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Financial advisor trying to get me to put my 401k balance into annuity
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Date: August 6th, 2024 12:30 AM Author: overrated plaza This is a reason to terminate this guy immediately, right?
I had no idea what an indexed annuity was before this, but after reading a bit about them I don’t see why the fuck anyone would take several hundred grand out of their 401k to buy this bullshit.
I was gonna ask him to explain why he is claiming this is a good move, but rather than that I think the cr us to immediately fire him and move on to someone who isn’t a salesperson looking for a commission. |
Date: August 6th, 2024 12:33 AM Author: Balding talented multi-billionaire cliffs on what you read? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47932941) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 12:35 AM Author: overrated plaza It seems that the annuity is tied to an index, such as the s&p, only there’s a cap on potential gains, for instance 7%. So if the index is up 32% you only get 7%, but if there’s a loss you just get 0%
I might be oversimplifying or even misunderstanding how this works, but no thanks.
And why would I put tax-advantaged retirement dollars into this? |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:23 AM Author: slate haunting pervert I would not invest in a product like this, as you have described it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933390) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:34 AM Author: overrated plaza i think the only person who would invest in it is someone who doesn't know anything about investing in equities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933401) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:16 AM Author: Lascivious School Personal Credit Line It seems like it might not be a terrible idea for someone retired or near retirement maybe, but retarded otherwise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933452) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:20 AM Author: hairraiser tattoo That's exactly who this is targeted at obvs
There is probably a much better and cheaper way to obtain a low risk low upside financial strategy (which is what this is) but many people are very drawn to the idea of "can't lose money" . Especially old people.
Its hard to argue against these things because there is a very smooth sales pitch. So what I try to tell people is that theyre not pushing this on you because they're making •less• money this way. That's probably the simplest way to state it without getting bogged down in details. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:58 AM Author: overrated plaza this is cr. i was thinking about this last night and it just doesn't add up that you give away hundreds of thousands and somehow do better than you would in the market, which is what the pitch sounds like. and of course it doesn't add up.
and after trying to figure out what these "investments" are and not being able to understand it, my conclusion was basically what you said - there's no way i give away like $700k and come out on top, so no. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 1:28 PM Author: Lascivious School Personal Credit Line It’s human nature to want to be overly biased toward loss aversion. They’re just preying on people that can’t grasp simple math. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934646) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 1:33 PM Author: overrated plaza as others have pointed out, these annuities probably make sense for some people. if i were closer to retirement, and this 700k was 10-20% of my total assets, then maybe, but this is like 40% of my and my wife's overall liquid net worth. retardation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934660) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:26 AM Author: floppy violent parlor french chef Cash balance works somewhat like that. Cap on gains about 5% or less. Whoever u delegate it to tends to invest part in s&p and part into bonds to keep it around that value. But the advantage is that you can put 100k+ into cash balance in addition to 401k(not instead). And every 7 years or so these plans terminate and then you can transfer it into 401k. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933750) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:10 AM Author: overrated plaza bumping for the morning crew. does anyone know what this index annuity shit is? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933375) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:16 AM Author: cocky adventurous liquid oxygen The market exists.
This product exists for a company to make money off of the difference between market returns and the stupidity of individual investors.
Might work out in your advantage given specific start and end dates. Will work out in their favor over the long run.
tldr; grab his kippah and run. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:28 AM Author: floppy violent parlor french chef Seems perfect client for this are cashbalance plans. I.e. most of them would be happy with 7%. But they are very much tax fldeferred and the purpose is to run them under 10yrs, then close and convert to 401k. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933759) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:13 AM Author: Carmine bbw Why are you using an advisor? At best, they’ll all just tell you to Buy High and never sell anything. At worst they do stupid shit like this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933378) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:28 AM Author: overrated plaza this has been correct. i know enough about investing to just put everything into index funds/etfs and if i keep doing that i'll probably retire with around $10 million.
this guy didn't really have anything to tell me except that i've fully funded college for my kids (i wasn't paying attention to that and didn't notice that i can pretty much stop now).
i guess all he has to offer is sales products where he will make a commission. all i have to do is roll one of my 401(k) balances over in its entirety! |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:18 AM Author: Rambunctious Free-loading Cruise Ship That does not sound like a product that I would be interested in, brother. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933387) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:20 AM Author: laughsome site (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933464) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 8:00 PM Author: overrated plaza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47954724) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:22 AM Author: Duck-like Base "Indexed Indexed annuities fall somewhere in between the fixed and variable choices when it comes to risk and potential reward. The buyer receives a guaranteed minimum payout but a portion of the return is tied to the performance of a market index, such as the S&P 500.
Despite their potential for greater earnings, variable and indexed annuities are often criticized for their relative complexity and the fees that are charged for them. For example, there can be steep surrender charges if the buyer chooses to withdraw their money within the first few years of the contract."
I do not understand why anyone would ever get a non-fixed annuity. If you're taking on market risk, then just sell off shares on your own. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 3:42 PM Author: Gold mood The buyers for these are olds who would otherwise stick the full amount in t-bills earning 3.7%. The annuity effectively has a T-bill risk profile while getting you 6%. This is not for young people who should be in equities.
Ultra rich fuckers can also benefit from annuities under certain tax strategies that have no significance for normals. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:24 AM Author: costumed obsidian haunted graveyard pit Why do you have a (((financial advisor))) in the first place? Just dollar cost average into low fee index funds and let do. VOO is my favorite but there are plenty of others. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933391) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:26 AM Author: Rambunctious Free-loading Cruise Ship Probably because he is Gen X. We need cowgod to weigh in here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933394) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 3:32 PM Author: Carmine bbw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935226) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:30 AM Author: overrated plaza this is what i've always done. i figured there must be something i was missing so i paid this guy a couple grand to look at my situation, and this is the result.
i thought there might be ONE WEIRD TRICK that i was missing with respect to investing/tax shit.
money well spent, in a sense, because i know i'm doing everything right, including not buying an annuity. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:34 AM Author: cocky adventurous liquid oxygen Go spend some time reading bogleheads forum. All you seek and it’s free. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933403) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:42 AM Author: overrated plaza i know all that stuff and have for 20+ years. i thought i might be missing something but nope. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933410) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:26 AM Author: Curious up-to-no-good shrine What financial advisors can do to people is scary and should be illegal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933393) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:52 PM Author: Thirsty forum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935637) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:31 AM Author: Multi-colored Pearl Candlestick Maker I once read a practical rule that you should never enter into a financial product or agreement that the other side understands deeply and you don't. The context was financially unsophisticated startups agreeing to funding arrangements with sophisticated investment firms that had earnouts and options/convertible features severely in the investment firms' favor, but it almost certainly applies here as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933399) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:33 AM Author: overrated plaza it was pretty 180 how this guy introduced it. it was like this "thing" and you retire and it's in the s&p and you retire with $15 million, kinda like!
the whole time he was talking to me i was like what is this? can you explain? then i said i'd just look at the application when it got sent.
then it arrived this morning and i looked at it. it isn't even a fixed index annuity, it's a variable annuity. based on the very little i know, those are an outright scam. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:38 AM Author: Rambunctious Free-loading Cruise Ship Any financial advisor that starts talking about "retirement" is, quite frankly, a complete scam. Who the fuck wants to retire? These people are leaches and you are more qualified to advise= clients on their finances than he is. A good question to ask would be, "When do you plan to retire?" "Would you personally purchase this product? Why or why not? If yes, have you purchased this product already? Why or why not? What is the commission that you earn from selling this product? Is it annual or one time? Why won't you disclose that information to me?" |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:43 AM Author: overrated plaza lol at asking these questions, the guy would lie through his teeth and say he's purchased it and he's even sold it to his grandmother. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933411) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:44 AM Author: Rambunctious Free-loading Cruise Ship Just put him through his paces man. Watch his countenance. If he lies smoothly, make some gross generalizations about his race, national origin, and religion. Then come poast on xo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933414) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:48 AM Author: overrated plaza that would be 180, not gonna lie, but i'm just going to ghost him. not even sure i'm going to bother telling him "no thanks" on this annuity bullshit because i have no reason to talk to him or any other advisor again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933416) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:18 AM Author: Impertinent ungodly principal's office national security agency Cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933457) |
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Date: August 10th, 2024 11:16 PM Author: overrated plaza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47952340) |
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Date: August 13th, 2024 10:46 PM Author: crystalline stimulating box office (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47963767) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 12:30 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal Hospital Retiring when you are able to work is the most ridiculous thing that people buy into nowadays. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47937291) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:22 AM Author: hairraiser tattoo titcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933469) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:23 AM Author: Concupiscible kink-friendly range This sounds like a great idea. For the guy selling it, who will get a huge up front fee if you buy this shit.
And LOL you’d owe taxes and penalties for cashing out your 401k. No fucking way is this a good idea. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:02 AM Author: unhinged set old irish cottage Is this a buffered annuity? If so, they only eat the first 10-20% or so of indexed losses. If the S&P goes down to like 2500. You’re still eating most of it.
It caps your upside also (as you’re aware). These could potentially be a decent idea for someone in their late 50s who wants some growth while limiting downside, but even then, it’s a weak product IMO. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:02 AM Author: Buff jew Search Bogleheads and you will find a million threads on why indexed annuities are a complete scam (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933649) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:21 AM Author: overrated plaza yep i used to spend lots of time on bogleheads and that forum popped into my mind once i started thinking about this thing this guy was trying to sell me on.
he kept using the term "tiered par" but never said annunity, and i was unclear on what he even meant by any of it, and it wasn't clear to me that he was talking about me cashing out my 401k for some insurance bullshit. and of course he didn't come out and say that because anyone with any sense would just say no. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:30 AM Author: floppy violent parlor french chef Aren't u the guy that said he has sex with trannies. Why do u even care about retirement like someone with offspring? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933762) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 11:16 AM Author: overrated plaza yes, i regularly have sex with transpersons and i also have hiv. i have spread it around imo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933931) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 11:29 AM Author: overrated plaza this feels very "othering," what you have said to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934002) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:23 AM Author: floppy violent parlor french chef Why would u hire a financial advisor to begin with? Even on doctor forum I hear one guy say "my father was a financial advisor, I'd think doctors were smart enough to just invest into an index fund instead of giving out free money" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933735) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:30 AM Author: overrated plaza i said this above, but i pretty much follow the bogleheads method - index and forget about it, get rich.
i figured it was possible that since i'm pretty high income (HHI is around $550k), there might be some stuff i was missing. some kind of tax horseshit that i don't know about.
so this was money well spent ($2k IIRC) to confirm that i am not missing anything and i can just keep doing everything myself.
had a couple meetings with this dood, and basically it was a long, involved sales pitch for an annuity masquerading as a "financial plan." since i already know all the basics, he really had nothing to tell me. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 3:45 PM Author: Gold mood The problem with index investing is it's now a Ponzi scheme because of the disproportionate impact on the S&P 500 from the Magnificent 7. All the index fund fuckers are going to get obliterated because half their money is in 7 stocks. They are not diversified. They are actually fucked. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935325) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:17 PM Author: overrated plaza where are YOU putting ur money friend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935484) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:27 PM Author: Gold mood Real estate. My mother owns a minor empire of 10 rental properties and I have added two more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936484) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 4:14 PM Author: overrated plaza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47954147) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 10:34 AM Author: white striped hyena trailer park Yes, fire him immediately. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47933777) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 12:18 PM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate There's not much to say that hasn't been said already. Definitely fire his ass immediately, because he is trying to scam you. The only annuity it might make sense to buy is an immediate annuity, and that only makes sense if you are already retired or close to it. Variables annuities are always a total scam. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934340) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 12:30 PM Author: overrated plaza this experience has been really interesting. it's absolutely frightening what happens to uninformed people who don't know any better. most other people would just go along with this.
since he is worthless, i'll pose the question to xo. i have around 700k in an old 401k account that i never rolled over. cr to roll that into a vanguard nondeductible IRA and then convert the whole thing to a roth and pay like 75k in taxes? |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:38 PM Author: Diverse high-end legend kitchen No don't convert into roth/rollover
Make it a self managed fund and put in indexes. Best bet |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:41 PM Author: overrated plaza isn't there a huge tax benefit to me later of moving the funds from traditional to roth? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935599) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 12:42 AM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate If you are currently making $550k per year, this is almost certainly a bad strategy. The entire $700k balance will be taxed as ordinary income in your highest tax bracket. You will be paying far more than $75k in taxes. You will lose almost half of the balance to federal taxes alone.
The usual rule of thumb is that Roth is better than traditional if you expect to be in a higher tax bracket in retirement. That's definitely not the case for you if you are already in the highest bracket. Also, if you roll over a 401k to an IRA without converting the entire thing, then you will be permanently unable to do a backdoor Roth (at least not without paying extra tax due to the pro rata rule). Leaving the money where it is will most likely be the best option. |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 8:04 AM Author: overrated plaza this has added more value than the "financial advisor." i knew that about the IRA rollover, which is why i can't understand how it's even possible to roll over six figures in an IRA to a roth.
i highly doubt i'll be in this tax bracket in retirement, even if most of my income is coming out of a traditional 401k. we don't do crazy expensive shit, except for my gay reefing hobby. |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 1:08 PM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate Yeah, there's no good way to roll over a six-figure traditional 401k/IRA into a Roth. The least bad option is probably to convert it to an IRA and then slowly convert it to Roth over several years (ideally years when your income is unusually low and/or the stock market has taken a beating).
But if you expect to be in a lower tax bracket after retirement, there is really no point in doing so. You'll pay less in tax if you just leave it alone. Specifically, you should leave it in your old employer's 401k plan rather than rolling over to Roth so that you can still do the backdoor Roth. |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 11:36 PM Author: overrated plaza i'm just going to roll it over into my current firm's 401k.
i think i'm going to do 75% of future contributions to the roth 401(k) option. i have to imagine taxes are going to go up in the future given all the debt this shit country is in, plus we have around $1.6 million in traditional 401k accounts. it'll be nice to offset that with a bunch of roth balances (wife and i each also have around 100k in roth iras, and we do a backdoor roth every year) |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 12:34 AM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate It wouldn't be a horrible idea to have some Roth money, but 75% is probably high for someone earning $550k. Remember that when you contribute to a traditional account, 100% of the deduction offsets income taxed at your highest marginal rate (37% federal plus state). But when you withdraw from a traditional account, the first $22k annually is taxed at 10%, the next $68k is taxed at 12%, etc. If you don't expect to be withdrawing enough to be putting yourself into the higher tax brackets, it is hard to imagine a scenario where someone earning under $100k is getting taxed at 37% or higher. Granted, eventually RMD's will probably push you into the higher tax brackets anyway, but even then the first $360k or so you withdraw per year will be taxed at a lower rate. And you could probably mostly (or entirely) avoid this by slowly converting your traditional accounts to Roth accounts after retirement (convert just enough each year to avoid bumping yourself into a higher tax bracket).
TLDR: I have a hard time imagining a scenario where you will save more money contributing to a Roth rather than a traditional account right now. You should still max out the backdoor Roth every year because there is no reason not to, and maybe throw a little bit into a Roth 401k as well. But I'd put the vast majority (and probably all) of your savings into a traditional account. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 3:47 PM Author: Gold mood There are tax strategies with linked annuities and life insurance that are not a scam but you need like $20 million for these to make any sense given the costs involved. Not for lay fuckers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935343) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 12:31 PM Author: offensive glittery lay voyeur yes, fire immediately. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934425) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 12:46 PM Author: overrated plaza i feel like one of those background characters in the movie Boiler Room who got suckered into putting all their savings into some penny stock that went bust.
or was that wolf of wall street? or both maybe.
my very disappointed wife finding out about this and saying "first you cheat on me with trannies and catch HIV and now this?" |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 1:41 PM Author: razzle knife rude of her to remind you of the hiv (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934688) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 2:31 PM Author: overrated plaza i mean it was a mistake i made for a few years, why do i need to be reminded of it all the time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934879) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 2:52 PM Author: Submissive state mediation yes, fire immediately and threaten with a lawsuit over breach of fiduciary duty or abuse of trust if he tries to collect any additional fees from you. that's clearly not a suitable product for a non-retired man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47934968) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 3:26 PM Author: overrated plaza that would be pretty amusing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935190) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 3:50 PM Author: Arousing masturbator As many people have said, these people are all scammers and at best add no value and at worst can really fuck you over. Maybe if you are worth over $10 million there is some useful tax optimization they can do but that's it.
Same thing with the proliferation of all these various insurance schemes. You don't need any of it.
Like travel agents, it's a job that made some sense 40 years ago when it was hard to find information. It's hard to believe they still exist. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:01 PM Author: overrated plaza i pretty much knew this going in, but wanted to be sure i wasn't missing some cute trickery that would help me tax-wise or whatever.
like i said above, i'm actually rather happy with all this because i spent a couple grand to confirm that i already know what i need to do and i have no need for some dood to help me. also glad my bullshit detector went off almost immediately after i got off the call with this guy, and i knew it was bullshit before i even got the paperwork in my email. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:17 PM Author: heady pearly step-uncle's house The prospectuses (prospecti?) for these things are two inches thick in small type, front and back printed.
The purpose for this is not to protect YOU. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:42 PM Author: Khaki people who are hurt library (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47935601) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 4:50 PM Author: overrated plaza basically annuities are on a list of products/items/services designed to fuck old people
another that comes to mind is AOL autopay. pretty sure AOL was kept afloat for years because boomers and silent generation faggots forgot to cancel their AOL subs after AOL quit being an isp.
this all reminds me of that. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:19 PM Author: Gold mood My father in law still has an AOL email address and is proud of it. It's kind of cool to be contrarian like that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936442) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:57 PM Author: overrated plaza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936616) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:08 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage in college I was a friend with a few financial advisors and they would always talk about the commissions on annuities. it's the financial advisor equivalent of your car salesman telling you what a great deal an extended warranty is. a good rule of thumb is no one has to hard sell you something that's worthwhile.
with financial advisors you've got elites that may benefit from paying huge fees to invest in a hedge fund and you have everyone else. you'd be far better off just DCAing into a vanguard target retirement fund than doing a anything some faggot at fidelity advises you to do. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:13 PM Author: overrated plaza im torn - on the one hand i'm kind of offended that he thought i'd be stupid enough to fall for this. on the other, i did hire a financial advisor so theres a 99% chance i know nothing about anything, and honestly this was entertaining and funny. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936416) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:18 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage the financial advisor was a true believer and asked the business prof teaching the class, who was a local bigwig in finance teaching a short course. the professor said "if one of my employees tried to pitch our client an annuity he'd be fired." not flame.
yes, fire him. literally just buy some low cost vanguard funds. the targeted retirement is fine. if you want to get fancy you can fuck out with different funds. at the end of the day you're just throwing it at the nightmare kike casino and your destiny is determined by the spin of the great dreidel. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:26 PM Author: overrated plaza target date funds are kind of shit. i had a lot in those but moved my funds and my wife's out of them. most of our money is in s&p/large cap (closest approximation to s&p), and vanguard total stock market. i'm getting out of international stocks entirely and going to put some of the money in ETFs like QQQ and the vanguard growth.
as documented on the boart, i also put around $40k in nvda stock just for fun hehe. i don't really fuck around with stocks but whatever.
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:33 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage they are shit but if you just want to put your money in one thing and not think about it it's a bazillion times better than an annuity. but yeah just VTI and chill is probably even better.
it's all just fraud and lies that you're forced to put your money into or watch it rot away from talmudic inflation. just put your money in the lowest cost broadly diversified shit allocated to whatever your risk tolerance is. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:29 PM Author: heady pearly step-uncle's house The average lawyer has a little money, desperately wants to have a lot of money, knows they won’t get rich lawyering, and can barely do long division. We are the PERFECT target audience for these turds. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936493) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:14 PM Author: Aromatic indian lodge Even elites investing in hedge funds are getting scammed
Read that rickpanama/link in sf guy's posts about his "active money manager" lmao |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:16 PM Author: overrated plaza link? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936434) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:21 PM Author: Aromatic indian lodge Don't remember off the top of my head but this retard butts in money management threads talking about his "guy" that charged him 1.2% to buy sp500 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936454) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:27 PM Author: overrated plaza that sounds like a real bargain (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936482) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:16 PM Author: Gold mood There is a use case for annuities but it's narrow and for people north of 55 and generally with over 3 million in liquid assets minimum. Extended warranties on cars are also no longer a scam when infotainment repairs run $5k and basically zero LCDs are good past 7 years now. That entire warranty is for the replacement of your shitty touchscreens. The scams are the tire coverages they sell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936433) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:21 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage there is a legitimate use case for every financial product but at the end of the day if someone is trying to hard sell you one it's because they stand to gain something 99% of the time.
derivatives have a legitimate financial use but you shouldn't give some WSB guy your money. "financial advisors" are basically the same intelligence/quality/integrity of "mortgage specialists" in 2006. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:23 PM Author: Gold mood If you're pushing 60 and your options are t-bills or an annuity -- buy the annuity. Everyone else should be in low fee value funds (and running like hell from S&P 500 index funds) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936466) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:44 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage i'd still go with some investor grade bond fund over either for retirement. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936544) |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 11:55 AM Author: Gold mood Bond funds are priced relative to NPV of bonds which is a highly interest rate sensitive calculation. Annuities have a less rate sensitive equity component while offering effectively the same protections as bonds at a higher fee. The removal of some rate sensitivity is why you buy annuities over bonds. The annuity should be 20-30% of the assets for an old bro. It doesn't entirely replace bonds but it's a good in between that does belong is a rich bros portfolio when he is over 60. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47942831) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:15 PM Author: Vivacious goyim FAs are huge scams
put in the work to understand it yourself
no other way |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:18 PM Author: overrated plaza agreed. luckily i know enough to plow money into index funds and let do. i've essentially funded college for both my kids so i can stop that saving and put that money into the market.
i thought it was possible i was missing something, but clearly the only thing i was missing was a sales pitch urging me to pull almost a million dollars out of the stock market and buy some insurance product. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:21 PM Author: Gold mood Guy in index funds who doesn't understand that fully half his money is in like 8-9 stocks and he is royally fucked if any one of them fucks up. Fully 80% of your alpha in the last 5 years is from 7 stocks. It's not going to end well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936451) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:29 PM Author: overrated plaza you're pushing this narrative pretty hard here.
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:31 PM Author: Gold mood Cause it's true. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936502) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:46 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage you're basing it on the magnificent 7 crashing but you're not considering that if they started dipping in the funds would be reallocated amongst the other sp500 companies in real time.
if the top sp500 stocks simultaneously crashed it reverberate through the entire market and you'd lose your ass regardless of how you've allocated your equities. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:49 PM Author: overrated plaza i've been hearing this argument about the s&p for a while now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936564) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:12 PM Author: fuchsia excitant menage i took a ton of money out in 2018 because i thought the market was so overvalued. then in 2020 i was sure that the crash crash was finally starting and bought some puts.
all that to say is market fundamentals are retarded and all you can do is throw money at kikery and let it do what it do. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:21 PM Author: bearded marvelous goal in life therapy He gets a huge commission if he sells you an annuity. The more you buy the bigger the commission. You were a biglaw partner so I am guessing your 401k is sizable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936452) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:43 PM Author: overrated plaza this particular one is like 700k. it's from my last firm, i've left it sitting.
just do take almost a mil and purchase a high-fee insurance product! |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 11:00 AM Author: bearded marvelous goal in life therapy he wants you to do it because his commission is like 6%, so $42,000 from just one transaction. he just wants you to buy him a new car.
anyway if you want an advisor involved then you should have an investment advisor who take a 1% percentage of AUM and dont work on commissions. they are still salesmen but generally much brighter. |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 11:06 AM Author: overrated plaza i'm left with the conclusion that i don't need an advisor of any kind. i am fairly financially literate - i plow money into ETFs, have some money in crypto, and do backdoor roths for wife and me every year.
based on what i saw from this guy, i don't need anything.
i've heard up to 8% commissions on these things, so he may be looking at closer to 60 grand. pretty nice chunk of change. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 8:48 PM Author: overrated plaza oh, i didnt mention. this guy had some bullshit bar graph and was like "if you just keep doing what you're doing, here's where your money will be at age 58" and it showed a peak of like 10-11m.
but if you do this [he used a term that definitely was not the word annuity], it'll do this, and it showed $15 mil.
i'd imagine he gets many suckers who fall for that. only the difference he's showing them is between 1.5-2m if they leave everything in the market, and 3.5-4 if they purchase this scam product. sad stuff. |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:49 PM Author: Concupiscible kink-friendly range I don't see how some glorified shitlaw partner like you who is a degenerate drug addict can casually have 700K in a 401K with no matching. (You're acting very nonchalant like this isn't most of your retirement savings.) I had no law school loans and worked NYC biglaw for a very long time before moving to a company with a 6% match and I only have a little more than that in my 401k accounts, though I guess $300K is in a Roth 401(k) which would be a lot larger in nominal balance if I hadn't paid taxes on the contributions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936802) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 7:41 AM Author: overrated plaza Ok the number is inflated. I have $250k in my 401k due to being in shitlaw most of my career. I was trying to make the numbers sound “sexy” and I picked one hovering below a million. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47937679) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 4:45 PM Author: crystalline stimulating box office Lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47966169) |
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Date: August 6th, 2024 9:54 PM Author: mauve trip black woman new version goy tell (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47936814) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 12:45 AM Author: Arousing masturbator Is his name JD Wentworth? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47937346) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 11:06 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal Hospital OP is an asshole who wants to rob the guy of his commission. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938260) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 11:08 AM Author: overrated plaza (my financial advisor) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938265) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 11:55 AM Author: razzle knife Cr. He probably won't even tip him after his fee, either (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938444) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 12:54 PM Author: Gold mood (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938723) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 12:59 PM Author: Gold mood FYI annuity products have bankrupted many insurers. While the use case for these things is limited they are not the highway robbery you think they are too because the insurer has to take complex hedges to make these things work. Insurers can't own very much stock. Most AUM under an annuity have to be invested on investment grade bonds. Most of the rest goes into buying giant blocks of options -- not actual stock. RILA players all by themselves keep the entire hedging industry afloat. They are constantly adjusting their hedges. Options are not cost free. These fuckers can very easily blow their entire fee structure just keeping net neutral on their hedges. This is why many/most diversified insurers have spun off their annuity segments into separate companies and floated those out by IPO. They don't want to own 100% of their own annuity player. |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 1:10 PM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate What an awesome product. Annuities are SPS for investors and SPS for insurance companies. Literally everybody loses except for the "financial advisors" who get fat fees from selling them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938786) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 1:16 PM Author: Thirsty forum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938837) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 2:25 PM Author: Gold mood Lawyers too bro. I have worked on sooo many S-1, S-3 and N-4 filings in my life around annuities.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47939170) |
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Date: August 9th, 2024 6:51 PM Author: Submissive state mediation is there a lot of annuity-specific disclosure in those documents where the underlying company has annuities as a product? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47948602) |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 11:44 AM Author: Gold mood They are not ENTIRELY SPS for an insurer. Annuities let a life insurer hedge mortality risk. With life insurance you make more money the longer people live. In the event of a mass death event -- you are fucked. If you introduce annuity products into the mix you mitigate that risk. With annuities the insurer benefits the more people die. If they sell you both products they get you on both ends and are sitting pretty in terms of risk profile. The problem with indexed annuities is depending on structure the risk can be rather more bottomless for the insurer than anything on the life end so a diversified insurer only wants so much exposure to annuities. In the early 90s the whole industry lost so much money they had to demutualize to survive and it was a disaster. They learned a lot of lessons but now there is a lot of PE money in this space and a lot of life settlement BS on the secondary market all of which is very 180 for lawyers but is probably bad for traditional players. The new SEC RILA rules also remove barriers to entry. There will be more players in this space very soon and this will hit sales for existing players. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47942759) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 1:15 PM Author: overrated plaza what is the liklelihood that i will come out ahead if i put $700k into one of these vs letting it ride in index funds? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47938827) |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 12:52 AM Author: cyan orchestra pit This is not an argument in favor of an annuity. What exactly do you think happens if the issuer of your annuity goes bankrupt? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47941675) |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 8:39 AM Author: overrated plaza i'm not arguing in favor of an annuity, i'm trying to see if anyone can even come close to making a coherent argument for putting almost a million dollars in one of these scams.
i've been busy (see my bristol thread) all week and haven't responded to the advisor. rather than ghost him totally, i'm thinking of asking him to send me a full prospectus because i need to analyze all of the fees, guaranteed returns, etc. and understand what this is "invested" in before i consider it, because $700k parked in the market earning 8% a year will be around $3 million in 20 years. i just need to understand why he's asking me to pay $3 million (realistically more, given that annualized returns should be higher than 8%) for this product.
i'm interested to see what he says. then i will fire him. |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 11:46 AM Author: Gold mood The state pays you anyway with state equivalents of the FDIC. It's as safe as owning T-bills in that respect. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47942773) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 11:32 PM Author: overrated plaza Are you making a case for “investing” in this scam? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47955187) |
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Date: August 7th, 2024 7:27 PM Author: overrated plaza i poasted this thread late at night and it got no attention and bumped it yesterday morning and here we are.
just an FYI, friends. timing is everything. |
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Date: August 8th, 2024 12:46 AM Author: spectacular sticky ticket booth rigpig (boomer sharing valuable pearls of wisdom) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47941667) |
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Date: August 9th, 2024 5:50 PM Author: overrated plaza i decided to waste some of this guy's time, then i will tell him lolno sorry no commission for u, ur fired.
Dear Plannerfaggot,
It was a very hectic week so I couldn’t get back to you right away. I didn’t realize that you were referring to an annuity. I am very hesitant to have anything to do with an annuity, which I generally understand are incredibly complex to the point of obfuscation and designed so that the insurance company gets the better end of the deal, not to mention coming with very high fees. I also understand them to be designed for people focused on capital preservation rather than growth (and I am interested solely in growth at this stage).
The $675k noted on the application, if left in the stock market, would be worth $3.1 million in 20 years assuming a return of 8%, and $4.5 million assuming a return of 10%. Before I sign anything or consider pulling such a large sum out of the stock market and buying a product with it, I’ll need to be roughly 100% certain that I am going to come out ahead by purchasing the product.
Do you have a prospectus or similar document describing all of the terms of the annuity? At a minimum, I will want to know (1) what the fees are, (2) what the guaranteed returns are, (3) assuming there are no guarantees (which I assume is the case), are there caps on the yearly returns?, (4) is there a death benefit? (5) what is the payment structure – after I put in $675k, when do I begin receiving income? I’ll have to compare that to what I’d be looking at if the money remained in index funds and make the call. I am very skeptical but want to keep an open mind.
Thanks and have a great weekend!
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Date: August 9th, 2024 7:32 PM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate 180. I love that you are actually forcing this dude to defend his fraud and grifting. I am subscribing and eagerly awaiting this dude's reply. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47948722) |
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Date: August 9th, 2024 7:37 PM Author: overrated plaza lmao, he thought he had a sucker on the hook ALL WEEK. he was probably picking out a new car and shit.
then friday evening BAM he gets preliminarily dingfagged. he's probably going to spend his weekend stressing about how to save this.
i mean, listen - if i misunderstood something, then i am SURE that after i read all of the literature and consult with the boart, as well as another financial professional and maybe some youtube videos, i will admit that i was wrong and purchase this fantastic financial product with the $700k in the prior 401(k) plan.
dudes from my high school bought insurance products that outperformed the S&P all the time, nbd.
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Date: August 9th, 2024 7:35 PM Author: Rambunctious Free-loading Cruise Ship Cr email to the financial Panther. Let’s see what he crawls back with! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47948738) |
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Date: August 10th, 2024 1:42 PM Author: bearded marvelous goal in life therapy lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47950879) |
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Date: August 9th, 2024 8:37 PM Author: overrated plaza i just remembered this guy and i were laughing about people who buy actively managed mutual funds with high fees bc 97% of them underperform the market over time.
i wonder how he will react to my question about the annuity's fees. ljl.
and actually, i just remembered that the first time i met with this dood a few months ago, i told him that it felt kind of good that given that we have around $2m in the market now, i could basically leave my career and we'd retire in 20 years with $8m or so. his response was "yup, sure will, as long as you keep doing what you're doing!" i chalked this up to a simple misstatement or misunderstanding on his part of the magic of compound returns, but now i believe he actually doesn't know shit. |
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Date: August 9th, 2024 11:36 PM Author: overrated plaza (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47949450) |
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Date: August 10th, 2024 11:03 AM Author: provocative chapel I made a really retarded decision of listening to a “financial advisor” who was actually just an insurance salesman and got some stupid index universal life insurance policy. I’m an idiot for not doing my research and got scammed by a boomer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47950526) |
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Date: August 10th, 2024 2:10 PM Author: overrated plaza how much did you put into it? don't feel too bad, i've been at least literate when it comes to the stock market and investing for about 22 years, and the guy had me for a second until i saw it was an annuity. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47950960) |
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Date: August 10th, 2024 2:13 PM Author: overrated plaza i haven't even read this fully yet, but at first glance he's trying to tell me i'm just kind of putting my money into the s&p but i guess this is somehow better. This is a LONG email, not sure i'm gonna actually read this ljl.
Thank you for the email – hopefully the weekend will be relaxing!
Traditionally, annuities have been designed for more conservative individuals and those who are near retirement. They also can include income features and have fees within the strategy. I do want to make it clear that this strategy would not involve an income component and is designed for growth. The individuals that I have recommended this tiered participation strategy for are younger and are strictly looking for asset appreciation. Annuities are not all the same anymore, and have changed to provide advantages to those looking for growth and not looking to retire within a few years.
Flexguard: There are different strategies within the Flexguard – this is the name of the annuity as you will see in the application. There are strategies with more downside protection (protection from market loss) and upside caps (limits on the upside). There are also subaccounts (mutual funds) offered within the Flexguard. I do not recommend any of these options as the subaccounts have an expense ratio fee and the caps limit growth on the upside. This would not make sense for your situation. The only strategy within the Flexguard that would make sense is the tiered participation (what has been discussed). This is only because you would not be limited on the growth at all and you would be provided with excess returns tied to the S & P index.
Catch: Here is the catch to Flexguard – there is a holding period. So, if you feel there is a chance that within the 6 years you would want to liquidate the account for any reason then you would be assessed a surrender charge. Since this is a qualified retirement account, you would also be assessed a penalty from the IRS and would owe taxes on the distributions. Technically, you can access 10% of the account value penalty free each year. Assuming you are maintaining a long term position on the account, the holding period would not be an issue. Because of this, it usually becomes a moot point. However, if you do want the flexibility to pull funds out of the account and take income within the 6 years, I do not recommend this strategy.
Fees: Since we are selecting the index based option within the Flexguard – there are no fees. No expenses ratio fees, no admin charges or mortality expenses. You will see in the application that there can be fees IF you select a subaccount (mutual fund) which I strongly advise against as there is no value in my opinion. Your account would simply mirror the S & P index similar to a standard index ETF/mutual fund however there are no expense fees taken out of the account balance. As mentioned above you would be assessed a surrender charge penalty if you took income on the account (above 10% of the account) within the 6 year period as noted in the application. Outside of this, there is no limit on the upside and nothing being deducted from the account balance. Again, from an ideal perspective, you do not touch any of your qualified retirement accounts (401K, IRA, etc.) as it wouldn’t be wise and I feel we are probably on the same page with you wanting to keep the accounts invested until retirement.
Advantage: My rationale for the Flexguard tiered participation is the growth potential of the overall market over the next 6 year period (and long term in general). The only scenario where the tiered participation will not outperform a standard index fund is if over the next 6 years the S & P index has only provided a 15% return or has been negative over the period. In this situation, you would have performed exactly as being in a standard index fund. If there is a return over the 6 years of above 15% in the S & P index, then the strategy will outperform a standard S & P index fund, at 125% of the excess return after the first 15%. I have mentioned before I am a believer in the S & P and feel that there is a fair to strong likelihood that the S & P will outpace a 15% return over a 6 year period in which your account will perform better. Using the example of the previous 6 years in the S & P from our call on Monday – this account would have outpaced a standard index portfolio and provide a higher portfolio value (and is the case with clients who are currently in the tiered participation Flexguard compared to if they were invested outside of it) – however of course I do not want to guarantee any future returns.
Guarantees: There are no guaranteed returns with the tiered participation – generally speaking if there are any guarantees involved with an annuity that is when there are fees involved. I don’t think a guaranteed annuity or any protection based annuity makes any sense at all given your age and time horizon. The only reason I think the tiered participation makes sense is for the additional upside potential. The current rates of the 125% on excess returns I believe is competitive and usually this rate is not this high, which is why the strategy has been advantageous for other clients of late as well. This is what I illustrated through E-money on Monday in the difference in overall portfolio value using the Flexguard tiered participation. The death benefit for the account would simply be the account value on the date of death – similar to how it would be in a 401K or any other IRA.
After 6 Years: After the holding period of 6 years is up, you have can roll over the account to a another IRA portfolio (non-annuity), renew into another tiered participation strategy (if provided rates are competitive then) or roll the account into your 401K. You will have complete flexibility and again this doesn’t turn into any income stream or lock up funds or annuitize. In other words, the account is not treated differently from any other account such as your 401K or the like.
I understand you wanting the clarification as annuities for someone of your age typically would warrant questions. I want this to make complete sense to you as it does to me. Before making any moves, I want to make sure we are on the same page and is crystal clear. I am happy to setup another call to go through this deeper.
Have a great weekend!
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Date: August 10th, 2024 10:06 PM Author: overrated plaza Gee, he made a mistake because it says on the fourth page of the prospectus that the annual fee is between 1.2 and 1.3%
I should let him know so he doesn’t accidentally tell anyone else there’s no fee. Do you think he’ll thank me for the catch, brothers?
Edit: this guy really made a boo boo. If you select the “equities” option for the “investment” in this annuity, there’s another 1% fee.
Is 2.2% fee for a fund that tracks the s&p (but caps your returns) a good deal? |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 5:08 AM Author: heady pearly step-uncle's house This is entirely typical of these shysters (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47952760) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 8:07 AM Author: overrated plaza it's really scary how they get people like this.
i'm so gullible that i actually didn't know financial planners were a straight up scam. this whole thing was a long, disguised sales pitch for this annuity. and i bet he has a bunch of other "financial products" he was going to try to sell me too.
i bet he gets the odd person who is skeptical of this annuity scam and raise a question like i did, then rely on his lie to go ahead and buy it. this shit is so fucking convoluted that I've waded through about three separate prospectuses and still don't fully understand it.
the government should ban these things (and many others), but of course people in this industry have tons of lobbyists in DC so that'll never happen |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 9:15 AM Author: Azure frisky friendly grandma he repeats the phrase "nothing being deducted from the account balance" - does that make his no-fees claim technically not a lie? are the "fees" somehow baked into the expense ratio of whatever fund you are forced to invest in? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47952969) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 9:19 AM Author: overrated plaza i think that's what he means, and maybe you could say that he is technically correct but i'd argue not. fees are fees. and of course we would all agree that his representation is made in bad faith.
when i fully run this shit to ground i'm gonna confront him with the yearly fees, and he will probably respond "oh that's just included, i meant there aren't OTHER fees. and there are fees with everything, plus like i told you, you'll beat the market so this 2% just comes out of that! it's a net positive!"
should i then ask him about his commission?
also, i don't normally do this, but this guy is scamming people. is there a regulatory body of some kind i can report him to? or is "CFP" just totally made up and he isn't actually licensed?
he showed me some bar chart that had me staying the course with what i'm doing and retiring with like $12m, or doing THIS and retiring with $15m. i'd love to see the assumptions for the graphs. in the former it's probably assuming a yearly return of 6% due to a bear market and net of fees of 1% (which i don't pay because i'm all-in with ETFs and vanguard funds), then the second graph assumes 19% yearly returns for the s&p, and is "before fees." |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:44 AM Author: Submissive state mediation he'll just say oh man, i didn't realize you were talking about *those* fees! when i said there were *no fees* i was just answering your question about x and y fees, which are 0. what a scam (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964479) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 3:21 PM Author: bearded marvelous goal in life therapy failed to mention his fee as a commission as well.
your account automatically goes down by 6% because that goes to him, but thats not a 'fee'? |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 3:40 PM Author: overrated plaza well, you see, that's a "commission" and not a "fee." i clearly asked about fees, so he didn't lie to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47954045) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 11:32 AM Author: Submissive state mediation (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47965033) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 4:47 PM Author: overrated plaza I have reviewed a number of documents, including several prospectuses. As I suspected, this product is not for me. I am interested in continued growth, not capital preservation. There are a couple of things that jump out at me from reading the prospectus(es) that describe the terms of the annuity. First, there does appear to be a fee. There is a minimum fee of 1.2% per year and a maximum fee of 1.3% noted in the Initial Summary Prospectus dated July 1, 2024. While there are other “portfolio” fees in addition, I assume based on what you told me that these would not apply unless a subaccount were purchased. But the 1.2-1.3% is enough to be a dealbreaker.
Additionally, the S-3 prospectus states as follows: “Index returns for Indexes offered under the Annuity are based on the closing share price (ie, price return) of each respective Index and do not include dividends and other distributions declared by the Index.” I believe the current dividend yield of the S&P is close to 2%, so that is an additional amount by which this product would underperform the market. That, too, even if there were no annual expenses, would be a dealbreaker.
The 5% buffer is not attractive to me, as this money is going to be growing for decades; I have no issue participating fully in all market gains and losses. The prospect of receiving 125% of the index return is remote at best, given that dividends are not included when calculating the applicable index return. The market would have to be doing better than 15% for it to kick in. I also don’t know whether the 1.2% (or 1.3%?) is also deducted before determining whether the 125% credit applies, but I suspect that it is (given that the product was designed by an insurance company).
I am sure there is a commission that would result from my buying this product, which naturally would be coming out of my end. I am not sure what that would be, but the two things noted above are enough for me to say no, so it really doesn’t matter.
And then I picture [xxxx] and the kids talking to you (or somebody) after I’ve prematurely died and them finding out what happened to my ~$700k 401(k) funds that should have remained invested in equities and growing. And it makes me angry. I’m sure there is a use case for this product, but it surely isn’t a smart investment for a mid-40s breadwinner and father of two who wants to make sure his family is provided for in the event something should happen.
Given what I indicated to you about my financial objectives, there is no scenario where it was reasonable for you to try to sell me this product. I thank you for your time and it was nice meeting you, but I am going to terminate this relationship effective immediately. Take care.
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Date: August 11th, 2024 5:39 PM Author: bearded marvelous goal in life therapy please update with response
is he your current advisor for other things or is this the first thing he tried to sell you |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 5:51 PM Author: overrated plaza so this was a long con.
i forget how i got linked up with him, but i am sure it was some kind of sales call. so from the jump it was stupid as fuck for me to reply to him.
but i decided to let him look at our shit because as i've said, i figured there must be something i'm missing re money management. i paid him like $3k to do an "analysis" of our net worth.
he ran numbers, and we had a meeting, and the entire thing was more or less focused on this annuity (which he did not call an annuity, he tried to talk around what it was).
i'm annoyed i got scammed out of some money but it could have been WAY worse. it actually pisses me off that he's out there doing this to people. most people don't know enough to know that this is a scam.
edit: after you replied, i edited to add the above paragraph about my wife and kids talking to someone after i died (you know, of AIDS or whatever) and finding out that that 401(k) account is tied all the fuck up and barely grew. that makes me want to go beat the fucking shit out of this faggot. i doubt it'll make him feel guilty bc he looks like some travelshrew early 30s queer and can't relate. but it should definitely make him feel guilty. he probably looked at my income and figured "well this guy's gonna have a lot of money either way, so what the hell, this ain't so bad." fucking scumbag. |
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Date: August 12th, 2024 8:51 AM Author: fuchsia excitant menage 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47956006) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:37 AM Author: heady pearly step-uncle's house Screwing you out of the dividends is egregious and should be a felony (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964464) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:45 AM Author: Submissive state mediation cr, that's a hilarious way to screw people while saying with a straight face "your results will mirror the index" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964485) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 10:31 AM Author: overrated plaza If you do the math (see below), the index would have to return like 28% for you to come out appreciably ahead. It’s a joke. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964729) |
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Date: August 11th, 2024 8:54 PM Author: overrated plaza oh, this slipped my mind but when i spoke to this shit for brains on monday, he told me i couldn't do a backdoor Roth this year (because i'd be rolling over a 401k into this vehicle).
there are like 19 different ways how this idiot tried to fuck me, LJL. |
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Date: August 12th, 2024 12:12 AM Author: Lemon Soul-stirring Main People Property In addition to all the reasons stated above why this annuity likely is SPS, you must also consider counterparty risk (tbf, one poster tangentially touched on this issue). I likely would reject investing in an annuity on this basis alone when the repayment obligation extends beyond 15 or 20 years, especially since there is approximately 0% chance of the government coming to the rescue of people holding annuities that would be valuable but for a default that occurs in the context of broader systemic financial troubles. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47955260) |
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Date: August 12th, 2024 12:15 AM Author: overrated plaza I read several prospectuses (there’s too much bullshit for there to be just one prospectus). Turns out, as you’d expect, there are fees north of 1%, and when determining the “index return” for the s&p, dividends aren’t included, it’s just share price.
It’s amazing people like this are permitted to operate.
This guy is a typical 105 iq-mo. He tried to get me for 700k. Of course I’m going to do due diligence. Better to shoot for sub-100k and hope the person will just trust you because you’re a CFP(tm) |
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Date: August 13th, 2024 9:51 AM Author: overrated plaza here is his reply. i cannot decide if he is doubling down on his scam, or whether he actually believes the shit he's saying because he's so uninformed about the "investment product" he is pushing. reminds me of the deniro character in Casino firing the hick floor manager (nephew of a local pol) who was allowing machines to keep hitting: he's either in on a scam or he's incompetent. either way, he's fired.
he's actually telling me that (1) there are no fees and (2) the money would "not be taken out of the market" because it's in an "index following the s&p." this fucking guy cannot be dumb enough to believe this. i may file complaints against him with whatever body regulates "CFPs" as well as my state insurance and securities regulators. i'm sure nothing will happen, but this idiot is a menace.
Thank you for your email.
I do apologize that you feel this way and please know that I was 100% recommending with my best intentions for you at hand. My job is not to make people agree with me and I hope that this is not the impression I have provided – I do not want clients to make any decisions they don’t understand or clearly agree with. I do respect your decision and am not looking to change your mind at this point - just wanted to address my reasoning for recommending the strategy.
Annuities do have a polarizing connotation to them, but please know that this strategy was an accumulation annuity first and foremost and not a preservation strategy. I was not recommending this based on the buffer in mind – and simply the growth prospects. As mentioned before, the rates offered on these do fluctuate and usually are not as attractive but year-to-date have been more appealing. Please note any fee mentioned (mortality, portfolio, etc.) in the prospectus or application is only assessed if you are investing the money in a variable sub-account, which is not what was being recommended – and I do not recommend this. There would be no competitive advantage to utilizing this strategy if it came with fees – which is why I only mentioned the tiered participation from the start. The index (S & P) was being recommended and does not have any assessed fee. Nothing would be deducted from the account unless you prematurely took money out of the account prior to the 6 years being up.
The money would not be pulled out of the market as you would be invested in the index following the S & P – so your participation would not change. The Flexguard itself would not take money away from the markets. The 401K to an IRA rollover does not remove you from the market. Also, from the death benefit standpoint it would be treated similar as any other IRA or 401K. I am unsure as to what you mean by the premature passing - this money would be provided to them (along with any interest built in the account) and again would have been invested from day one of opening the account – so there is no losing out on any appreciation.
I do believe you and xxxx are both in a good position and had mentioned before that had you not pursued an IRA strategy (and simply rolled over the 401K’s to your current 401K) you would be okay based on the desired goals. As noted in the E-money forecasting however, there was a considerable impact on utilizing the tiered participation growth rate based on the last 6 years in the S & P compared to the standard index. I felt it was fair to mention this strategy to you so that you were aware of the growth potential. As stated before, we start with a planning relationship first to better understand the client and their qualitative information before making recommendations. I would have preferred to present the option in person but completely understand with your work trip and not wanting to reschedule.
I do understand that annuities themselves can have a negative connotation and candidly believe that some of them are not very useful. Online there can be many gripes about them overall but I do believe that context matters in these situations. Again, I just want to express why this strategy could have been useful with numbers understanding that you are looking for growth alone since you are in your 40’s – the Flexguard strategy can offer protection and is noted in the prospectus but that in no way was why I felt the strategy could be beneficial.
I do respect your decision to step away if you feel that I was being misleading or not transparent – but please know this was not my intention. I wish you and your family nothing but the best. Please let me know if you would like to close out your life insurance application and I will do so.
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Date: August 13th, 2024 9:57 AM Author: overrated plaza you know what, him opening the email by telling me i just "don't understand" this product is basically an insult. i'm taking it that way anyway.
i'm bringing down whatever hell i can on this faggot for that reason alone. |
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Date: August 13th, 2024 10:08 PM Author: Very tactful cerebral locale roommate 180. Please do tell the bort how it goes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47963583) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 9:27 AM Author: overrated plaza I dunno if I’ll do this because although this person is dangerous our system doesn’t have any actual regulation and it’ll just serve to inconvenience him and make me look petty. I actually think he believes in this product bc he’s too stupid to understand it.
The exclusion of dividends means that even if there are no fees (which there are, but he claims there aren’t), the s&p would have to return like 25% for you to “break even” with an s&p index fund. And for every point over that, you get 0.25% extra. Basically if the index returned 32% per year for years, which will never happen, this would be a good deal. And there’s assuming no fees, which is bullshit. There are fees. |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:00 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal Hospital You are both retards for writing book length emails. An email should not be more than 5 sentences. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964399) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:54 AM Author: overrated plaza (Chicago law grad) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964501) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 9:10 AM Author: Wine factory reset button There are ETF’s that do this for much cheaper. They’re not a great idea for most investors, particularly those who aren’t on the verge of retiring. It sounds like your advisor is either moderately mentally disabled or is getting some sort of commission for selling this. In either case, you should terminate the relationship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47964546) |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 9:29 AM Author: overrated plaza I think both actually. He’s motivated by the commission so was hard selling it but I think he legit thinks it’s pretty good investment even though if you study it you can see you’re almost guaranteed to underperform the market. And if the market was returning so much that you’d benefit, the prospectus states the terms can be changed. Obviously the insurer would switch the terms on you if it looked like a bunch of people were about to get the better end of the deal.
I obviously fired him. If he gave me that advice in good faith, he’s in the wrong occupation. |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 12:09 PM Author: Gold mood Those ETFs arent tax advantaged. Annuities are put in a IRA. Also, I dont think they are actually cheaper. Outside of the initial fee with an annuity you are looking at a going 1% fee structure which is what you would pay to any fiduciary. The ETFs are pooled annuities. You are paying the same 1% + the cost of the pooling + a 0.15% fund fee.
The new thing is sticking annuities right into 401k plans so you can just pick an annuity option the way you pick a target date fund. These actually are cheaper as you save on the advisor commission. |
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:54 PM Author: crystalline stimulating box office There are a bunch of quora answers on annuities full of obviously low iq salesmen stating that anyone who has a low opinion of annuities doesn’t understand them. Unless you are in congress with ability to regulate them or otherwise have a platform more influential than xo, it’s best to ignore them and move on with your life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47966937) |
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Date: August 15th, 2024 9:51 AM Author: overrated plaza i actually do believe that the "advisor" trying to sell me this was doing so in good faith, believing that it was a good investment.
shocking how someone can be a dimwit and get "licensed" after "passing" "exams" and give advice that leaves people demonstrably worse off than they were before, and definitely worse off than if they'd just put all their money in an S&P or total stock market fund.
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Date: August 14th, 2024 8:57 PM Author: vibrant tan space halford tp (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47966954) |
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Date: August 15th, 2024 10:22 AM Author: Misunderstood brunch cuckoldry Flexguard? Is this like the ceramic coating the car dealer tries to sell ? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47968762) |
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Date: August 16th, 2024 8:21 AM Author: overrated plaza i don't think that's a perfect analogy, since the coating probably doesn't damage your car.
if you put your money into this in the hopes that you'll outperform the s&p, you're nearly guaranteed to wind up with less money in 6 years than if you'd just put the money in VOO.
is there something that a car dealer tries to sell that will actually damage your car? that's what this is. |
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Date: August 16th, 2024 9:17 AM Author: Carmine bbw Can you Lock this thread or something? You keep bumping it and it's annoying af. Everyone knows annuities are scams. You're being Gen X af. And your e-mails are pointless and long-winded. The salesman bombed OCI and has no choice. He either has to scam people or get an "honest" job that pays even less. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47972171) |
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Date: August 16th, 2024 10:58 PM Author: overrated plaza Good point, shitskin. It’s probably time for me to stop bumping this thread. I’m not going to bump it anymore. Thanks for the heads up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5570597&forum_id=2#47975092) |