Their claim works as follows. It’s not that being anti-Zionist is just a ploy by the anti-Semites. It’s that the very nature of Jewishness is tangled up in the existence of Israel, which transcends the current state of Israel. According to their argument, Israel the idea, as well as the country, is what defines Jewishness. To oppose Israel, especially its right to exist, is to oppose that which makes being a Jew possible. Therefore, opposing Israel, by definition, makes that person an anti-Semite.

It is a curious argument, when you examine the implications. There is no doubt that Israel the concept is an inextricable part of Jewish identity. Anyone who has watched the move The Ten Commandments gets that. The Judeo-Christians, however, take this further and move beyond the concept of Israel to the physical country itself. It is hard to know if this is something Jews accept, but we do have example of Jews that have opposed Zionism, so some Jews oppose some aspects of Israel.

Let’s just assume, for the sake of argument, that Prager and Shapiro are right about this and Israel and Jews are one in the same. The first conclusion, the most obvious one, is that Israel is an ethno-state. Sure, anyone can become a Jew, but that is like saying anyone can become a physicist. It may be true in theory, but in reality the conversion rate to Judaism rounds to zero. Jewish law requires the rabbi to strongly discourage gentiles from converting to Judaism.

The other conclusion from the Shapiro-Prager argument is that Jews are, by nature, primarily loyal to Israel. For a Jew to oppose the very essence of what makes him a Jew is an unsolvable paradox. In order to be authentically Jewish, a Jew has to adhere to that which makes one Jewish. If loyalty to Israel comes before everything else, that means all diaspora Jews are guests. They can and do work with their hosts, but in the end, their first loyalty has to be to Israel and the Jewish people.

This is, the argument Hazony makes in his book The Virtue of Nationalism. He does not apply it to Jews in the diaspora, but that is the implication. If Jews are a nation, then the primary loyalty of all Jews must be to that nation. He tries to run the “anyone can be a Jews” line through his argument, but that would invalidate all of his claims about Zionism, so it must be decoration. The implication here is clear. Jews are a nation, spread out around the world, but their ancestral land is Israel.

Another implication of this link between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is that Ben Shapiro is lying when he says ideology trumps race. After all, if Zionism is just another ideological viewpoint, then so is anti-Zionism. Yet, Shapiro insists that being opposed to Zionism immoral on its face. The only way that can be true is if Zionism is based in biology, rather than ideology. Therefore, opposing Zionism is the same as racism, which means that Shapiro thinks race transcends ideology after all.

A possible way around this problem of Jews being a guest population is the claim that America is the new Israel or an extension of Israel. This is something that sells to the Christian Zionists and solves the problem of loyalties. America, according to this theory, is a both a defender of Israel and a staging ground for Jews who will one day return home during the ingathering of the Jewish diaspora. Aliya, the return to Israel, is a core idea of Zionism and it is included in Israel’s Scroll of Independence.

This has appeal to Christian Zionists in America, who believe that the gathering of the diaspora in Israel is in accordance with Bible prophecy and a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus. Christian Zionism has its roots in the 17th century America with the Puritans. It turns up in the 18th century and especially the 19th century with the abolitionists, so it has a long history in America. As a result, there is a large audience for this form of Zionism among American Christians.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it means America is not really a nation or even a country. It’s just a temporary staging area. Loyalty to America, therefore, is contingent on American policy toward Israel. That is as un-American as you can get, as it denies the very existence of America as a country, much less a nation. Even here, the end result of the Judeo-Christian model is one where the Zionist can have no loyalty to America, as America does not exists, outside its role in Zionism.

This logical problem is why smarter Jews have always opposed this line of reasoning with regards to Israel and especially Zionism. In fact, Jews in the diaspora have tended to oppose Israel. The ADL, for example, has steadfastly rejected the argument that anti-Zionism is antisemitism. They argue that Israel is just another country without any special claims upon Jews. Whether they are sincere or not is debatable, but at least their logic allows them to be loyal Americans and Jewish.

That is, fundamentally, the problem with people like Prager and Shapiro. In their zeal to inculcate pro-Israel sentiment, they define themselves as both un-American and opposed to the very concept of America. Worse yet, they encourage Christians to sublimate their national loyalty to the ends of another nation. In order to sell this, they have to lie about their own intentions and their own beliefs. They demand you place ideology over biology, while they place biology ahead of ideology.

https://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=18363

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4326265&forum_id=2#38708775)

the only reason that diaspora jews support israel is that it's a failsafe place to flee if they ever get driven out of their host countries for jewing it up too much. if the right of return didn't exist, diaspora jews wouldn't even support israel. they'd be virtue signaling for palestinians being "oppressed" like the rest of the weird clown leftists in the west

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4326265&forum_id=2#38708832)

it's accurate, no question. but it's not a good sign that Goys are WRACKING THEIR BRAINS JUST to BARELY cotton on to the logic of Jewish subterfuge.

we need a *QUANTUM LEAP* in understanding. white people need to bone up on Machiavelli. they HAVE to realize what they are dealing with and get it in FOCUS. these tentative little cat swipes at the problem are not going to do.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4326265&forum_id=2#38714191)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4326265&forum_id=2#38714259)

"A popular argument from the Judeo-Christians, mostly in response to people like Ilhan Omar and other anti-Israel advocates, is that one cannot be anti-Israel without also being anti-Semitic. Now, in this context, “Judeo-Christian” applies to the Jewish pundits, who are primarily pro-Israel, but have an exclusively Christian audience. People like Ben Shapiro and Dennis Prager. Both of whom are tireless advocates for Israel and promiscuously use the phrase “Judeo-Christian” in their arguments."

Alright. Firstly, I'm not sure anyone refers to themselves as "Judeo-Christian". Ben refers to himself as Jewish. "Judeo-Christian" is a term that usually refers to the shared morals and values of Jews and Christians due to the origins of the faiths and their perceived commonalities.

Secondly, it would cheapen the phrase "anti-Semitism" to say any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. That would be ridiculous. With that said, it is equally ridiculous to suggest that all critics of Israel are merely dispassionate observers. This is where Lawman8's insults relating to my IQ make me laugh because he is not high IQ enough to realize Omar's comments, any comments, re: Israel are inherently anti-Semitic because she is an anti-Semite and in fact hates Israel and believes it is an illegitimate occupying force.

"Their claim works as follows. It’s not that being anti-Zionist is just a ploy by the anti-Semites. It’s that the very nature of Jewishness is tangled up in the existence of Israel"

Stop you right there Hoss - while Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, it is no way "tangled up" in the 'nature' of Jewishness. To be Jewish is to follow and obey the commandments of god and the Torah. The right of the Jews to live in their ancestral homeland is a different topic entirely.

"- which transcends the current state of Israel. According to their argument, Israel the idea, as well as the country, is what defines Jewishness."

Again, not it is not. No one has ever said Israel is the quintessential definition of Jewishness.

"To oppose Israel, especially its right to exist, is to oppose that which makes being a Jew possible. Therefore, opposing Israel, by definition, makes that person an anti-Semite."

Wrong again. Also this definition of "oppose" is vague. Are we talking about the government, policies, or the right of Israel to exist? If the latter, every people has a right to exist in their homeland. It is entirely possible to be a Jew and not be in Israel and Jews survived for millennia in the diaspora. Israel was not formally re-established until 1948, thousands of years after the Romans forcibly depopulated the Jews from their ancient home.

"It is a curious argument, when you examine the implications. There is no doubt that Israel the concept is an inextricable part of Jewish identity. Anyone who has watched the move The Ten Commandments gets that. The Judeo-Christians, however, take this further and move beyond the concept of Israel to the physical country itself. It is hard to know if this is something Jews accept, but we do have example of Jews that have opposed Zionism, so some Jews oppose some aspects of Israel."

LJL @ "the movie the Ten Commandments." Incredible reference here.

Also what is the difference between Israel and physical territory? This is what all nations are composed of - territory.

"Let’s just assume, for the sake of argument, that Prager and Shapiro are right about this and Israel and Jews are one in the same."

They aren't, and these two do not make this argument.

"The first conclusion, the most obvious one, is that Israel is an ethno-state. Sure, anyone can become a Jew, but that is like saying anyone can become a physicist. It may be true in theory, but in reality the conversion rate to Judaism rounds to zero."

Conversion to Judaism is a longer process and more arduous than converting to most religions. This is intentional. It is set up this way to ensure the convert is truly committed to the faith. That said, it is completely true anyone can become a Jew. Anyone. And converts to Judaism have status equal to anyone born into the faith in every way. This author appears highly ignorant of Jewish law regarding this. Additionally, whatever the conversion rate it, it is not high, but it is certainly not zero.

"Jewish law requires the rabbi to strongly discourage gentiles from converting to Judaism."

Correct. They need to prove it's something they truly want. This "discouragement" is a test.

"The other conclusion from the Shapiro-Prager argument is that Jews are, by nature, primarily loyal to Israel. For a Jew to oppose the very essence of what makes him a Jew is an unsolvable paradox."

It is not. As we have established, the Jewish nation-state is not what defines who is a Jew or what is a Jew. As far as 'loyalty' to Israel, most Jews as well as anyone who believes people have a right to be in their homeland, will support this of course. That does not mean a Jew would give Israel carte blanche to do whatever it wants nor would it mean Israel is above criticism is any way. It just so happens again that the majority of the time criticism of Israel is couched in Anti-Semitism or leads to it directly, and this is undeniable. The criticisms are not dispassionate points made in earnest debate. They are most of the time designed to delegitimize Israel and deny it the right to exist at all.

"In order to be authentically Jewish, a Jew has to adhere to that which makes one Jewish."

Yes, the Torah and belief in the one god.

"If loyalty to Israel comes before everything else,"

It doesn't --

" that means all diaspora Jews are guests. They can and do work with their hosts, but in the end, their first loyalty has to be to Israel and the Jewish people."

Jews who reside outside Israel are loyal first and foremost to whatever country they reside in. American Jews are Americans. Italian Jews are Italians, etc. All you have to do is ask them. To suggest otherwise would not even make sense.

"This is, the argument Hazony makes in his book The Virtue of Nationalism. He does not apply it to Jews in the diaspora, but that is the implication. If Jews are a nation, then the primary loyalty of all Jews must be to that nation."

Again, Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, the historic homeland of the Jews, a place where Jewish ideals are the founding principles of the State.

"He tries to run the “anyone can be a Jews” line through his argument, but that would invalidate all of his claims about Zionism, so it must be decoration."

No, it would not. Zionism is a homeland for the Jews in the part of the world to which they have always been connected, were forced out of, based on the tenets and principles of Judaism and democracy.

"The implication here is clear. Jews are a nation, spread out around the world, but their ancestral land is Israel."

Jews are an ethno-religious group, composed of peoples from all over the world, whose shared faith in god and Judaism, democratic ideals, love of justice and peace unites them all. Israel is the state that serves and preserves this.

"Another implication of this link between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is that Ben Shapiro is lying when he says ideology trumps race. After all, if Zionism is just another ideological viewpoint, then so is anti-Zionism."

Anti-Zionism boils down to the view that Israel doesn't have a right to exist, which of course it does. It is the origin point of the Jewish people, religion and culture and this is indisputable.

"Yet, Shapiro insists that being opposed to Zionism immoral on its face. The only way that can be true is if Zionism is based in biology, rather than ideology."

Not correct. The United States of America, the world's greatest country, is based solely on ideas.

"Therefore, opposing Zionism is the same as racism, which means that Shapiro thinks race transcends ideology after all."

No, it does not. "Jews" are not a race and Israel is a homeland for the Jewish people in their place of ancient spiritual and cultural origin.

"A possible way around this problem of Jews being a guest population is the claim that America is the new Israel or an extension of Israel. This is something that sells to the Christian Zionists and solves the problem of loyalties."

How is America an extension of Israel? This doesn't even make sense.

"America, according to this theory, is a both a defender of Israel and a staging ground for Jews who will one day return home during the in gathering of the Jewish diaspora. Aliya, the return to Israel, is a core idea of Zionism and it is included in Israel’s Scroll of Independence."

Aliya is simply the right of any Jew to reside in the Jewish nation-state that is based on the principles and tenets of Judaism, justice and democracy.

"This has appeal to Christian Zionists in America, who believe that the gathering of the diaspora in Israel is in accordance with Bible prophecy and a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus."

This is very over blown. Most Christians who support Israel do not have this apocalyptic belief.

" Christian Zionism has its roots in the 17th century America with the Puritans. It turns up in the 18th century and especially the 19th century with the abolitionists, so it has a long history in America. As a result, there is a large audience for this form of Zionism among American Christians."

Not because of biblical prophecy. This is not a large portion of people, in any sense.

"The problem with this line of reasoning is that it means America is not really a nation or even a country. It’s just a temporary staging area. Loyalty to America, therefore, is contingent on American policy toward Israel. That is as un-American as you can get, as it denies the very existence of America as a country, much less a nation. Even here, the end result of the Judeo-Christian model is one where the Zionist can have no loyalty to America, as America does not exists, outside its role in Zionism."

Again, this is all so incorrect it's not worth responding to. Religious zealotry among Christians believing in apocalyptic prophecy, or Jews for that matter, are at best an extremely minimal percentage of those who support Israel. Most have perfectly normal reasons, i.e justic, history, democracy, liberal ideals, etc.

"This logical problem is why smarter Jews have always opposed this line of reasoning with regards to Israel and especially Zionism. In fact, Jews in the diaspora have tended to oppose Israel. The ADL, for example, has steadfastly rejected the argument that anti-Zionism is antisemitism."

It's not necessarily, but most of the time, it is.

"They argue that Israel is just another country without any special claims upon Jews. Whether they are sincere or not is debatable, but at least their logic allows them to be loyal Americans and Jewish."

Anyone can be and any Jewish American is loyal to America first and foremost is American, not Israeli.

"That is, fundamentally, the problem with people like Prager and Shapiro. In their zeal to inculcate pro-Israel sentiment, they define themselves as both un-American and opposed to the very concept of America."

No, they don't. This author is horrible and misunderstands them entirely.

"Worse yet, they encourage Christians to sublimate their national loyalty to the ends of another nation."

LOL, no, they do not. The arguments for supporting Israel have nothing to do with asking Christians to renounce any kind of loyalty to their own countries. Ask any American Christian why they support Israel.

"In order to sell this, they have to lie about their own intentions and their own beliefs. They demand you place ideology over biology, while they place biology ahead of ideology."

No, they don't, this author is deluded, as is the idiot who poasted this garbage to begin with, GAY GOY, literally one of (the?) worst poaster(s) on this site.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4326265&forum_id=2#38714403)

Their allegiance is to Israel. They have no other allegiances just convenient relationships.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4326265&forum_id=2#38714713)