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Book rec for boys ?

any books you read or wish you had read in high school? look...
big dun water buffalo
  12/18/25
I would have enjoyed sword and sorcery fantasy. Poul Anderso...
beady-eyed crusty generalized bond theater
  12/18/25
https://www.ebay.com/itm/276841789712? Reasonable price, ...
Salmon Cuckoldry
  12/18/25
...
Filthy iridescent haunted graveyard messiness
  12/18/25
"There's a trip to the farmers market and time for toys...
cerebral faggot firefighter
  12/19/25
this is now forever in my search history I want you dead,...
cerebral faggot firefighter
  12/19/25
mein kampf for late night reads that give you a good feel
Aromatic orchestra pit
  12/18/25
A few offhand: -On the Shortness of Life - Seneca -Sta...
Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman
  12/18/25
https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=3922329&mc=32&a...
cerebral faggot firefighter
  12/19/25
or have the kid wake up xmas morning to an ACTUAL bonfire of...
Shimmering jet-lagged corn cake twinkling uncleanness
  12/19/25
The Illustrated Man Odyssey The International Jew 1984 M...
titillating rehab wrinkle
  12/18/25
Hatchet, My Side of the Mountain for starters
concupiscible business firm international law enforcement agency
  12/18/25
i think my side of the mountain was one of his summer readin...
big dun water buffalo
  12/18/25
Where the Red Fern Grows, All Quiet on the Western Front, Ce...
concupiscible business firm international law enforcement agency
  12/18/25
they did lord of the flies already. ill look up some of your...
big dun water buffalo
  12/18/25
180
concupiscible business firm international law enforcement agency
  12/18/25
The eyes and the impossible sourdough heart of samurai...
Coral trailer park
  12/18/25
rocket boys is 180
hyperactive tripping temple dopamine
  12/18/25
Every kid should read. It’s top of that list imo
Coral trailer park
  12/18/25
...
hyperactive tripping temple dopamine
  12/19/25
weird group called the "rocket boys" ran the party...
Shimmering jet-lagged corn cake twinkling uncleanness
  12/22/25
CR GOAT status books, but would one be "past" thos...
bronze nubile location
  12/18/25
he’s 12/7th grade so i said high school since that&rsq...
big dun water buffalo
  12/18/25
The Swimming-Pool Library (fulano)
Slate hominid black woman
  12/18/25
ty for the recs, this is helpful i just asked him what bo...
big dun water buffalo
  12/18/25
Waste of time unless he's secretly 30+ years old and has rea...
sticky lime chapel
  12/18/25
seconding count of monte cristo three musketeers is also ...
amber library
  12/18/25
JackTales 🤡😳
Spectacular Center Psychic
  12/18/25
those are for reading out loud , clown
Coral trailer park
  12/18/25
The Boy with Pink Hair by Perez Hilton https://www.amazon...
judgmental vermilion school cafeteria masturbator
  12/18/25
Quo Vadis (Sienkiewicz) We Were Soldiers Once… And...
excitant stage circlehead
  12/18/25
are you seriously recommending a book on manhood written by ...
Zombie-like becky
  12/18/25
I’m not even sure which author you’re talking ab...
excitant stage circlehead
  12/18/25
lol
Zombie-like becky
  12/18/25
he doesn't like the term gay or homo and instead prefers &qu...
onyx pea-brained selfie
  12/21/25
Endurance: Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage 18000
hyperactive tripping temple dopamine
  12/18/25
No young man of any worth can finish that and not have a bet...
excitant stage circlehead
  12/18/25
James Bond novels Conan (only read the flemming and howard...
Blue exhilarant lay
  12/18/25
The first Bond novel is so good. Amazing call.
Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman
  12/18/25
Once I got into the first one I burned through the rest (12 ...
Blue exhilarant lay
  12/18/25
Any chance you can recommend your top 5? I need some new boo...
Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman
  12/18/25
1. Goldfinger 2. Moonraker 3. Casino Royale 4. From Russ...
Blue exhilarant lay
  12/19/25
tyft. I loved Moonraker. Will check out Goldfinger next I th...
Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman
  12/21/25
cr
hyperactive tripping temple dopamine
  12/18/25
Anabasis
Light theatre boiling water
  12/18/25
...
Zombie-like becky
  12/18/25
Flowers for Algernon
cobalt floppy digit ratio locale
  12/18/25
The Lessons of History - Will & Ariel Durant Man's Sear...
Zombie-like becky
  12/18/25
a song of ice and fire. I'm not a fantasy guy and I loved it...
Splenetic talented church mediation
  12/18/25
Patrick O'Byrne's Master and Commander and related books in ...
Clear Church Building Tank
  12/18/25
Hardy Boys (how old is your kid?) Zen and the Art of Motorc...
massive school ape
  12/18/25
> Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance lol
Zombie-like becky
  12/18/25
read that, among others, for my contemporary thought class i...
big dun water buffalo
  12/18/25
zorba the greek
hyperactive tripping temple dopamine
  12/18/25
...
excitant stage circlehead
  12/18/25
Several good recs already upthread. Some others: The Thin...
bronze nubile location
  12/18/25
Cr. list I feel like The Things They Carried got a bit ov...
excitant stage circlehead
  12/18/25
The Things They Carried is the most classic writer's favorit...
soul-stirring theater stage mexican
  12/18/25
...
bronze nubile location
  12/18/25
agree with the first sentence and rec. need to exercise cau...
onyx pea-brained selfie
  12/22/25
Watership Down A Day No Pigs Would Die 2nd Where the R...
Contagious deep crotch mental disorder
  12/18/25
...
disrespectful hissy fit
  12/18/25
Starship Troopers Enders Game Johnny Tremain Childhoods E...
orchid confused azn locus
  12/18/25
A CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES
cerebral faggot firefighter
  12/19/25
Neon Bible better rec for younger kid
Light theatre boiling water
  12/19/25
abridged edgar allen poe short stories
Violent sound barrier
  12/19/25
https://kommandostore.com/products/republic-of-south-africa-...
Swashbuckling Overrated Striped Hyena Wagecucks
  12/26/25


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:03 PM
Author: big dun water buffalo

any books you read or wish you had read in high school? looking for something that would be motivating / tools for life genre

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519424)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:15 PM
Author: beady-eyed crusty generalized bond theater

I would have enjoyed sword and sorcery fantasy. Poul Anderson (Broken Sword, Three Hearts and Three Lions) Fritz Lieber (Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser) etc

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519444)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:19 PM
Author: Salmon Cuckoldry

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276841789712?

Reasonable price, free shipping.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519452)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:21 PM
Author: Filthy iridescent haunted graveyard messiness



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519458)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 12:35 AM
Author: cerebral faggot firefighter

"There's a trip to the farmers market and time for toys and crayons, a bubble bath, and lots of love."

-- School Library Journal

"Will undoubtedly be scooped up by families seeking queer representation in board books."

-- Kirkus

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521596)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 2:42 AM
Author: cerebral faggot firefighter

this is now forever in my search history

I want you dead, Malk Poo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521719)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:21 PM
Author: Aromatic orchestra pit

mein kampf for late night reads that give you a good feel

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519459)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:22 PM
Author: Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman

A few offhand:

-On the Shortness of Life - Seneca

-Starship Troopers (the book is much better and more serious than the movie)

-Bonfire of the Vanities

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519460)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 12:10 AM
Author: cerebral faggot firefighter

https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=3922329&mc=32&forum_id=2#35633765

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521571)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 9:32 AM
Author: Shimmering jet-lagged corn cake twinkling uncleanness

or have the kid wake up xmas morning to an ACTUAL bonfire of his vanities

toughens him up a bit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49522050)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:23 PM
Author: titillating rehab wrinkle

The Illustrated Man

Odyssey

The International Jew

1984

Meditations

The Myth of Sisyphus

Hamlet

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519465)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:27 PM
Author: concupiscible business firm international law enforcement agency

Hatchet, My Side of the Mountain for starters

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519476)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:30 PM
Author: big dun water buffalo

i think my side of the mountain was one of his summer reading assignments



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519493)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:34 PM
Author: concupiscible business firm international law enforcement agency

Where the Red Fern Grows, All Quiet on the Western Front, Celestine Prophecy, Lord of the Flies.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519513)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:37 PM
Author: big dun water buffalo

they did lord of the flies already. ill look up some of your other recs, ty!

he just finished peak, so hatchet is a good one

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519523)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:45 PM
Author: concupiscible business firm international law enforcement agency

180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519559)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 4:01 PM
Author: Coral trailer park

The eyes and the impossible

sourdough

heart of samurai

artemis

rocket boys

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519953)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 5:13 PM
Author: hyperactive tripping temple dopamine

rocket boys is 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520282)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 10:18 PM
Author: Coral trailer park

Every kid should read. It’s top of that list imo

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521280)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 12:34 AM
Author: hyperactive tripping temple dopamine



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521595)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 10:54 AM
Author: Shimmering jet-lagged corn cake twinkling uncleanness

weird group called the "rocket boys" ran the party scene at my rural West Virginia high school

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49530601)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:54 PM
Author: bronze nubile location

CR GOAT status books, but would one be "past" those by HS, especially later in HS?

My 7 year old just read--and really enjoyed--Hatchet.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519755)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 3:00 PM
Author: big dun water buffalo

he’s 12/7th grade so i said high school since that’s more his reading level

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519767)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:28 PM
Author: Slate hominid black woman

The Swimming-Pool Library (fulano)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519483)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:29 PM
Author: big dun water buffalo

ty for the recs, this is helpful

i just asked him what book he’s reading (we’re on a flight) and its war and peace

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519489)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:24 PM
Author: sticky lime chapel

Waste of time unless he's secretly 30+ years old and has read tons of other Russian lit and has a solid grounding in religion and philosophy.

Count of Monte Cristo is a goat novel that is also accessible and really exciting.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519679)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:29 PM
Author: amber library

seconding count of monte cristo

three musketeers is also great and vastly superior to any adaptation

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519686)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:29 PM
Author: Spectacular Center Psychic

JackTales 🤡😳

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519490)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 4:02 PM
Author: Coral trailer park

those are for reading out loud , clown



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519956)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:30 PM
Author: judgmental vermilion school cafeteria masturbator

The Boy with Pink Hair by Perez Hilton

https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Pink-Hair-Perez-Hilton/dp/0451234200

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519492)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:32 PM
Author: excitant stage circlehead

Quo Vadis (Sienkiewicz)

We Were Soldiers Once… And Young (Moore & Galloway)

Endurance: Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage (Lansing)

The Way of Men (Donovan)



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519502)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:35 PM
Author: Zombie-like becky

are you seriously recommending a book on manhood written by a homo?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519701)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:45 PM
Author: excitant stage circlehead

I’m not even sure which author you’re talking about, though I’m 99.99% sure that it’s not Moore or Galloway

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519724)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 3:41 PM
Author: Zombie-like becky

lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519873)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 6:48 PM
Author: onyx pea-brained selfie

he doesn't like the term gay or homo and instead prefers "androphile," a term he uses to describe romance and sex between masculine men

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Donovan

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49528627)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 3:46 PM
Author: hyperactive tripping temple dopamine

Endurance: Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage 18000

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519898)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 7:28 PM
Author: excitant stage circlehead

No young man of any worth can finish that and not have a better idea of what it means to be a man and to experience the thrill, the triumph, of surviving impossible odds. Leadership, loyalty, discipline. And then they get home and are like, fuck it, sign me up for WWI’s trenches

My middle son needed a bit of coaching on perseverance, so we read this together and then did a HARD AS FUCK mountain bike camping trip in western NC.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520739)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:33 PM
Author: Blue exhilarant lay

James Bond novels

Conan (only read the flemming and howard originals though)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519505)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:39 PM
Author: Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman

The first Bond novel is so good. Amazing call.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519535)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:51 PM
Author: Blue exhilarant lay

Once I got into the first one I burned through the rest (12 or so) in a summer. all were 180. I tried reading the non-flemming but its not the same. They don't write novels like that anymore.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519587)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:50 PM
Author: Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman

Any chance you can recommend your top 5? I need some new books to read.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519744)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 10:06 AM
Author: Blue exhilarant lay

1. Goldfinger

2. Moonraker

3. Casino Royale

4. From Russia With Love

5. On Her Majesty's Secret Service

the order changes based on mood but these five are in a tier above.

the rest are all solid. for example, Diamonds are Forever is my least favorite and that is still leagues better than any modern espionage novel.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49522101)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 21st, 2025 6:44 PM
Author: Appetizing Saffron Native Patrolman

tyft. I loved Moonraker. Will check out Goldfinger next I think.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49528612)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:46 PM
Author: hyperactive tripping temple dopamine

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519729)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:42 PM
Author: Light theatre boiling water

Anabasis

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519542)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:48 PM
Author: Zombie-like becky



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519572)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:43 PM
Author: cobalt floppy digit ratio locale

Flowers for Algernon

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519548)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:48 PM
Author: Zombie-like becky

The Lessons of History - Will & Ariel Durant

Man's Search for Meaning - Viktor Frankl

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519568)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 1:55 PM
Author: Splenetic talented church mediation

a song of ice and fire. I'm not a fantasy guy and I loved it. great series for boys who like knights, politics, and violence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519602)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:30 PM
Author: Clear Church Building Tank

Patrick O'Byrne's Master and Commander and related books in the series

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519689)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:36 PM
Author: massive school ape

Hardy Boys (how old is your kid?)

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

Dune

anything recent by Lawrence Millman

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519705)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:37 PM
Author: Zombie-like becky

> Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

lol

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519706)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 3:01 PM
Author: big dun water buffalo

read that, among others, for my contemporary thought class in hs. book was so so but class was 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519770)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:38 PM
Author: hyperactive tripping temple dopamine

zorba the greek



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519710)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:49 PM
Author: excitant stage circlehead



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519736)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 2:53 PM
Author: bronze nubile location

Several good recs already upthread. Some others:

The Things They Carried

Mark Twain--starting with Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn

1984

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (and throw in The Hobbit)

Infinite Jest

Moby Dick

Blood Meridian

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49519751)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 7:30 PM
Author: excitant stage circlehead

Cr. list

I feel like The Things They Carried got a bit overexposed to the hopelessly feminized librarian space for a time and was looked down upon as kind of trite. But it’s 180

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520745)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 7:55 PM
Author: soul-stirring theater stage mexican

The Things They Carried is the most classic writer's favorite. You shouldn't look down on librarian recs. This is all they do

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520815)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 10:12 PM
Author: bronze nubile location



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521254)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 22nd, 2025 11:44 AM
Author: onyx pea-brained selfie

agree with the first sentence and rec. need to exercise caution with the second and third sentences just given that the values may not be stoic masculine warrior

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49530736)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 5:09 PM
Author: Contagious deep crotch mental disorder

Watership Down

A Day No Pigs Would Die

2nd Where the Red Fern Grows

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520246)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 7:33 PM
Author: disrespectful hissy fit



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520756)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 18th, 2025 7:40 PM
Author: orchid confused azn locus

Starship Troopers

Enders Game

Johnny Tremain

Childhoods End

Rama



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49520778)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 12:16 AM
Author: cerebral faggot firefighter

A CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521578)



Reply Favorite

Date: December 19th, 2025 2:11 AM
Author: Light theatre boiling water

Neon Bible better rec for younger kid

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521698)



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Date: December 19th, 2025 2:23 AM
Author: Violent sound barrier

abridged edgar allen poe short stories

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49521706)



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Date: December 26th, 2025 12:37 AM
Author: Swashbuckling Overrated Striped Hyena Wagecucks

https://kommandostore.com/products/republic-of-south-africa-unconventional-warfare-complete-book-set?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5811707&forum_id=2#49540099)