So obvious that LIFE begins at CONCEPTION
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: June 24th, 2021 10:06 AM Author: Sapphire Nofapping Parlor Marketing Idea
if life is just dividing cells technically life began 3 billion years ago
if human life is consciousness then you have to wait for some brain development
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678414) |
Date: June 24th, 2021 10:14 AM Author: sienna slimy stag film
I don’t follow that debate, but “life begins at conception” seems like a perfectly reasonable and strong starting premise.
I mean the procedure is literally called “abortion.”
An abortion if what? Of life.
So it seems like pro-abortion folks have to concede this premise and focus on “oh well it’s morally okay to kill a fetus at this stage or that stage”
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678466) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 10:43 AM Author: chestnut appetizing roast beef cruise ship
1. Should we not making stealing illegal because "people will find a way to steal"
2. Every stat shows that once Roe passed, abortions skyrocketed. They went from 10 to 50k illegal abortions annually (numbers vary widely obviously) to over a million.
You need to stop. You have not thought about this issue enough.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678656) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 11:05 AM Author: chestnut appetizing roast beef cruise ship
Intense eye contact does not sound like a line to draw between "its ok to kill" and "its not ok kill".
Also, I am addressing the argument "well the baby is going to likely have a hard life so its ok to kill it before its born". That argument is absurd on its face because of its similar application to toddlers born to shitty parents. I was not making a broader point beyond that.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678769)
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Date: June 24th, 2021 12:00 PM Author: Cobalt headpube
>Intense eye contact does not sound like a line to draw between "its ok to kill" and "its not ok kill".
how many times are you going to assume your conclusion as part of your reasoning
if you're trying to prove abortion is killing, you can't assume it's killing as part of your argument
here's an argument: there is a point between conception and birth where abortion becomes wrong because the fetus has become alive but unborn; aborting a blastocyst is fine because it hasn't reached that point; when a woman has been pregnant 9mos and the kid is about to be born, aborting it is wrong because it's an actual human being at that point
i don't know where the line is, so it seems both compassionate and straightforward to allow the pregnant woman to make the decision rather than me imposing my will on everyone, but once you get out of that fuzzy "somewhere around here life-hood attains" then it's fine to make it illegal
that's how we operate pretty much all other laws. Like it's immoral to fuck an 11yo, but it's moral to fuck an 18yo. We argue over where that line is between those two easy value judgments.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679055) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 12:03 PM Author: Cobalt headpube
>Do we define the end of someone’s life as when they lose consciousness?
We actually don't have a good definition for the end of someone's life, so physicians are trained to use a series of tests, basically like the balancing and factorial tests we have in law
until relatively recently in medical practice the definition was "his heart stopped"
and it's entirely possible as science advances we'll have to revise it again
if we get good enough at prolonging life and fixing diseases and injuries, it might just be defined as "unable to return to normal function"
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679070) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 10:37 AM Author: floppy gaping
not always. as an example, I know someone who while pregnant, the child had a stroke which stopped the development of her brain.
she was born and physically grows but cannot communicate in any form, walk, move, eat on her own etc. She doesn't even cry when she's hungry or needs something.
Is this person "conscious" in any way that makes humans unique? More so than a dog?
I would say not, however, only a monster would be comfortable with killing this child.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678618) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 10:32 AM Author: apoplectic mildly autistic party of the first part school
FYI the arguments made in favor of abortion (i.e. denying the humanity of an unborn child) can be easily made to deny the humanity of other people (plenty of past examples of this from slavery to ethnic cleansings).
We may live to see that argument transition in this country.
FYI: most defenders of abortion understand it's murder, they just hold other moral priorities above there aversion to murder in the case of abortion. We may live to see this popular twisted moral framework applied in other contexts in this country.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678582) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 10:58 AM Author: Talented Arrogant Home Laser Beams
there are certainly people who have lost all touch with their humanity that they could kill a newborn, or an even older child... and of course someone who worked at PP, particularly in DC could be such a person.. almost by definition, a person not capable of doing that, would not work at pp.
i just think most libs dont think alot of issues through logically.. or even if they try to, they get confused and avoid the "scary" lines of thought, and then just end up chalking things up to "nuance", well there's all this nuance you see, all this GREY AREA, you wouldnt be able to grasp it, reptile. you can rationalize almost anything if you make it fuzzy enough.
another point i think many people dont arrive at their own conclusions.. they view opinions the way they view clothing brands. whats fashionable right now? what can i virtue signal with? they adopt those opinions, and pick up the pre-fabricated talking points in "support" of those "opinions" and are gtg!
im saying all this not to remove agency from them. they are adults and are are responsible for their opinions and actions, even if they did not arrive at their opinions on their own.
i just have a feeling majority of them can still be saved, IF they are made to grasp that killing a fetus is killing a human life. i really dont think majority of them have ever though about the issue in those terms, and instead avoid it and focus on "choice", "womens rights", particularly because holding those opinions is "socially acceptable" in any "coastal elite" circles, and it's hard to go against the grain. very few people have the strength of character to go against what majority around them are saying.
how we go about convincing them, is of course a difficult topic, one i do not have an answer to right now.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678736) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 11:07 AM Author: apoplectic mildly autistic party of the first part school
I agree with all of this, but you don't see one problem: a lot of women have had abortions, and almost all women have a friend who have had an abortion.
There is a story (or myth) that there was a German commander in Russia who wanted (or ordered) that all of his soldiers, from private to company staff, had to participate in the shooting of a civilian. The reason he did so was so that all of them would have a reason to defend what they were doing, that all human beings believe that they are a force of good, and if they did it, and their friends did it, it is morally justifiable.
To argue with a woman who has had an abortion that abortion is morally wrong is a no-go. She doesn't consider herself a murderer, and even if she has lingering doubts, she sure as shit isn't going to admit it. There have been 66 million abortions since Roe.
Thus, there will never be a consensus is this country on the issue if solely for the reason that so many have done this.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678791)
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Date: June 24th, 2021 11:26 AM Author: Talented Arrogant Home Laser Beams
That's an excellent point of course, and that story (whether true or not) is a great way to illustrate it.
I agree fully that is probably the state of affairs, at least on the coasts, although i would like to see the data on that statement ("a lot of women have had abortions, and almost all women have a friend who have had an abortion."). I think we have learned very well recently that it is not beyond libs to outright fabricate "studies", "polls", etc, in order to further convince society to move in that direction. And I think likely there have been studies on this very topic that were created solely to convince people "well, everybody's doing it, its ok!"
Again, I conceded I do not have a strategy on changing people's minds en masse on this topic, however I would warn against making statements like "there will never be a consensus is this country on the issue". This strikes me as very defeatist. "Blackpilling" is just not a viable strategy and ultimately just nihilism.
I believe all people are redeemable until they die. Whether they will have a coming to God moment or not, or what would trigger that I dont know. I just think we shouldnt write anybody off.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678862) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 11:20 AM Author: apoplectic mildly autistic party of the first part school
The thing is, the "woman's rights" isn't bullshit. So much of a modern woman's place in the world relies upon abortion being legal. Women cannot be equal with men if they cannot have control as to when they will be pregnant.
Why should a woman go to law school if she can become pregnant and have to abandon her firm for months due to the baby? How can you expect elite female athletes to train when their athletic careers can be taken away at a moment's notice by pregnancy? How can you expect a woman to achieve financial independence (and the consumer spending that comes with that) if her time and money can be taken by an unplanned child.
The practical reasons why women need abortion on demand go on and on, but the heart of the matter is that they cannot be socially equal to men - meaning sexually equal to men - if they cannot have consequence free sex. So much of society is dictated by sex and access to abortion is a cornerstone of women's social liberation. Nature itself relegates women to a 2nd class status, but abortion on demand frees women from that status.
I would argue that the entire women's equality movement is predicated on access to abortion on demand. Women for generations have understood this, which is why some women will react to arguments about how abortion is wrong the same way that a black person would react to arguments about how the abolition of slavery is wrong, they perceive the argument as being that they should accept a lower status in society.
The reason why women go 'nanas over abortion is because they understand that their equality with men, in every possible way, is predicated on access to abortion on demand.
So some women, and especially hard driven striver women, known damn well that a dead baby or two is a small price to pay in achieving their dreams and goals. And women being women, and women think differently than men, tend to fall back on shitty sophistry to justify themselves on the issue of abortion. However, the issue is equality.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678850) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 2:39 PM Author: apoplectic mildly autistic party of the first part school
Two points: the reality of sex is that there isn't always protection. I'm not talking about being responsible, I'm talking about being equal.
The second is that this issue is as much ideological as it is practical. I would guess that most professional women do not have abortions. However, it being there if they need it is what is important. There is a similar argument to be made for guns under the 2nd amendment, where the people most passionate about owning a gun are probably the most unlikely to ever use one to shoot another person, but they are the most passionate about their 2A rights.
The truth is that most abortions are done to minorities in blue cities (maybe a vast majority of abortions). However, black women are not the ones in the street marching and screeching about their rights, UMC white women are the ones who are most passionate about this issue.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42680033)
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Date: June 24th, 2021 12:14 PM Author: Cobalt headpube
Numbers 5:11-31
quoted, in part,
"20 . . . if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”"
Some translations use "thigh wasting" presumably because talking about miscarriages was taboo, but the underlying original text is pretty straightforward in that it talks about wombs and miscarriages
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679117) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 12:11 PM Author: Cobalt headpube
ordeal of the bitter water
basically if a husband thinks his wife cheated on him, he takes her to a priest, the priest makes a concoction she drinks, and it induces a miscarriage IFF she has committed adultery
technically, it induces a miscarriage if she has EVER committed adultery, even if the current pregnancy is a faithful one, so it's worse than just "terminate immoral pregnancies" it's "terminate any pregnancy if the woman has EVER been an adulteress in the past"
there's scholarship about this concoction, which in part is made from dust scooped off the ground, that suggests the dust might have (unknown to scientifically illiterate people) a fungal abortofascient
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679106) |
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Date: June 25th, 2021 3:12 AM Author: Irradiated Corner Dysfunction
Numbers 5 doesn’t presuppose a pregnancy, just defilement or a claim of adultery. Symptoms of the “curse” describe infertility, not a miscarriage. The Priest’s test is concerned with giving the issue to God to determine adultery and to reward (no harm) or punish (barrenness) accordingly. Without an explicit mention of pregnancy or miscarriage, this passage can’t be used to justify abortion, because a clear reading only describes God punishing adultery with barrenness. Someone could argue, “well if there is a pregnancy, then the curse of infertility would terminate it, so it’s effectively the same result.” Even if Numbers 5 described a terminated pregnancy, it describes the Priest and the husband handing the matter over to the Creator, who has the power to give and take life. Here God is making the call and passing the sentence. The power to end a hypothetical pregnancy is not given to mankind. To use this ancient custom as a warrant for on-demand abortion ignores what the passage is actually about - men setting aside their personal judgement and trusting God to determine guilt.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42683243) |
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Date: June 25th, 2021 1:17 AM Author: cowardly contagious area
You are correct.
St Augustine held ensoulment to occur until 90 days after conception, and St Jerome held that abortion was not murder until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs.
Pope Innocent III officially encapsulated the “quickening” rule in ~1200, when he declared that the soul had not entered the fetus until the fetus began moving. St Thomas Aquinas concurred and his writing reflect the same thought. 400 years later, Pope Gregory XIV reaffirmed that this was official Catholic doctrine.
It wasn’t until 1869 that the idea that the soul entered the fetus at conception was adopted by the Pope, and it wasn’t until 1917 that it actually became doctrine.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42682999) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 11:13 AM Author: chestnut appetizing roast beef cruise ship
Because if consciousness is the line that you are going to draw, how does it work with:
1. newborn babies (especially premature babies who are often less mentally developed than late term fetuses).
2. Really dumb people / People who are vegetables (or near to it)
3. The uncertainty of measuring "consciousness" and the implications if you are wrong (e.g. you set the bar too high and kill a million people).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678825) |
Date: June 24th, 2021 11:25 AM Author: Rose fragrant national security agency mental disorder
yeah anybody who argues that life doesn't begin at conception is either really stupid or an insane shitlib who is only claiming that because they want abortion to remain legal
i'm still totally okay with abortion though, for the same reasons i'm okay with infanticide
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42678859) |
Date: June 24th, 2021 12:08 PM Author: Plum duck-like range
It's lulzy to consider what a rollback of abortion rights would even look like in 2020s America
We're not about to force chicks to carry rape babies, right? If you kept abortion legal for rape pregnancies you'd see a massive spike of women crying rape over sex that was actually consensual just because they don't want to keep the kid
And if the girl doesn't want to disclose who her "rapist" is? Well that's even more troublesome. You were raped by a complete stranger? We need to catch that sick fuck! They'll run a familial DNA panel, just like they do for all these decades old cold case murders that they are suddenly solving.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679093) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 12:41 PM Author: Rose fragrant national security agency mental disorder
infanticide is cr and yes it's the only actually logical and coherent position to have if you think that abortion should be allowed
abortion is a statecraft issue, not a "moral" one. you regulate and control abortion based on the needs and goals of your society. there is no coherent "moral" argument against abortion and infanticide. when you try to lay one out it's impossible to make it make any sense
like we allow women the moral agency to get pregnant whenever they want with whoever they want, but we don't allow them the moral agency to end the result of their own pregnancy....? what? obviously anyone who creates anything has the intrinsic "moral" right to decide what to do with it
i've said this in a bunch of previous abortion threads, but what 99% of anti-abortionmos actually want is to just make it illegal for women to have premarital sex or sex outside of the purposes of reproduction. which i don't necessary disagree with at all. it's just that none of these people are smart or sophisticated enough to figure out that's what they are actually after
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679280) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 1:05 PM Author: Rose fragrant national security agency mental disorder
i don't think that these two things are mutually exclusive at all (allowing abortion legally and heavily discouraging abortion as undesirable to society). this is something that i find that almost everyone misses or doesn't understand when discussing this topic
you can HEAVILY discourage and disincentivize abortion via social stigma while still legally permitting it. the result of this kind of policy is that only the most undesirable segments of your society will get abortions in almost all cases. you get a fully consensual eugenics policy, which from a statecraft perspective is an incredible achievement
we actually have something like this in place now, in real life! the overwhelming majority of abortions in the united states are done by female members of heavily undesirable segments of the population. any remotely sophisticated or high class person treats abortion as the abhorrent thing that it is, and harshly judges women who get abortions, even if they don't say it out loud - or even consciously realize it
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679419) |
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Date: June 24th, 2021 1:49 PM Author: Rose fragrant national security agency mental disorder
sure, there's less of a stigma against abortion today than there was when it was first legalized. but there's still an enormous stigma against it. no one, even shitlibs, actually get excited and happy for a woman who gets an abortion, or see it as a plus for their status rather than a minus. all that kind of "you go girl!" stuff is purely social signaling
i agree that we could be doing a much better job as a society at re-stigmatizing abortion. but considering that we are currently ruled by a hostile, occupying elite who control 99% of public opinion, it's not that bad, and there's not much we can do about it anyway other than oust these people completely
also that graph isn't labeled and i can't tell wtf the data is
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42679676) |
Date: June 24th, 2021 9:33 PM Author: thriller self-absorbed kitchen
The fact that public opinion has not moved on this issue in 50 years shows that the lib position is not "the party of science" here.
The court sort of punted at drew arbitrary lines thinking the third trimester made sense or something else would emerge that would - it never did. Most people these days know someone asking for a go fund me for a baby born at 23 weeks.
You could write a long memo on why life begins at conception and feel free pretty good about it. There's no other point in time where you could make anything other than a bullshit case that life begins then.
That's why no libs are arguing the facts - they just post the inconveniences of those facts. "What about rape?" What difference does it make? Plenty of people on Earth were the product of rape, and they were no less alive than anyone else.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42682017)
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Date: June 25th, 2021 10:32 AM Author: pink useless athletic conference community account
life obviously starts at conception and LOL at upthread panting satanists trying to convince you of the merits of baby murder without addressing the actual facts of matter.
you're going to burn in hell, faggots.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42683930) |
Date: July 11th, 2021 3:43 AM Author: Misunderstood legal warrant
I don't assign any value to a pre-sentient fetus.
I am honestly more uncomfortable hearing about pet abuse or pigs being slaughtered for food than I am about hearing a woman had an abortion.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4864017&forum_id=2#42763122) |
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