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Why are MBAs so much happier than JDs?
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:01 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:02 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:03 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:11 PM
I also don't get the McKinsey trolling on this board. It isn't that great of a job. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:17 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:16 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:30 PM
McKinsey = obviously nowhere near 80 hrs/week
any questions? |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:34 PM
McKinsey - are you on crack? Not only are you traveling 5 days out of 7, you work insane hours in exciting places like Flint, Michigan. And the pay isn't even that good - they all have to justify it by talking about "the great placement opportunities that come from the McK name!!!" only to realize later that is mostly a marketing scam. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:38 PM
mckinsey = travelling constantly, but otherwise good hours. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:44 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:45 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:48 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:49 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:52 PM
i also forgot to mention all the fast-track upper mgmt F500 jobs that fresh Harvard MBAs get. i think it's not too much of a strecth to say that they are happier than biglaw 1st and 2nd yr associates. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:54 PM
No, they don't. They may have an easier life than Bankers, but they aren't being paid as much. As we've outlined twice for you, neither McK nor traders have a better life than biglaw, and they get paid about the same. If you find one more interesting than the other, fine. But the hours and pay are similar. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:56 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:03 PM
As far as ibanking, the hours are better in biglaw, especially if you do anything other than M&A. You have bad stretches, but they aren't nearly as bad as ibanking and the pressure also isn't nearly as bad. Also, when you start comparing the comp by age between ibankers and biglawyers (assuming no non-trad grads) - it actually isn't THAT different considering ibankers generally had to have w/e and therefore are a few years older.
Go get some ibanking friends at one of the top banks and see what they tell you if you don't believe me. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:50 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:55 PM
main reason they would not switch to McKinsey jobs is that you don't learn shit, it's really petty work, and the exit opps aren't as impressive or abundant. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:58 PM
Obviously these opportunities exist, but you have to work your ass off to get there and while you are there, and you have to be really good. Not every Goldman ibanking associate gets a great PE job. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:59 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:04 PM
what is with the wharton ug trolling on this board? |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:27 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:46 PM
"in at 8, out at 6" -
Biglaw (other than M&A): generally in at 10, out at 9 - with a lunch. I don't get the big difference. Yes, you have late nights especially when a deal or case is hot, but it is generally a much less intense job than trading. There is a reason why cocaine was such a problem with the traders in the 80s.
"travelling constantly, but otherwise good hours" - time on the plane to and from Flint is part of work. And second, the hours aren't really that good anyway, at least not substantively better than biglaw. I'd rather work an extra hour a day and be able to sleep in my own bed.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:50 PM
ok, so consulting hours aren't fantastic, but they really do not belong in the same bracket as biglaw. consultants DO have time to chill and hang out. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:56 PM
it is when you have to do it with your boss, and, when your drunk, he asks you such zingers as "so, what do you think of that project you are on?" or "where do you see yourself in 5 years?" And if you ever make a poor answer to a wrong step, you are no longer a team player. Its a lot of bullshit political pressure. I'm not saying it doesn't exist at biglaw - it certainly does - but not to the same extent. I'd rather be working on a case than doing that shit.
They really do belong in the same bracket - biglaw people can chill out on the majority of weekends. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:04 PM
as far as the traders getting drunk, i don't know what in the hell you're talking about. that might be institutional sales, which is essentially trading, but the real traders at investment banks and hedge funds are geeks with poor social skills, and they brag about how advancement in trading is all about P&L and that politics don't matter at all. which makes sense, if you think about it.
maybe that's the shit that goes down when you're still trying to become a junior trader who actually makes trades, but once you're there it's about the money you make and nothing else. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:06 PM
Perhaps, my friends are all pretty low. But we were talking about ~2 years out. |
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Date: July 27th, 2006 2:28 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:59 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:04 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:11 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:16 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:08 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:27 AM
MBAs know how much jobs can suck |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:42 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:07 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:02 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:03 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:12 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:13 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:03 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:06 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:01 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:07 PM
edit: besides which, since when is being good at math correlate d with happiness. pensive, anyone? |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:14 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:16 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 5:59 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:01 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:02 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 6:03 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:18 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:40 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:09 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:46 PM
pay isn't |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:18 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:28 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:08 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 4:01 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 4:17 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:52 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:22 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 11:42 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:11 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:26 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:34 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:39 AM
investment banking is a risky business. all it would take is for congress to cap fees or to break up the oligopoly, and the entire business model collapses.
this doesn't apply to private equity however. those guys are adding value to the companies they reorganize and make money for their investors. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:45 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:48 AM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 7:45 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:02 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:20 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 8:25 PM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:47 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:20 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:53 PM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 6:50 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:15 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:32 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:36 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:44 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:45 AM |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 9:37 PM
Yes! Another 0.1 hours billed. |
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Date: July 21st, 2006 10:34 PM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 9:51 AM |
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Date: July 22nd, 2006 1:53 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:36 AM
htfh |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:40 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:42 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:44 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:47 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:50 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:22 PM
That being said, I don't think you learn much of anything at law school either. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:48 AM
pwn3d |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:50 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:52 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:17 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:21 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 11:54 AM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:10 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:31 PM
1. No billable hours 2. Corporate jobs (not IB) rarely go past 5:00. 3. The money is about the same as law (but the per hour earnings are much better). 4. If you pick the right concentration, the work is actually interesting and often fun. 5. No bar, no continuing education, no license to get tagged with every infraction... Oh yeah, and you CAN lie on your resume if you want (nobody will know). 6. Fewer HUGE egos. 7. Much more flexability if you want to change directions during your career. 8. Smaller student loans and less time in school.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:36 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:44 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:45 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:01 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:10 PM
I like law students because even though they act pretentious, you can usually see right through it and know they just try to use big words to cover up for the fact that they never get laid. Its very easy to PWN in social settings. Douchey, fratboy corporate guys are very difficult to pwn because as dumb as they are, they get chicks, so they are confident and generally happy. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:18 PM
Douchey, corporate fratboys who get chicks and are confident and happy are probably easier to spend a working day around than insecure virgin lawyers who try to pwn people in social settings. Plus, the working day is much shorter. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:28 PM
This is totally anecdotal, so I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but my friends that went straight corporate (most are from big state/frat boy schools, I admit) do nothing but harass women every time we go out to the bars. Its not only embarassing, but really obnoxious to be around. I'd much rather enjoy drinking with my friends, have good conversation, and see what girls come my way. Standing there looking like a neaderthal with a beer held close to my chest saying "dude did she look over here? her friend's cute, nice ass" is terribly immature IMO. I actually PREFER my law school friends now to my high school friends because we can go some place, have a sophisticated topic, and attract people our way. With my high school/corporate friends its like being at stupid mixers all over again. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:33 PM
I am only referring to averages and norms, dude. My wife went to Anderson and said that at least 20% of her class were total idiots. Because of the vetting process, I doubt very much that a comparable law school would have so many.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:39 PM
I'd rather be with the miserable yet overambitious as opposed to the idiot frat boys. I've made that choice time and time again in my life. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:41 PM
what about Finance/Operations Research? |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:43 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:49 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:09 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:11 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:53 PM
If you are smart and ambitious and can get into a good law school, then go. If you place high enough you know what salary awaits you and you know what your life will be like. Your raises are predetermined. It sounds like a sure thing.
If you go to business school, it is not so certain. You may start at 50k, you may start at 150k. Your raises are not at all predetermined and your career could go any number of directions. Its not a sure thing at all.
That said, the lawyers I know often say that if they could make the same $ doing something else, they probably would. The business people I know live lives that go beyond the office and are generally pretty happy.
It's all a matter of preference. Im just posting the reasons business people appreciate their situation. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:08 PM
Also, #3 and #7 are misleading and stupid generalities to make. Corporate managers rarely make more than V10 upper level associates (or even mid-level associates) unless they are post MBA and have many years of experience. You start at 40-50k. Make your way to around 75k and its MBA time which takes two years, then you're at 100-150k, but by then you are 27. I'll be making 175k (after bonus) at age 25, and my salary will increase around 10-20k per year until I leave biglaw. If I make partner, I will make a million or so/year. A mil/year is very, very good for a corporate dude. It is the norm for V50 partners.
#7 is also bad. You have more options with an MBA in BUSINESS. Its all too obvious that if you don't like practicing law, don't go to law school. However, there are many many different fields of law and many different practice settings (government state, government federal, public interest, big law firm, small law firm, medium law firm, boutique, sole-practioner, inhouse counsel). If you want to be in the legal field, a top law degree offers a great deal of flexibility. If you want to be in the business field, not so much. However, you can be in business with a J.D. Can't be in law with an MBA.
Also, as far as the great dissatisfaction rates for lawyers: I saw a NALP study recently that showed high dissatisfaction for attorneys at large firms, and VERY HIGH satisfaction for medium to small firms. Bottom line is, don't go work for a sweatshop unless you really are desparate for the $. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:21 PM
- don't forget that here BUSINESS also includes non-profits, and perhaps management positions in the government |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:30 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:05 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:26 PM
The flexability I am talking about is within the field. If you leave B school and go to work for a defense contractor for 10 years, and then decide you hate it, you can easily go work for a party goods company or a auto maker or whatever. Your working day will be much different. If you spend 10 years in Real Estate law, good luck going to work in another area of law. At best you will take an enormous pay cut.
EDIT: Nobody my wife graduated with started at 40-50k. Since work experience is the norm, most of her classmates were making more than that the day they started B school. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:37 PM
Well, this is just a different of opinion I guess. I would say you have to compare Top MBAs to Top JDs. Also, there are many more V50 partners than Top 50 Company CEOs. There are only 50 of the latter.
>The flexability I am talking about is within the field. If >you leave B school and go to work for a defense contractor >for 10 years, and then decide you hate it, you can easily >go work for a party goods company or a auto maker or >whatever. Your working day will be much different. If you >spend 10 years in Real Estate law, good luck going to work >in another area of law. At best you will take an enormous >pay cut.
I totally disagree here. I know lots of lawyers who started in one area and have worked in many other practice areas since then. You can work in whatever area you want in law unless you suck balls and get pidgeonholed somewhere (which certainly happens in business also). What you are describing here happens ALL THE TIME in law. You work in one area of a field, then go to a business/firm in another area of that field. For whatever reason, you like the opportunities in business more than law, but within each field there are plenty of different practice areas. PDs become partners in white collar defense firms, real estate attorneys go to work for real estate developers, M&A attorneys go to work for banks or other financial institutions. I know a trust and estate guy that went to work for commerce bank. PEOPLE CHANGE JOBS ALL THE TIME IN BOTH FIELDS.
>EDIT: Nobody my wife graduated with started at 40-50k. >Since work experience is the norm, most of her classmates >were making more than that the day they started B school.
I think you misunderstood me. 40-50k out of college is pretty normal I think. That's what my friends at accenture make their first year. I said 100-150k after a top20 MBA.
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:47 PM
In business it happens often. People go from sporting goods companies to plastic manufacturers to aerospace. Their daily work is very different in each and they tell me that if it sucks, they can just go do something else. If that is also commonplace in law, I stand corrected. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 1:51 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:28 PM
People go from those same companies as lawyers too. The issue is their practice area. If you do trading, for example, for 10 years, it is very hard to suddenly want to become an ibanker or sales. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:31 PM
I was wrong about this point. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:41 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:52 PM
To do more investment banking type jobs. I don't know how this makes it more flexible than a JD from a big firm who has literally 100s of options of where he wants to practice. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:30 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:33 PM
" the thing is, people go into IBD with the goal of leaving for all kinds of greener pastures, so you know there are good exit opps. the same cannot be said of biglaw"
says who? out of a top firm, you can go to all sorts of different LEGAL careers and, if you are lucky, some business ones. The fact that it is all legal doesn't mean you don't have any options. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:40 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 8:16 PM
If you are taking a job in a corporation, you are not leaving at 5pm and making lawyer salaries. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 12:44 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:30 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:33 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:37 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:40 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:41 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:48 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:58 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:47 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:38 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 2:41 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:55 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:08 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 3:11 PM
== big fucking MBA troll |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:54 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 5:57 PM
if shaolin is bull connor, no way shaolin = you = bull connor...writing style and focus are way too different. |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 6:03 PM
shaolin=bull connor=strom thurmond |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:21 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:25 PM |
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Date: July 26th, 2006 10:29 PM |
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Date: July 27th, 2006 2:13 AM |