irony of Caesar's death is he still respected republican power structures; Octav
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Date: January 21st, 2021 1:19 AM Author: Vibrant double fault
Based on my rusty memory and a quick reread of wikipedia, this is utter bullshit. The two main things that set the empire apart from the republic was "emperor(s)" having indefinite imperium over everyone, hence the name, and using the tribune powers to control the legislative agenda, and this already happened under Caesar and the first triumvrate. Before those powers were split between the senate, tribunes, consuls, and proconsuls in the provinces. Augustus did the exact same thing but longer, and without partners after falling out with Anthony. Both Ceasar and Augustus bent the law about the same. Not an expert so tell me why this is wrong.
See:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_reforms_of_Augustus
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41796301) |
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Date: January 19th, 2021 8:30 AM Author: copper menage
Let me build on this: The idiocy of Caesar's assassins, their lack of foresight, their inability to engage in good mental accounting of what might occur after they killed the people's champion, is all totally emblematic of the problems that Caesar identified with the old elite class generally and the Senate specifically. In other words, it doesn't really surprise me that they misestimated the situation and fucked up, ultimately in a huge way to bring about Octavian, because by the 1st c. BC your average senator was sort of a fuck up, soft, out of touch with the people, incapable of reform, frequently corrupted, living in a fantasy. Caesar recognized this and recognized that these deficits of the Senate and lack of reform of governing structure were a major reason for the tumult of the 1st c. and was working to remedy the situation. But he still loved the game. What Augusts gave lip service to, the idea of being simply a first among equals, Caesar actually strove for--he wanted to be recognized within the context of the extant Roman power apparatus even as he sought to reform it. Every single one of his assassins deserved the fate they got and worse: they had a good thing, they were being invited to participate in a re-architecting of the state, and they fucked it up.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41782019) |
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Date: January 19th, 2021 5:51 PM Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin
>You can just feel the dweebish energy in the room
RATE HBO ROME's characterization of Mark Antony as the frat boy and Brutus as the nebbish boarding school aristocrat who got bullied by the athletic CHADs
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785601) |
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Date: January 19th, 2021 1:43 PM Author: copper menage
Very good comment. Caesar was definitely preparing to invade Parthia--as in he was mere days away from embarking on that campaign when he was assassinated. (Whether he was going to do an even more ambitious campaign that would have also involved places like Dacia, Scythia, and Germania is the subject of debate among classicists as that wider plan is attested to in some but not other of the sources and may just be mythologizing; I tend to fall on the side of it was going to be a strictly Parthian campaign but there are decent arguments both ways.)
Caesar's decision to announce a Parthian campaign was very calculated and very much based on his read of the situation in Rome rather than being dictated by any external conditions out east. Caesar knew that his most effective playbook was to go out and wage war, further his treasury and the loyalty of his veteran legions, and then come back enriched and further empowered as the conquering hero. This had worked effectively for him time and again and he was seeking to replay this to further cement his leadership when he would return to Rome in response to the slipping political situation. (Caesar had shown repeatedly that he was able to return to Rome and re-insert himself into politics effectively, in part because of his practice of inserting his "men" into the governance structures while he was away, so he would have likely been unconcerned about being away from the City for a time.)
Authorizing the war would have also have had the benefit of giving Caesar an always-on bodyguard as a general in the field that would have rendered him essentially impervious to attack versus the situation in Rome where he was essentially wandering around unguarded in deference to the deep republican antipathy to any sign of militarizing the city.
The assassins were stupid as we've discussed up-thread, but they weren't *that* stupid--they'd seen Caesar do this numerous times before by this point and they presumably perceived this as a possible last moment to intervene before he left the City for a year or more and came back stronger and more popular still on his return. In other words, they presumably saw this as their last chance to act.
(How successful Caesar actually would have been against the Parthians is the subject of endless counterfactual history debate. I tend to fall on the side that he would have rocked them badly and that his being able to wage that campaign would have been a major historical hinge point.)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783826) |
Date: January 19th, 2021 1:30 PM Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin
Octavian though was more meticulous & still maintained that facade of the Republic for a while though
"returned" his powers to the Senate, and instead of installing himself as "dictator perpetuo" - "dictator in perpetuity" like Caesar, Octavian/Augustus took the meticulous steps to make it seem like he's voluntarily letting go of his powers.
Augustus just slyly said, "alright, I'll give you guys back the office of Consulship but no worries I'll just stay as commander-in-chief, and hold legislative powers via the Tribunus plebis potestas"
Basically Caesar was less subtle - he made himself an open target by declaring himself dictator for life - Dictator Perpetuo unlike Octavian/Augustus.
Caesar's equivalent would be if someone declared themselves as to be President for Life, whereas Augustus laid down his office of the presidency, but kept his command of the military, also was the chief justice, and had Veto powers thanks to him getting the rights of the Tribune of the Plebs which was a regular office that was closed to the Patricians in the Republic.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41783723)
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Date: January 19th, 2021 5:39 PM Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin
I mean yeah I agree w/ you w/r/t Cato & Cicero and their ilk, but I'm not entirely convinced that Caesar had a masterplan in mind, but rather operating in the new norms brought by the Marian Reforms & Sulla's Civil War.
The seeds were already there when the new legionaries were loyal to their leader and had a patrones-clientes relationship w/ the commander, creating a personal army for ambitious men.
Did Caesar have a master plan to overturn/greatly reform the Republic? Or was Caesar as Dictator Perpetuo just the place he ended up in as he maneuvered various political shit thrown at him?
Octavian was honestly a better *politician* imo than Caesar for precisely the reasons why you seem to be disparaging him. He was able to maneuver through these longstanding ideals of Republicanism and the allergic reaction the public had with the idea of a monarch (Rex) and create a rather long-lasting political tradition from scratch.
(Though there's PLENTY to criticize about how he also added to future instability by creating such an ad-hoc thatchwork of political offices that there was no clear line of succession)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41785504) |
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Date: January 21st, 2021 3:39 PM Author: purple passionate corn cake cumskin
Hitler: 3rd Reich lasted what, 12 years?
Augustus: His political system (and its instability) lasted for at least 300 years until Diocletian reforms, and even then the elements of Republicanism in the Roman state that created a much different character in Roman/Byzantine Emperors compared the post-Roman monarchies in medieval Europe lasted until the fall of Constantinople in 1453
And the best part is that Octavian/Augustus was thrown onto the political arena at the age of 18 as Caesar was assassinated, and played the big names of the era, much older and experienced than him like a fiddle.
The way he used Cicero was just ridiculous. The way he postured himself politically despite his lacking military prowess vs. Mark Antony was masterful
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4743148&forum_id=2#41799511)
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