurt
"And why didn't the GOP work on a bill with just e-verify? What about increased funding for the IRS and the Dept of Labor to go after employers who cheat the system with black market labor? "
The conservative base would have been for that, especially the Anne Coulter crowd. I don't know if the GOP lawmakers would have tried to pass that but thought it was pointless given Dem opposition, or if they were too beholden to chamber of commerce groups.
However, I don't think you have actual evidence either way, so it's unjustified for you to impute bad motive in this case.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046550) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:08 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
when did he not enforce laws on the books "because that's not who we are."
what unique aspects of the case was such that he exercised HIS OWN FUCKING LAW ON THE BOOKS to enforce selectively BECAUSE HE CAN DO THAT BECAUSE HIS DISCRETION IN SO DOING IS A FUCKING LAW ON THE BOOKS.
That is, executive discretion is part of the "law on the books" you seem to enjoy saying.
But give me the examples of which you are so confident.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045725) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:07 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
"Revulsion at trumps immigration plan can be reasonably based on its over and under inclusiveness"
sure, i agree. however, IME at a t10, and i'm sure IYE in your NYC/v10/etc circles, i never heard anyone agree for *any* restrictions on immigration. the question was always how we could get more, especially from "disadvantaged" countries.
"approaching open borders asymptotically" seems like a good way of describing this, because while not open borders as such, it's a monotonic decrease in restrictions where the epsilon btw current state of affairs and actual open borders is forever diminishing. i guess you could argue that the limit towards which it tends is some number > 0, but that's kinda breaking a butterfly upon a wheel
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046288) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:26 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
"Well there is a system of screening in place that people already accept as valid so that woyld tend to reduce the discussion about the need for "any" restrictions"
the system currently in place commands only grudging and uncommitted support among implementing bureaucracies, municipal administrations in sanctuary cities, prestige journalism, universities, etc. i agree that most libs would say that they support some restrictions on immigration. however, they say this while continuing to support policies and politicians that act as a one-way ratchet to increase at least some kinds of immigration. it's this ratchet affect that is the point of "asymptotic".
like a lot of systems, and of course i'm not excepting shitcon ones, our de facto immigration system is an emergent system that only vaguely resembles the de jure one -- as it actually exists, it arises from the interaction among land routes, human trafficking, tolerated practices, corruption, the will to enforce, out-of-touch boomer sentiment, corporations' imperatives to exploit labor, etc. the % of libs who would say "i am for open borders" must of course be tiny, but that's not what shitcons are complaining about.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046459) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:49 PM Author: Frisky Tan Resort Hissy Fit
I don't agree that it's what shit cons are complaining about. See the original post in this chain, extrapolating a comment which I assume is about energy [not enough info and I checked Wikileaks] to people and attributing it to a party as a mainstream idea.
You and I agree that our immigration system is largely based on traffic routes. I also agree with your insinuation that this can and will be exploited but I find the liberal position on escaping war zones (or sending your children alone to escape them) fully sympathetic.
I'm not sure whether posters on this board are concerned more about Muslim terrorists entering the country or welfare Mexicans.
Our conversations about immigration should not be confused with our asylum system
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046700) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:59 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
"attributing it to a party as a mainstream idea"
well, i'm willing to attribute ever-decreasing restrictions on immigration to the democratic party as a mainstream idea. i agree that we won't end up with open borders, but we'll end up with de facto open borders for the kinds of people that mainstream democrats don't object to admitting.
"I'm not sure whether posters on this board are concerned more about Muslim terrorists entering the country or welfare Mexicans."
i mean, i've gone through the immigration system recently. it's very restrictive if you are a MC+ person who pays taxes. it was really hard to get a green card in the first place. however, it seems to be very easy to get in either as a hardship case or via chain migration. at my citizenship ceremony, it was mostly ppl from third world countries who clearly did not go through the same system i did.
"Our conversations about immigration should not be confused with our asylum system"
both systems are serving as levers to rapidly change the nation's demographics. this is not exactly deliberate on the part of libs, but they're hardly upset about it. is it surprising to you that this offends the heritage population?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046818) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 4:47 PM Author: adulterous boistinker legal warrant
Chain is a much longer waitlist especially for "oversubscribed" nations of origin.
Not sure what you mean by hardship, but political asylum is a crapshoot - introducing an element of chance that MC+ professional immigrants choose not to contend with (but asylum seekers have no choice but to content with) .
Agree that UMC professionals have to jump through TOO MANY hoops and wait way too long to get in. But now that you're here, you can pull in your own chain of immigrants too!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047193) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 4:54 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
"Not sure what you mean by hardship, but political asylum is a crapshoot - introducing an element of chance that MC+ professional immigrants choose not to contend with (but asylum seekers have no choice but to content with)."
my hearing was 50% people from three specific third-world countries. seems unlikely that group was solely asylees. i guess both liberals and conservatives can agree this is good, liberals because they are per se diverse and conservatives because they'll make good minimum wage labor till they're blown out in the wrists, back and knees by age 50, at which point they can be tossed on the scrap heap of whatever's left of the disability and retirement system.
i don't want to pull a chain. i want to be american, not live in a ghetto, a colony or an enclave.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047240) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:52 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
the brits allowed pakistani rape gangs to develop in, among other cities, rotherham, rochdale, oxford, telford, bristol, aylesbury, peterborough, and newcastle. fathers were jailed for attempting to intervene and investigations were suppressed out of fear of seeming racist.
i am not accusing you of supporting pakistani rape gangs, of course. i'm saying that while, in theory, the lib position is that "people should be able to exercise their religion peaceably without discrimination", in practice, this winds up providing cover for all kinds of terrifying shit.
libs are perfectly capable of understanding this point when it cuts the other way. for example, a traditionalist might argue that a father should have some kind of legal powers of "headship" for a family. after all, he is responsible for his kids' support and for their behavior if they get out of line. libs would then, quite reasonably, point out that any such powers would benefit abusers and domestic tyrants.
"peaceful exercise of religion" is a fraught subject when the religion at issue tends to serve as a flashpoint for ethnic conflict. note that few brits are MAF anymore about sikhs or hindus. we don't have the same conversations about muslims that we do about buddhists, and it's either dishonest or foolish to pretend that irrational animus against muslims is the only reason way.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046748) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 4:54 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
Yes but the place to start is in the libtard platform point.
Starting from there, you will have differences of opinion as to scope of problem, what options to curtail risk (perceived or nonexistent), and relative costs of those risks.
The problem that conturds have, as I respectfully see it, is you don't show your homework. First, let's agree in principle that its wrong to fuck with someone's religion or in principle wrong to discriminate against people on the basis of their belief. So long as we are all working from the same set of foundational beleifs, we can move forward. Conturds too often forget the foundational beliefs when it comes to talking aout people who are different from us, and its not to say that conturds don't have the same foundational belif, but because you skip right past that it makes it harder for libtards to trust anything else that comes outta yo mouth.
So agree on the basic platforms, and then discuss accordingly. and it may be that you don't value those sorts of fairness principles, in which case we have a real difference of opinion.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047239) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 5:03 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
"Starting from there, you will have differences of opinion as to scope of problem, what options to curtail risk (perceived or nonexistent), and relative costs of those risks."
lol linda sarsour was a top leader of the women's march
"So agree on the basic platforms, and then discuss accordingly."
OK. i agree that we have to respect religious freedom. can i say that britain has a pakistani rape gang problem now? not in the UK. ppl get fired for saying stuff like that there. that's why it was covered up for so long.
again, libs don't have a hard time understanding this when it cuts the other way. libs have a very easy time understanding that roman catholic priests were able to use prestige and professional networks to avoid the consequences of abusing kids. but when the issue is islamic immigration and social integration, speech is chilled to such an extent that nuanced views (including those of moderate libs) don't get aired.
xo shitconnery is partially performative, a way of acting out in response to thuggishly chilled public speech. it's growing less performative and more sincere as ppl get more and more frustrated at shitlib inability to hear "rape gangs are bad" without screaming racism and trying to get ppl doxed and fired.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047301) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:17 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
shitcons pass ideological Turing tests at much higher rates, so I'm afraid that SCIENCE! says you are wrong
for one concrete bort-related example, Christian Nation is basically a gigantic failed ideological Turing test
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045294) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:17 PM Author: Mint Deer Antler
Well, except for all the reviews suggesting otherwise:
"Rich's Christian Nation is more than a 'what if'- as the 'theocratic program' unfolds, our usual 'So what?' regarding fundamentalism of any variety becomes the real danger. Pay attention. What's at stake is the heart and soul of American democracy." -James Kowalski, dean of the Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine. Naturally, that's an Episcopal Church.
"This riveting novel should join Sinclar Lewis's It Can't Happen Here as an American classic... a chain letter for liberty." -Nadine Strosser, former ACLU president
"Mr. Rich's narrative brings the issues of religion and politics in American into relational and personal view. His is a compelling and timely parable for our time." -Rev. Robert Allan Hill, professor of New Testament theology at Boston University
“Brilliant 1984-style dystopian novel of a Christian theocracy under President Palin and her successor . . . read Fred Rich’s Christian Nation and learn fear.”
—-Richard Dawkins, November 2014 [Somebody was updating this over a year after the book came out]
“Frederic C. Rich’s book, Christian Nation: A Novel is a thought-provoking futuristic look at what the evangelicals and their Republican Party enablers might envision for America’s future.”
—-D. Leslie Schreiber of Bacon’s Rebellion
“[W]ell written and persuasive . . . It does achieve its intended purpose by demonstrating how a theocratic government could arise in this country. It has an imaginative plot of a seriously conspiratorial nature. For those who might enjoy a work that entwines political, legal and religious themes, “Christian Nation” is a worthwhile read.”
—-Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045804) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:24 PM Author: Mint Deer Antler
Only two of those are really publications. The rest are just notable left-wingers (liberal religious leaders, ex-ACLU head, Dawkins) talking about how spooky and plausible Rich's take was, when anybody who actually is a conservative religious person can see on face how ridiculous it is.
There's also the Amazon reviews, which are quite positive:
https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Nation-Frederic-C-Rich/dp/0393240118
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045897) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:19 PM Author: Mint Deer Antler
Why should I pretend it didn't happen just because you deleted it? You didn't misspeak and you meant every word of it. It's certainly worth bringing up when you try to pose as some above-it-all moderate. I said it was ridiculous to claim the president was deliberately comforting Nazis or Klansmen, because he has no record of doing that and there was zero gain in doing so, and in response you just said I supported the Nazis and Klansmen,. It's a ridiculous claim, and a severe non sequitur at best (I claim Trump doesn't support Nazis because...I support Nazis?) but it's also an excellent example in itself of the left not understanding their opponents, which is what this subthread is about.
"your cherry-picked reviews doesn't really say anythin about how the leftists that read feel as a group"
And the hundred-plus Amazon reviews don't? How about the 191 Goodreads reviews and 600+ ratings, where a large proportion of negative reviews appear to be from conservatives ridiculing it:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16241153-christian-nation
I haven't "cherry-picked" anything. I'm just linking every review I can find, and they're overwhelmingly positive. Want more?
https://thehumanist.com/magazine/march-april-2014/arts_entertainment/christian-nation
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/11/23/1257925/--Christian-Nation-A-review
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2016/07/book-review--christian-nation-by-frederic-c-rich
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/creativeatheist/2013/09/a-christian-nation-is-only-a-novel-for-now/
Well, here's a skeptical review from the Plain Dealer, mostly focused on its lack of strong literary merit. I guess that proves not everybody loves it:
http://www.cleveland.com/books/index.ssf/2013/07/post_59.html
Also weird you contrast it with Atlas Shrugged, a book that has many fans but is in fact routinely bashed on the right for all sorts of reasons. Certainly this bort has ridiculed Rand plenty.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046398)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:40 PM Author: Dashing gold national
Let me reiterate this one more time, as clearly as I can: most people (on the left and in general) have never heard of that silly book and to claim it somehow informs the left's worldview is preposterous.
Trumps comments were designed to keep his"alt-right" base in the fold, and likely came from Bannon himself. Hardly "zero gain." Plenty of other people have already written about this. Condemn Trump for them, or not, I don't really care at this point, but it's obvious that's what he was doing. I didn't say you should pretend anything didn't happen. I acknowledged using the wrong words and said I didn't want to start an argument with you about it, because you generally seemed like a decent guy. Apparently, you disagree on that last point. (Edit: the point about not having an argument about it)
As for being a centrist, I would say I am one, which by xoxo standards is probably viewed as somewhere between the Shining Path and Emma Goldman.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046587) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 4:38 PM Author: Mint Deer Antler
"Let me reiterate this one more time, as clearly as I can: most people (on the left and in general) have never heard of that silly book and to claim it somehow informs the left's worldview is preposterous."
This subthread isn't about what books "inform" the left's worldview. Go back up to the starting comment by swordmo; it's about the left being bad at Ideological Turing Tests (i.e. they don't understand how conservatives think). He just cited Christian Nation as an example of libs being bad at this. You claimed Christian Nation was non-representative, so I cited the hundreds of positive reviews it has received, including from prominent leftists, and the relative paucity of negative reviews. This suggests Rich's utter failure to understand conservatives is hardly limited to himself, and could be more general.
"Trumps comments were designed to keep his"alt-right" base in the fold, and likely came from Bannon himself."
Another example of the same phenomenon. Pretty much everything about Trump welcoming Nazis into the fold is based on media hysterics that either 1. Characterize people as Nazis regardless of their actual views (see Hillary's PSA on Pepe the Frog), or 2. Ridiculously stretch whatever Trump was actually saying. The absurd effort to tie Trump to David Duke a year ago was a signal example. Trump has never supported David Duke and has never shown any sign of backing Duke's worldview, but the media used some forced effort at a disavowal (which Trump resisted because he almost always resists this sort of media boxing-in) to claim he was a hidden Klansmen.
Just because you actually buy into the media's histrionics and repeat them yourself doesn't mean they're accurate. And if you think my disagreement puts me literally in league with Nazis and Klansmen, then, well, you're an idiot.
"I didn't say you should pretend anything didn't happen. I acknowledged using the wrong words and said I didn't want to start an argument with you about it, because you generally seemed like a decent guy."
How are they the wrong words, if they represent what you genuinely believe? You've never suggested you misspoke or went too far. You've only said you didn't want to start a fight. I believe you, but it doesn't matter. The fact is, you did start one, and you started it by saying something so ridiculous I'm not going to let it lie. If you don't like that...well, tough.
"As for being a centrist, I would say I am one, which by xoxo standards is probably viewed as somewhere between the Shining Path and Emma Goldman."
I wasn't denying you were a centrist, which you may be (though I don't think the term is useful; I come out as centrist on plenty of political surveys). I was criticizing what I believe is your effort to use self-proclaimed centrism as a weapon that demonstrates how you are more reasonable, more neutral, or more correct, etc. For instance, you did that while trying to tie me to Nazis. It's not convincing and in many ways is rather repellent. I've met enough "D.C. moderates" to have developed a healthy distaste for them.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047131) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 5:20 PM Author: Dashing gold national
You started this by responding to my comment: "Christian Nation was one BIGLAW partners silly novel, it's not representative of the liberal outlook anymore than the Turner diaries represents the republican POV". That was the goal poast, which you seem intent on moving. I don't really have the energy to continue this back and forth on my phone.
As for the alt-right and trump's embrace of them, I'm not buying into any hysterics. Go read the Spencer's manifesto on Altright.com if you're confused about what they stand for (and remember that Bannon has explicitly affiliated himself with the "alt-right"). Trump wants these people in his corner, though he probably does regret being a bit too explicit about it this time.
Calling me an idiot was a nice touch. A "healthy distaste" for moderates indeed.
EDIT: They were the wrong words because refusing to condemn Trumps support of the alt right isn't the same as making common cause with them, that's what Trump was doing by explicitly pandering for their support , you were merely refusing to say it was wrong (or even recognize/agree that it was happening). That's odious and wrong, but not the same as what I said. You seem rather obsessed with this, I have to say. But I don't believe you are intent on allying with the NeoNazis and you have my sincere apology for implying otherwise.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047407)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 8:04 PM Author: Mint Deer Antler
"You started this by responding to my comment: "Christian Nation was one BIGLAW partners silly novel, it's not representative of the liberal outlook anymore than the Turner diaries represents the republican POV". That was the goal poast, which you seem intent on moving. I don't really have the energy to continue this back and forth on my phone."
I've moved nothing. You said it wasn't representative, and compared it to an insane violent fantasy written by the founder of an obscure white nationalist group. I think that comparison is extremely weak, because:
1. This book, unlike TTD, was a mainstream book, with publicity on its behalf, reviews by notable people, etc. I literally found Christian Nation in the slush pile of free books at work.
2. Christian Nation has overwhelmingly positive reviews from those leftists who have read it, with particular praise for how plausible it is (as opposed to praising its writing, which comes in for some criticism).
The point isn't to prove Christian Nation is part of the lib canon. I doubt more than twenty thousand people have ever read it. The point is to show that Christian Nation, and its very positive reception, captures a general trend on the left of not really understanding the right, a trend that is backed up elsewhere (like in Jonathan Haidt's work).
"As for the alt-right and trump's embrace of them, I'm not buying into any hysterics. Go read the Spencer's manifesto on Altright.com if you're confused about what they stand for (and remember that Bannon has explicitly affiliated himself with the "alt-right"). Trump wants these people in his corner, though he probably does regret being a bit too explicit about it this time."
The term alt right was invented by Spencer, and he means it in a pretty Nazi way, but tons of people (including Bannon, in his case) have embraced the term "alt right" under its literal meaning of "alternative right," i.e. right of center but not aligned with the traditional GOP. I've explained this before, and you didn't really respond (http://autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3699961&mc=347&forum_id=2#33981375).
"EDIT: They were the wrong words because refusing to condemn Trumps support of the alt right isn't the same as making common cause with them, that's what Trump was doing by explicitly pandering for their support , you were merely refusing to say it was wrong (or even recognize/agree that it was happening). That's odious and wrong, but not the same as what I said. You seem rather obsessed with this, I have to say. But I don't believe you are intent on allying with the NeoNazis and you have my sincere apology for implying otherwise."
Apology accepted. Glad we could work that out.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34048465) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 10:14 PM Author: Mint Deer Antler
So, your argument for Bannon saying he's a Nazi is that Bannon is too smart to use an innocent label that could be misunderstood, but then he's also dumb enough to just publicly declare his allegiance to genocidal Nazi ideology? Even though this conflicts with other public statements he's made?
You're being incoherent.
And in any case, if you read the interview in question where Bannon uses the term, he pretty explicitly indicates that he views the alt-right as populist nationalism, not a white identity movement:
"Bannon dismisses the alt-right’s appeal to racists as happenstance. “Look, are there some people that are white nationalists that are attracted to some of the philosophies of the alt-right? Maybe,” he says. “Are there some people that are anti-Semitic that are attracted? Maybe. Right? Maybe some people are attracted to the alt-right that are homophobes, right? But that’s just like, there are certain elements of the progressive left and the hard left that attract certain elements.”
.
"He complained about sending his kids to school with "Jews," after all. "
Well, if you fully believe the always-exaggerated statements of child custody disputes I guess.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/yes-steve-bannon-asked-why-a-school-had-many-hanukkah-books.html
Even then, what of it? Jews have a distinct sociocultural vibe, if he didn't want his kids in a school with that vibe, that's fine. It's hardly proof of political anti-Semitism, any more than not wanting your kids to attend a Catholic school is proof of political anti-Catholicism.
"I said that the Christian Nation is as irrelevant to modern liberalism as TTD is to modern conservativism: most people, including those who are involved with those movements, have not read the respective book."
Well, that was an odd point to bring up, considering nobody has ever claimed Christian Nation was widely read, only that it captures how many liberals think. Why did you bring up some unrelated non sequitur point instead of engaging with the actual claim?
Oh, wait, it's because you're ignoring what you yourself said just hours ago. For instance:
"Well I'm not arguing whether it's a good book or not. I never read it but t seemed dumb. I'm arguing as to whether liberals brought into it as a plausible scenario of the what the right would do."
So, no, you clearly argued that there's no evidence liberals thought Christian Nation was plausible or relevant, even though I've posted a mountain of examples you've never bother to engage with (besides claiming you "didn't read those publications". Publications like...being ex-head of the ACLU?)
"What "we" liberals are really concerned about is our moronic president getting us into a major war, not some religious people turning the US into a theocracy."
Well, you certainly haven't offered proof of that. Right now the Left seems far more obsessed with some supposed movement of powerful Nazis that must be stopped by smashing statues and abolishing free speech. Nobody is even talking about North Korea. On Iran, Afghanistan, and Russia, its neocons and the Left who are most militant.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34049249) |
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Date: August 23rd, 2017 7:26 AM Author: Dashing gold national
- Bannon knows the alt right is full of racists and anti semites, and the quote you had doesn't really suggest otherwise. Is Bannon explicit about wanting these people in his movement? Of course not, he gets bad enough press as it is. Does he appeal to these people and want them in the "alt right" you created a platform for? You bet. That is why he used the term "alt-right" --- he knew what it meant, and he wants these people to support his agenda and Trump (and they did, overwhelmingly, in the 2016 election).
- saying "I don't want my kids to goto a school that has Jews" is pretty far cry from saying "I don't want my kid to go a school teaching catholic teachings." Come on. Also, not wanting your kid to go to school with Jews is pretty antisemetic. I'm not even sure Jews have distinct sociocultural vibe in 2017, but even if they did, so what? Not wanting your kids to goto a school that has Jews is just garden variety Antisemitism.
- As for Christian Nation I repeat what I said before: the vast majority of liberals have not read it and it has little relevance to the underpinnings of the movement, even if Richard Dawkins and some lady who just to be I. Charge of the ACLU did give it a favorable blurb. You seem to have trouble with this. Most liberals are more worried about your narcissistic, senile con man of a president doing something reckless and getting us into a war than we are about a theological takeover. If you want "proof" just read the zillions of op eds in the NYT of WaPo on this subject. I don't really care to debate the relevancy of an irrelevant novel any further.
- Lol at "no one talking" about North Korea and the left being the most militants when it comes to Iran (who threatened to tear up the nuke deal?). That's the most preposterous thing you've ever said - on this thread, anyway.
Anyway let's start a new thread if you really want to continue this. I can't read the tiny columns anymore.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34050972) |
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Date: June 21st, 2018 10:23 PM Author: soggy histrionic indian lodge trump supporter
>> saying "I don't want my kids to goto a school that has Jews" is pretty far cry from saying "I don't want my kid to go a school teaching catholic teachings." Come on. Also, not wanting your kid to go to school with Jews is pretty antisemetic. I'm not even sure Jews have distinct sociocultural vibe in 2017, but even if they did, so what? Not wanting your kids to goto a school that has Jews is just garden variety Antisemitism. <<
I'm sure you won't see this at this point, but iirc Bannon said that in context of the school being both jewish AND very wealthy.
My fiancee is Jewish and she grew up in a very affluent and Jewish town in NY and went to high school with with probably a majority that was affluent and jewish -- and not nearly as wealthy as the kids Bannon was talking about -- and she flat out said to me given her experience she 100% would not want her kids going to a school that affluent and jewish, for a host of reasons, not the least of which is how spoiled and neurotic they all are (and she's at least mildly neurotic).
She took Bannon's comments the same way as he meant them -- not that he hates jews, but that he simply knew he didn't want to raise his kids in that environment.
It's like someone who says they don't want to send their kids to Darien High School because it's too rich and preppy -- well, it is, and if that's not what they want they're better off not sending their kids to school there. I'd take no offense to that.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#36288033) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 5:16 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
I mean, I'm still waiting. I said xo is constantly caricaturing libtards without properly stating their positions and evaluating--getting fucked up failure to launch style by not even phrasing the libtard position correctly, and someone points to a study that suggests conturds understand libtard positions better than libtards understand conturds, so I asked if anyone on xo participated in the study, which might make the article relevant to the OP. No answer. No response. Also, note, I didn't say that libtards don't do the same thing. But I'm talking about xo and xo only, and the conturd nonsense on xo is thick as fuck over what libtards, cartoon libtards, must believe and want.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047385) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 5:22 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
"someone points to a study that suggests conturds understand libtard positions better than libtards understand conturds"
you'd think this would be relevant to the topic, yes
if you want to limit your claims to xo, then no one can talk about society generally at all ITT. and you haven't been shy about doing that, so i have to assume this is an isolated demand for rigor, not a serious attempt at addressing the question
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047423) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:29 PM Author: Dashing gold national Subject: Here are a few
There's no good reason why we shouldn't have universal healthcare.
Universal basic income would be an improvement over the current Byzantine safety net.
We need to spend a lot of money to improve our infrastructure.
Tax rates on the ultrawealthy are too low.
Minorities face discrimination in a lot of areas.
As a public policy matter abortion should remain legal in all 50 states.
The Republican Party is engaged in an unconscionable voter suppression campaign.
The President is too stupid to be in charge of the country and its nuclear arsenal.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045381) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:33 PM Author: Cerise bearded crotch weed whacker
Great you just picked out some moderate positions ("need to spend a lot to improve infrastructure") or mild ways of stating more extreme positions ("minorities face a lot of discrimination")
Very few people are strongly against most of the above.
And lol at the "tax rates of ultra wealthy are too low". Very few dem politicians actually try to get this fine. They are controlled by their donors too.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045420) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:54 PM Author: Cerise bearded crotch weed whacker
You are so obtuse just like every lib on this board.
What is one for "minorities face discrimination" or whatever you said?
I'm sure there are many other ways to frame the policy position behind that.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045627) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:38 PM Author: Hairless rigor cruise ship
Board lib: This is what I think. <States position.>
Board shitcon: No you don't think that. You actually think <insert straw man>.
Board lib: No, I think what I just said.
Board shitcon: No you don't.
Rinse, repeat.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046037) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:43 PM Author: Harsh Pearly Station
There's no good reason why adults shouldn't be responsible for their own healthcare.
Universal basic income would turn the ghetto into a literal war zone. Children would go hungry as their mothers spend their UBI on drugs.
States need to spend a lot of money to improve their own infrastructure.
Tax rates on the ultrawealthy result in them paying 85% of all income tax. How much more should we ask them to pay?
Minorities take every slight and assume it only occurred due to bigotry, when in reality people are rude regardless of race.
As a public policy matter abortion should remain legal in all 50 states in the first trimester or if the mothers life is in jeopardy
The Democrat Party thinks blacks are too stupid to get drivers licenses.
The President is in charge of the country and because libs don't like his agenda of putting citizens first, they make up lies (Russian collusion, Trump is a nazi sympathizer) to discredit him.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045381)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045515) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:58 PM Author: Dashing gold national
Response:
- Virtually every other advanced country has universal healthcare.
- People living in the ghetto already get lots of wealthfare, UBI would streamline the process and remove the incentive against work that a lot of programs have.
- States and the federal government should both be spending money. Lot easier for the Feds to raise funds.
- The 85 percent figure is wrong unless you consider $250k per year to be ultra wealthy.
- There are a lot of studies that show institutionalized discrimination to this day. That discrimination contributes to the "victimization" attitude, as do other things.
- Sounds like we agree on abortion, but most pro-life people would go further in restricting it.
- no idea what you mean by "blacks are too stupid to get drivers licenses".Licenses cost money and also not everyone drives.
- Trump discredits himself with his own mouth. He's an unstable, narcissistic conman, and he does indeed sympathize with Nazis and the rest of the alt right, praising the "very good people" among them.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045646) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:11 PM Author: Harsh Pearly Station
This country was built on individualism and we don't want to be like low GDP/capita shit countries. We didnt become the greatest country in the history of the species by being like everyone else. Pay your own way loser.
- libs would never allow UBI without other benefits.
- States need to pay for their own infrastructure, not steal from other states via the fed gov.
- There are a lot of (((studies))) that show what they are commissioned to show. Institutions bend over backward to appeal to minorities and hire them.
Libs think having to show an ID to vote is disenfranchising. Everyone except the most degenerate people have IDs.
- Trump said some people supporting the statues are "very good people." He never said some nazis are good people. Libs are just disengenuous shitheads.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045751) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:22 PM Author: Sienna disrespectful pervert
- "Virtually every other advanced country has universal healthcare." therefore no further analysis needs to be done as to how and if it would work here. very confidence inspiring.
- so the solution is more and easier to get welfare?
- infrastructure is fine if it's stuff we actually need. problem is libs want to spend it on wind farms and high speed rail.
- libs only wanting to raise taxes on the wealthy is the lie of the century. they want to and in fact get excited about raising taxes on the middle class. why? because it makes them more like the lower class and more dependent on libs to provide them shit. raising taxes on the middle classes is like the holy grail to libs.
- bunch of bullshit non-actionable statements. state an actual policy to fix racism if you think one exists, otherwise stfu.
- usa already has some of the most lax abortion laws in the world. we don't need roe v wade repealed but we also don't want a country where you can get abortions at CVS and 12 year old girls can get iuds from school nurses w/o parental consent.
- the impact of either that or ppl voting illegally is pretty minimal. the worst imo even though it's legal, are the organized "voter drives" done in ghettos where minorities are bused in, told how to vote, and then probably given a sandwich afterwards. it just a reminder how minorities nothing more than cattle who are able to vote in the minds of libs. but yea, we're the racist ones.
- Trump is great and his win in november was a huge victory for american democracy and our way of life. also no, he's not dumber than any of our other recent potuses.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045860) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:41 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
without responding to these individually on their merits, c'mon man, it's really disingenuous to pretend that these are "the liberal position". you can find some people on the right to argue the other side of each of these, but not as many as you think (e.g. around half of republicans don't want Roe completely overturned).
but e.g. on abortion, the actual moderate liberal position is, as articulated by hilldawg on the debate stage, that late-term restrictions (with health outs) may be worth discussing. (bernie's position is no restrictions ever for any reason). source: i read it in mother jones. so "remain legal in all 50 states" is a very minimal statement of the liberal position, one that would have buyin from a lot of republican voters (and a lot of prominent bort republicans, like fish, mandy and earl).
likewise, i don't think even the sickest stormfront reptiles would deny that "[m]inorities face discrimination in a lot of areas". rather, the question is what do we do about it, does anything need to be done about it, is one-way discrimination the whole story, are claimed proofs of discrimination valid, how do we prevent hysterical and media-driven overreactions, what do we do about difficult questions of natural inequality, etc.
basically your list is elaborate self-justifying flame, and either you know this and you're just being a shithead, or you don't and you are busily failing your own ITT ITT.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046075) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:03 PM Author: White judgmental step-uncle's house hominid
from your OP:
"Just take the basic libtard position on a subject and state it clearly"
"the basic libtard position" on abortion is not "it should be legal in some form in all states". as i demonstrated by citing to position statements from both D presidential candidates this cycle, it's that there should be few to no restrictions on it. jimmy clausen did not state "the basic libtard position", he stated a compromise position that would command broad bipartisan support.
likewise re minorities. few shitcons disagree that minorities sometimes face discrimination. that's such a broad, bland statement that you'd have to be a little dim -- spaceporn-level dim, perhaps -- to disagree with it. per this piece, e.g., 38% of republicans favor AA for minorities: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/08/28/americans-think-minorities-face-more-discrimination-than-women-but-should-get-less-affirmative-action/?utm_term=.a880aa7079ef
so, again, he didn't state "the basic libtard position", he stated a broadly acceptable position with bipartisan support. perhaps the takeaway is that even self-identified libtards aren't willing to be honest about the specifics of what they want.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046253) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:54 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
he's right on libtard abortion. Dead right. He's right on discrimination statement, which he has to be a bit more guarded on to be as inclusive as possible in his drafting.
The fact that these have large bipartisan support only means that your "libtard" is a fiction--a caricature of the basic libtard position.
I can tell you this now by looking clearly at the writing. I know that doesn't mean anything to you, but given that he's made an effort to be intellectually honest in his summary, I have to say I think its more likely that your view of what libtards actually believe is what is inaccurate here, not his summary. Others would agree and have agreed already.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046764) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:39 PM Author: Aqua Pungent Lettuce Antidepressant Drug
*opens thread*
*sees OP is Spaceporn*
*immediately closes xo and trashes computer*
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045475) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 1:40 PM Author: Talented black abode death wish
I often do, and I also used to be quite liberal and still and Bush-era lib on many issues.
I even try to steer unhinged libs into a reasonable lib position, away from what's usually some incredibly conclusory hyperbolic nonsense.
And fwiw I recommend libs do this exercise, too. If the opposition view strikes you as totally foreign and based on weird principles, maybe you should learn to speak that language just a little bit so you can understand them. And then I get intelligent libs responding that only sociologists are able to analyze demographics and statistics and culture and I should shut up and defer to them.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045486) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:18 PM Author: Vibrant Stag Film
Libs: civil union -> gay marriage -> tranny bathrooms -> pedo mayors?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34045820)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 2:53 PM Author: crystalline selfie
1) We are all human beings, We are all equal
2) therefore group differences must be the result of discrimination
3) if we end discrimination we will eliminate group differences
4) efforts to end discrimination have disappointing outcomes
5) there must be some sort of insidious hidden discrimination
6) we must redouble our efforts
is this about right?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046184) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:20 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
on the one issue of race I think you've about got it.
I suppose another view on it is that its better to propagate this rather than any alternative as people just aren't going to get along with each other if any other alternative is entertained.
FWIW I've made my position on race issues abundantly well known and am not part of the libtard platform in that regard. Although some of the ugliness that comes up makes me wonder if we'd be better off with some sort of groupthink that like detailed above.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046409) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:08 PM Author: thriller hospital
1) open borders
2) unlimited immigration of Islamic fundamentalists
3) criminalized hate speech and thought by white men
4) de-criminalized theft and violent crimes by minorities
5) forced integration of lower-income-housing and welfare recipients into middle class neighborhoods
6) refusal to deport a single illegal alien
7) refusal to allow the POTUS to oversee immigration
8) refusal to allow any immigration restrictions whatsoever
9) refusal to allow POTUS to oversee the DOJ
10) refusal to enforce English as the official language of the country
these are all core liberal positions off the top of my head. I am strenuously opposed to each and every single of them.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046304)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:21 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
none of these are.
Through hyperbole and mischaracterization you have managed to not state even ONE Libtard principle correctly or accurately.
I think you need a remedial freshman writing class for clarity of thought, friend.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046418) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 3:31 PM Author: Clear fear-inspiring site
no problem!
1. White people, if you don’t have any descendants, will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably one that lives in generational poverty.
2. White people, if you’re inheriting property you intend to sell upon acceptance, give it to a black or brown family. You’re bound to make that money in some other white privileged way.
3. If you are a developer or realty owner of multi-family housing, build a sustainable complex in a black or brown blighted neighborhood and let black and brown people live in it for free.
4. White people, if you can afford to downsize, give up the home you own to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.
5. White people, if any of the people you intend to leave your property to are racists assholes, change the will, and will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.
6. White people, re-budget your monthly so you can donate to black funds for land purchasing.
7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the fuck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.
8. Backing up No. 7, this should be easy but all those sheetless Klan, Nazi’s and Other lil’ dick-white men will all be returning to work. Get they ass fired. Call the police even: they look suspicious.
9. OK, backing up No. 8, if any white person at your work, or as you enter in spaces and you overhear a white person praising the actions from yesterday, first, get a pic. Get their name and more info. Hell, find out where they work — Get Them Fired. But certainly address them, and, if you need to, you got hands: use them.
10. Commit to two things: Fighting white supremacy where and how you can (this doesn’t mean taking up knitting, unless you’re making scarves for black and brown kids in need), and funding black and brown people and their work.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34046518) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 4:51 PM Author: Mildly autistic slap-happy space boiling water
Western civilization and all its tradition, practices and institutions are nothing but an oppressive patriarchy designed by white men to discriminate and exploit the planet and everyone in it. We must undermine this unjust system by any means necessary.
Think that covers it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047217) |
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 5:05 PM Author: Arrogant brindle rehab friendly grandma
lol i feel like I'm back in college trying to get an A in a bullshit class. First, overstates massively. tbf though try to unpack it a bit to be consistent with OP's suggestion.
How about this:
Some plans and systems currently in place are designed to disenfranchise women and minorities.
Probably agreed, right?
They also have the effect of harming the global ecology.
Probably overall agreed, with some caveats, right?
Accordingly, in the interests of justice it is fair to consider structural inequalities and disenfranchisement in our actions. Probably agreed, right? We all want to be *fair*, right?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047320)
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Date: August 22nd, 2017 5:55 PM Author: Aphrodisiac international law enforcement agency
Fundamentally, people are bundles of constructed identities. What is essential to a person is not his color, creed, parents or heritage; what is essential to a person is his present life, and the space he occupies within a constructed social order.
That social order is endlessly fluid, which accounts for the diversity of modes of living we see across time and space. Different concepts of time, of God, of the soul, of the mind, of space, of geometry, of narrative, of sex, of love, of life. How else can we explain this but by acknowledging a simple, if difficult to reckon with, truth: we live in a multidimensional identity space, and that space is continually shifting? We cannot do otherwise.
Indeed, even the evidence supports this. Sure, some differences previously understood by science and culture to be somehow fundamental to persons--race and gender, for instance--remain resilient to the "flex" of identity space. But they are ultimately no more fundamental to people than religion or culture, and the science bears this out. We find that culture and religion do indeed have some marginal genetic or epigenetic predictors. It isn't as if our bodies give us no preconditions. But we have come to agreement, and seen in the evidence, that culture and religion change, and they change more than our bodies have.
In race and gender, we further see evidence of important genetic determinants, especially in bodies. But while bodies are only partially socially constructed, identities, even unto the structure of the brain itself, are much more clearly socially constructed. Identity is, after all, a mental phenomenon, and so it should come as no surprise that our above-the-neck identities are more susceptible to change than our below-the-neck identities. We should then expect these most bodily of determinants upon identity, race and gender, to eventually go the way of culture: that which is universally agreed-upon to be a principally social phenomena, even accepting some bodily / genetic inputs and constraints upon it.
So, given this brute fact of the world, that mankind is forever being reoriented in identity space, it is imperative to provide a center of moral gravity within that space toward which mankind can be pulled.
This doesn't necessarily have to be future-oriented; indeed, the past can teach us important moral lessons. But it is perhaps not an accident that the arc of identity bends toward a future of openness and inclusion. As identities reorient themselves, we find the old categories we used to taxonomize people by tend to fall away, as the low finds himself mingling with the high, and the strong cast down among the weak. And, unsurprisingly, when a man no longer is forced to choose between his God and his homosexual family member, or when a woman need not be shunted into the mold of "mother" when a productive public life is unfurled before her, people are happier. And that, after all, is the name of the game.
For those reasons, we aim to include. We aim to unite. We aim to bring together. And, yes, to blend. And there are pains. There are pains associated with change. Just as there are pains of growth. But as a child grows into maturity, so does a society. And that is not a process to fight, but to feed.
Western cultures are unique, and they do have a unique inheritance. But because identities are constructed, it is one that they can, and indeed should, gift to others. It is a heritage that has in front of it a moral gravity toward which we all must cascade. Its heritage is a proposition: that all men are created equal. That heritage is the finest of us, a resilient universal truth that may as well be considered an axis of identity space. And until it is a dimension in which all of us partake, we will not have fulfilled our promise and possibility of being, truly, special.
And, so, we must construct policies, and live lives, that create the possibility for that very future. Of universal equality, in deep recognition and respect for the self-declaration of all peoples to identify as whomever they wish. This is a future worth hoping for. Maybe the only one.
Is that about what you retards believe?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34047658) |
Date: August 22nd, 2017 7:18 PM Author: Curious New Version Coldplay Fan
the autistic rationalist types call this "steelmanning" and it is a good practice but
1) a lot of the people here have already made the calculations in their head about the best lib positions and why they're wrong, and don't feel the need to repeat their work. most poasters are pretty smart doods and the conservative arguments here are facile but could easily fleshed out into more substantial ideas
2) it's very, very hard to muster up the willpower to give libs the benefit of the doubt when, 99% of the time, the media crafts the most lolworthy of strawmen of conservative talking points and then gives it a snarky "takedown" as if only an insane person would think otherwise. lib condescension nowadays is so extreme that none of us want to bother
3) takes away time from soft tooth MEATBONE forcememing, IFNB, etc. there are so few intelligent conservative boards on the web that nobody wants to log onto xo to effortpoast, we just want to laugh and feel good
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3708666&forum_id=2#34048208) |
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