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Do you say congrats to someone “promoted” to Of Counsel?

...
.....,,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.
  01/12/21
Depends on what they were before. Partner? No. Senior A...
Sex & Love Addict
  01/12/21
Senior associate to of counsel. Doesn’t that mean they...
.....,,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.
  01/12/21
Not necessarily And either way you must pretend it is 18...
"'"'"'"'"'
  01/12/21
I guess just feels like a dick move to say congrats to someo...
.....,,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.
  01/12/21
Many firms use counsel as a role between partner and associa...
Doggy Suicide
  01/13/21
Welcome to the Hotel Of Counsel
I'm gay tp
  01/13/21
or they’re in a partner waiting room
Richard, from England
  01/12/21
Better to just ignore. Like when someone gets Super Lawyers
Emotionally + Physically Abusive Ex-Husband
  01/12/21
ljl @ Super Lawyers
post-op clutchable
  01/12/21
*freezes in middle of clickgin "send" on suprise b...
Non sequitur
  01/12/21
somebody's jelly
A Jurisprudence is Performed
  01/13/21
But this was me literally, actually :-/
Emotionally + Physically Abusive Ex-Husband
  01/13/21
No. Depending on the firm, it can be like a trial period wh...
Sex & Love Addict
  01/12/21
these days no. it's easier to give people meaningless promot...
Shabba Ranks
  01/12/21
a friend of mine made of counsel at a v3 and sort of resigne...
dha tux
  01/12/21
What does "of counsel" even mean and how is it dif...
post-op clutchable
  01/12/21
It means you've been around too long to be called an associa...
gromjoh
  01/12/21
It means you don't own the firm, but you've ascended beyond ...
Sex & Love Addict
  01/12/21
it's like a feudal baron. associates pledge fealty to Ofs co...
A Jurisprudence is Performed
  01/13/21
Sometimes it means you only want to work 20hr/week and still...
ominous gulp
  01/13/21
They want to increase your billing rate without paying you m...
PrestigeWhore
  01/13/21
...
;::;:;;\'\';:::\'.,:...:::;
  01/13/21
No. Of counsel is an acknowledgment you're out of the race ...
gromjoh
  01/12/21
Congratulate them and kiss the ring. Counsel can still m...
"'"'"'"'"'
  01/12/21
Former statement is true latter isn't. There are junior ass...
gromjoh
  01/12/21
Yeah I just mean don't unnecessarily piss off people who can...
"'"'"'"'"'
  01/12/21
disagree, its often a designation they give to someone they ...
Shabba Ranks
  01/12/21
This could vary depending on your firm so we may just be int...
gromjoh
  01/12/21
yeah things are a bit different here in surabaya, indonesia
Shabba Ranks
  01/12/21
...
gromjoh
  01/12/21
Didn't realize BIGLAW in West Virginia worked that way. Her...
'""'""'""
  01/12/21
Depends entirely on the firm. Many firms use it at a rest s...
Sex & Love Addict
  01/12/21
I think we just have a different ranking system than most. ...
gromjoh
  01/12/21
...
Richard, from England
  01/12/21
...
bowlcut autist
  01/12/21
...
dha tux
  01/13/21
even if it's "just to be polite" you should do it ...
A Jurisprudence is Performed
  01/13/21
Hmmm, link?
I'm gay tp
  01/13/21
https://emilypost.com/advice/reacting-of-counsel-promotion
A Jurisprudence is Performed
  01/13/21
...
I'm gay tp
  01/13/21
...
Shabba Ranks
  01/13/21
...
gromjoh
  01/13/21
He was Of Counsel of Blank Rome!
Judas Jones
  01/12/21
...
Non sequitur
  01/12/21
...
lamarcus
  01/12/21
...
Candy Ride
  01/12/21
The teen model said to her friend. Her friend nodded approv...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
...
;::;:;;\'\';:::\'.,:...:::;
  01/13/21
Imagining RSF as Ptolemy XIII (the child pharaoh) in that sc...
lamarcus
  01/13/21
"Thank you for your service!"
CapTTTainFalcon
  01/12/21
Of Counsel, my Counsel!
Candy Ride
  01/12/21
...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
Aye aye, Counsel!
Candy Ride
  01/12/21
...
dha tux
  01/12/21
...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
Completely depends on the person and the firm. As noted abov...
Hombre MMMXII
  01/12/21
Yes bc none of you are equity material so best you can hope ...
Treasonous Terrorist Trumpmos (TTT)
  01/12/21
Some people quit within the year after making counsel becaus...
,..,,,,,,....,,,...,
  01/13/21
I see myself as a Cat. 2 low T lifetime OC
Judas Jones
  01/13/21
<><><>NOBREAKFAST<><><>
Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities
  01/13/21
For those that went through this, how did you feel? I didn'...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
The gunning is not really over though. Of counsel can someti...
Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities
  01/13/21
Isn't that sort of shrugworthy and you either start looking ...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
Most law firms are absolutely miserable at giving feedback a...
.,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.
  01/13/21
Yes, but partnerships is generally off the table once you ge...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
The incentive is to make partner the first time around. Or i...
.,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.
  01/13/21
Yeah I get that. I'm talking once that ship has sailed.
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
Depends on the firm. At many firms counsel is now essentiall...
Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities
  01/13/21
Really? Isn't that usually what "non-equity partner&qu...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
Varies. Some firms don't have nonequity partners so they use...
Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities
  01/13/21
some firms dont have that
Shabba Ranks
  01/13/21
My firm had of counsel- non equity - equity although I know ...
A Jurisprudence is Performed
  01/13/21
Interesting. That sort of makes sense since it keeps everyo...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
It’s crushing. Didn’t happen to me, but everyone...
.,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.
  01/13/21
Agree and good points. "This is a good example of wh...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
They generally are replaced by more junior associates who th...
.,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.
  01/13/21
That's the model. It is up or out. The reason goes back to m...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
The answer to your question is increasingly they don't. We ...
gromjoh
  01/13/21
But there aren't enough counsel positions to go to all senio...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
The natural attrition at most biglaw firms is very, very str...
gromjoh
  01/13/21
I've seen people take the "of counsel" / "you...
gromjoh
  01/13/21
Makes sense. Ty.
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21
Brutal Norton Rose neg.
Sex & Love Addict
  01/13/21
...
'"'""'"''"'
  01/13/21


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:51 PM
Author: .....,,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.




(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739857)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:52 PM
Author: Sex & Love Addict

Depends on what they were before.

Partner? No.

Senior Associate? Yes.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739871)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:53 PM
Author: .....,,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.


Senior associate to of counsel. Doesn’t that mean they will never be partner though?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739883)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:54 PM
Author: "'"'"'"'"'

Not necessarily

And either way you must pretend it is 180 instead of humiliating

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739890)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:55 PM
Author: .....,,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.,.,..,.,.


I guess just feels like a dick move to say congrats to someone when it must be a bit of a let down personally (I assume)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739899)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 10:30 AM
Author: Doggy Suicide

Many firms use counsel as a role between partner and associate

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744269)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 10:43 AM
Author: I'm gay tp

Welcome to the Hotel Of Counsel

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744390)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:54 PM
Author: Richard, from England

or they’re in a partner waiting room

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739897)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:55 PM
Author: Emotionally + Physically Abusive Ex-Husband (they/them)

Better to just ignore. Like when someone gets Super Lawyers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739900)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:56 PM
Author: post-op clutchable

ljl @ Super Lawyers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739908)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:04 PM
Author: Non sequitur

*freezes in middle of clickgin "send" on suprise balloon bouquet to Super Lawyer

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739995)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:38 AM
Author: A Jurisprudence is Performed

somebody's jelly

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743703)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 12:15 PM
Author: Emotionally + Physically Abusive Ex-Husband (they/them)

But this was me literally, actually :-/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745072)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:58 PM
Author: Sex & Love Addict

No. Depending on the firm, it can be like a trial period where you are in charge of matters (AmLaw 20-100), or until you develop a book of business (AmLaw 100-200).

If it's a firm like GDC where almost no one makes partner, then yeah, you'll probably never be partner, and your reward is they've decided you can stay at GDC forever.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739921)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:04 PM
Author: Shabba Ranks

these days no. it's easier to give people meaningless promotions than partnership, and firms are using this to pull the ladder up a little higher, and to extract more work from high performers who dont have the business case for partnership yet

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739991)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:19 PM
Author: dha tux ( )

a friend of mine made of counsel at a v3 and sort of resigned himself to it, talked about relaxing and spending time with his family.

he made partner six months or so later LJL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741185)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:58 PM
Author: post-op clutchable

What does "of counsel" even mean and how is it different from associate?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739923)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:00 PM
Author: gromjoh

It means you've been around too long to be called an associate without it being embarrassing but they don't want to give you equity. That's the cynical take.

Once in a blue moon you'll get an of counsel comp arrangement that is actually decent (e.g., 25% of revenue above 1,500 billables goes directly into your pocket + origination) but those are rare and tend to involve politically sensitive lateral hires that you don't want to place directly into the partnership but still want at the firm.

And then it's a landing place for older equity partners, which is fine, everyone acknowledges there's a life cycle to this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739945)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:05 PM
Author: Sex & Love Addict

It means you don't own the firm, but you've ascended beyond mere associate.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740003)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:39 AM
Author: A Jurisprudence is Performed

it's like a feudal baron. associates pledge fealty to Ofs counsel, Ofs counsel pledge fealty to partners, and they all pledge fealty to the Management Committee (which answers only to G*d)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743709)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 10:38 AM
Author: ominous gulp (Poasts are exclusively artistic expression)

Sometimes it means you only want to work 20hr/week and still get paid 400k

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744348)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 11:56 AM
Author: PrestigeWhore (common hydroxychloroquine side effects may include hair loss)

They want to increase your billing rate without paying you much more

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744929)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 11:57 AM
Author: ;::;:;;\'\';:::\'.,:...:::;




(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744940)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 4:59 PM
Author: gromjoh

No. Of counsel is an acknowledgment you're out of the race in either direction (i.e., they've off-ramped you as an associate or they've de-equitized you as a partner). It's an at best neutral move and not something you congratulate people for unless you're just being polite.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739930)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:00 PM
Author: "'"'"'"'"'

Congratulate them and kiss the ring.

Counsel can still make your work life worse than it needs to be.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739940)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:01 PM
Author: gromjoh

Former statement is true latter isn't. There are junior associates who can make your work life worse than it needs to be that doesn't mean they've moved up in the hierarchy vs. you.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739956)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:05 PM
Author: "'"'"'"'"'

Yeah I just mean don't unnecessarily piss off people who can ruin your weekend on a whim with no recourse.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740000)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:02 PM
Author: Shabba Ranks

disagree, its often a designation they give to someone they seem as valuable who is sufficiently senior that the 'associate' designation is embarrassing, but without the business case to make partner yet. the idea is for you to make the business case in a couple years or get out.

i do agree that there's not much to 'congratulate'. pay will be about the same as a senior associate, or even less at some firms who fuck counsel on bonuses.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739965)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:03 PM
Author: gromjoh

This could vary depending on your firm so we may just be interacting with different firm cultures. Where I'm from here in West Virginia, of counsel is never seen as a stepping stone to equity but YMMV

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739976)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:04 PM
Author: Shabba Ranks

yeah things are a bit different here in surabaya, indonesia

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41739999)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:05 PM
Author: gromjoh



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740002)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:23 PM
Author: '""'""'""

Didn't realize BIGLAW in West Virginia worked that way. Here in our firm's Hulunbuir, Mongolia office, of counsel is seen as quite a big deal.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741224)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:06 PM
Author: Sex & Love Addict

Depends entirely on the firm. Many firms use it at a rest stop that costs them nothing but if you really want partner you'll work your ass off for two years.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740023)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:10 PM
Author: gromjoh

I think we just have a different ranking system than most. Our lowest level attorneys are known as "Acolytes," then you have your standard associates who will be allowed to stay on as long as they pass their Test by Christmas Eve of their fifth year at the Firm. Those who aren't viewed as worthy of the Test will be pushed over into the Of Counsel group. If you pass the Test you become a Ringbearer and among those are the Sacred Five who, together, manage the business of the Firm. At the tail-end of your time as a Ringbearer if you've survived to your twenty-fifth year you may become an Of Counsel or, in very special instances, a Brother. This structure has been in place as long as I've been at the Firm, coming on my twelfth year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740069)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:11 PM
Author: Richard, from England



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740085)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:02 PM
Author: bowlcut autist



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741103)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:51 AM
Author: dha tux ( )



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743764)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:40 AM
Author: A Jurisprudence is Performed

even if it's "just to be polite" you should do it anyway

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743715)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:47 AM
Author: I'm gay tp

Hmmm, link?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743742)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 10:28 AM
Author: A Jurisprudence is Performed

https://emilypost.com/advice/reacting-of-counsel-promotion

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744258)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 10:41 AM
Author: I'm gay tp



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744376)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 10:53 AM
Author: Shabba Ranks



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744458)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 12:54 PM
Author: gromjoh



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745373)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:05 PM
Author: Judas Jones

He was Of Counsel of Blank Rome!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740005)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:06 PM
Author: Non sequitur



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740012)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:14 PM
Author: lamarcus



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740113)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:07 PM
Author: Candy Ride



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741125)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:42 AM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

The teen model said to her friend. Her friend nodded approvingly, obviously impressed.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743724)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 11:49 AM
Author: ;::;:;;\'\';:::\'.,:...:::;




(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744857)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 1:46 PM
Author: lamarcus

Imagining RSF as Ptolemy XIII (the child pharaoh) in that scene

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745773)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 5:05 PM
Author: CapTTTainFalcon

"Thank you for your service!"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41740006)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:07 PM
Author: Candy Ride

Of Counsel, my Counsel!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741124)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:43 AM
Author: '"'""'"''"'



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743726)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:16 PM
Author: Candy Ride

Aye aye, Counsel!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741160)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:25 PM
Author: dha tux ( )



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741234)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 11:48 AM
Author: '"'""'"''"'



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744854)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:24 PM
Author: Hombre MMMXII (❄️defund the FBI❄️)

Completely depends on the person and the firm. As noted above, more and more biglaw firms are using counsel as a landing space between senior associate and partner. At some shops it’s like a non-equity partner, and maybe you have 2-3 years to build a book or otherwise prove to the powers that be that you’re partner material.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741225)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 12th, 2021 8:32 PM
Author: Treasonous Terrorist Trumpmos (TTT)

Yes bc none of you are equity material so best you can hope for. You’re congratulating future you!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41741281)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 1:37 AM
Author: ,..,,,,,,....,,,...,

Some people quit within the year after making counsel because they see it as a slap in the face.

Some people retire as a counsel 30 years later.

Some people make partner 1-2 years later when someone else dies/retires/laterals out and the firm realizes that if they don't give equity they won't have a partner who does X or works regularly for client Y.

You have to guess which category the person falls into to give them the right response. If you aren't sure, assume they are in category 3 because that is the most flattering to them and they can correct subtly or not if you have missed the mark.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743084)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 13th, 2021 8:23 AM
Author: Judas Jones

I see myself as a Cat. 2 low T lifetime OC

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743678)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 8:46 AM
Author: Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities

<><><>NOBREAKFAST<><><>

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41743736)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 11:51 AM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

For those that went through this, how did you feel? I didn't stick around biglaw but a part of me thinks if I did and ended up "of counsel" I'd be horrified that I put in all that effort and only got that consolation prize. On the other hand, I'd be sort of thrilled the gunning is over. Still another part of me would want to gtfo because fuck this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744871)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 11:54 AM
Author: Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities

The gunning is not really over though. Of counsel can sometimes be a resting place for service practitioners that are in groups that don't make $$$. Other times it just means a weigh-station on the path to likely unemployment.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744898)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:02 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Isn't that sort of shrugworthy and you either start looking on your own or wait until the talk? Does gunning really even make sense in that situation?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744971)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:08 PM
Author: .,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.


Most law firms are absolutely miserable at giving feedback and telling people where they actually stand in terms of partnership. At my V10, they implemented a supposed overhaul to give more feedback earlier on in careers. It did nothing. People were still getting told they were doing “everything right” years 6-9 and then getting “the talk” dropped on them at year 10 when it is harder to find a good job. It’s ridiculous.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745019)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:09 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Yes, but partnerships is generally off the table once you get "counseled" (I know a few that made it from Of Counsel to partner, but I know that's the exception rather than the rule).

So what's the incentive to gun?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745034)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:19 PM
Author: .,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.


The incentive is to make partner the first time around. Or if you are in the ~15-20% who might make the leap from counsel to partner.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745107)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:29 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Yeah I get that. I'm talking once that ship has sailed.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745184)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:03 PM
Author: Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities

Depends on the firm. At many firms counsel is now essentially a required pit stop.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745451)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:12 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Really? Isn't that usually what "non-equity partner" is for?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745536)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:14 PM
Author: Exploiter of vaginal and vulvar insecurities

Varies. Some firms don't have nonequity partners so they use of counsel as a de facto nonequity class. Others have all three stages, LMAO.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745549)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:14 PM
Author: Shabba Ranks

some firms dont have that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745550)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 2:39 PM
Author: A Jurisprudence is Performed

My firm had of counsel- non equity - equity although I know one person who went straight from associate to non equity.

They secretly guarded who was equity and who was non equity although some partners would just tell you

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41746245)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 6:22 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Interesting. That sort of makes sense since it keeps everyone maximally gunning and thinking they have a shot at the next rung as opposed to the "if you're awesome you go straight to non-equity and if you're not good enough but not worth firing you'll be a counsel."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41747839)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:05 PM
Author: .,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.


It’s crushing. Didn’t happen to me, but everyone who has stayed at a V10 from my law school is still a senior associate or an “of counsel,” and I’m 10+ years out of law school at a T20 school. Folks who went lower down the vault rankings mostly have fought it out and are now non-equity junior “partners.”

Your reaction depends on what your specific situation is. If you are told hang out here for a year or two and you can be put up for partner if the economy is still good, you may still hold out hope, though plenty of people in that situation (probably the majority) have been screwed over before.

If you are told you’re a great performer, but they don’t see business development potential and you can stick around as long as you want? That hurts, but most of the people affected by this saw it coming and they are introverts who just like doing deals or writing briefs. For what it is worth, it is almost impossible to make partner at another firm if you end up in that situation without almost immediately lateraling way down the Vault ladder (like 50+ spots). I knew someone from my V10 who was going to be counseled and this person made partner at a firm like Norton Rose/Reed Smith/Ballard Spahr like a month later. This person is now in a leadership position at that firm and makes more than he or she would have at the V10, lol.

This is a good example of why the business of law is so fucking stupid. They get rid of good performers who are making them a ton of money for essentially no reason. (Why fire a 10th year bringing in $2MM of revenue who costs you less than $600K in overhead? They are no different than the scores of service partners in biglaw except they were born too late and don’t even expect to be treated like partners/allowed to vote on things.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41744996)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:13 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Agree and good points.

"This is a good example of why the business of law is so fucking stupid. They get rid of good performers who are making them a ton of money for essentially no reason. (Why fire a 10th year bringing in $2MM of revenue who costs you less than $600K in overhead? They are no different than the scores of service partners in biglaw except they were born too late and don’t even expect to be treated like partners/allowed to vote on things.)"

The answer there is that there's no reason not to. That money isn't lost, these people are just replaced because they are fungible. Clients don't really care that one worker bee got replaced by another. And if he was the relationship person for a major client then either 1. he would have left to that client before it got to this point, or 2. he would have made partner.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745058)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:22 PM
Author: .,.,,...;.;,.,.,:,,:,...,:;:,...,:,.,.:..:.,:.::,.


They generally are replaced by more junior associates who they bill out for less money. There is at least some revenue lost, and it is more stress handing stuff over to new people who don’t know what they are doing rather than having skilled counsel around who know how to run cases and avoid fuckups that could make you look bad with the client.

I still just don’t understand why they don’t keep good career people around who are not interested in making partnership. I think the conventional wisdom is that those people would later agitate for partnership or something, but now that partnership has become so much rarer for the V10, that seems really unlikely. (With partners already facing de-equitzation for having bad years, etc., no one wants to be a partner without a book of business these days, and the partners with books are taking an ever bigger share of the pie.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745131)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:28 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

That's the model. It is up or out. The reason goes back to my point which is that it makes little sense to keep some someone who is in a position where it makes sense to coast. Yes, that junior knows less and bills less per hour but will put in 60+ hours a week because they're still in the game

In better times (decades ago) partners would go out of their way to set up people in their positions at clients and in return they would funnel work to them. At this point, they don't have the clout to do that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745180)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:49 PM
Author: gromjoh

The answer to your question is increasingly they don't. We want these people to stick around for a long time. Up or out is dying and being replaced by "up and stuck." Super senior associates / service partners / of counsel juice the revenue and allow PPP to keep increasing. Plenty of partnerships have realized this and realized the old up or out approach wasn't working. The biggest downside is morale and signaling -- you need to keep these people motivated when they're never going to make equity and you also need to be somewhat opaque about the model to keep superstudy first years churning through the ranks despite the fact they're never going to make equity.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745351)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:13 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

But there aren't enough counsel positions to go to all senior associates that don't make partner, and every year there are new people that you want to consider for counsel positions. So in effect, I don't see how you eliminate up or out.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745548)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:27 PM
Author: gromjoh

The natural attrition at most biglaw firms is very, very strong. There may not be strictly enough spots to place every single last senior associate who wants to stay, but it's close. You're never going to get a top-heavy model because too many people just want out at some point, especially women.

Up or out was premised on the idea that good attorneys made equity and bad ones didn't and so you wanted to cleanse the firm of anyone not fit for the partnership because they were going to be a net negative for the business of the firm. If you were "out" in 1985 it was because there was something seriously wrong in some facet--personality, skills, conflicts &c. That just isn't the case anymore; the modern V25 equity model just can't (or won't) support the same "win rate" for movement into the equity partnership which means there are plenty of good attorneys who are profit sources and represent the firm just fine but are never going to get breakfast. It started to dawn on partnerships about 15 years ago that these people were a resource and that it was stupid to continue to push a model (up or out) that didn't fit the business realities of 21st century biglaw.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745645)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 12:53 PM
Author: gromjoh

I've seen people take the "of counsel" / "you're not going to make partner, but please stay forever" very differently depending on their career and life outlook. It kills the people who gunned hard for equity--you can see something snap in them and a lot of them wash out a few years after because they're disaffected. On the other hand, there are some bros (and increasingly women) who never really gunned hard for partnership and view making 400k-600k for the rest of their life in exchange for briefing / deposing / running deals at 2200 hours a year as a fine bargain.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745371)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 1:14 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'

Makes sense. Ty.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41745552)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 5:15 PM
Author: Sex & Love Addict

Brutal Norton Rose neg.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41747361)



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Date: January 13th, 2021 6:22 PM
Author: '"'""'"''"'



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4737754&forum_id=2#41747841)