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Any been in an experience like this in biglaw before?
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Date: May 14th, 2019 7:52 PM Author: laughsome abusive step-uncle's house Just curious what the experience of other associates out there is. I'm what's considered a high-risk/difficult substance practice in a firm where there are less than .5 partners for every associate. Understandably, the partners don't have time to explain things, let you know what to look for in the documents, etc. A few examples of my associate life:
First, I have spent hours of my life waiting outside partners' offices, sending follow up emails, texting them and calling them to get them to review a document by the time that has been requested. They make the deadline very rarely and I am stuck in the position of being chased by other attorneys while waiting partner sign off all the time. I think the worst was when I went to sleep with my phone next to me, got an email several hours later, and it was photos of a hand mark up sent to me over 8 emails. I had to implement and turn those comments to corporate that night, as this was a cross border client and the corporate lawyers were up waiting for these comments so they could send the document out.
Second, I have, more times than I can count, been asked to review a document of a type that I have never seen before. I have not been given even an idea of what the applicable law is or what to look out for other than the fact that I am an [x] type of lawyer, so it has something to do with that specialty. Partner isn't available to answer questions and there are no midlevels or seniors on the deal because we few midlevels/seniors.
Third, I have on multiple occasions emailed partners with questions from clients, other firm attorneys, accounting firms, etc. I typically try to answer the question, tell the partner what I think the answer should be and ask them to confirm. Crickets. Many times, I just never get a response. Same thing with documents that need partner sign off before going to the client. If not pressing, it just doesn't get reviewed or acknowledged as an outstanding item. As a junior, I do get nervous about sending out documents/answering questions without review or discussion and I don't have seniors/midlevels on these deals).
While for some, this may be an environment in which they can strive. I don't think it is for me. I need a little bit more direction and responsiveness and I'm finding that I am putting too much stress and energy thinking about whether I need to follow up with a partner or just make decisions (which they will then call you out immediately if you make the wrong call). What has been the experience of others? |
Date: May 14th, 2019 8:00 PM Author: massive boyish friendly grandma lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235413) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:10 PM Author: Arousing puppy sanctuary (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235454) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:01 PM Author: Red area gaping out the practice area. ERISA? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235417) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:03 PM Author: massive boyish friendly grandma lol at ERISA having any associate:partner leverage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235427) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:43 PM Author: green house circlehead This is tax or import/export (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235898) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:37 PM Author: pearl boistinker newt It's tax. The beholden to accounting firms nonsense seals it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236194) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 8:51 AM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237391) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:03 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office This is all accurate and par for the course. Also being given a hard deadline like Monday night, you stay up until 2 to get it done then get high level comments requiring a total re work Friday at 6 PM.
Welcome! |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:04 PM Author: massive boyish friendly grandma lol, obeezy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235430) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:09 PM Author: cheese-eating resort OP must be a first year if that's all he had to complain about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235453) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:11 PM Author: Chestnut aphrodisiac foreskin (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235463) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:11 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235465) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:16 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office I'm a senior associate and some of what he listed are the very worst aspects of big law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235481) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:20 PM Author: pink medicated abode goyim (Guy about to get shitcanned) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235506) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:22 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Nah. I'm well liked. Have at least two more reviews - partnership not out of the question though it isnt especially appealing to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235519) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:11 PM Author: laughsome abusive step-uncle's house You’re ok with being of counsel? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235787) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:13 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Yeah. Not especially interested in chasing clients and cash for the rest of my life. Plan to move to something more chill in the near term. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235795) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:39 PM Author: laughsome abusive step-uncle's house Makes sense, seems kind of pathetic though, you'll never own anything (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235887) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:44 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office I genuinely don't know what you mean. We probably have very different outlooks on life and how work should fit in with one's life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235902) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:47 PM Author: Disgusting nursing home fortuitous meteor He probably means creating something and making it successful, like starting your own firm rather than calling a jewish man boss (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235914) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:49 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Oh lol no I'm good. Gonna keep stacking cash then become a teacher or something else chill with lots of time to pursue my myriad hobbies and interests and raise my kids. Gonna be 180!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235928) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 8:43 AM Author: jade stirring stead legal warrant There's nothing chill about becoming a teacher, especially when all your social skills have been warped by years of interacting only with lawyers. It is hard as fuck to manage a classroom and there is also a lot of work in the early years doing lesson plans and figuring out how to grade efficiently. Sure it is chill once you have a good job in a good school with 20 years experience and teach the same classes every year from notes. But most people don't last 3 years and everyone wants those good jobs. Guess who's hiring entry-level second career types? (hint: not places you want to work) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237360) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:22 AM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Fair. But it can't be worse than biglaw bro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237543) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:23 AM Author: Adventurous range Just depends. I know the PE teacher at my kids elementary school and he doesn’t do shit. Just tosses out dodgeballs and let’s do. I’m going in for that gig when he retires (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237550) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 10:59 AM Author: jade stirring stead legal warrant Obviously PE and coaching are radically better because there is no grading, less planning and paperwork, and at least some of the kids are having fun. But comp and job security are usually commensurately lower. If you find a school where they love sports or the union has PE teachers in the same payscale and job protections as classroom teachers it is like winning the lottery. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237940) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:54 PM Author: Vivacious Site (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236295) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 8:10 AM Author: frisky french chef I only read the first sentence of the second paragraph and I could tell this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237217) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:10 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath Don't let it stress you out--sure, the corporate guys are gunning really hard for something, but if they can't send it subject to specialist comments, then they're just going to have to wait. And the partner has a million things to deal with besides this. So you tell them to follow up, you follow up diligently, and then...that's it. Don't worry about it.
As for the being asked questions--again, you cover your ass. 10000% better to be the position of "junior who has to hem and haw because he doesn't know anything" than "dipshit who just blew up our ERISA/tax/antitrust/regulatory structuring because he thought he could be a big guy without a partner's support". |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:18 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Cr.
And if somebody asks you to send your comments before a partner in your field has reviewed just say no. Nothing good can come from that |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:20 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath Depending on the firm and the partner and the matter, eventually--EVENTUALLY you will reach a point where you're more or less expected to turn certain comments without running it by a partner.
But OP is not there yet. |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:22 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Fair. Also depends on the deal and nature of comments. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235521) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:24 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235527) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:20 PM Author: Red area gaping agree 100% with second paragraph. you actually have built in cover for every single situation. you absolutely cannot respond to the client or opposing counsel without a partner's sign off. you can write your thoughts with a million caveats if you're confident enough. but just ingrain this in your head: you cannot respond without partner sign off (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235504) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 8:22 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath Yeah
Agreed about the caveats point, too. |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:03 PM Author: Zippy lemon hall half-breed All cr. And if it's really pushing the deadline, they can reserve for OP's regulatory comments. It's lame and it will temporarily piss them off but it happens vs. losing a day on the entire agreement. This is also far better than sending just the junior's comments and then appearing to retrade on the next draft because the partner reworked them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235993) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:27 PM Author: ruddy hospital this. send it to the corp/m&a guys with the typical junior caveats and they'll send it out with the general [insert specialist] caveats. the corp/m&a guys will push it as far along as they can until specialists absolutely have to land on this shit. then the specialists will handle everything at the last minute because they're good for nothing.
unless you're tax/antitrust. in which case the partners should be involved, heavily. |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:44 PM Author: green house circlehead http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=301230 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235904) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:25 AM Author: Bespoke Public Bath Still a good discussion tho (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237561) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:53 PM Author: Irradiated Wild Temple LJL at this profession. Imagine if surgeons needed comments from six different people before making a cut. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235949) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:54 PM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office (guy totally unfamiliar with the all the absurd processes and mounds of paperwork and routines surgeons have to go through) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235954) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 2:44 PM Author: metal university hissy fit (guy who thinks it's necessary to point out that valen is a fucking retard) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38238986) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 9:59 PM Author: Cerebral Cowardly Feces lmao you are clearly a tax lawyer, which is the one practice area where missing something that’s not obvious can cost billions. If we were just talking about something easy like UCC filings that would be one thing, but you are fucked. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38235978) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:05 PM Author: Zippy lemon hall half-breed tax or regulatory - some black box practice to corp/M&A lawyers
if the entire deal or pricing or a special indemnity depends upon, e.g., transferring radio stations or leaky underground storage tanks, then OP had better not fuck something up if that's what he's working on |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:19 PM Author: Cerebral Cowardly Feces Do regulatory lawyers have to deal with accounting firms? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236076) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 11:54 PM Author: Red area gaping Definitely tax and too junior to have technical skill. Eventually he’ll be able to provide comments that are technically correct but caveated as subject to partner review (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236541) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:31 AM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237578) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:08 PM Author: Cerise Locus This is every day life of an inhouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236019) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:26 PM Author: Cerebral Cowardly Feces Real talk: find a new firm. It’s not like this everywhere and if you are trapped under a partner that makes you look like you can’t meet deadlines, or worse causes you to make a serious mistake, you’re going to get a bad reputation. You also are not going to develop in your practice area at this place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236118) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:53 PM Author: pink medicated abode goyim (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236289) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 11:12 PM Author: gay sick church This a million times over. Run from that place as I suspect the partner will throw you to the wolves without hesitation (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236376) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 7:23 AM Author: Alcoholic Beta Principal's Office Sucks to burn one of your free laterals on something like this though..... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237098) |
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Date: May 14th, 2019 10:56 PM Author: massive boyish friendly grandma How are you guys falling for this flame thread? Well, I understand O'beezy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38236308) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 2:45 PM Author: metal university hissy fit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38238995) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 1:30 AM Author: Yellow dilemma 1. Follow up with Partner via EMAIL. 2. Forward follow up email to the person chasing you and say you are chasing. 3. Call Partner and hang up after the first ring. 4. You have officially done everything you can, never mention it again. If someone follows up with you, repeat steps 1-3.
For client, send acknowledgement of receipt to client. Then repeat steps 1-4.
For opposing counsel, ignore completely. If they call, don't pick up. |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 8:51 AM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (Guy who gets it) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237390) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:20 AM Author: Cerebral Cowardly Feces (future Cravath partner) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237535) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:29 AM Author: pink medicated abode goyim You have legs, you should be going to partners office to corner him/her (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237575) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 10:22 AM Author: hateful codepig Ljl I’ve literally had a psycho partner who was never in office and/or door always shut or on phone, say this to me. He yelled you got two legs why didn’t you just get me. Sure boss no prob one neat trick. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237793) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 10:23 AM Author: sable mewling stage electric furnace also, bill 0.5 for each of these tasks (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237794) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 10:30 AM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (Guy who gets it) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237820) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 3:03 PM Author: lascivious cordovan stage national security agency (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38239116) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 7:27 AM Author: Motley parlor dog poop Not a lawyer but lol at responding to emails from Melvin dorks like you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237102) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:36 AM Author: odious library psychic fewer than, not less than (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237590) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 2:47 PM Author: metal university hissy fit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38239003) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 10:32 AM Author: Pale trip set goal in life Lol, photos of the hand markup is insane boomerism but Ive seen stuff like that.
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Date: May 15th, 2019 11:01 AM Author: Histrionic persian it's called responsibility. you either gotta take it gtfo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38237949) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 11:19 AM Author: jade stirring stead legal warrant Additional real talk: this is happening to you because you are staffed on all the matters where the partners DGAF. If this shit mattered they would be engaged in the work and/or would have a counsel/senior associate managing you and keeping shit moving. But every firm has some chunk of work that can’t support this level of staffing and is not directly related to the specialist partners core interests/practice (e.g. funds tax partner has to do 10 shitty securities offerings per year to placate securities partner who lives off this work).
So long as you are nice to the corporate juniors and pretend that you are also very troubled by the failure to achieve partner sign off on version 12 out of 37 of the OM at 1 AM, there will not be any consequences. You only get fucked if you piss off someone by ignoring their requests, yelling at them or sending a shitty email. Everyone who has been in a law firm for three years knows to expect flaky behavior from specialist partners and inability to sign off by specialist juniors.
Over time, this will either get better (you get staffed on better matters, people answer more of your emails sooner and invite you to meetings, you get some small degree of autonomy to sign off on irrelevant crap without getting yelled at) or it won’t (you get stuck on the same sort of shit matters forever and spend your days explaining to a rotating cast of clueless junior corporate associates why you can’t just call your boss’s cellphone repeatedly until he answers, and why you, a grown man with 20 years of education and 5 years of experience, lack authority to sign off on Cahill’s standard comments to the gross-up). If the latter, definitely lateral as recommended above.
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Date: May 15th, 2019 3:25 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath Excellent advice and good poast moniker synergy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38239220) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 11:24 AM Author: Filthy reading party Eventually some boomer partner is going to have a totally insincere mentoring chat with you and tell you “take ownership” of your matters. Shortly thereafter you will do exactly that and be reamed out for not running something by your partner. This cycle will repeat several times and you will then be fired.
Get out of this situation. |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 3:25 PM Author: Bespoke Public Bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38239221) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 3:48 PM Author: Judgmental Fantasy-prone Faggot Firefighter (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38239322) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 7:44 PM Author: racy aquamarine orchestra pit depressive (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38240491) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 9:35 PM Author: lascivious cordovan stage national security agency (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38241094) |
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Date: July 15th, 2020 7:28 PM Author: Excitant Milky Dragon (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#40614325) |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 2:50 PM Author: lilac headpube Good thing tax comments don't matter on most agreements.
Also, this happens in corporate practice groups all the time too. |
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Date: May 15th, 2019 3:41 PM Author: pink medicated abode goyim Hi busy partner,
I’m following up on the below and moving this to the top of your inbox. Please let me know if you have any comments to my markup. If it would be helpful, I would be happy to discuss and walk you through the issues. Corporate has asked for comments by COB today, so we should get back to them soon.
Many thanks,
Diligent associate |
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Date: June 19th, 2019 11:19 AM Author: Cerebral Cowardly Feces Update? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38410420) |
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Date: June 19th, 2019 7:41 PM Author: Cerebral Cowardly Feces (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#38412620) |
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Date: July 10th, 2020 10:14 PM Author: gay sick church (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4261715&forum_id=2#40583963) |