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When did Yoda go from "quirky, swamp creature" to "most powerful Jedi ever?"

The consensus view now is that Yoda is among the most powerf...
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
http://stonetoss.com/comic/do-it/
hilarious sapphire hunting ground
  09/23/20
Is then next trilogy old republic? If so that would be 180. ...
chest-beating provocative national security agency resort
  09/23/20
They’re not going super old republic like KOTOR they&r...
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
They should make the villain a compelling, somewhat sympathe...
chest-beating provocative national security agency resort
  09/23/20
There’s no way Disney has the sophistication to put a ...
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
Let me guess the Vikings are going to bring dragons
chest-beating provocative national security agency resort
  09/23/20
authentic CHINESE dragons for the overseas audience
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
I guess my point is Disney has an opportunity to develop an ...
chest-beating provocative national security agency resort
  09/23/20
The villains will be racists. Driven by their racial animus.
Arrogant cumskin
  09/23/20
It’s a movie aimed at 12 year olds
learning disabled field clown
  09/23/20
This is a bad faith reply.
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
it's perfectly responsive. You're asking why a fictional mov...
learning disabled field clown
  09/23/20
I've given up on star wars. Its time for you to do so too.
Arrogant cumskin
  09/23/20
I’m trying to get into the historiography of Yoda.
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
He's a puppet that was given a tinge of having a mysterious ...
Arrogant cumskin
  09/23/20
Wow, the jerk store just called.
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
...
Rough-skinned sex offender state
  09/23/20
...
chest-beating provocative national security agency resort
  09/23/20
...
learning disabled field clown
  09/23/20
Look into the mirror and say this every morning.
Yellow dashing queen of the night
  09/23/20
It’s a good question and I think they need to do 3 or ...
aphrodisiac station ape
  09/23/20
...
cream factory reset button
  09/23/20
your argument that this is revisionist or significantly in t...
iridescent church building stain
  09/23/20
This is a great poast but I think to properly respond to it ...
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20
I just read all of this Some serious SW scholarship here
exhilarant lime sanctuary
  09/23/20
...
Wonderful gas station
  09/23/20
Also, it's not just that some individuals are stronger with ...
aphrodisiac station ape
  09/23/20
180 poast.
Topaz useless rigor
  09/23/20
where can I subscribe for more PN Star Wars scholarship
twinkling casino generalized bond
  09/23/20
LOL @ you not being a star wars SCHOLAR and penning this exc...
Marvelous indirect expression voyeur
  09/23/20
...
exhilarant lime sanctuary
  09/23/20
nerd!
Transparent Lodge Travel Guidebook
  09/23/20
...
Yellow dashing queen of the night
  09/23/20
it’s a pretty transparent theme from the get go that y...
Rough-skinned sex offender state
  09/23/20
he ran flame on Luke for like an hour before dropping the cr...
Fantasy-prone locale ratface
  09/23/20
Actually, on screen, it was like 4 minutes. ESB was pure gen...
aphrodisiac station ape
  09/23/20
The concurrent time lines in that movie don't even come clos...
abusive soul-stirring round eye double fault
  09/23/20
It's hard to say, but I think you have to assume that Han an...
aphrodisiac station ape
  09/23/20
...
Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse
  09/23/20


Poast new message in this thread



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 6:29 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

The consensus view now is that Yoda is among the most powerful Jedi ever to have lived. Even by the prequel trilogy, that view seems to have become enshrined; he's rumored to be the centerpiece of the next Disney SW trilogy set hundreds of years before the Skywalker saga. But if you watch the OT, he mostly comes off as an insane hermit living in a swamp who was once a Jedi. Where is the epistemological bridge between the presentation of Yoda in the OT and the evolved presentation of the same character in later Star Wars canon and lore? Was there a push within the extended universe literature between the OT and the PT to power Yoda up? An idea Lucas came up with wholecloth?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971035)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 1:26 PM
Author: hilarious sapphire hunting ground

http://stonetoss.com/comic/do-it/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40972713)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 6:56 AM
Author: chest-beating provocative national security agency resort

Is then next trilogy old republic? If so that would be 180. Or are they so obsessed with ramming in the original characters that they need Yoda involved?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971050)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:14 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

They’re not going super old republic like KOTOR they’re going high republic think 300, 400 years before Skywalker Saga which in retconned Disney canon represents the high water mark of the Republic. Yoda will reportedly be a centerpiece of a squad of active Jedi fighting a menace from beyond the borders of the Republic.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971071)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:21 AM
Author: chest-beating provocative national security agency resort

They should make the villain a compelling, somewhat sympathetic character like The Mule, but I’m sure Disney will just make him an evil fucking white male going up against Yoda’s diverse LGBT friendly squad of perfect Jedi.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971075)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:24 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

There’s no way Disney has the sophistication to put a character like the Mule on screen nor would they take the creative risk even if they had the chops. From what I’ve heard the enemy is sort of like a cross between space pirates and Vikings. So there’s that. They should have just done the KOTOR story but they have a reflexive resistance to anything that was written or made before their acquisition

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971079)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:26 AM
Author: chest-beating provocative national security agency resort

Let me guess the Vikings are going to bring dragons

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971082)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:27 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

authentic CHINESE dragons for the overseas audience

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971083)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:31 AM
Author: chest-beating provocative national security agency resort

I guess my point is Disney has an opportunity to develop an antagonist with its own motivation or philosophy besides pure conquest or something lame like “we need resources to help keep us alive.” But I’m sure it will be something very superficial or just pure good/evil. Say what you will about Episodes I-III but at least they tried seriously to explain why Anakin would embrace the dark side.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971093)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:58 AM
Author: Arrogant cumskin

The villains will be racists. Driven by their racial animus.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971155)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:33 AM
Author: learning disabled field clown

It’s a movie aimed at 12 year olds

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971096)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:49 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

This is a bad faith reply.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971130)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:32 AM
Author: learning disabled field clown

it's perfectly responsive. You're asking why a fictional movie aimed at 12 year old boys isnot internally and externally consistent with respect to your strictly logical interpretations. The reason is, it's not intended to be.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971348)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:34 AM
Author: Arrogant cumskin

I've given up on star wars. Its time for you to do so too.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971099)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:50 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

I’m trying to get into the historiography of Yoda.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971134)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 7:58 AM
Author: Arrogant cumskin

He's a puppet that was given a tinge of having a mysterious past that was expanded on 25 years later in a cartoonish way to appeal to the maximum number of Chinese 12 year olds.. Thats your history. This isn't complicated.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971153)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 8:02 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

Wow, the jerk store just called.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971163)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:16 AM
Author: Rough-skinned sex offender state



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971310)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 8:07 AM
Author: chest-beating provocative national security agency resort



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971176)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:32 AM
Author: learning disabled field clown



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971349)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:33 AM
Author: Yellow dashing queen of the night

Look into the mirror and say this every morning.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971352)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 8:01 AM
Author: aphrodisiac station ape

It’s a good question and I think they need to do 3 or 4 seasons on Disney+ to carefully chronicle Yoda’s slow descent into quirkinesses during his exile

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971161)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 1:28 PM
Author: cream factory reset button



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40972732)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:10 AM
Author: iridescent church building stain

your argument that this is revisionist or significantly in tension with Yoda as portrayed in the original trilogy is weak. Imo the most charitable gloss on the point you’re making would be that because Yoda is a fairly minor character in the OT, his characterization is not fully fleshed out and so the stuff we now see in the broader SW canon has expanded his characterization in such a way that there are sharper and more well defined aspects to him than what was presented in the OT/Empire. But claiming that the post OT has substantially rewritten or contradicted Yoda as first presented is false and poorly supported imo for the following reasons.

now, let me say that I'm a pretty casual SW fan as things go. I’ve seen the OT multiple times here and there over time but haven't seen any other SW film more than once, some not at all (Solo, ROS), and have never consumed any other SW media like the animated shit, mandalorian, or books/comics/etc. I'm just going to accept your premise that canonical Yoda has now become established as like apex Force master or whatever. I still think your argument is wrong because:

1) by late into ANH and early into ESB it's firmly established that Luke, while young and unpolished, is naturally incredibly strong w. the force. nevertheless the disparity in force aptitude between Yoda and Luke is night and day. Yoda effortlessly does things that Luke can't do with great concentration, even after training and improving his force acuity.

2) in ESB Yoda is seen as the obvious and preeminent choice in terms of who should train Luke. this suggests the inference that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi master in the universe at that time (if a more powerful Jedi were available, presumably Luke would train with them rather than Yoda). sure, you can say they're drawing from a shallow deck given the Jedi purge in RotS, but:

(a) it's not explicitly stated (AFAIK) that Yoda and OWK are the *only* Jedi to survive the purge and make it to the OT timeline. I don't think that's really implied to have been the case either. obviously the Jedi as an organization are badly crippled, enough that those remaining have to go underground, and we see various Jedi getting GOT like bitchass niggers when 'order 66' or whatever is executed, but I was never under the impression that the prequels were supposed to have -exhaustively- introduced us to all extent Jedi. I think it's reasonable to infer that some were off on unrelated missions, or meditating in the woods somewhere or whatever such that they (1) did not get GOT (2) also go to ground when they learn of or sense the Jedi purge and (3) despite surviving, were obviously viewed as less powerful Force masters than Yoda by the time of the events in Empire, given that Yoda, not they, were selected to train Luke.

(b) dismissing Yoda's implied Force preeminence (see above, he's the 'best' option to train Luke) as mere happenstance resulting from other (presumably, by your reasoning, more powerful) Force masters getting got in the purge is circular question begging. it stands to reason that a Jedi's chances of being anti-fragile enough to survive Palpatine maticulously planned turn would correlate significantly with their prowess as Jedis. we see various cone-headed, tentacle-headed and what have you Jedis getting cut down like butter by random stormtroopers and goons on Palpatine's order. useless ‘spider sense’ thru the Force or capacity to sense the emotions of those around them so they’re just getting unceremoniously capped in the back and whatnot, whereas Yoda had by the end of the prequels fought both Doku and Palpatine to a stalemate.

(yes Ill acknowledge you could say that now I'm mixing my metaphors, because I'm bringing up events in the prequels to try and establish my point about the Yoda we meet in OT, when the central thrust of your argument was that the characterization of prequel Yoda and ESB Yoda are not consistent. I'm only meaning for the compare/contrast of Yoda and other Order 66 Jedi getting got in the prequels to add some color to my argument, if you will. wiping those specific illustrations away I think the anti fragile point stands. although we don’t have all the details, in ANH and ESB we are clearly told that the Jedi were purged and hunted, i.e., while they were once numerous and powerful by definition MOST did not survive the Empire’s rise to power, but Yoda DID and he has managed to survive not only the purge but also never be tracked down subsequently, despite presumably being a high value target. looking backwards, it still stands to reason that managing to survive all the way til the events of ESB would be highly indicative of superior overall Jedi prowess, rather than a random chance occurrence)

3) the only real substantive points in your argument as I understand it seems to be that (a) Yoda as introduced in ESB acts kind of goofy and self deprecating and (b) the Yoda of ESB never explicitly tells Luke anything along the lines of 'oh yeah and just FYI I'm like a Jedi CHAD, btw. most powerful in the galaxy. my Force dick is hung like a Jedi blue whale, haha!'

these are weak. Yoda joking around and goofing on Luke seems indicative of his personality, not his Jedi prowess. he's been stuck on a swamp planet alone for however long and is clearly fucking around with Luke playing dumb like 'oh a Jedi SCHOLAR you seek!' like it's someone else as a form of self-amusement. it's also didactic, meant to underscore Luke's presupposing what a powerful Jedi would look like physically, when he needs to learn that actually physical strength and strength with the Force are totally different buckets.

as far neither Yoda nor anyone else saying 'oh btw ... let me draw your attention to JUST HOW SUPERLATIVE Yoda's Jeding and Forcing are' I don't see how that illustrates any tension or inconsistency. even without relying on all the prequel stuff about how DANGEROUS it is for a Jedi to be arrogant or self-obsessed, it's already well enough implied in the OT by the time we meet Yoda that monastic humility and understatement is the Jedi way, not boasting about one's self or vainly comparing the attainments of others. like not only would Yoda not say such things about himself but any third person or OWK or whoever would, when talking abut him, say something more understated and vague like 'watch and listen carefully to your instructor, as he has much wisdom to share' rather than 'oh yea, Yoda he's like the most BAMF Jedi ever, man; HIS Force goes up to like eleven!!!'

like if your point is actually something more along the lines that bringing in quantifiable midichlorians and subsequently putting great emphasis or too fine a point on Yoda's apparent standing among the pantheon of all time Jedis GOATs or w/e is shitty storytelling that tends to undermine the mystique and mythology crafted by the OT, then sure I'd agree with that. I just don't think it's an actual source of inconsistency or tension.

if anything I think Yoda's OT portrayal is very consistent with the notion that he's like the OG GOAT Jedi, if that's what we've subsequently been told. it's just that solid writing throughout the OT (keeping in mind that George's only OT solo screenplay was ANH, whereas Kasdan was seen as the main architect of ESB and RotJ) understood that less was more. better to imply and subtly SHOW us how this goofy 3 ft tall frog COULD be all the all time GOAT POTUS of Jedis, rather than measure his midichlorians and TELL us that he actually WAS the GOAT POTUS bc his Force did go up to eleven, along with various other clunky faux pas storytelling shit that subsequent media in the franchise has done.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971289)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:17 AM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse

This is a great poast but I think to properly respond to it I’m going to now have to minutely review the script of each OT film and circle back. TYIA

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971316)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:36 AM
Author: exhilarant lime sanctuary

I just read all of this

Some serious SW scholarship here

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971364)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:45 AM
Author: Wonderful gas station



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971400)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:40 AM
Author: aphrodisiac station ape

Also, it's not just that some individuals are stronger with the force, but there's a complementary ebb and flow to light and dark sides that elevates certain heroes and villains at different times. In the prequel trilogy and between ROTJ and TFA, the dark side is surging, and Palpatine and even Kylo Ren become unstoppable, and even Yoda and post-ROTJ Luke can do fuck-all about it.

In eps 4 and 7, the light side surges, and Luke and Rey dominate

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971379)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 2:04 PM
Author: Topaz useless rigor

180 poast.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40972936)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:18 PM
Author: twinkling casino generalized bond

where can I subscribe for more PN Star Wars scholarship

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40975557)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:24 PM
Author: Marvelous indirect expression voyeur

LOL @ you not being a star wars SCHOLAR and penning this excellent screed.

Just own it bro.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40975592)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:37 PM
Author: exhilarant lime sanctuary



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40975675)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:18 AM
Author: Transparent Lodge Travel Guidebook

nerd!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971319)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:32 AM
Author: Yellow dashing queen of the night



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971350)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:26 AM
Author: Rough-skinned sex offender state

it’s a pretty transparent theme from the get go that yoda uniquely embodies the light side of the force: detached, ostensibly weak/lacking raw masculine energy, unwilling to seek out conflict (actively avoiding the intergalactic struggle that he should be uniquely able to impact), yet complete mastery over the spooky magic that interconnects all things.

meanwhile, OB1 can’t beat Vader because he embraces the light in the fight; Luke can’t beat Vader until he embraces the dark side (and then he gets pwnd for embracing the light); only Vader in rage can beat the emperor.

light side literally never won a single force fight in the original series because it’s fundamentally anti-conflict. yoda perfectly embodies this and it was always implied he is a master on a different plane. problem was that light doesn’t have the same combat utility. once this changed to just evil rage vs righteous anger yoda kept the same GOAT shtick but it lost its plausibility/meaning

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971336)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:43 AM
Author: Fantasy-prone locale ratface

he ran flame on Luke for like an hour before dropping the crazy old swamp dweller schtick

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971392)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:48 AM
Author: aphrodisiac station ape

Actually, on screen, it was like 4 minutes. ESB was pure genius in pacing and tight dialogue in that it felt like a huge twist/reveal.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40971411)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:31 PM
Author: abusive soul-stirring round eye double fault

The concurrent time lines in that movie don't even come close to lining up but it's so perfectly paced that you don't really care.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40975637)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:35 PM
Author: aphrodisiac station ape

It's hard to say, but I think you have to assume that Han and Leia were inside the asteroid for days, and then took a couple weeks at least to travel to Cloud City

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40975657)



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Date: September 23rd, 2020 9:09 PM
Author: Self-absorbed milk meetinghouse



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4631292&forum_id=2#40975504)