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Did an actual Jesus (regardless of divinity) actual live and walk the earth?
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Date: August 20th, 2018 9:43 PM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter some ppl argue not. apologeticsmos come itt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory |
Date: August 20th, 2018 9:49 PM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit the best argument in favor of it is that he would be a really bizarre and difficult figure to just invent there was zero self-interested reason for multiple dudes to start some new-fangled religion that threatened both Jews and Romans, putting themselves at great personal risk. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:18 AM Author: turquoise haunting dilemma Not really. You think Christ was the first charismatic preacher who was a son of god that rose from the dead? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654243) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World%27s_Sixteen_Crucified_Saviors
Graves, often citing Anacalypsis and other works by Godfrey Higgins (1772–1833) as his source, asserts in the book that many messiah-like "saviors" were crucified on a cross or tree before ascending into heaven.
"One thing is clear — the mythos of the Hindus, the mythos of the Jews and the mythos of the Greeks are all at bottom the same; and what are called their early histories are not histories of humankind, but are contrivances under the appearance of histories to perpetuate doctrines." (Higgins, Anacalypsis)
Here is Graves' main list, arranged chronologically:
Thulis of Egypt, 1700 B. C.[5] Krishna of India, 1200 B.C. Crite of Chaldea, 1200 B.C.[6][7] Atys of Phrygia, 1170 B.C. Thammuz or Tammuz of Syria, 1160 B.C. Hesus or Eros 834 B.C. Bali of Orissa, 725 B.C.[8] Indra of Thibet (Tibet), 725 B.C. Iao of Nepaul (Nepal), 622 B.C.[9][10] Buddha Sakia (Muni) of India, 600 B.C.[11] Mitra (Mithra) of Persia, 600 B.C. Alcestos of Euripides, 600 B.C. Quezalcoatl of Mexico, 587 B.C. Wittoba of the Bilingonese, 552 B.C.[12] Prometheus or Æschylus of Caucasus, 547 B.C. Quirinus of Rome, 506 B.C.
He also lists a number of other holy figures who took the form of men and then ascended into heaven, including:
Salivahana of Bermuda Zulis or Zhule of Egypt[13] Osiris of Egypt Oru of Egypt Odin of the Scandinavians Zoroaster of Persia Baal of Phoenicia Taut, "the only Begotten of God" of Phoenicia, inventor of letters[14] Bali of Afghanistan Xamolxis (Zalmoxis) of Thrace Zoar of the Bonzes Adad of Assyria Deva Tat of Siam (Thailand) Sammonocadam (Sommona-Codom) of Siam (Thailand)[15] Alcides of Thebes Mikado of the Sintoos Beddru of Japan Bremrillah of the Druids[16] Thor son of Odin of the Gauls/Norse Cadmus of Greece Hil/Feta of the Mandaites[17] Gentaut of Mexico[18] Universal Monarch of the Sibyls Ischy of Formosa (Taiwan)[19] Divine Teacher of Plato Holy One of Xaca[20] (Fohi) of China Tien of China Adonis son of the virgin Io of Greece Ixion of Rome Mohamud or Mahomet of Arabia.
The book claims that a number of these deities or god-men shared at least some traits of Jesus as described in the New Testament, drawing the strongest similarities with Krishna. For example, some figures had miraculous or virgin births, were sons of supreme gods, were born on December 25, had stars point to their birthplaces, were visited by shepherds and magi as infants, fled from death as children, exhibited traits of divinity in childhood, spent time in the desert, traveled as they taught, had disciples, performed miracles, were persecuted, were crucified, descended into hell after death, appeared as resurrections or apparitions, or ascended into heaven. Graves also devotes chapters to the pagan roots of baptism and the eucharist, and concludes that Jesus was not a real person. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:23 AM Author: turquoise haunting dilemma exactly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654290) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:56 AM Author: Odious Know-it-all Therapy Theater Stage >were born on december 25
this reveals the author as full of shit, though, because everyone knows jesus wasn't born on dec 25 and the religion has literally never claimed so - christmas celebrates christ's birth but was chosen because it fell on a pagan holiday, not because of a belif that jesus was born dec 25
how does someone with good arguments fuck up that badly? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:44 AM Author: Cyan Cowardly Address "However, according to Carrier, there is no comprehensive rebuttal of the book, and although many of his facts are wrong, others assertions such as a December 25 birthdate among Greco-Roman sun gods are now acknowledged to be correct." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654741) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:07 PM Author: Pontificating Pisswyrm Knife check the date of publish (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655348) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:35 AM Author: Supple sienna plaza ceo Some Mormons believe Quezalcoatl of Mexico was actually Jesus (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654665) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2018 12:14 PM Author: Exhilarant hall puppy would've been crazy to be one of those mexican bros and see that ship coming your way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36737032) |
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Date: August 20th, 2018 9:50 PM Author: Transparent state the evidence for the existence of most figures from that era is patchy. there's no particular reason to single out Jesus as fake, among many other famous figures from classical history who are known and assumed to be real from even less.
notably, I'd say, no early critics of Christianity claimed that Jesus did not actually exist |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:08 AM Author: Translucent Chapel Fortuitous Meteor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654184) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:12 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter there's only like 3 throwaway references to Jesus at all by roman historians. meanwhile the earliest Christian sects were so small, scattered, and at odds with each other there would be little reason for some "critic" to step forward and make a big announcement that christmos were frauds? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654203) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:58 AM Author: Odious Know-it-all Therapy Theater Stage well they were visible enough that nero started killing them like 30 yrs after jesus (allegedly) died (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654478) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 12:20 PM Author: Irradiated gay wizard travel guidebook Fake news (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654988) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: Vigorous double fault useless brakes right, e.g. celsus said jesus was a poor jew who whored himself out to an egyptian magician to get powers, not that he didn't exist (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654269) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:03 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654166) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:05 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit I answered your question bro your thoughts? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:08 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter seems a weak argument and one based on probabilities, not on hard historical sources/methodologies. about as strong as the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654186) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:12 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit If it's so weak, then challenge it Why would a bunch of churches spring up out of nowhere in that area at that time and in that political and religious climate? Why would many men of those early churches willingly become prisoners and martyrs for the cause? It's not like Islam where there were clear political/military reasons for its explosion |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:13 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter because humans get caught up in retarded stuff all the time? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654214) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:17 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit so you think Paul and the many churches he was writing to were all just collectively drinking cult koolaid, believing so strongly in a mythical figure (who would've lived and died only decades before them) that they were willing to die for him? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654241) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: turquoise haunting dilemma yeah people become slavishly devoted to causes all the time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654266) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:24 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit not quite like this. again, these churches were springing up mere decades after Christ's life, so there would literally still be eyewitnesses around to confirm his physical existence, which is what this thread is about. You can question whether he performed miracles, rose from the dead, etc. since the gospels themselves were written later, but it is really dumb to assume that all these people just decided one day that they believed in a made-up guy from their own time. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:09 PM Author: Pontificating Pisswyrm Knife how "not quite like this"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655369) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:23 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter it's possible. humans get caught up in retarded stuff all the time. i'm not seriously arguing for this or taking a hard stance but it's interesting to think about in between all the osteen-threading and whatnot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654284) |
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Date: September 3rd, 2018 12:27 PM Author: Deep sooty keepsake machete generalized bond Cargo cult John frum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36737055) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:12 AM Author: Translucent Chapel Fortuitous Meteor Given the era, you're not going to find a bunch of "hard historical sources". But if you take that approach then you're going to be doubting a lot of ancient history and historical figures. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654206) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:14 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter cr wtf are we supposed to do (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654222) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:22 AM Author: Translucent Chapel Fortuitous Meteor To be totally honest, when it comes to religion doubts as to whether Jesus existed are significantly less serious than other criticisms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654282) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:44 PM Author: Spruce Orchestra Pit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655668) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:05 AM Author: racy striped hyena Wow, mythology entwined with religion? Never heard of such a thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654171) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:07 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit lol at a Jew calling any other religion out for mythological elements. Yeah bro, sure, a guy named Moses led all the Jewish slaves (of which zero historical evidence exists) out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea, etc. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:10 AM Author: racy striped hyena Did not single out a particular religion bro, just relax. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654191) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:14 AM Author: Blathering house black woman yes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654221) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:15 AM Author: floppy tank incel it's about as certain as we can be considering the historical evidence available at the time. like others said ITT, evidence for Jesus is as strong as evidence for other historical figures whose existence is rarely questioned.
and the gospels depart strongly from themes in other myths before them. jesus, god incarnate, being tortured and executed would be a very strange place to start for constructing a religion out of thin air. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 2:46 PM Author: Deep sooty keepsake machete generalized bond "and the gospels depart strongly from themes in other myths before them. jesus, god incarnate, being tortured and executed would be a very strange place to start for constructing a religion out of thin air."
that's because it wasn't constructed out of thin air. things have to be PRIMED already. and they were. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:19 AM Author: Provocative Liquid Oxygen There are good indications he was real. First, the official story is full of little factoids that are problematic and that no one would make up if they were inventing a story from whole cloth. For example you would not invent the fact that he was from Nazareth, which was a podunk nothing town. If you were making up the story you would just have him be born in Bethlehem.
Another indicator is the way the early churches were apparently established and run. The most compelling explanation for that is that there really was a religious community organized around one guy, close enough in time to that guy's lifetime that we really don't have a better explanation for how they popped up. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit one very important note on this point is the importance and frequency of women in the gospels, such as the fact that the first witnesses to the resurrection were women. If you were inventing a story that you wanted to be credible at that time, there is no chance you would make that up (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654265) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:28 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter they DO say he was born in Bethlehem wtf are you talking about (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654316) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:29 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit I think he meant to say Jerusalem or something (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654320) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:41 AM Author: Provocative Liquid Oxygen The point is that Nazareth had no business being mentioned unless the dude was actually from there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654393) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:57 AM Author: Spruce Orchestra Pit No they had to make this convoluted shit to have him BE in bethlehem including a census that probably didn't happen.
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:20 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner i think he probably never walked the earth. paul is a lot squishier on that point than you'd think he should be, if Jesus was a flesh and blood person. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654261) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: floppy tank incel can you explain the Paul thing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654273) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:22 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit ah the old "Paul invented Christianity" argument address my points above about how ill-advised this would be |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:25 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner yeah good point. it would be a bad idea to create Christianity so i guess no one did and there's no such thing as Christianity. you're a genius (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654296) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:30 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit wtf are you talking about? the point is you have to address when and where it was "created" and what would motivate someone (in this case, Paul) to do such a thing. The fact is that you can find no self-interest in it. You have to believe they were all just fucking nuts (which is what someone above stated) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:38 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner how does the story get simpler if one posits that a flesh and blood Jesus was the fucking nuts person who originated Christianity. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654368) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:45 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit if He was real and just fucking nuts, He was nuts in a completely unique way, as in literally a singular figure in all of human history. poasters ITT like to compare the Jesus myth to other myths, and say that the Gospels are legends. That may be true. But if it's not, and the real Jesus said the things He's purported to say (not even talking about actions/miracles, just statements), then He stands alone in history, claiming in the middle of a bunch of Jews and Romans that he was the literal Son of God, refusing to recant in the face of excruciating torture and death. He created thousands of loyal, believing followers in the span of a few years, despite the audacity of His claims. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:51 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner the most likely explanation is that paul believed he received a revelation from a spiritual jesus, preached on this basis, and later authors created stories about a physical jesus. that's not that hard to imagine (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654454) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:54 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit but Paul didn't singlehandedly generate all the churches he was writing to. Have you read the book of Acts? is that all legends too or what? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:04 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner it's quiet possible that paul had help, or wasn't even the first but merely the most literate. he suggests that other people had revelations similar to his own but earlier in 1 corinthians 15
acts was written by whoever wrote luke |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:07 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit and fwiw, Luke is considered to be by far the most "scholarly"/well-researched Gospel, so Acts would be in the same vein. Maybe the Ascension and Pentecost were made up, but the fact-based founding and spread of the early church wouldn't be something easily invented (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654511) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:12 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner maybe it wasn't made up entirely. so what? the story about the spread of the early church might have more or less happened. what does that have to do with a flesh and blood Jesus? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654526) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:15 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit in your own words above: "later authors created stories about a physical jesus" my point is that the Church started spreading before those later authors wrote anything down, so clearly a lot of people really believed they were onto something |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:16 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner and i'm suggesting they believed they were onto the same revealed Jesus that Paul believed he was onto (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654549) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:20 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit seems like you're now positing a massive koolaid effect that struck tons of people simultaneously in remarkably consistent ways. Now see my point downthread about how hard it would be to convert a bunch of Muslims that fast today http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&mc=71&forum_id=2#36654555 |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:25 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner we have a recent example of something similar happening. moroni didn't really visit joseph smith, but 70 years after he supposedly did mormonism was coming along quite nicely. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654592) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:26 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit yet again, he didn't claim to be divine himself, just that he was divinely inspired and ripped off Christianity. Do you think he would've been equally successful if he had claimed to be the REAL son of God and said that all of Christianity is false? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654599) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:32 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner it's likely that no human being ever claimed to be the son of god at the beginning of Christianity.
you're moving the goal posts, though. the question was whether the claimed revelation of a prophet can quickly give rise to a religious movement with a number of adherents professing similar beliefs, even if the revelation never occurred, and the answer is obviously yes.
nobody is arguing that the history of mormonism and the early Christian church are identical |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:40 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit I guess I'm still confused about who you're saying originated Christianity with their "revelation": Jesus or Paul? The main difference I'm trying to draw between the rise of, e.g. Mormonism and Christianity is that the early Christian church had no single revelation to adhere to, unless you concede that Jesus did actually make all those claims in the first place (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654704) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:53 AM Author: carmine hospital gunner i think it's unlikely jesus existed. Paul's revelation may not have been the first one (he says it wasn't, but that Peter's revelation was first). so under this theory the joseph smith of Christianity is someone else (maybe Peter) who perhaps didn't produce any writings that survive today but directly or indirectly influenced paul
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:55 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit idk man, seems like you are jumping through an AWFUL lot of hoops to come to this conclusion, even more than it would take to just say "yeah Jesus was real and these are the things He said, or close to it" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654824) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 12:02 PM Author: carmine hospital gunner i thought you were arguing elsewhere that it is implausible that someone would say the sort of things Jesus is purported to have said.
also I don't see the hoops. it's a little fuzzy who had the original idea, but it was 2000 years ago, so that's unsurprising. the notion of a religious movement arising out of claimed revelations has been observed occurring. the only hoop, if there is one, is to suggest that not only are the implausible parts of the gospels fabricated, but so are many of the superficially plausible parts |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 12:11 PM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit "implausible" in the sense that I think they would be just as unlikely to be invented as they would be to have been actually said by Him in the first place. Like the person or people you're claiming had this "revelation" would have to have been batshit insane, both for coming up with such bizarre content but more especially for telling other people about it in such a dangerous climate. So for me, the sheer insanity of it actually leads me more in the direction of believing He said those things. Again, this is evident in the details of the Gospels aside from things Jesus said/did, like the prominence of women in the stories, as I mentioned elsewhere ITT. It's just too out of character for some random ex-Jew to make up. Okay, if you wanna make the "it was so long ago" argument, consider Buddhism. Virtually everyone accepts Buddha was a real guy, and that it was his revelatory preaching that started Buddhism as a religion. Many early Buddhist texts ascribe physical miracles to him, which you could discount as legends, but you'd still accept it was him who started it all. Why do you think the story of Jesus would be any different? Why this mystery man of whom there is no documentation? Some illiterate Jew who ran and told Peter, who ran and told Paul, and all of a sudden, there's a whole movement of people who believe the true source is a man of their time and place, but who never actually existed? You don't see how that's jumping through hoops? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:25 AM Author: Provocative Liquid Oxygen How would Paul know one way or the other? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654297) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:16 PM Author: Pontificating Pisswyrm Knife (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655430) |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 2:59 PM Author: ebony lascivious people who are hurt site (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468406) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: Ruddy Razzmatazz Corn Cake whoever first told the story of Jesus to the masses probably had a actual guy in mind but obviously the facts were embellished (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654275) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 2:39 PM Author: Provocative Liquid Oxygen The earliest gospels were written 50+ years after Jesus died, with no existing text that we know of to work from. Scholars suspect they were based on oral traditions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36656101) |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 3:12 PM Author: titillating piazza legal warrant They worked from "Q" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468453) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:22 AM Author: turquoise haunting dilemma I think he did exist. I think he was a charismatic preacher who got got. I think they invented out of whole cloth the miracles and resurrection decades after he died. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654279) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:26 AM Author: Provocative Liquid Oxygen He was mostly likely an apocalyptic preacher who told people to give up all their wealth because judgment day was coming soon. When he died and there was no apocalypse, his ratfuck followers began spinning. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654309) |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 2:49 PM Author: yellow yarmulke ticket booth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468376) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:28 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit okay good, we can agree he was a real dude if you accept that, now you have to deal with the Liar, Lunatic, Lord argument. Based solely on his own words as described in the gospels, you cannot argue that he was just some smart and charismatic guy with nice things to say, nor can you argue that he was some Mohammed-like prophet exploiting his claims for political gain, since he rejected all the political ambitions that his followers tried to associate him with. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:38 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter the "Trilemma" is bullshit
A frequent criticism is that Lewis's trilemma depends on the veracity of the scriptural accounts of Jesus's statements and actions. This omits the possibility of those accounts instead being an invention of the early Christian movement, seeking to glorify Jesus.[26] The trilemma rests on the interpretation of New Testament authors' depiction of Jesus: a widespread objection is that the statements by Jesus recorded in the Gospels are being misinterpreted, and do not constitute claims to divinity.[27]
According to Bart D. Ehrman, "there could be a fourth option — legend".[28] According to Ehrman, it is historically inaccurate that Jesus called himself God, so Lewis's premise of accepting that very claim is problematic. N. T. Wright, a leading New Testament scholar, has commented that Lewis's argument, based on a simplistic understanding of incarnation in Judaism, "doesn't work as history, and it backfires dangerously when historical critics question his reading of the Gospels."[29]
Another criticism raised is that Lewis is creating a false trilemma by insisting that only three options are possible.[36] Philosopher John Beversluis comments that "he deprives his readers of numerous alternate interpretations of Jesus that carry with them no such odious implications".[37] For example, it is logically possible for Jesus's claims (if any) as to his divinity to have been merely good-faith mistakes resulting from his sincere efforts at reasoning, as well as for Jesus to have been deluded with respect to the specific issue of his divinity vel non while his faculties of moral reasoning remained intact. Philosopher and theologian William Lane Craig cites this as a reason why he believes it is an unsound argument for Christianity. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:40 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit okay so the Gospels specifically are elaborated legends now address my points above about the early church, which predate the gospels. All these people simultaneously believed these legends/claims to divinity before they were ever formally written down? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:43 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654214 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654403) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:00 AM Author: Translucent Chapel Fortuitous Meteor At that point you get to fundamental religious arguments surrounding the nature of Jesus and such. No one is going to prove that Jesus was the son of God sent to earth to die for our sins. That becomes a matter of faith. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654483) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:01 AM Author: violet aphrodisiac box office Yeah, there's no way he could have tricked ancient goat herders into thinking he was magical, it's far more likely he really WAS magical! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654489) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit if it was all a "trick," then you've decided you're going with the Liar argument, in which case, you have to at least admit that he was the single greatest, most successful psychopath in all of human history (and was willing to be crucified to keep up the charade) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654502) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:11 AM Author: violet aphrodisiac box office To this day, there are cult leaders who do crazy shit and deceive thousands of followers into thinking they're divine. It was easier to trick people back then. The Roman Emperors were supposedly divine too, as were various other figures who claimed divinity. It's all utterly unverifiable barring time travel.
"Willing to be crucified to keep up the charade" depends on the veracity of the gospels-- did he actually have the option of repudiating to not be crucified or were the Roman authorities going to crucify him no matter what? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:19 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit "It was easier to trick people back then" actually, it's exactly the opposite. You assume that because they were dumber, they would more easily believe a cult-leader-like psychopath literally claiming to be God. In fact, because they were dumber, they already believed strongly in other things, and everything around them was constricting their beliefs as such. Imagine if one of these modern cult leaders you're referring to was airdropped into the Middle East right now and had to successfully convince thousands of devout Muslims that he's divine. How well do you think that would go? |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:26 AM Author: Sick Parlor Background Story why not Jesus as a Jewish preacher or self-appointed prophet who was legitimately into the isaiah stuff but who was later misunderstood?
To me that is probably what actually happened.
The whole trinity or living god stuff I think is extremely unlikely to have come out of his mouth (and the gospels are weird in how that stuff only comes up here and there). |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:34 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit not Jewish because He said and did many things, completely unrelated to Him being divine or not, that pissed the Jews the fuck off constantly (and therefore conspired to execute Him) during His actual life (so not just "misunderstood later") Based on His preaching alone (again, even disregarding claims of divinity), He didn't really follow in the footsteps of any prophet before Him. The stuff He was saying in His parables, Sermon on the Mount, etc. was all very revolutionary |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:58 AM Author: turquoise haunting dilemma He didn’t lie. The authors of the gospels just made all that shit up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654854) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:57 AM Author: turquoise haunting dilemma The gospels were written decades after his death. There is no reason to believe they are factually accurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654840) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 12:14 PM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit I've explained this several times ITT, but again, consider Acts/the early Church in general. The movement began well before the Gospels were written, so you have to account for the fact that lots of people believed in this guy before those stories were ever written down (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654965) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:33 AM Author: ungodly center masturbator What's this day of rest shit? What's this bullshit? I don't fuckin' care! It don't matter to Jesus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654344) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:37 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit the funniest part about that line is that it's essentially a modern "translation" of Jesus' actual reply to the Pharisees when they tried to pull some bullshit legalistic jiu jitsu on him, asking whether it's cool to work (pull an ox out of a ditch) on the Sabbath. He was like "wtf are you for real right now? why would it matter?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654363) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:28 AM Author: Sick Parlor Background Story why do the abrahamic religions have a sabbath? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654610) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:29 AM Author: racy striped hyena Bc on the seventh day Gd rested. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654623) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:30 AM Author: Sick Parlor Background Story isn't it just like "contemplate God and be thankful" day?
i'm saying why would Jesus not appreciate that part of it. |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 3:17 PM Author: titillating piazza legal warrant because he knew genesis was parable -- it's meaningless for god to "rest" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468476) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:45 AM Author: adventurous foreskin I don't find the evidence all that compelling.
Poasting so I can find this later for scholarship. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:48 AM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter there's no scholarship here tbh just retards scuffling. have a good day. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654435) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:19 PM Author: adventurous foreskin I don't really see anything here I haven't seen before. At the end of the day it shouldn't matter much unless it's clear he didn't exist. Believers gotta believe on faith (which I've always found odd insofar as I don't find beliefs to be within the realm of free will. I can't choose to believe in stuff, it seems much less in my control than anything.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655450) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:47 AM Author: pearl theater if jesus is real in your heart, then he is real, you sinners. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654432) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:48 AM Author: Boyish faggotry hissy fit (thulpa advocate) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654441) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:52 AM Author: comical toaster this is a campaign by libs to move the Overton window (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654456) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:53 AM Author: flesh contagious brunch queen of the night There were dozens just like him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654459) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:07 AM Author: Spruce Orchestra Pit MOre likely than not. It's much much easier to have some of the details be based on a real person than just create it out of thin air, and there are some things in the synoptic gospels that they forcememed so that he'd fit in nicely w/ the prophesies about the messiah.
No need to create convoluted shit like that |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:29 AM Author: Sick Parlor Background Story There's also the possibility he was a composite.
Yeah remember that guy grandpa talked about who healed the sick people. That was probably Jesus too! |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:38 AM Author: Spruce Orchestra Pit I think there's enough to say there was a Jewish dooder born in Nazareth who got baptized by the sect of this weird dood John the Baptist, who went around and preached in Judea in the 1st c. AD and pissed off some people and got crucified.
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:44 PM Author: hairraiser electric furnace Bethlehem, you pagan (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655670) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:13 AM Author: Honey-headed Range Pistol yeah (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654532) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:40 AM Author: Slate library psychic What’s the overlap between people who answer “No,” and those that hate Joel Osteen? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654703) |
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Date: August 31st, 2018 12:46 AM Author: Laughsome lime stage old irish cottage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36719872) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:45 AM Author: stubborn fishy blood rage Yes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654746) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:05 PM Author: fighting partner sandwich Here is the best scholarship:
TLDR probably no. |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:17 PM Author: kink-friendly curious doctorate market Yes and I always lol at atheists who keep trying to "prove" otherwise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655434) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 1:46 PM Author: out-of-control confused cruise ship Yes, he cut my parents lawn. Worked for Jose (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36655686) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 2:40 PM Author: Hot trailer park (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36656112) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 2:42 PM Author: Deep sooty keepsake machete generalized bond (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36656130) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 2:45 PM Author: Deep sooty keepsake machete generalized bond There was a jesus who was a bit of a playboy and was hanged for sorcery. that was a few years before the alleged mythological jesus but it would fit in well with the John Frum hypothesis that seems to make sense.
Keep in mind that a lot of early documentation--anything OPPOSED to the existence of jesus--would have been expurgated fairly early on.
You can see some interesting tension even in the catholic nicene creed about whether he was resurrected or not--"according to the Gospel"--why say "according to the Gospel" at all? |
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Date: August 31st, 2018 12:42 AM Author: Laughsome lime stage old irish cottage Yes you moron, jfc (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36719850) |
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Date: August 31st, 2018 1:00 AM Author: Sepia Parlour Halford Having witnessed a miracle, and feeling utter terror at the moment, I have no doubt that there are malevolent forces out there. The miracles are not the sticking point for me anymore.
Lord help us if the gods are evil. |
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Date: September 3rd, 2018 12:11 PM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter describe miracle (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36737017) |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 2:17 PM Author: Razzle hideous faggot firefighter (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468287) |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 2:32 PM Author: stimulating pervert So no one here actually has a compelling argument that Jesus ISN'T real (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468333) |
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Date: December 25th, 2018 2:38 PM Author: Erotic gas station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#37468350) |