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irony of Caesar's death is he still respected republican power structures; Octav

ian did not. Caesar saw the flaws in the system and sought ...
copper menage
  01/19/21
Based on my rusty memory and a quick reread of wikipedia, th...
Vibrant double fault
  01/21/21
This is all answered down-thread and you're wrong. Sorry fo...
copper menage
  09/02/22
So how is he different from Sulla?
Cerebral Cuckold Dilemma
  01/21/21
I have been watching this long form lecture series on the Ro...
Swollen Umber School Legend
  01/19/21
Let me build on this: The idiocy of Caesar's assassins, thei...
copper menage
  01/19/21
I don't get why they went ahead and did it without even plan...
Swollen Umber School Legend
  01/19/21
That's all a piece of it, isn't it. You can just feel the d...
copper menage
  01/19/21
...
floppy senate
  01/19/21
>You can just feel the dweebish energy in the room ...
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/19/21
we're still waiting on a response to this
Vivacious locus factory reset button
  12/08/22
Team is working on it. Will circle back.
copper menage
  12/08/22
because by the 1st c. BC your average senator was sort of a ...
swashbuckling cerise codepig plaza
  01/21/21
...
Vivacious locus factory reset button
  12/08/22
It's a great insight if I do say so myself. There's the ske...
copper menage
  12/08/22
link to the lecture series?
seedy jap
  01/19/21
...
Confused adventurous tanning salon preventive strike
  01/19/21
...
fuchsia stead
  01/20/21
Not the lecture series OP is talking about, but excellent ne...
pungent chapel ceo
  01/20/21
bumping a scholarly thread
Insane Circlehead
  01/19/21
It's quite upsetting to me.
copper menage
  01/19/21
(Mommsen)
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/19/21
His history is absolutely magisterial.
Red galvanic bbw ape
  01/20/21
What especially puzzles me is that if I remember correctly, ...
henna macaca
  01/19/21
Very good comment. Caesar was definitely preparing to invad...
copper menage
  01/19/21
Also, after the humiliation that Crassus suffered vs. Parthi...
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/19/21
The legionary loyalty thing is so important. If word had go...
copper menage
  01/19/21
And to add to this - the experiences of Caesar and his "...
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/19/21
Octavian though was more meticulous & still maintained t...
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/19/21
Octavian drew lessons from what happened to Caesar which the...
copper menage
  01/19/21
I mean yeah I agree w/ you w/r/t Cato & Cicero and their...
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/19/21
This. OP is wrong about Augustus. Not hitler at all and was ...
Vibrant double fault
  01/21/21
Hitler: 3rd Reich lasted what, 12 years? Augustus: His p...
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  01/21/21
great poast
cyan provocative mad cow disease step-uncle's house
  01/21/21
egregious Julia trolling, but otherwise sounds pretty cr
Insane Circlehead
  01/19/21
...
copper menage
  12/08/22
...
beta queen of the night location
  01/19/21
...
fishy histrionic community account internal respiration
  01/19/21
...
glittery narrow-minded lodge
  01/19/21
He knew that they were going to kill him and let him do it. ...
Red galvanic bbw ape
  01/19/21
This is a fascinating idea.
fishy histrionic community account internal respiration
  01/20/21
It's got to be right, if you look at the dates and the stori...
Red galvanic bbw ape
  01/20/21
holy shit
fishy histrionic community account internal respiration
  01/20/21
...
fishy histrionic community account internal respiration
  01/20/21
yeah i think hegel sort of said something about this or zize...
cyan provocative mad cow disease step-uncle's house
  01/20/21
Thesis and antithesis
Milky quadroon
  01/21/21
Still think you're needlessly disparaging Augustus/Octavian
purple passionate corn cake cumskin
  02/11/21
...
copper menage
  09/02/22
...
crusty beady-eyed sanctuary ladyboy
  12/08/22


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 8:12 AM
Author: copper menage

ian did not. Caesar saw the flaws in the system and sought to remedy them through a necessary accumulation of power but he was never trying to fundamentally recast Roman power structures, though some of that may necessarily have occurred in the process of the remediation. Octavian (nee Hitler) simply did not give a fuck; he was a tabula rasa new world order autocrat and a conniving one at that. Caesar's assassins brought about the exact world they sought to stave off in their foolishness.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41781990)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 1:19 AM
Author: Vibrant double fault

Based on my rusty memory and a quick reread of wikipedia, this is utter bullshit. The two main things that set the empire apart from the republic was "emperor(s)" having indefinite imperium over everyone, hence the name, and using the tribune powers to control the legislative agenda, and this already happened under Caesar and the first triumvrate. Before those powers were split between the senate, tribunes, consuls, and proconsuls in the provinces. Augustus did the exact same thing but longer, and without partners after falling out with Anthony. Both Ceasar and Augustus bent the law about the same. Not an expert so tell me why this is wrong.

See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_reforms_of_Augustus

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41796301)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 2nd, 2022 12:05 PM
Author: copper menage

This is all answered down-thread and you're wrong. Sorry for the delay in my response. Thanks.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45109787)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 6:24 AM
Author: Cerebral Cuckold Dilemma

So how is he different from Sulla?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41796815)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 8:21 AM
Author: Swollen Umber School Legend

I have been watching this long form lecture series on the Roman empire on youtube that dedicates about two or three hours to each major emperor. Caesar's assassins absolutely goofed. The assassination made all of the problems they were concerned about worse and most of them ended up being legally murdered by Caesar loyalists. This one conspirator, Trebonious, was caught by one of Caesar's friends and tortured with hot irons for 48 hours before finally being killed.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782006)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 8:30 AM
Author: copper menage

Let me build on this: The idiocy of Caesar's assassins, their lack of foresight, their inability to engage in good mental accounting of what might occur after they killed the people's champion, is all totally emblematic of the problems that Caesar identified with the old elite class generally and the Senate specifically. In other words, it doesn't really surprise me that they misestimated the situation and fucked up, ultimately in a huge way to bring about Octavian, because by the 1st c. BC your average senator was sort of a fuck up, soft, out of touch with the people, incapable of reform, frequently corrupted, living in a fantasy. Caesar recognized this and recognized that these deficits of the Senate and lack of reform of governing structure were a major reason for the tumult of the 1st c. and was working to remedy the situation. But he still loved the game. What Augusts gave lip service to, the idea of being simply a first among equals, Caesar actually strove for--he wanted to be recognized within the context of the extant Roman power apparatus even as he sought to reform it. Every single one of his assassins deserved the fate they got and worse: they had a good thing, they were being invited to participate in a re-architecting of the state, and they fucked it up.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782019)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 8:38 AM
Author: Swollen Umber School Legend

I don't get why they went ahead and did it without even planning for what would replace Caesar. That alone was retarded, never mind the fact that they'd not get away with killing such a popular leader. I guess you could expect the Senatorial class to not know how popular Caesar was given they were out of touch and whatnot. But how do they miss something as obvious as planning for succession?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782039)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 8:43 AM
Author: copper menage

That's all a piece of it, isn't it. You can just feel the dweebish energy in the room as they plotted to kill one of history's great men and completely misunderstood the operative dynamics of the political situation. I genuinely believe that they believed that it was going to unfold with their being lauded as "Restorers of the Republic" and then the Senate would get back to its ordinary business of running the Republic. It's a perspective that's fully blind to what had been happening over the past decades among competing elites as well as the prevailing popular sentiment but in a way you need them to have that illusion to explain how they could have thought it was a good idea in the first place; in other words, a better thinking, less naively idealistic group wouldn't have gone ahead with Caesar's assassination in the first instance.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782054)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 2:32 PM
Author: floppy senate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41784186)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 5:51 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

>You can just feel the dweebish energy in the room

RATE HBO ROME's characterization of Mark Antony as the frat boy and Brutus as the nebbish boarding school aristocrat who got bullied by the athletic CHADs

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785601)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2022 10:50 PM
Author: Vivacious locus factory reset button

we're still waiting on a response to this

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45606878)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2022 10:54 PM
Author: copper menage

Team is working on it. Will circle back.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45606897)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 12:05 AM
Author: swashbuckling cerise codepig plaza

because by the 1st c. BC your average senator was sort of a fuck up, soft, out of touch with the people, incapable of reform, frequently corrupted, living in a fantasy.

Fuck. Sounds like 2021

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41795927)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2022 10:49 PM
Author: Vivacious locus factory reset button



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45606872)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2022 10:55 PM
Author: copper menage

It's a great insight if I do say so myself. There's the skeleton of a book in this thread.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45606902)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 8:48 AM
Author: seedy jap

link to the lecture series?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782061)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 5:43 PM
Author: Confused adventurous tanning salon preventive strike



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785532)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 4:55 PM
Author: fuchsia stead



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41793248)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 11:16 PM
Author: pungent chapel ceo

Not the lecture series OP is talking about, but excellent nevertheless. Here is the latest episode in Octavian's saga:

https://youtu.be/8rt67AqrR74

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41795615)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 11:03 AM
Author: Insane Circlehead

bumping a scholarly thread

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782697)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 1:11 PM
Author: copper menage

It's quite upsetting to me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783590)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 5:53 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

(Mommsen)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785612)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 4:59 PM
Author: Red galvanic bbw ape

His history is absolutely magisterial.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41793282)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 1:21 PM
Author: henna macaca

What especially puzzles me is that if I remember correctly, Caesar was about to leave Rome for a military campaign against the Parthians and the Germanic tribes. Caesar was a very successful military leader, but given Rome's history battling either of those groups, he was probably about to bite off a lot more than he could chew. Even if these military campaigns were successful, he was going to be gone from Rome for a long time and would probably be far less relevant politically while he was out of town. It seems like it would have been far easier to just jockey for power against Caesar's lackeys while he was bogged down in the Middle East.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783669)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 1:43 PM
Author: copper menage

Very good comment. Caesar was definitely preparing to invade Parthia--as in he was mere days away from embarking on that campaign when he was assassinated. (Whether he was going to do an even more ambitious campaign that would have also involved places like Dacia, Scythia, and Germania is the subject of debate among classicists as that wider plan is attested to in some but not other of the sources and may just be mythologizing; I tend to fall on the side of it was going to be a strictly Parthian campaign but there are decent arguments both ways.)

Caesar's decision to announce a Parthian campaign was very calculated and very much based on his read of the situation in Rome rather than being dictated by any external conditions out east. Caesar knew that his most effective playbook was to go out and wage war, further his treasury and the loyalty of his veteran legions, and then come back enriched and further empowered as the conquering hero. This had worked effectively for him time and again and he was seeking to replay this to further cement his leadership when he would return to Rome in response to the slipping political situation. (Caesar had shown repeatedly that he was able to return to Rome and re-insert himself into politics effectively, in part because of his practice of inserting his "men" into the governance structures while he was away, so he would have likely been unconcerned about being away from the City for a time.)

Authorizing the war would have also have had the benefit of giving Caesar an always-on bodyguard as a general in the field that would have rendered him essentially impervious to attack versus the situation in Rome where he was essentially wandering around unguarded in deference to the deep republican antipathy to any sign of militarizing the city.

The assassins were stupid as we've discussed up-thread, but they weren't *that* stupid--they'd seen Caesar do this numerous times before by this point and they presumably perceived this as a possible last moment to intervene before he left the City for a year or more and came back stronger and more popular still on his return. In other words, they presumably saw this as their last chance to act.

(How successful Caesar actually would have been against the Parthians is the subject of endless counterfactual history debate. I tend to fall on the side that he would have rocked them badly and that his being able to wage that campaign would have been a major historical hinge point.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783826)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 1:47 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

Also, after the humiliation that Crassus suffered vs. Parthia at the battle of Carrhae, Caesar HAD to show something vs. Parthia.

And a victory there would've really cemented Caesar's status, even if his jockeys would backstab him in Rome while he's in the Middle East- had he won, w/ the loyalty of the legions there would be no more political willpower to really remove Caesar

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783853)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 2:29 PM
Author: copper menage

The legionary loyalty thing is so important. If word had gotten to Legio X that Brutus and the rest of them were planning on assassinating Caesar, they would have re-formed in Gaul and marched on the city, along with any other number of legions, including those that were active for the upcoming Parthian campaign. Caesar's mistake was in assigning too much good faith to a bad faith bunch; the idea of senators trying to assassinate him defenselessly in a curia in the midst of a session was just beyond the realm of conception to him. Let's compare that to what Augustus did with his transformation of the Praetorian Guard as well as his Germanic personal bodyguard. They thought fundamentally differently, didn't they--the lion vs. the snake.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41784172)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 5:50 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

And to add to this - the experiences of Caesar and his "clementia" probably was THE reason why Augustus chose that path.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785594)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 1:30 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

Octavian though was more meticulous & still maintained that facade of the Republic for a while though

"returned" his powers to the Senate, and instead of installing himself as "dictator perpetuo" - "dictator in perpetuity" like Caesar, Octavian/Augustus took the meticulous steps to make it seem like he's voluntarily letting go of his powers.

Augustus just slyly said, "alright, I'll give you guys back the office of Consulship but no worries I'll just stay as commander-in-chief, and hold legislative powers via the Tribunus plebis potestas"

Basically Caesar was less subtle - he made himself an open target by declaring himself dictator for life - Dictator Perpetuo unlike Octavian/Augustus.

Caesar's equivalent would be if someone declared themselves as to be President for Life, whereas Augustus laid down his office of the presidency, but kept his command of the military, also was the chief justice, and had Veto powers thanks to him getting the rights of the Tribune of the Plebs which was a regular office that was closed to the Patricians in the Republic.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783723)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 2:01 PM
Author: copper menage

Octavian drew lessons from what happened to Caesar which then informed his subsequent conduct. The essential difference between the two men is that Caesar at the end of the day was probably an institutionalist (republican) but he was an institutionalist who recognized that the old ways were no longer effective and he was willing to do as he desired and thought necessary to reform the state, including through massive accumulation of power into his own hands and defying various conventions (restrictions on citizenship for example). As you say, Caesar was a *patrician* (not just any patrician but a Julia); he was brought up to admire and seek for the highest rungs of the Roman political system. Also, he was quite cunning and sophisticated about political matters but he wasn't conniving or dissembling like Octavian. Caesar might at the end of the day have ended up destroying the form of republican government (or might not) but that certainly wasn't his outright goal and he had a deep admiration for the Roman state in its potential though not its execution by the time of the 1st c. To cut to the quick here, you get the sense that he saw the senatorial bunch as a flock of fools by the 40s with Cicero and Cato off giving speeches about the purity of republican values as the whole apparatus teetered and they couldn't even manage to keep to a calendar.

Octavian was an entirely different and scarier breed (while simultaneously being a much lesser figure as far as military ability and his gens). He had the sort of mind that made him desire to do as you reference in your comment, i.e., totally usurp the extant power structure while maintaining the façade of its existence--it reminds me of those insects which parasitically take over the brains of wasps and then keep them alive and direct their movements. From the perspective of political conservatism, he was much more dangerous than Caesar had ever been as we see ex post facto from the centuries of imperial rule that came out of his tenure.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783969)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 5:39 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

I mean yeah I agree w/ you w/r/t Cato & Cicero and their ilk, but I'm not entirely convinced that Caesar had a masterplan in mind, but rather operating in the new norms brought by the Marian Reforms & Sulla's Civil War.

The seeds were already there when the new legionaries were loyal to their leader and had a patrones-clientes relationship w/ the commander, creating a personal army for ambitious men.

Did Caesar have a master plan to overturn/greatly reform the Republic? Or was Caesar as Dictator Perpetuo just the place he ended up in as he maneuvered various political shit thrown at him?

Octavian was honestly a better *politician* imo than Caesar for precisely the reasons why you seem to be disparaging him. He was able to maneuver through these longstanding ideals of Republicanism and the allergic reaction the public had with the idea of a monarch (Rex) and create a rather long-lasting political tradition from scratch.

(Though there's PLENTY to criticize about how he also added to future instability by creating such an ad-hoc thatchwork of political offices that there was no clear line of succession)



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785504)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 1:35 AM
Author: Vibrant double fault

This. OP is wrong about Augustus. Not hitler at all and was a great statesman. Republic was already fucked by Marius and Sulla.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41796384)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 3:39 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

Hitler: 3rd Reich lasted what, 12 years?

Augustus: His political system (and its instability) lasted for at least 300 years until Diocletian reforms, and even then the elements of Republicanism in the Roman state that created a much different character in Roman/Byzantine Emperors compared the post-Roman monarchies in medieval Europe lasted until the fall of Constantinople in 1453

And the best part is that Octavian/Augustus was thrown onto the political arena at the age of 18 as Caesar was assassinated, and played the big names of the era, much older and experienced than him like a fiddle.

The way he used Cicero was just ridiculous. The way he postured himself politically despite his lacking military prowess vs. Mark Antony was masterful



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41799511)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 1:36 AM
Author: cyan provocative mad cow disease step-uncle's house

great poast

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41796390)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 6:59 PM
Author: Insane Circlehead

egregious Julia trolling, but otherwise sounds pretty cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785994)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 8th, 2022 10:47 PM
Author: copper menage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45606853)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 3:45 PM
Author: beta queen of the night location



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41784683)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 3:49 PM
Author: fishy histrionic community account internal respiration



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41784701)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 19th, 2021 3:49 PM
Author: glittery narrow-minded lodge



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41784703)



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Date: January 19th, 2021 5:52 PM
Author: Red galvanic bbw ape

He knew that they were going to kill him and let him do it. He was a secular model for Jesus Christ.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785606)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 1:38 AM
Author: fishy histrionic community account internal respiration

This is a fascinating idea.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41788511)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 3:45 PM
Author: Red galvanic bbw ape

It's got to be right, if you look at the dates and the stories, but they don't want you to know.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41792706)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 11:12 PM
Author: fishy histrionic community account internal respiration

holy shit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41795573)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 1:38 AM
Author: fishy histrionic community account internal respiration



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41788510)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 20th, 2021 1:39 AM
Author: cyan provocative mad cow disease step-uncle's house

yeah i think hegel sort of said something about this or zizek said hegel did

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41788516)



Reply Favorite

Date: January 21st, 2021 1:38 AM
Author: Milky quadroon

Thesis and antithesis

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41796395)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 11th, 2021 12:41 PM
Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin

Still think you're needlessly disparaging Augustus/Octavian

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41926603)



Reply Favorite

Date: September 2nd, 2022 12:04 PM
Author: copper menage



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45109781)



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Date: December 8th, 2022 10:56 PM
Author: crusty beady-eyed sanctuary ladyboy



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#45606908)