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Which famous musician's legacy was helped most by an early death?

Intuitively I feel like Cobain is the right answer here, but...
Carnelian windowlicker
  04/23/18
Cobain for sure I don't know enough about Jim Morrison, b...
Curious hell round eye
  04/23/18
i think it's either Joplin or Morrison. both were already i...
sable soul-stirring toilet seat
  04/23/18
Jim Croce is still alive as a guitar teacher in Fairborn, Oh...
outnumbered vermilion circlehead
  04/23/18
Elvis
glittery property puppy
  04/23/18
Jimi easily. Had he stayed alive, he would've gone the Mile...
Naked giraffe
  04/23/18
Hendrix is a possibility, but his play was so unique and sou...
Carnelian windowlicker
  04/23/18
No way. It's not like Miles Davis's popular music is conside...
smoky kitchen tank
  04/23/18
it's obscure to most non-musicians, particularly his albums ...
Naked giraffe
  04/23/18
I don't know about that.
Curious hell round eye
  04/23/18
not having a Jimi/Santana Grammys "mashup" in 2003...
sable soul-stirring toilet seat
  04/23/18
like prince
hairraiser dog poop
  04/23/18
hank williams has to be up there. he was popular during his...
Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness
  04/23/18
...
Odious cuckoldry
  04/23/18
Wrong. Johnny Cash wasn't pop-country and remained relevant...
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
lol, don't be silly. songs like "walk the line" a...
Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness
  04/23/18
Johnny Cash's career was at a point of very high irrelevancy...
Provocative Shrine
  04/23/18
Joplin or cobain
blathering ape
  04/23/18
Cr
Duck-like aromatic internal respiration
  04/23/18
how was joplin's career helped by her death? she sucked bef...
Naked giraffe
  04/23/18
lol no, she's idolized by ugly fat boomers who love ugly fat...
sable soul-stirring toilet seat
  04/23/18
btw, the musicians i listed are just some suggestions. certa...
Carnelian windowlicker
  04/23/18
I always forget buddy holly even existed
blathering ape
  04/23/18
the Big Bopper was supposed to be on that plane. You're prob...
maroon reading party coldplay fan
  04/23/18
holly was wildly-popular when he was alive and had a massive...
Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness
  04/23/18
Buddy Holly was cr and on his way to being huge
Arousing out-of-control school cafeteria halford
  04/23/18
Buddy Holly is an interesting choice - he released a stunnin...
chocolate chad black woman
  04/24/18
Morrison.
awkward heady gunner meetinghouse
  04/23/18
Joplin wouldn't be anywhere close to as famous if not for he...
drab queen of the night
  04/23/18
...
blathering ape
  04/23/18
...
talented locus personal credit line
  04/23/18
Sublime is another example of an early death drastically inc...
blathering ape
  04/23/18
that's probably true
Carnelian windowlicker
  04/23/18
I heard an obscure sublime song last weekend that I had neve...
Curious hell round eye
  04/23/18
Sublime are HUGE among the appropriate age group.
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
Morrison. He was on his way to becoming a has-been fat boome...
Hideous khaki kitty cat
  04/23/18
Jim Morrison, easily. He was already in a steep decline. ...
ultramarine abnormal university
  04/23/18
Buddy Holly had a lot of future potential. Richie Valens an...
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
janis joplin
Razzle boltzmann national
  04/23/18
Sid Vicious, because he was a shitty "musician" an...
Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm
  04/23/18
I don't think he has a musical legacy though.
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
well, OP said "musician's legacy", not musical leg...
Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm
  04/23/18
this is pretty cr. look what became of johnny rotten post se...
Razzle boltzmann national
  04/23/18
Actually Public Image Ltd was a great band who made some rea...
Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm
  04/23/18
Cr
Provocative Shrine
  04/23/18
Rotten had Public Image Ltd which was far superior to the Se...
maroon reading party coldplay fan
  04/23/18
Public Image Ltd is pretty cr, faggit.
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
listen guys i never heard this public image or whatever band...
Razzle boltzmann national
  04/23/18
I'd say that he didn't have nearly as much fame with PiL as ...
Provocative Shrine
  04/23/18
...
maize bat-shit-crazy gaming laptop
  04/24/18
Cobain easily, give nirvana two more albums and he's not the...
Fiercely-loyal 180 mad cow disease
  04/23/18
Cobain had future potential. He was actually talking about ...
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
...
Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm
  04/23/18
Sure, sure. It would have sucked
Fiercely-loyal 180 mad cow disease
  04/23/18
lol
Razzle boltzmann national
  04/23/18
What about Bob Marley? He's revered as almost a religious, ...
Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm
  04/23/18
Naw. He died at 36 from natural causes. I think his popula...
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/23/18
speaking of him, that's kind of what happened to robert john...
Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness
  04/23/18
Nah, reefer Bob was legit
Bearded sapphire ticket booth legal warrant
  04/23/18
Scott Weiland
hairraiser dog poop
  04/23/18
The Scott Weiland story is what would have happened to Kurt ...
Provocative Shrine
  04/23/18
cr. scott weiland would be held in far higher esteem had he...
sable soul-stirring toilet seat
  04/24/18
The guy who sang la bamba
magenta big garrison
  04/24/18
Richie Valens, already mentioned.
Passionate fat ankles temple
  04/24/18
Isaac Brock
maize bat-shit-crazy gaming laptop
  04/24/18
morrison is prolly most cr but Elliott Smith is pretty clos...
snowy frisky laser beams
  04/24/18
My moniker is partly an homage to E. Smith but I don't reall...
Provocative Shrine
  04/24/18


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:08 PM
Author: Carnelian windowlicker

Intuitively I feel like Cobain is the right answer here, but what about people like Buddy Holly, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Notorious B.I.G., etc?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902653)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:11 PM
Author: Curious hell round eye

Cobain for sure

I don't know enough about Jim Morrison, but the Doors had like 9 studio albums plus multiple live albums. If he lived, he would just be another boomer musician who gets fat and dies at like 70

Notorious B.I.G. was helped, but if he were still alive I think he would still be somewhat relevant today, in the way that Jay Z and Snoop Dogg are today (not a ton of big hits anymore, but still around)

I don't know shit about Janis Joplin

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902687)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:12 PM
Author: sable soul-stirring toilet seat

i think it's either Joplin or Morrison. both were already in steady decline at time of death and got revived with publicity from death.

jim croce is probably another option. he was planning to quit music and become a screenwriter when his plane crashed

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902699)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:27 PM
Author: outnumbered vermilion circlehead

Jim Croce is still alive as a guitar teacher in Fairborn, Ohio

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902839)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:13 PM
Author: glittery property puppy

Elvis

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902706)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:14 PM
Author: Naked giraffe

Jimi easily. Had he stayed alive, he would've gone the Miles free jazz route into obscurity rather than remain a perennial rock god.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902720)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:14 PM
Author: Carnelian windowlicker

Hendrix is a possibility, but his play was so unique and soulful that he would have continued to be revered as a guitar icon

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902727)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:14 PM
Author: smoky kitchen tank

No way. It's not like Miles Davis's popular music is considered obscure now.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902729)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:16 PM
Author: Naked giraffe

it's obscure to most non-musicians, particularly his albums after bitches brew.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902749)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:18 PM
Author: Curious hell round eye

I don't know about that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902762)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:45 PM
Author: sable soul-stirring toilet seat

not having a Jimi/Santana Grammys "mashup" in 2003 was probably the saving grace of our (((culture)))

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904974)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:18 PM
Author: hairraiser dog poop

like prince

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905199)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:15 PM
Author: Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness

hank williams has to be up there. he was popular during his lifetime, but his style of "country-western" was actually getting overtaken by pop country near the end of his run. his death turned him into a cultural icon.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902737)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:17 PM
Author: Odious cuckoldry



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902760)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:45 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Wrong. Johnny Cash wasn't pop-country and remained relevant right up to his death.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904977)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:52 PM
Author: Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness

lol, don't be silly. songs like "walk the line" and "ring of fire" (his biggest early hits) were much more pop-country than anything hank williams did aside from maybe "hey good lookin'". HW was doing weird, jittery songs like "kaw-liga" or singing plaintively about how he wasn't going to make it out of the world alive.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905020)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:06 PM
Author: Provocative Shrine

Johnny Cash's career was at a point of very high irrelevancy before he linked up with Rick Rubin to do the American albums

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905094)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:16 PM
Author: blathering ape

Joplin or cobain

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902741)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:16 PM
Author: Duck-like aromatic internal respiration

Cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902747)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:17 PM
Author: Naked giraffe

how was joplin's career helped by her death? she sucked before she died and didn't really get any more popular or revered posthumously

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902758)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:45 PM
Author: sable soul-stirring toilet seat

lol no, she's idolized by ugly fat boomers who love ugly fat singers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904978)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:21 PM
Author: Carnelian windowlicker

btw, the musicians i listed are just some suggestions. certainly not meant to be exhaustive.

Buddy Holly certainly gets a lot of cache from dying in that plane crash. who knows if he'd have ever made it really big

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902789)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:23 PM
Author: blathering ape

I always forget buddy holly even existed

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902807)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:52 PM
Author: maroon reading party coldplay fan

the Big Bopper was supposed to be on that plane. You're probably thinking "who the fuck is the Big Bopper". Exactly.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905021)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:54 PM
Author: Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness

holly was wildly-popular when he was alive and had a massive #1 hit in 1957 with "That'll Be the Day." richie valens is probably a better example of someone who became a lot more popular as a result of that crash, and then again after that 80's biopic came out.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905035)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:06 PM
Author: Arousing out-of-control school cafeteria halford

Buddy Holly was cr and on his way to being huge

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905096)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 6:11 AM
Author: chocolate chad black woman

Buddy Holly is an interesting choice - he released a stunning number of classic songs in an extraordinarily short period of time - like 18 months. There's no way he could've kept up anything like that pace.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906923)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:18 PM
Author: awkward heady gunner meetinghouse

Morrison.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902763)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:20 PM
Author: drab queen of the night

Joplin wouldn't be anywhere close to as famous if not for her death. Her most well-known album, with pretty much the only songs people know from her, was released posthumously

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902783)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:23 PM
Author: blathering ape



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902803)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:04 PM
Author: talented locus personal credit line



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905080)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:24 PM
Author: blathering ape

Sublime is another example of an early death drastically increasing their popularity. Not on the same level as some others, but certainly worth mentioning

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902816)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:26 PM
Author: Carnelian windowlicker

that's probably true

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902828)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:28 PM
Author: Curious hell round eye

I heard an obscure sublime song last weekend that I had never heard before (not one of the usual ones you hear on the radio). it was awesome.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902844)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:46 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Sublime are HUGE among the appropriate age group.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904987)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 4:31 PM
Author: Hideous khaki kitty cat

Morrison. He was on his way to becoming a has-been fat boomer when he died.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35902875)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:42 PM
Author: ultramarine abnormal university

Jim Morrison, easily. He was already in a steep decline.

Could maybe argue Ian Curtis.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904948)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:44 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Buddy Holly had a lot of future potential. Richie Valens and the Big Bopper OTOH are only remembered for dying.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904958)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:46 PM
Author: Razzle boltzmann national

janis joplin

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904983)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:47 PM
Author: Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm

Sid Vicious, because he was a shitty "musician" and an utter retard who wouldn't have been able to go onto anything else and basically did nothing else but die. Instead he became an icon, on t-shirts, had movies made about him

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35904991)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:56 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

I don't think he has a musical legacy though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905041)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 9:57 PM
Author: Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm

well, OP said "musician's legacy", not musical legacy in particular

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905049)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:01 PM
Author: Razzle boltzmann national

this is pretty cr. look what became of johnny rotten post sex pistols. just a bloated rat faced brit with nothing interesting to say.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905070)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:02 PM
Author: Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm

Actually Public Image Ltd was a great band who made some really good albums in the 80s. And Rotten was a clever guy. But Sid Vicious was a literal retard.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905073)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:03 PM
Author: Provocative Shrine

Cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905078)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:02 PM
Author: maroon reading party coldplay fan

Rotten had Public Image Ltd which was far superior to the Sex Pistols

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905074)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:02 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Public Image Ltd is pretty cr, faggit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905075)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:07 PM
Author: Razzle boltzmann national

listen guys i never heard this public image or whatever band so i stand by my post.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905098)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:27 PM
Author: Provocative Shrine

I'd say that he didn't have nearly as much fame with PiL as he did with the Sex Pistols

But they still put out some good music

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905286)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 12:14 AM
Author: maize bat-shit-crazy gaming laptop



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906078)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:04 PM
Author: Fiercely-loyal 180 mad cow disease

Cobain easily, give nirvana two more albums and he's not the "voice of a generation" they're just another grunge band

Morrison was basically done already when he died and Hendrix would have done at least a couple more cool things

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905081)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:05 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Cobain had future potential. He was actually talking about moving on from grunge before he offed himself.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905088)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:06 PM
Author: Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905091)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:09 PM
Author: Fiercely-loyal 180 mad cow disease

Sure, sure. It would have sucked

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905111)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:19 PM
Author: Razzle boltzmann national

lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905206)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:07 PM
Author: Orchid Appetizing Pisswyrm

What about Bob Marley? He's revered as almost a religious, mystical figure thanks to his early death. Would he have turned into a boring old GC faggot later in life?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905102)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:14 PM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Naw. He died at 36 from natural causes. I think his popularity is based on a solid catalog of hits.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905151)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:21 PM
Author: Wonderful mischievous twinkling uncleanness

speaking of him, that's kind of what happened to robert johnson. going from a regional celebrity to some kind of "blues saint," in large part because he died young.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905224)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 11:34 PM
Author: Bearded sapphire ticket booth legal warrant

Nah, reefer Bob was legit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905840)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:19 PM
Author: hairraiser dog poop

Scott Weiland

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905202)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 23rd, 2018 10:29 PM
Author: Provocative Shrine

The Scott Weiland story is what would have happened to Kurt Cobain had he lived that long

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35905295)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 12:13 AM
Author: sable soul-stirring toilet seat

cr. scott weiland would be held in far higher esteem had he not turned into an insufferable junkie twink

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906073)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 12:08 AM
Author: magenta big garrison

The guy who sang la bamba

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906044)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 12:10 AM
Author: Passionate fat ankles temple

Richie Valens, already mentioned.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906053)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 12:15 AM
Author: maize bat-shit-crazy gaming laptop

Isaac Brock

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906079)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 3:03 AM
Author: snowy frisky laser beams

morrison is prolly most cr

but Elliott Smith is pretty close

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906676)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 24th, 2018 3:20 AM
Author: Provocative Shrine

My moniker is partly an homage to E. Smith but I don't really agree with him being a candidate for this thread. He hit a certain level of popularity in the early 2000s and just kinda maintained it. Didn't really increase it much posthumously IMO

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3957604&forum_id=2#35906736)