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The history of Byzantium is sad. Just slow, painful retreat into Constantinople

Rome's history was her expansion Byzantium's history was he...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  09/24/18
Lasting a whole 1000 years after western rome fell was still...
vigorous offensive genital piercing potus
  09/24/18
...
Impertinent peach national security agency theatre
  09/24/18
For sure. But man it's a tragic story
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  09/24/18
They bounced back a few times. Never to their former glory ...
Milky doctorate associate
  09/24/18
Empire under Basil II was still the prime power in the medit...
high-end native
  09/24/18
The Nebraska football story
Floppy french parlor
  09/24/18
...
high-end native
  09/24/18
...
brindle site boiling water
  09/25/18
Probably the best located city in world history, particularl...
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
...
Maize wonderful round eye pit
  04/22/23
They kept the torch of civilization burning until the West w...
fragrant market
  09/24/18
...
Impertinent peach national security agency theatre
  09/24/18
...
Violent demanding location
  09/24/18
...
Idiotic Juggernaut Casino
  09/24/18
...
Diverse Nubile School Cafeteria Candlestick Maker
  04/22/23
In schools today kids aren’t taught anything about Byz...
Transparent Piazza
  04/22/23
Why Constantine moved that far east is completely beyond me
Impertinent peach national security agency theatre
  09/24/18
That's where all the money was. It was genius and saved Chr...
Milky doctorate associate
  09/24/18
It was a small town before him - if it weren't for the fores...
high-end native
  09/24/18
I meant in terms of going that Far East. But yeah well done...
Milky doctorate associate
  09/24/18
West was seen as a festering TTT by then. All the wealth ...
high-end native
  09/24/18
cr scholarship here
Sticky Thriller Quadroon
  09/24/18
...
Idiotic Juggernaut Casino
  09/24/18
Roman history major here. This is pretty damn good.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
History major here took a bunch of Roman history in college
high-end native
  09/30/18
...
Diverse Nubile School Cafeteria Candlestick Maker
  04/22/23
The other realistic options were Antioch and Alexandria you’...
vigorous offensive genital piercing potus
  09/24/18
I mean you can't pick a more important and defensible locati...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  09/24/18
Yeah I get what you're saying
Impertinent peach national security agency theatre
  09/24/18
The walls of Constantinople might be the most important stru...
Milky doctorate associate
  09/24/18
The only strategic structure in medieval history, the only o...
high-end native
  09/24/18
It's always lulzy when some invader lays siege and immediate...
Milky doctorate associate
  09/24/18
So good that Heraclius was like "fuck it might as well ...
high-end native
  09/24/18
ljl at savages on horses even denting dem walls. Show it bi...
Milky doctorate associate
  09/24/18
180
Fiercely-loyal confused national
  09/24/18
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sieges_of_Constantinop...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Interesting point here. 180.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
Out of italy, MENA, and western europe, wasn't w. europe alw...
angry fantasy-prone lay
  09/24/18
"Europe" as a geopolitical entity really didn't em...
high-end native
  09/24/18
You're hearing a lot of good geostrategic answers, which are...
Outnumbered light new version abode
  09/25/18
Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit et artes intulit agresti ...
high-end native
  09/26/18
...
Outnumbered light new version abode
  09/27/18
It's somewhat close to the Francophilia of the Russian nobil...
high-end native
  09/27/18
It makes for an interesting historical counterfactual though...
Outnumbered light new version abode
  09/30/18
You see this today in America's obsession with Israel -- pow...
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
Interesting point.
Outnumbered light new version abode
  09/30/18
In a way, you could say the same for the Komnenian era/the C...
high-end native
  10/21/19
I really think there's something to the thesis developed in ...
naked hunting ground stage
  01/30/20
This is a deeply under appreciated subthread.
Maize wonderful round eye pit
  04/22/23
...
Maize wonderful round eye pit
  04/22/23
...
Maize wonderful round eye pit
  04/22/23
"more Chinese than the Chinese themselves" what...
angry fantasy-prone lay
  10/01/18
Before Manchus, before Qing. The numerous tribes that i...
high-end native
  12/10/18
Didn't the Greeks themselves believe Romans were descendants...
canary balding fortuitous meteor
  01/29/20
...
Maize wonderful round eye pit
  04/22/23
Retarded flame. They kept the Christendom safe from Musli...
high-end native
  09/24/18
They certainly had a couple moments but they were typically ...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  09/24/18
Bullshit - from 9th to 11th century they were on the offensi...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Crusades so, so embarrassing to read about now. What a waste...
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
I think you're overstating it. It was multiple periods of de...
ultramarine learning disabled state
  09/24/18
CR on Warren Treadgold. Been reading Anthony Kaldellis re...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Anything by Roger Crowley is unabashed 180, particularly his...
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
Flame, it's a deeply heroic story. Rome was clearly supposed...
Electric Corner Stain
  09/24/18
CR. So many moments where you'd think "oh this is when ...
high-end native
  09/24/18
...
Impertinent peach national security agency theatre
  09/24/18
It does beg an interesting question though. China also went ...
high-end native
  09/24/18
he jiu bi fen | fen jiu bi he
angry fantasy-prone lay
  09/24/18
Which is a post-facto revisionism of Chinese history. Th...
high-end native
  09/24/18
but it always came back together; the meme became self-aware...
angry fantasy-prone lay
  09/24/18
Sure - after Sui. I'm not so sure the warlords from 4th-...
high-end native
  09/25/18
yeah I don't know a lot about the Han conquest of the Xiongn...
angry fantasy-prone lay
  09/25/18
Well I was specifically talking about the time period when t...
high-end native
  09/25/18
not sure but http://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2014/09/what...
angry fantasy-prone lay
  09/25/18
Lol funnily Edward LUttwak's writing on the Grand Strategy o...
high-end native
  09/25/18
180
razzle-dazzle field
  09/24/18
i am now a Byzantium after reading this inspiring ass shit i...
Histrionic Clear Public Bath Police Squad
  09/24/18
Time to fire up CK2 and reconquer the Levant with Basil I
high-end native
  09/24/18
Really looking forward to the upcoming DLC. Might be the las...
ultramarine learning disabled state
  09/24/18
Pet peeve is when I play as Alexios Komnenos and the Pope de...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Lol opened new eu iv game bc of this thread ty
Fiercely-loyal confused national
  09/24/18
4th crusade was ahuge blunder
razzle address hissy fit
  09/24/18
This. Unforced error on the largest of scales.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
their truly fatal error was fucking around depleting themsel...
Mildly autistic orchestra pit
  09/24/18
This thread is 180 and my knowledge of this stuff is sps. Wh...
yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles
  09/24/18
Play EUIV as the Ottomans and read all of the historical ref...
Violent demanding location
  09/24/18
What is that?
yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles
  09/24/18
Too late by that point. I recommend CK2 if you really want ...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Is that a game?
yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles
  09/24/18
Although not a SCHOLAR per se, John Julius Norwich's History...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Roger Crowley FTW. Consistently interesting.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
Begin here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0092TEB14/ref...
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
Bookmarked
spruce stead
  04/22/23
Third Rome, bitches. So long as a Russian Czar reigns in Mos...
translucent gaming laptop
  09/24/18
The Third Rome forcememe is the saddest thing the Russians h...
high-end native
  09/24/18
Considering that their refusal to help Byzantium is why it f...
translucent gaming laptop
  09/24/18
First time I've seen you actually take an L on what Russians...
high-end native
  09/25/18
Pls explain. Sincerely, I'm not aware of this.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
...
Diverse Nubile School Cafeteria Candlestick Maker
  04/22/23
OP better be an empire that has lasted for 2,000 years or el...
swollen titillating reading party
  09/24/18
...
high-end native
  09/25/18
Technically Byzantium still exists. There’s that one Greek I...
translucent gaming laptop
  09/24/18
Mykonos
yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles
  09/24/18
you mean the Mt. Athos peninsula? no women are allowed ther...
Mildly autistic orchestra pit
  09/24/18
This place sounds 180. Supposedly they have all sorts of By...
vigorous offensive genital piercing potus
  09/25/18
A lot of the "Greeks" considered themselves as Rom...
high-end native
  10/21/19
this thread has taught me that XO's single greatest area of ...
sick indirect expression immigrant
  09/24/18
second only to nude bodybuilding!
beta nowag ceo
  09/24/18
Western history in general
Violent demanding location
  09/25/18
cr you get the same 5 idiots rambling about metaphysics ever...
Impertinent peach national security agency theatre
  09/25/18
Possibly true. Read "History of Civilization" by t...
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
...
canary balding fortuitous meteor
  01/30/20
Who were the Eastern Romans ethnically? Was it a few Romans ...
deranged therapy dog poop
  09/30/18
...
pink stimulating jew
  09/30/18
good question honiara what ethnicity were the people in Gree...
buff factory reset button
  09/30/18
Romanized elites from across the empire. Justinian was of pe...
Electric Corner Stain
  09/30/18
Among the elites there definitely also was a lot of people w...
high-end native
  09/30/18
What language did the ruling class speak?
deranged therapy dog poop
  09/30/18
In the military they Spoke Latin well into the 7th century i...
high-end native
  09/30/18
Justinian is probably the last emperor whose first language ...
Electric Corner Stain
  10/01/18
They were white, if that's what you are asking.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
180 thread. 4th crusade shit is sad as fuck. however, doesn'...
narrow-minded cumskin
  09/30/18
"Lead" is debatable, but possibly so.
very tactful stage
  09/30/18
juden getting booted from Spain kicked it off
silver flirting plaza
  04/24/23
ITT: massive assburgers
glittery startled station
  09/30/18
(Monophysite)
Electric Corner Stain
  09/30/18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq3bJAyZqMI im well aware...
glittery startled station
  09/30/18
it's 180
silver flirting plaza
  04/22/23
...
slap-happy french chef
  04/22/23
...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  07/26/19
...
Lascivious harsh tanning salon mental disorder
  01/29/20
...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  06/07/20
...
Lascivious harsh tanning salon mental disorder
  04/22/23
...
silver flirting plaza
  04/22/23
This was my OP
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  04/22/23
reading about the fall and decline of the empire literally m...
slap-happy french chef
  04/22/23
if heraclius were an xo poaster he would've been an "a...
Appetizing House
  04/22/23
Heraclius by any rights should be as well known as Caesar or...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  04/22/23
...
vibrant territorial shrine
  04/22/23
What a great thread
vigorous offensive genital piercing potus
  04/22/23
Cr
spruce stead
  04/22/23
I am traveling to Constantinople this summer primarily due t...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  04/22/23
Jealous brother . Always wanted to go. Shame the Hagia Soph...
vibrant territorial shrine
  04/22/23
One day the minarets will come down, brother
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  04/22/23
Until the Hagia Sophia is free of minarets, the men of Europ...
Misunderstood citrine sanctuary
  04/22/23
lol at expecting Latins or Germans to care about schismatic ...
Nudist Dashing Striped Hyena
  04/22/23


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:47 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

Rome's history was her expansion

Byzantium's history was her dismemberment by the Muslims

=(

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879250)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:48 PM
Author: vigorous offensive genital piercing potus

Lasting a whole 1000 years after western rome fell was still a huge accomplishment and kind of a miracle given the odds and all sorts of enemies they faced.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879259)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:49 PM
Author: Impertinent peach national security agency theatre



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879264)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:50 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

For sure. But man it's a tragic story

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879272)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:51 PM
Author: Milky doctorate associate

They bounced back a few times. Never to their former glory but still the preeminent people on earth

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879284)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:53 PM
Author: high-end native

Empire under Basil II was still the prime power in the mediterranean

Economically they were at their heights under the Komnenos iirc - when London was just a town of 20K, when Paris was barely a city Constantinople housed like 400K

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879300)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 5:03 PM
Author: Floppy french parlor

The Nebraska football story

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879370)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:52 PM
Author: high-end native



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879291)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 25th, 2018 11:28 AM
Author: brindle site boiling water



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36884327)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 30th, 2018 3:18 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Probably the best located city in world history, particularly relative to weaponry at the time.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927479)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:34 PM
Author: Maize wonderful round eye pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225712)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:48 PM
Author: fragrant market

They kept the torch of civilization burning until the West was ready to take it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879258)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:49 PM
Author: Impertinent peach national security agency theatre



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879263)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 6:40 PM
Author: Violent demanding location



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879867)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 9:50 PM
Author: Idiotic Juggernaut Casino



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881283)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:23 AM
Author: Diverse Nubile School Cafeteria Candlestick Maker



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224274)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 22nd, 2023 4:43 PM
Author: Transparent Piazza

In schools today kids aren’t taught anything about Byzantium. They’re taught that Muslims in Arabia and North Africa preserved all of the knowledge of the ancient world and that we wouldn’t have any knowledge of Aristotle, Plato, etc., if not for the Muslims.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225944)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:48 PM
Author: Impertinent peach national security agency theatre

Why Constantine moved that far east is completely beyond me

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879260)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:50 PM
Author: Milky doctorate associate

That's where all the money was. It was genius and saved Christendom

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879273)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:56 PM
Author: high-end native

It was a small town before him - if it weren't for the foresight of Constantine most others would've just built the palace at Nicomedia like others have done

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879327)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:59 PM
Author: Milky doctorate associate

I meant in terms of going that Far East. But yeah well done all around

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879342)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 5:04 PM
Author: high-end native

West was seen as a festering TTT by then.

All the wealth from the East was being used to defend the West at the time, especially as the border farmlands became barren and unused by the 4th century

Rome itself did not have an emperor since the 3rd century b/c it was just a terrible location for post 3rd century crises emperors, who were basically all Illyrian soldiers.

It was a natural progression of what had been going on for over a century by that point - Emperors were increasingly stationed in the frontlines, and to make it easier, Diocletian just made official what had been happening, creating multiple "emperors" that'd take care of a given region of the empire.

Before Constantine, during the Tetrarchy, Constantius (Constantine's father) ruled from Trier.

Diocletian (the "senior" emperor) ruled from Nicomedia (right across the Bosphorus from what would later be Constantinople).

Galerius ruled from Sirmium (his territory was the most idiosyncratic actually - normally when the empire had different emperors they usually divided it along the Balkans and have Greece be part of the Eastern front but Diocletian just put the most important line of defense that costs the most $$ for defense w/ 0 production - the Balkans - to Galerius and only gave him Greece and Thracia to work with)

Maximian, the Western Augustus ruled from Milan

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879371)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 6:16 PM
Author: Sticky Thriller Quadroon

cr scholarship here

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879743)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 9:51 PM
Author: Idiotic Juggernaut Casino



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881290)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 30th, 2018 4:32 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Roman history major here. This is pretty damn good.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927983)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 30th, 2018 8:30 PM
Author: high-end native

History major here took a bunch of Roman history in college

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929251)



Reply Favorite

Date: April 22nd, 2023 5:36 AM
Author: Diverse Nubile School Cafeteria Candlestick Maker



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224339)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:50 PM
Author: vigorous offensive genital piercing potus

The other realistic options were Antioch and Alexandria you’d think right? Would be some interesting alternate timelines.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879275)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:50 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

I mean you can't pick a more important and defensible location in the Mediterranean

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879276)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:51 PM
Author: Impertinent peach national security agency theatre

Yeah I get what you're saying

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879285)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:52 PM
Author: Milky doctorate associate

The walls of Constantinople might be the most important structure ever erected by humanity

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879294)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:56 PM
Author: high-end native

The only strategic structure in medieval history, the only one to be so good that the empire's foreign policy depended on its walls

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879323)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:57 PM
Author: Milky doctorate associate

It's always lulzy when some invader lays siege and immediately realizes they're fucked. Must have been a peak experience

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879333)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:58 PM
Author: high-end native

So good that Heraclius was like "fuck it might as well use our reserves to actually INVADE the Persians while the capital is besieged on all sides by Luis and Avars"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879340)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 5:00 PM
Author: Milky doctorate associate

ljl at savages on horses even denting dem walls. Show it big, KNOW it's big

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879352)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 6:09 PM
Author: Fiercely-loyal confused national

180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879703)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 4:59 PM
Author: high-end native

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sieges_of_Constantinople

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879343)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 30th, 2018 4:33 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Interesting point here. 180.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927987)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 6:42 PM
Author: angry fantasy-prone lay

Out of italy, MENA, and western europe, wasn't w. europe always the lesser part of the roman empire, with britain being the shittiest, least desirable part?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879878)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 24th, 2018 6:46 PM
Author: high-end native

"Europe" as a geopolitical entity really didn't emerge until the fall of Rome if you think about it.

THere was a distinct Mediterranean civilization - until the Mediterranean became a border, not Mare NOstrum.

You probably felt like you were in the same civilization going from Rome to Carthage.

Can't say the same for Rome to....whatever Forest druidshit they were doing up in Berlin at the time.

Grain supply from Alexandria fed the proles of Rome, and Antioch/Alexandria were the richest areas of the Empire.

Britain was a festering TTT in decline, and especially after the 3rd century, a lot of the farmlands by the Rhine and the Danube frontier in the Western provinces were abandoned from the constant invasions.

In essense the wealth from the East basically paid for the defense in the West by the 5th century - which is why the West on its own just simply could not hold on while the East could pay off the Huns with massive amts of gold

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879901)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 25th, 2018 6:40 PM
Author: Outnumbered light new version abode

You're hearing a lot of good geostrategic answers, which are 100% valid, but you also need to consider the cultural overlay. Constantine was embracing a tradition of Roman elite fascination with the peregrine east (both their "near frontier"--"Graecia"--and the "far frontier"--"Asia" and elsewehere) dating back for centuries; and it's a tradition that also had, as a part of it, an intersection with military and civic decisionmaking (think about the conduct of figures like Antony and Pompey before him, or Caesar for that matter). It's one of the more fascinating aspects of Roman elite culture and something classicists have spent a lot of time thinking about, without coming to a definitive answer. The permanent movement of the capital was in a way a culmination of those centuries of cultural pressure toward the eastern borders of empire.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36887851)



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Date: September 26th, 2018 9:57 AM
Author: high-end native

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit et artes intulit agresti Latio

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36891372)



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Date: September 27th, 2018 4:31 PM
Author: Outnumbered light new version abode



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36905325)



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Date: September 27th, 2018 4:46 PM
Author: high-end native

It's somewhat close to the Francophilia of the Russian nobility or the way that rich Americans looked to Britain in the 19th c.

The difference of course being that the Romans actually conquered Greece.

Maybe somewhat relevant is the Nomadic tribes that conquered china becoming "more Chinese than the Chinese themselves"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36905548)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 1:44 PM
Author: Outnumbered light new version abode

It makes for an interesting historical counterfactual thought experiment--how much did this cultural facet of the Roman people affect their grand strategy? What if they'd simply evolved to be more chauvanistic? Would, for example, there have been more attention paid to the possibility of expansion in northern europe, which had been dismissed as valueless, partially because of their observation on the level of available resources, but also almost definitely because there was a sort of "why bother" attitude (this comes out in Tacitus). Rome is a good case study for comparative politics here because, to your point, often when you're dealing with an elite / policy-selecting portion of a society beset by a fascination for some other culture, they're not also engaging in significant geopolitics. So you don't get to see the effects of that cultural impression in action on statecraft. In Rome, we did (if we accept the thesis).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927009)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 4:40 PM
Author: very tactful stage

You see this today in America's obsession with Israel -- power, faith, and fantasy, to use Oren's blurb.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928027)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 9:01 PM
Author: Outnumbered light new version abode

Interesting point.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929410)



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Date: October 21st, 2019 7:05 PM
Author: high-end native

In a way, you could say the same for the Komnenian era/the Crusades for the Byzantines.

Instead of focusing on the Anatolian heartlands, the Komnenian emperors- Alexios, Ioannes & Manuel - focused on re-capturing the Holy Land & Europe (especially Sicily & Italy although it failed bigtime) rather than try to shorten the line of defense by re-capturing the Anatolian heartlands that was the basis for the Theme system that was the core of the Byzantine army during the Macedonian era.

The result was that although the Empire recovered from the fallout from Manzikert in a short time, it would never have the defensive position it held at the time of Basil II and had virtually little defense for the coastal towns that prospered under the Komnenian restoration

(Byzantium when Alexios I came to power:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Byzantiumforecrusades.jpg)

(Byzantium after Manuel's reign - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Byzantium_in_1170%283%29.PNG) - you could see that although they managed to recapture a lot of the more important towns, the jutting mass of Turkic Rum Sultanate in the middle of Anatolia was to pose a huge military problem for the empire.

Why? Because of the cultural hold that both Antioch and Jerusalem had for CHristendom

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#39009245)



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Date: January 30th, 2020 12:58 AM
Author: naked hunting ground stage

I really think there's something to the thesis developed in the exchange above. Probably a monograph out of it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#39512005)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:38 PM
Author: Maize wonderful round eye pit

This is a deeply under appreciated subthread.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225723)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:39 PM
Author: Maize wonderful round eye pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225729)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:38 PM
Author: Maize wonderful round eye pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225722)



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Date: October 1st, 2018 12:34 AM
Author: angry fantasy-prone lay

"more Chinese than the Chinese themselves"

what does this refer to? polite fictional characteristics attributed only to the royals of the manchu qing dynasty? to my knowledge it was NOT claimed by, or of, any of the other steppe dynasties

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36930800)



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Date: December 10th, 2018 5:44 PM
Author: high-end native

Before Manchus, before Qing.

The numerous tribes that invaded during the 4th century that now cease to exist, especially the Northern Dynasties.

Especially the Tang

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#37384669)



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Date: January 29th, 2020 11:50 PM
Author: canary balding fortuitous meteor

Didn't the Greeks themselves believe Romans were descendants of fleeing Trojans?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#39511787)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:38 PM
Author: Maize wonderful round eye pit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225725)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 4:51 PM
Author: high-end native

Retarded flame.

They kept the Christendom safe from Muslims.

Without victory in Constantinople in 717 Europe was DONEHERE

Also Basil II, Ioannes Tsmiskes and Nikephoros II Phokas ("The White Death of Saracens") were pretty 180.

They even at one point retook Antioch, and even invaded Egypt under Manuel I Komnenos

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879287)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 4:52 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

They certainly had a couple moments but they were typically on defense

Like Tolkien's Elves vs. the Orcish onslaught

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879296)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 4:55 PM
Author: high-end native

Bullshit - from 9th to 11th century they were on the offensive

What really ended it was the 4th Crusade.

From the Macedonian Dynasty until Battle of Manzikert was the 1st resurgence after the rise of Islam, and its 2nd resurgence was under the Komnenos.

Too bad Manuel died without a real heir - if he'd won at Myriokephalon history would be a lot different

And if you think about it Rome itself was on the defensive since... Augustus really (ok after Trajan)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879312)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 4:44 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Crusades so, so embarrassing to read about now. What a waste.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928053)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:00 PM
Author: ultramarine learning disabled state

I think you're overstating it. It was multiple periods of decline and expansion.

They reconquered much of the West under Justinian, lost a ton of territory to the Muslims and Bulgarians then regained it under the Macedonian emperors, lost Anatolia to the Turks then regained much of it under the Komnenoi. The dagger that made any real recovery hopeless was the Fourth Crusade. Before that they were still a great power or at times the strongest power in Europe/the ME.

There's a ton of cool history with them too. Their interactions with the barbarian empires that would be come modern Western Europe are fascinating. The story of Heraclius insane comeback against the Persians is cool as fuck. Anything involving Alexios is great. Like the rarely talked about wars against invading Norman conquerors and how those same people would eventually pass through Constantinople on the way to the First Crusade).

History of Byzantine State and Society by Warren Treadgold is a good book. It goes emperor by emperor discussing politics, society, day to day life, military campaigns etc. He's on the Byzophile side of things relative to most Byz scholars, so he puffs them up a bit. But it's a good book.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879355)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:05 PM
Author: high-end native

CR on Warren Treadgold.

Been reading Anthony Kaldellis recently actually

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879377)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 4:48 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Anything by Roger Crowley is unabashed 180, particularly his history of the siege of Constantinople.

Do check it out.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928079)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:39 PM
Author: Electric Corner Stain

Flame, it's a deeply heroic story. Rome was clearly supposed to fall in the early 600s. The West was already lost. The plague gutted their economy and population. Their borders were constantly penetrated by one tribe or another. Then in the early 600s there were several civil wars, paired with a massive Persian invasion that gobbled up Syria and Egypt, the two best provinces. Italy was deadweight, blown out from decades of war and menaced constantly by Lombards. The empire had one field army left. It would be entirely predictable for them to die off entirely.

But instead, Heraclius turned the tide, came back, and after decades of war, decisively crushed the Sassanid Empire. Things promptly fell back into decline, but that's beside the point. For a thousand years, the tides of history ordained that Byzantium would be swept aside, forever, but they battled back over and over again, going down in a blaze of glory in the process. The Muslims conquered for thousands of miles in every direction, sweeping up Africa, Spain, Persia, Central Asia, half of India...but for 800 years, Byzantium plugged them from entering Eastern Europe. Slavic hordes swarmed across the Danube, but could never go the last ten yards and conquer Thrace. They suffered a catastrophic defeat at Manzikert, but battled back for 150 years and undid virtually all the damage, until the 4th Crusade sacked their capital. And they STILL came back from that, got back the capital, and limped on for another TWO HUNDRED FIFTY years, longer than the US has existed, before finally actually falling.

That's inspiring, imo.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879515)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:43 PM
Author: high-end native

CR. So many moments where you'd think "oh this is when they fall"

But they come back from all that.

Now imagine being Heraclius though, and you bring back the True Cross to Jerusalem, revive the Empire after that long war w/ teh Sassanids when Rome really should've fallen then.

Then you see Khalid ibn al Walid lead his army into Yarmouk....

The feeling of loss and hopelessness after losing the Levant/Egypt must've been some next level shit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879540)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:43 PM
Author: Impertinent peach national security agency theatre



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879544)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 6:39 PM
Author: high-end native

It does beg an interesting question though. China also went through a similar dismemberment of an old empire by hordes of nomads, and the Empire had to move east to a different capital surrounded by water to hold on while its older cultural heartlands were now swarmed by barbarians.

Yet China after 3 centuries of warfare managed to reunite, while Byzantines never reconquered the Levant, Egypt, NA and Gaul/Spain.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879858)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 6:45 PM
Author: angry fantasy-prone lay

he jiu bi fen | fen jiu bi he

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879895)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 6:48 PM
Author: high-end native

Which is a post-facto revisionism of Chinese history.

They think this is a natural progression - but why? There certainly were points of diversion when there could've been distinct civilizations w/ one centered around the Yangtze vs one up in Huabei



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879920)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:57 PM
Author: angry fantasy-prone lay

but it always came back together; the meme became self-aware, self-consciously replicating.

literally forever henceforth the major warlords of any given chinese era will be thinking about unification, and any leader of a unified china, about the empire splitting up. derrida!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881320)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 9:56 AM
Author: high-end native

Sure - after Sui.

I'm not so sure the warlords from 4th-6th centuries necessarily felt that way, especially early on as these nomads had a different character in dealing w/ the Hans as did later nomadic invasions did (although there's been some SCHOLARSHIP done on this with the whole Sino-Barbarian Synthesis thing).



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36883755)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 4:19 PM
Author: angry fantasy-prone lay

yeah I don't know a lot about the Han conquest of the Xiongnu (which seems to have been quite the multigenerational epic, per T. Greer/Scholar's Stage), my account is from FW Mote and he starts the story with the Khitan Liao dynasty. Everything about steppe-Han policy since then has been a relitigation of the Khitans'/Jurchens' dilemma (which can be generalized to Ibn Khaldun's notion of asabiyah http://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2015/05/introducing-asabiyah.html )

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36886749)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 4:32 PM
Author: high-end native

Well I was specifically talking about the time period when the Jin collapsed right after they finally ended the 3 Kingdoms Era.

A century before the Western Roman Empire fell, Jin also collapsed in a similar manner, and like 5 different states were set up in the northern plains while the Jin dynasty moved east to what is now Nanjing and only held the Yangtze River area + Jingzhou while the nomads took every land up north

These nomads had little experience ruling Han people, and were quite different in character from later dynasties like Liao - most didn't even use the title Emperor (huangdi) but used "Celestial King" (tian-wang).

These kingdoms you could probably compared to the Germano-Roman kingdoms like Visigothic Kingdom in Iberia, Vandal Africa, Ostrogothic Italy (Theodoric could probably be compared to Shi Le) and the Frankish Kingdom - barbarian leaders, native bureaucracy creating a hybrid culture.

Remember that after Han fell, China had multiple kingdoms for ~340 years if you take out the 30 years of unified Jin. Certainly enough time for an entirely new political tradition to form

Yet china still reunited. Why?



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36886856)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 6:34 PM
Author: angry fantasy-prone lay

not sure but http://scholars-stage.blogspot.com/2014/09/what-edward-luttwak-doesnt-know-about_6.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36887805)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 6:45 PM
Author: high-end native

Lol funnily Edward LUttwak's writing on the Grand Strategy of Byzantine Empire is actually a decent read.

Will read some of it but my main crux of argumet isn't about Han-xiongnu, it's basically about post-Han - xianbei/di/qiang etc relations

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36887872)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:12 PM
Author: razzle-dazzle field

180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881459)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:56 PM
Author: Histrionic Clear Public Bath Police Squad

i am now a Byzantium after reading this inspiring ass shit in this thread

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879625)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 5:56 PM
Author: high-end native

Time to fire up CK2 and reconquer the Levant with Basil I

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879632)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 6:02 PM
Author: ultramarine learning disabled state

Really looking forward to the upcoming DLC. Might be the last one and it looks amazing. Actually pretty absurd how they've never revamped the crusade system after all of these years.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879668)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 6:37 PM
Author: high-end native

Pet peeve is when I play as Alexios Komnenos and the Pope declares a crusade on Greece, taking away what should be my core territories in Asia Minor.

Really get the whole situation when Crusaders showed up as Alexios had to double time them to ensure that they were reconquering Byzantine lands, not carving new fiefdoms

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879846)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 6:11 PM
Author: Fiercely-loyal confused national

Lol opened new eu iv game bc of this thread ty

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36879706)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:01 PM
Author: razzle address hissy fit

4th crusade was ahuge blunder

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36880919)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:07 PM
Author: very tactful stage

This. Unforced error on the largest of scales.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928179)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:07 PM
Author: Mildly autistic orchestra pit

their truly fatal error was fucking around depleting themselves and the sassanids in a series of destructive and pointless wars while the army of mohammed was rampaging to their south.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36880954)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:44 PM
Author: yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles

This thread is 180 and my knowledge of this stuff is sps. What is the credited book?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881245)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:45 PM
Author: Violent demanding location

Play EUIV as the Ottomans and read all of the historical references.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881253)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:49 PM
Author: yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles

What is that?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881277)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:50 PM
Author: high-end native

Too late by that point.

I recommend CK2 if you really want to know more about the byzantines

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881281)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:54 PM
Author: yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles

Is that a game?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881303)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:49 PM
Author: high-end native

Although not a SCHOLAR per se, John Julius Norwich's History of Byzantium is a good place to start.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881279)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:08 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Roger Crowley FTW. Consistently interesting.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928192)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:08 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Begin here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0092TEB14/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i3

If you like it, go deeper.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928187)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 1:57 PM
Author: spruce stead

Bookmarked

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225406)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:53 PM
Author: translucent gaming laptop

Third Rome, bitches. So long as a Russian Czar reigns in Moscow the fire will not die.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881296)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:10 PM
Author: high-end native

The Third Rome forcememe is the saddest thing the Russians have ever pulled

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881432)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:11 PM
Author: translucent gaming laptop

Considering that their refusal to help Byzantium is why it fell...yeah.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881445)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 9:51 AM
Author: high-end native

First time I've seen you actually take an L on what Russians did 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36883731)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:09 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Pls explain. Sincerely, I'm not aware of this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928196)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:24 AM
Author: Diverse Nubile School Cafeteria Candlestick Maker



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224277)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:54 PM
Author: swollen titillating reading party

OP better be an empire that has lasted for 2,000 years or else he should STFU

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881297)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 9:51 AM
Author: high-end native



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36883734)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 9:57 PM
Author: translucent gaming laptop

Technically Byzantium still exists. There’s that one Greek Island filled with monks where the Byzantine flag has been flying continuously all this time. Those fuckers still won’t bend the knee to Greece. Fuck is it called?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881319)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:01 PM
Author: yellow bawdyhouse fat ankles

Mykonos

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881355)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:03 PM
Author: Mildly autistic orchestra pit

you mean the Mt. Athos peninsula? no women are allowed there, either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881364)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 9:54 AM
Author: vigorous offensive genital piercing potus

This place sounds 180. Supposedly they have all sorts of Byzantine artifacts and documents that they rarely let anyone see.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36883751)



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Date: October 21st, 2019 7:10 PM
Author: high-end native

A lot of the "Greeks" considered themselves as Romans until the 20th century.

"On 8 October 1912, during the First Balkan War, Lemnos became part of Greece. The Greek navy under Rear Admiral Pavlos Kountouriotis took it over without any casualties from the occupying Turkish Ottoman garrison, who were returned to Anatolia.

Peter Charanis, born on the island in 1908 and later a professor of Byzantine history at Rutgers University recounts when the island was occupied and Greek soldiers were sent to the villages and stationed themselves in the public squares. Some of the children ran to see what Greek soldiers looked like.

‘‘What are you looking at?’’ one of them asked.

‘‘At Hellenes,’’ the children replied.

‘‘Are you not Hellenes yourselves?’’ a soldier retorted.

‘‘No, we are Romans.""



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#39009263)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:04 PM
Author: sick indirect expression immigrant

this thread has taught me that XO's single greatest area of expertise is the history of the roman empire

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881379)



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Date: September 24th, 2018 10:11 PM
Author: beta nowag ceo

second only to nude bodybuilding!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36881446)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 10:19 AM
Author: Violent demanding location

Western history in general

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36883898)



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Date: September 25th, 2018 4:20 PM
Author: Impertinent peach national security agency theatre

cr you get the same 5 idiots rambling about metaphysics every other day then BAM you get this thread

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36886754)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:12 PM
Author: very tactful stage

Possibly true. Read "History of Civilization" by the Durants and get back to me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928209)



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Date: January 30th, 2020 12:53 AM
Author: canary balding fortuitous meteor



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#39511997)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 1:59 PM
Author: deranged therapy dog poop

Who were the Eastern Romans ethnically? Was it a few Romans lording over a mishmash of peoples?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927090)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 2:40 PM
Author: pink stimulating jew



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927345)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 2:42 PM
Author: buff factory reset button

good question honiara what ethnicity were the people in Greece. Hopefully a scholar can weigh in here.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36927357)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:10 PM
Author: Electric Corner Stain

Romanized elites from across the empire. Justinian was of peasant origins from Illyria. Heraclius was probably Armenian. Zeno was Isaurian. The core of the empire was ethnically Greek, though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928199)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 7:32 PM
Author: high-end native

Among the elites there definitely also was a lot of people with Armenian blood. The Armenian-Byzantine relations is always a bit underrated in the West in publoc consciousness

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929018)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 8:08 PM
Author: deranged therapy dog poop

What language did the ruling class speak?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929154)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 8:28 PM
Author: high-end native

In the military they Spoke Latin well into the 7th century iirc. Justinian primarily spoke Latin in public although probably with an Illyrian dialect. The elites did look down upon him somewhat for being unable to speak Latin.

A lot of it changed in the 7th century (really the shock of the Sassanid Wars and the Islamic Invasions in the 7th century gave a systemic shock to the empire. Essentially it ended the "city" in a legal sense in the empire, Athens was only a small town and people only libe by the Acropolis as they needed firm defenses, lots of the prominent Latin speaking elites in Constantinople, primarily from the era of Constantine himself, all but disappeared and was replaced by Greek speakers. Some Roman institutions remained like rhe consulship or the senate but its roles were diminished greatly or just were changed to Greek names. Augustus became Sebastokrator later in the 11th? 12th? Centuries. The provinces after the shock of Yarmouk qas reorganized into Themes- a self sufficient armies that basically was supposed to farm their lands and be self sufficient. Greek replaced the language- after around Heraclius, the title Imperator became Basileus. (althiugh recent scholarship has pointed to a more gradual process instead of attributing all the BIG CHANGES to Heraclius himself. Also note that Basileus had been used in the east to denote the emperor for centuries as well.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929244)



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Date: October 1st, 2018 1:19 AM
Author: Electric Corner Stain

Justinian is probably the last emperor whose first language was Latin and his famous civil code was written in Latin, but within a century Greek was the sole language of administration and that almost certainly reflected an even earlier dominance in day-to-day use.

Interestingly Latin's apex in the east was during the LATE Roman empire. During the Pax Romana Greek worked just fine as the lingua franca of the eastern empire, but one of Diocletian's reforms was an emphasis on the use of Latin throughout the empire, which is perhaps the only reason the eastern empire bothered to use it at all after Italy fell.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36930929)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:13 PM
Author: very tactful stage

They were white, if that's what you are asking.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928214)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 4:56 PM
Author: narrow-minded cumskin

180 thread. 4th crusade shit is sad as fuck. however, doesn't the failure lead to the age of exploration.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928124)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 5:13 PM
Author: very tactful stage

"Lead" is debatable, but possibly so.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36928218)



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Date: April 24th, 2023 12:21 AM
Author: silver flirting plaza

juden getting booted from Spain kicked it off

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46230493)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 8:26 PM
Author: glittery startled station

ITT: massive assburgers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929230)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 9:08 PM
Author: Electric Corner Stain

(Monophysite)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929476)



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Date: September 30th, 2018 9:10 PM
Author: glittery startled station

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq3bJAyZqMI

im well aware of the 180 exploits of the byzantine empire. but OP does have a point when he says its sad how they just slowly faded into nothingness

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#36929487)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:22 AM
Author: silver flirting plaza

it's 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224273)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 4:28 AM
Author: slap-happy french chef



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224300)



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Date: July 26th, 2019 2:01 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#38592562)



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Date: January 29th, 2020 11:24 PM
Author: Lascivious harsh tanning salon mental disorder



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#39511602)



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Date: June 7th, 2020 9:20 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#40373249)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 1:22 AM
Author: Lascivious harsh tanning salon mental disorder



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224108)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 1:25 AM
Author: silver flirting plaza



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224114)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 5:23 AM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

This was my OP

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224335)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 4:31 AM
Author: slap-happy french chef

reading about the fall and decline of the empire literally makes me weep

i.e. the things we gave up, for the trivialities that we're still stuck on to this day

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224303)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 5:16 AM
Author: Appetizing House

if heraclius were an xo poaster he would've been an "accelerationist" that bent the knee and just paid the jizya to get it over with, and christianity would've ended up about as relevant as zoroastrianism

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46224327)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 1:40 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

Heraclius by any rights should be as well known as Caesar or Alexander

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225343)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:17 PM
Author: vibrant territorial shrine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225661)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 1:46 PM
Author: vigorous offensive genital piercing potus

What a great thread

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225366)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 1:59 PM
Author: spruce stead

Cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225428)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 2:29 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

I am traveling to Constantinople this summer primarily due to this thread I started 4.5 years ago and the scholarship arising thereafter

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225543)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:18 PM
Author: vibrant territorial shrine

Jealous brother . Always wanted to go. Shame the Hagia Sophia is being used as a mosque though

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225664)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 3:23 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

One day the minarets will come down, brother

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225681)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 2:31 PM
Author: Misunderstood citrine sanctuary

Until the Hagia Sophia is free of minarets, the men of Europe are men in name only

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225554)



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Date: April 22nd, 2023 4:54 PM
Author: Nudist Dashing Striped Hyena

lol at expecting Latins or Germans to care about schismatic boy-lovers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4086319&forum_id=2#46225980)