When did Yoda go from "quirky, swamp creature" to "most powerful Jedi ever?"
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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:10 AM Author: iridescent church building stain
your argument that this is revisionist or significantly in tension with Yoda as portrayed in the original trilogy is weak. Imo the most charitable gloss on the point you’re making would be that because Yoda is a fairly minor character in the OT, his characterization is not fully fleshed out and so the stuff we now see in the broader SW canon has expanded his characterization in such a way that there are sharper and more well defined aspects to him than what was presented in the OT/Empire. But claiming that the post OT has substantially rewritten or contradicted Yoda as first presented is false and poorly supported imo for the following reasons.
now, let me say that I'm a pretty casual SW fan as things go. I’ve seen the OT multiple times here and there over time but haven't seen any other SW film more than once, some not at all (Solo, ROS), and have never consumed any other SW media like the animated shit, mandalorian, or books/comics/etc. I'm just going to accept your premise that canonical Yoda has now become established as like apex Force master or whatever. I still think your argument is wrong because:
1) by late into ANH and early into ESB it's firmly established that Luke, while young and unpolished, is naturally incredibly strong w. the force. nevertheless the disparity in force aptitude between Yoda and Luke is night and day. Yoda effortlessly does things that Luke can't do with great concentration, even after training and improving his force acuity.
2) in ESB Yoda is seen as the obvious and preeminent choice in terms of who should train Luke. this suggests the inference that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi master in the universe at that time (if a more powerful Jedi were available, presumably Luke would train with them rather than Yoda). sure, you can say they're drawing from a shallow deck given the Jedi purge in RotS, but:
(a) it's not explicitly stated (AFAIK) that Yoda and OWK are the *only* Jedi to survive the purge and make it to the OT timeline. I don't think that's really implied to have been the case either. obviously the Jedi as an organization are badly crippled, enough that those remaining have to go underground, and we see various Jedi getting GOT like bitchass niggers when 'order 66' or whatever is executed, but I was never under the impression that the prequels were supposed to have -exhaustively- introduced us to all extent Jedi. I think it's reasonable to infer that some were off on unrelated missions, or meditating in the woods somewhere or whatever such that they (1) did not get GOT (2) also go to ground when they learn of or sense the Jedi purge and (3) despite surviving, were obviously viewed as less powerful Force masters than Yoda by the time of the events in Empire, given that Yoda, not they, were selected to train Luke.
(b) dismissing Yoda's implied Force preeminence (see above, he's the 'best' option to train Luke) as mere happenstance resulting from other (presumably, by your reasoning, more powerful) Force masters getting got in the purge is circular question begging. it stands to reason that a Jedi's chances of being anti-fragile enough to survive Palpatine maticulously planned turn would correlate significantly with their prowess as Jedis. we see various cone-headed, tentacle-headed and what have you Jedis getting cut down like butter by random stormtroopers and goons on Palpatine's order. useless ‘spider sense’ thru the Force or capacity to sense the emotions of those around them so they’re just getting unceremoniously capped in the back and whatnot, whereas Yoda had by the end of the prequels fought both Doku and Palpatine to a stalemate.
(yes Ill acknowledge you could say that now I'm mixing my metaphors, because I'm bringing up events in the prequels to try and establish my point about the Yoda we meet in OT, when the central thrust of your argument was that the characterization of prequel Yoda and ESB Yoda are not consistent. I'm only meaning for the compare/contrast of Yoda and other Order 66 Jedi getting got in the prequels to add some color to my argument, if you will. wiping those specific illustrations away I think the anti fragile point stands. although we don’t have all the details, in ANH and ESB we are clearly told that the Jedi were purged and hunted, i.e., while they were once numerous and powerful by definition MOST did not survive the Empire’s rise to power, but Yoda DID and he has managed to survive not only the purge but also never be tracked down subsequently, despite presumably being a high value target. looking backwards, it still stands to reason that managing to survive all the way til the events of ESB would be highly indicative of superior overall Jedi prowess, rather than a random chance occurrence)
3) the only real substantive points in your argument as I understand it seems to be that (a) Yoda as introduced in ESB acts kind of goofy and self deprecating and (b) the Yoda of ESB never explicitly tells Luke anything along the lines of 'oh yeah and just FYI I'm like a Jedi CHAD, btw. most powerful in the galaxy. my Force dick is hung like a Jedi blue whale, haha!'
these are weak. Yoda joking around and goofing on Luke seems indicative of his personality, not his Jedi prowess. he's been stuck on a swamp planet alone for however long and is clearly fucking around with Luke playing dumb like 'oh a Jedi SCHOLAR you seek!' like it's someone else as a form of self-amusement. it's also didactic, meant to underscore Luke's presupposing what a powerful Jedi would look like physically, when he needs to learn that actually physical strength and strength with the Force are totally different buckets.
as far neither Yoda nor anyone else saying 'oh btw ... let me draw your attention to JUST HOW SUPERLATIVE Yoda's Jeding and Forcing are' I don't see how that illustrates any tension or inconsistency. even without relying on all the prequel stuff about how DANGEROUS it is for a Jedi to be arrogant or self-obsessed, it's already well enough implied in the OT by the time we meet Yoda that monastic humility and understatement is the Jedi way, not boasting about one's self or vainly comparing the attainments of others. like not only would Yoda not say such things about himself but any third person or OWK or whoever would, when talking abut him, say something more understated and vague like 'watch and listen carefully to your instructor, as he has much wisdom to share' rather than 'oh yea, Yoda he's like the most BAMF Jedi ever, man; HIS Force goes up to like eleven!!!'
like if your point is actually something more along the lines that bringing in quantifiable midichlorians and subsequently putting great emphasis or too fine a point on Yoda's apparent standing among the pantheon of all time Jedis GOATs or w/e is shitty storytelling that tends to undermine the mystique and mythology crafted by the OT, then sure I'd agree with that. I just don't think it's an actual source of inconsistency or tension.
if anything I think Yoda's OT portrayal is very consistent with the notion that he's like the OG GOAT Jedi, if that's what we've subsequently been told. it's just that solid writing throughout the OT (keeping in mind that George's only OT solo screenplay was ANH, whereas Kasdan was seen as the main architect of ESB and RotJ) understood that less was more. better to imply and subtly SHOW us how this goofy 3 ft tall frog COULD be all the all time GOAT POTUS of Jedis, rather than measure his midichlorians and TELL us that he actually WAS the GOAT POTUS bc his Force did go up to eleven, along with various other clunky faux pas storytelling shit that subsequent media in the franchise has done.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971289) |
Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:26 AM Author: Rough-skinned sex offender state
it’s a pretty transparent theme from the get go that yoda uniquely embodies the light side of the force: detached, ostensibly weak/lacking raw masculine energy, unwilling to seek out conflict (actively avoiding the intergalactic struggle that he should be uniquely able to impact), yet complete mastery over the spooky magic that interconnects all things.
meanwhile, OB1 can’t beat Vader because he embraces the light in the fight; Luke can’t beat Vader until he embraces the dark side (and then he gets pwnd for embracing the light); only Vader in rage can beat the emperor.
light side literally never won a single force fight in the original series because it’s fundamentally anti-conflict. yoda perfectly embodies this and it was always implied he is a master on a different plane. problem was that light doesn’t have the same combat utility. once this changed to just evil rage vs righteous anger yoda kept the same GOAT shtick but it lost its plausibility/meaning
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971336) |
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