Christianity would be 180 if real
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Date: January 17th, 2019 9:37 PM Author: Ivory heaven headpube
The Christian religion, throughout Chalcedon, Nicea, and other ecumenical councils and various synods of argumentative bishops, kept insisting on the dual nature of Jesus Christ. It would be theologically simpler if God were god and Jesus were man, just like another prophet, the way Islam views him, or the way Judaism views Abraham. But no, he had to be both man and god; the duality is so central it kept coming back though all manner of refinement: whether the duality allowed sharing the same substance (Orthodoxy), the same will (Monothelites), the same nature (Monophysites). The trinity is what caused other monotheists to see traces of polytheism in Christianity, and caused many Christians who fell into the hands of the Islamic State to be beheaded.
So it appears that the church founders really wanted Christ to have skin in the game; he did actually suffer on the cross, sacrifice himself, and experience death. He was a risk taker. More crucially to our story, he sacrificed himself for the sake of others. A god stripped of humanity cannot have skin in the game in such a manner, cannot really suffer (or, if he does, such a redefinition of a god injected with a human nature would back up our argument). A god who didn’t really suffer on the cross would be like a magician who performed an illusion, not someone who actually bled.
The Orthodox Church goes further, making the human side flow upward rather than downward. The fourth-century bishop Athanasius of Alexandria wrote: “Jesus Christ was incarnate so we could be made God”. It is the very human character of Jesus that can allow us mortals to access God and merge with him, become part of him, in order to partake of the divine. That fusion is called theosis. The human nature of Christ makes the divine possible for all of us.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37611741) |
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Date: January 18th, 2019 11:34 PM Author: Wild Salmon Black Woman Factory Reset Button
this is really thoughtful.
when creating the Christian theology, they just came up with a justification for how God and humanity are intertwined in a beautiful way.
if it was real, it would be so amazing.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37618638) |
Date: January 18th, 2019 2:02 AM Author: comical irate den turdskin
"some irl guy"
Let me stop you right there, hoss
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37613154) |
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Date: January 18th, 2019 2:50 PM Author: comical irate den turdskin
He's made clear on many occasions that he is a Christian, this thread notwithstanding.
Then why did biblical scholars Bart Ehrman and and Maurice Casey bother writing entire books trying to refute the christ myth theory? Why did Ehrman and Craig A. Evans debate mythicists on the subject?
"Ehrman falsely claims in his book that there are no hyper-specialized historians of ancient Christianity who doubt the historicity of Jesus. So I named one: Arthur Droge, a sitting professor of early Christianity (previously at UCSD; now at the University of Toronto).
And of those who do not meet Ehrman’s irrationally specific criteria but who are certainly qualified, we can now add Kurt Noll, a sitting professor of religion at Brandon University (as I already noted in my review of Is This Not the Carpenter) and Thomas Brodie, a retired professor of biblical studies (as I noted elsewhere). Combined with myself (Richard Carrier) and Robert Price, as fully qualified independent scholars, and Thomas Thompson, a retired professor of some renown, that is more than a handful of well-qualified scholars, all with doctorates in a relevant field, who are on record doubting the historicity of Jesus.
Most recently, Hector Avalos, a sitting professor of religion at Iowa State University, has also declared his agnosticism about historicity as well. And now Raphael Lataster joins the ranks of historicity-doubting experts, with a Ph.D. in religious studies from the University of Sydney.
That makes eight fully qualified experts on the record, three of them sitting professors, plus two retired professors, and three independent scholars with full credentials. And there are no doubt many others who simply haven’t gone on the record.
We also have sympathizers among mainstream experts who nevertheless endorse historicity but acknowledge we have a respectable point, like Philip Davies (Professor Emeritus of Biblical Studies at Sheffield University) and Zeba Crook (Professor of Religious Studies at Carleton University). Francesca Stavrakopoulou (Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at the University of Exeter) says the historicity of Jesus is only “possible” and not certain. Which means she either agrees mythicism is plausible or is even an outright historicity agnostic. Further afield, historian Tom Dykstra, with a Ph.D. in Renaissance Christianity who has nevertheless published peer reviewed works in New Testament studies, similarly grants the plausibility of the mythicist position.
Which makes a dozen relevantly qualified experts now who concur mythicism is at least plausible."
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/1794#22
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37615792) |
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Date: January 18th, 2019 7:04 PM Author: flesh magical sex offender affirmative action
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Josephus, a Jew who never converted to Christianity
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37617169) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 12:13 AM Author: lavender passionate scourge upon the earth
Ok, I am happy to concede that the brain, in the case of memories, could be in an electrochemical state substantially similar to the state it was in when it directly perceived the event that is now the basis of the memory.
I suppose I am attempting to suggest that there exists, when the brain is in such a physical state, not just that physical state, but also a nonphysical state; the images of the memory are not located in three dimensional space, but some nondimensional, abstract space.
Do you agree that thoughts exist in more than physical space?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37618842) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 12:28 AM Author: lavender passionate scourge upon the earth
Yes, I apologize for my laziness in this regard, as it is a point of contention with many as to whether the mind could consist even in part in something "nonphysical"
From there I would simply suggest that if its true that we have this faculty for nonphysical thought, how can we know where it comes from? Is there any amount of correlative observation that would allow us to conclude that the brain produces consciousness? Or is there a simpler explanation for its origin, namely that the world is comprised of two types of things (physical and nonphysical) working together, or perhaps one neutral thing with two aspects or properties?
That is, if we are not happy to be reductive physicalists, and we think we know that there exists some amount of matter and energy in the universe, do we know what exists that is the source of the nonphysical thing?
Taking a bigger step, what do we think the properties of the source of our nonphysical abilities are?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37618936) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 12:46 AM Author: lavender passionate scourge upon the earth
I don't see it as a guess, because I do not see a possible future state in which correlative science is able to prove the production of nonphysical consciousness from physical matter alone. Barring, in principle, such a demonstration, a nonphysical source of consciousness follows directly from serious abductive inferential methods.
If you are content to at least follow along from that conclusion, then we can deduce properties of this source of consciousness. Most importantly, I would think, and believe I can show, that this source of consciousness must be personal in nature - if we have personhood, it must too. Skipping ahead, I believe this source of consciousness must also have power over matter. Further, I believe this source of consciousness must be able to understand, comprehend, and know matter. With these abilities, I believe that this source of consciousness must have therefore created matter. As the creator of matter, of which we are made, I believe this source of consciousness must have also made us, and done so in its image. To again cut to the chase, I believe the image of the creator was perfectly embodied in Christ, who had been waiting for incarnation as the Logos at the beginning of time. Etc, etc.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37619017) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 1:26 AM Author: lavender passionate scourge upon the earth
>>> Presumably you mean that the magical aspects of his life, like that he allegedly came back from the dead
I don't at all mean this. Even if I were to grant that its impossible to show that jesus existed as a human being, even if we assume that christ was 15 people or whatever they think Shakespeare was, it would be enough to point to the writings of Paul and the reverberations therefrom to sufficiently substantiate the historical context. whatever the confluence of events around the birth of christianity, it was a world historic event (series of events) that properly oriented man towards his creator. Whatever happened, it is enough to justify the claim that "christ is Lord". It's enough to say that Jesus performed miracles.
To translate this into terms too concrete for my taste, "christ's life" being a single man's IRL is not critical to the subscription to all the tenants of the religion. I don't mean that, but I feel compelled to say it to an unbeliever.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37619164) |
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Date: January 19th, 2019 9:17 PM Author: comical irate den turdskin
I stopped replying because your post was almost unintelligible. If Jesus was "15 people" or whatever (i.e. if he didn't actually exist in any sense that Christians think he did), then what "historical context" are you talking about? Which "reverberations" from Paul's writings are you referring to?
As far as I can understand, you seem to be trying to say that pretty much anything might have historically happened around the birth of Christianity, but whatever happened was enough for you to be satisfied that some sort of important divine shift occurred. This supposed divine shift is only of any interest to someone who's already accepted that Christianity isn't just made-up nonsense, so I'm not sure why you think there would be any point in saying that to an "unbeliever."
Are you really saying that anything at all could have happened and it would still be good enough for you? Paul could have invented the whole thing while hallucinating and yet there are such impressive "reverberations" from his writings that Christianity still seems to be correct? Please elaborate on what these reverberations are and why they are so convincing to you.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37623252) |
Date: January 18th, 2019 6:50 PM Author: Motley Base
So you went from some hardcore Catholic who claimed Protestants are atheists, to a Protestant, and now you basically claim that all of Christianity is fake?
You really bounce around all over the place. Just come home to Joel Osteen.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37617068) |
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Date: January 18th, 2019 7:06 PM Author: Motley Base
You were hardcore something, back when you claimed Protestants were atheists and couldn’t be trusted.
Before you converted into a Protestant, of course.
So if it wasn’t a hardcore Catholic, what was it?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37617181) |
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Date: January 18th, 2019 9:40 PM Author: Motley Base
He flops all over like I said.
This has been the progression so far:
Greek Orthodox, and Protestants are athiests >>>>>>> Committed Protestant >>>>>>>> Christianity is a lie
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4180135&forum_id=2#37618126) |
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