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How Whites Use Asians to Further Anti-Black racism
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:53 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Seems like hero won't listen to me and think genes are the reasons why "blacks" don't succeed. However, Tim Wise brings up an interesting viewpoint that so many people tend to ignore: blacks and Asians have different histories in this country.
Once again...RACISM.
Con-fusion Ethic: How Whites Use Asians to Further Anti-Black Racism
By Tim Wise
It happened again, for what seems like the millionth time. Once again, in response to something I said about ongoing racism in the United States, someone (a white male, naturally) pulled out the all-too-common conservative race card (oh yes, they have one), which they believe disproves the existence of racial injustice. It sounds a bit like this:
"If racism is such a big deal in America, then why have Asians done so well? Why is Asian income higher than white income? Doesn't this prove that the problem with blacks is simply a lack of effort?"
Offered this challenge most recently by a disgruntled county employee in Minneapolis who resented having to sit through a speech I had given, I rolled my eyes, took a deep breath and considered the irony of the query (ironic because it always comes from whites who insist on their "color-blindness") before issuing my reply.
As I pondered my response, I thought about the Asian women working twelve hours a day in garment sweatshops both abroad and in places like Los Angeles to make clothes for people like this guy's kids; and I wondered, in what sense were they "doing so well?"
I thought about the Vietnamese youth in California who are profiled as potential gang members by police, for wearing the wrong clothes or driving in the "wrong" neighborhoods; and I wondered, in what sense were they "doing so well?"
I thought about the Asian families whose members have to put in 80 hours a week just to keep their heads above water; and I wondered, in what sense were they "doing so well?"
I thought about the Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi taxi drivers who endure crappy working conditions, customers who get pissy about their accents or "attitudes," and cops who are responsible for nearly eighty percent of all anti-South Asian attacks-often against hack drivers in places like New York; and I wondered, in what sense were they "doing so well?"
I thought about the demonization of Wen Ho Lee, and of Chinese American political contributors during the Clinton Administration; and the beating death of Vincent Chin; and the persistent refrain that the Japanese are "buying up America;" and I wondered, in what sense were they "doing so well?"
But instead of getting into all of those things, which likely wouldn't have been seen as responsive by my detractor, I offered the following.
First, I noted that the Asian "model minority" myth has long been a staple of white conservative race commentary, though rarely have members of the various Asian communities in the U.S. pushed the notion themselves. The genesis of this argumentation goes back to the 1950's and '60's, when prominent magazines ran articles lauding the "hard-working" Chinese or Japanese, and explicitly contrasting their "success" with the "failure" of African Americans.
Of course, none of these ever editorialized in favor of lifting the immigration restrictions that had kept Asian populations small in the U.S. from the 1880's until 1965, despite their respect for their favored persons of color. Neither they nor any adherent to the model minority image spoke out against internment of "hard-working" Japanese Americans during World War Two, or the killing of hard-working Southeast Asians during the Vietnam War.
Secondly, I explained that comparisons between blacks and Asian Americans overlook a number of differences between them. Whereas the African American population represents a cross-section of background and experience, the APA community is highly self-selected. Voluntary migrants from nations that are not contiguous to their country of destination tend to be those with the skills and money needed to leave their home country in the first place. As many scholars have found, Asian immigrants are largely drawn from an occupational and educational elite in their countries of origin.
Indeed, Asian "success" in the U.S. relative to others is largely due to immigration policies that have favored immigrants with pre-existing skills and education. As the Glass Ceiling Commission discovered in 1995, between two-thirds and three-quarters of the highly-educated APA community in the U.S. already had college degrees or were in college upon their arrival.
Thanks to preferences for educated immigrants, Asian Americans are two-thirds more likely than whites and three times more likely than blacks to have a college degree. More than eight in ten Indian immigrants from 1966-1977 had advanced degrees and training in such areas as science, medicine or as engineers.
Pre-existing educational advantages are implicated in Asian success once here; but they hardly indicate genetic or cultural superiority. After all, to claim superior Asian genes or culture as the reasons for achievement in the U.S. requires one to ignore the rampant poverty and lack of success for persons from the same genetic or cultural backgrounds in their countries of origin. There is no shortage, after all, of desperately poor Asians in the slums of Manila, Calcutta and Hong Kong: testament to the absurdity of cultural superiority claims for Asians as a group.
Indeed, ethnic Koreans in Japan, as well as the Burakumin there-a minority treated similarly to the Dalits in India-consistently underperform economically and educationally, compared to dominant Japanese. They are both the targets of discrimination, and although they are culturally and genetically indistinguishable from other Koreans or Japanese, they are consistently found at the bottom of Japanese society, and do worse than others in Japan, or than Koreans in Korea.
Not only does this debunk the notion of pan-Asian superiority in genes or culture, but it also suggests that a group's caste status influences group outcomes: much as with blacks in the U.S., whose position has been similar to the Burakumin and ethnic Koreans in Japan.
The primary argument put forth by those who push the model minority myth is that APA income in the U.S. is higher than the average for other people of color and even whites. As such, it is suggested, racial discrimination cannot be a significant problem any longer.
But the data that shows Asians doing better in terms of income than whites, is family and/or household data, not per capita income data. This is important because APA households and families tend to have more family members (thus, slightly higher incomes are made to stretch over more persons), and more earners per family (thus, it takes more family members in the workforce in order to earn only slightly more than whites, with fewer income earners).
The average Asian household size, for example, is 3.3 persons, compared to only 2.5 per household for whites. Likewise, Asian American families are more likely than white families to have two income earners, and nearly twice as likely to have three earners. So while Asian household and family income is higher than that for whites, the median income per person is lower for Asians: as much as $2000 less annually.
An additional reason why the average income of Asian families is higher than that of whites is because Asians are concentrated in parts of the country that have higher average incomes and costs of living. The three states with the largest Asian populations and a disproportionate share of the overall Asian population (California, New York and Hawaii), rank 13th, 4th, and 16th in terms of average income: all within the top third of states. Whereas 76% of all Asian Americans live in the higher-income regions of the West and Northeast, only 41% of whites and 28% of blacks are in these regions.
Over half of all APA's in the U.S. live in just five major U.S. cities (Honolulu, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago and New York City): all of which have higher than average household incomes, and much higher costs of living than most of the U.S.
According to the Census Bureau, in 1996, median household income was about $35,500. But in states with disproportionate shares of Asians (NY and Hawaii, for example), median household income was $39,000 and $42,000 respectively. This means that APA median income will be skewed upward, relative to the rest of the country, but given cost of living differences, actual disposable income and living standards will be no better and often worse.
More importantly, claims of Asian success obscure the fact that the Asian American child poverty rate is nearly double the white rate, and according to a New York Times report in May of 1996, Southeast Asians as a whole have the highest rates of welfare dependence of any racial or ethnic group in the United States.
Nearly half of all Southeast Asian immigrants and refugees in the U.S. live in poverty, with annual incomes in 1990 of less than $10,000 per year. Amazingly, even those Southeast Asians with college degrees face obstacles. Two-thirds of Lao and Hmong-American college grads live below the poverty level, as do nearly half of Cambodian Americans and over a third of Vietnamese Americans with degrees.
Indeed, Asian "success" rhetoric ignores the persistent barriers to advancement faced by Asians relative to whites. On average, Asian Americans with a college degree earn 11% less than comparable whites; and APA's with only a high school diploma earn, on average, 26% less than their white counterparts.
When Asian American men have qualifications that are comparable to those of white men, they still receive fewer high-ranking positions than those same white men. Asian American male engineers and scientists are twenty percent less likely than white men to move into management positions in their respective companies, despite no differences in ambition or desire for such positions.
Of course, beyond the statistics, there are obvious points to be made. First, if whites truly believe that Asians are culturally superior and add to the quality of schools and workplaces, then why aren't these folks clamoring for a massive increase in immigration from Asian nations? Why not flood the borders, since we could all benefit from a little more Asian genius? Why not have white CEO's step down from their positions and let Japanese managers take their place?
Secondly, the whites who trumpet the model minority concept would be the first to object if Asian Americans began to bump their own white children from college slots, even if they did so by way of higher test scores and "merit" indicators. Just ask yourself what would happen if next year the top 3500 applicants to U.C.-Berkeley, in terms of SAT score and grades, happened to be Asian Americans, especially since there are only 3500 slots in the freshman class.
Would the regents allow the freshman class at the state's flagship school to become 100% Asian? Or for that matter even 80% or 70%? How would white Californians react to such a development, including those who praise hard-working Asian kids for their educational excellence and scholarly achievements?
How would white alums react if their favorite "model minorities" were suddenly seen as taking slots not from black and Latino youth, but from their own white children? To ask the question is to answer it.
And finally, to argue-as supporters of the model minority myth do-that Asians "have made it, so why can't blacks," is to misunderstand the issue of moral and ethical responsibility to correct the harm of wrongful actions.
Even if we accept the notion that groups victimized by racism can "make it" without assistance, affirmative action, or reparations, that would not deny (or indeed speak to in any way) the fact that society has an obligation to compensate the victims of injustice. After all, if my leg is blown off in an industrial accident, it hardly matters that many people with only one leg go on to succeed. The issue of compensatory justice remains, irrespective of what gains one can make without compensation.
I have little reason to believe that any of this made much difference to the individual who chose that day to trumpet Asian success as a way to denigrate African Americans. Given some of his other comments-that African sexual promiscuity was to blame for AIDS on the continent, and that he resented the "fact" that his black son (presumably adopted) has more opportunity in life than his white son (despite the fact that the former is unemployed and the latter in college)-his ability to rationally decipher much of anything seems doubtful.
Nonetheless, challenging the model minority myth is a worthwhile enterprise, especially when one considers how many decent, well-meaning individuals often fall for it.
Those who trumpet "Asian values and culture" (based on stereotypical understandings of both, not unlike the white guys who covet mail-order Asian brides for their anticipated "docility"), do Asians no favors. If anything, they set them up in a way that not only harms the groups against which they are contrasted, but in a way that harms Asians as well.
To be considered a group filled with math and science geniuses and passive, sensual, and willing female companions, not only objectifies Asian Pacific Americans, but results in a special stigma for those in the various Asian groups who aren't good in school, don't know how to fix your computer nor care to do so, or who don't fit the sexist stereotypes that are so comforting to Western male tastes.
The model minority myth, in other words, is a setup: a carrot offered to certain groups so long as they don't get out of line, assert their rights, strike for better wages, or try to determine their own sexuality. And as with all carrots, there is an even bigger stick, ready to throttle those who don't go along with the game.
Ultimately, justice and equity will remain elusive so long as whites feel no compunction about using one group of color against another group of color, in an attempt to make fools of both.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017833) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:58 AM Author: Vermilion gaped goyim cuckold 10 word summary? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017838) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:58 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Those who trumpet "Asian values and culture" (based on stereotypical understandings of both, not unlike the white guys who covet mail-order Asian brides for their anticipated "docility"), do Asians no favors. If anything, they set them up in a way that not only harms the groups against which they are contrasted, but in a way that harms Asians as well.
To be considered a group filled with math and science geniuses and passive, sensual, and willing female companions, not only objectifies Asian Pacific Americans, but results in a special stigma for those in the various Asian groups who aren't good in school, don't know how to fix your computer nor care to do so, or who don't fit the sexist stereotypes that are so comforting to Western male tastes.
The model minority myth, in other words, is a setup: a carrot offered to certain groups so long as they don't get out of line, assert their rights, strike for better wages, or try to determine their own sexuality. And as with all carrots, there is an even bigger stick, ready to throttle those who don't go along with the game.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017839) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 7:59 PM Author: ebony house That's fucking retarded. Every race, gender, blah blah blah is objectified and stereotyped. And yeah, no shit some Asians have bad jobs. So does every race. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020998) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:02 PM Author: misunderstood buck-toothed background story you missed the point of the article (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028157) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 10:49 AM Author: Arrogant address "Every race, gender, blah blah blah is objectified and stereotyped."
Agreed, but there is nothing wrong with pointing out specifics of how and more importantly why...I think the reasons are the same across the board. Divide and conquer. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2061163) |
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Date: February 12th, 2005 9:43 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Good point, but this is exactly what the adcoms use in imposing the quotas in elite college admission.
All group stereotpyes are harmful, and racist in many instances, that's why the admissions process must be race blind. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2114856) |
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Date: February 12th, 2005 10:02 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Uh huh so that Asians can become the majority? Right. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2114870) |
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Date: February 12th, 2005 10:49 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Asian Americans are never going to become the "majority", a racist hysterical knee-jerk reaction again, by this misguided child, named ltorivia485. These very same comments were used against early Chinese American immigrants in the era of YELLOW PERIL. We have come full circle again with ltorivia485's comments.
They said the same things about the Jews in the elite colleges when the Ivies imposed caps and the anti-Jewish quota. Now Harvard is 33% Jewish for ttheir 2% in the population, with the Jewish quota abolished. Are Jews the majprity of Harvard? No, but Asian Ams are capped by quotas, because of racist hysterical attitudes such as, "Uh huh so that Asians can become the majority? Right."
Quotas are unconstitutional.
Read the constitution and the 14th Amendment.
ltorivia485, you are dumb and dumber!
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2114905) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:59 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender First, I noted that the Asian "model minority" myth has long been a staple of white conservative race commentary, though rarely have members of the various Asian communities in the U.S. pushed the notion themselves. The genesis of this argumentation goes back to the 1950's and '60's, when prominent magazines ran articles lauding the "hard-working" Chinese or Japanese, and explicitly contrasting their "success" with the "failure" of African Americans.
Of course, none of these ever editorialized in favor of lifting the immigration restrictions that had kept Asian populations small in the U.S. from the 1880's until 1965, despite their respect for their favored persons of color. Neither they nor any adherent to the model minority image spoke out against internment of "hard-working" Japanese Americans during World War Two, or the killing of hard-working Southeast Asians during the Vietnam War.
Secondly, I explained that comparisons between blacks and Asian Americans overlook a number of differences between them. Whereas the African American population represents a cross-section of background and experience, the APA community is highly self-selected. Voluntary migrants from nations that are not contiguous to their country of destination tend to be those with the skills and money needed to leave their home country in the first place. As many scholars have found, Asian immigrants are largely drawn from an occupational and educational elite in their countries of origin.
Indeed, Asian "success" in the U.S. relative to others is largely due to immigration policies that have favored immigrants with pre-existing skills and education. As the Glass Ceiling Commission discovered in 1995, between two-thirds and three-quarters of the highly-educated APA community in the U.S. already had college degrees or were in college upon their arrival.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017840) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:04 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha "Economic and race-based interventions have never been shown to achieve the equality that was set as their justification in the first place. After all, the numbers that matter are not the percentage of blacks on the staff or in the classroom, but grade point average, reading and math test scores, and hours spent on homework and attendance. As Thomas Sowell and Lawrence Steinberg observe, if students of all races worked equally hard, their disparate rates of success and failure would plausibly lead to explanations based on, on the one hand, racism and poverty, or, on the other hand, innate superiority or inferiority. When they differ on every measure of effort, what else would you expect?"
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021020) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:10 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender HELLO Thomas Sowell is a CONSERVATIVE. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021058) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:15 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha So what?
You are FLAMING AGAIN.
Talk to Arthur Hu.
He's an Asian American
"a bigger secret is that even the poorest Asians tended to get better grades -- if not test scores -- than more affluent whites." and of course, MOST AFFLUENT BLACKS. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021085) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:01 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender And what is your point? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021376) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:08 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Read the post below this one. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021405) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:14 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: So what's the point?
Arthur Hu said:
"Test scores and grades for blacks in integrated urban neighborhoods aren't any better than those in predominantly minority ghetto areas. Some affluent suburbs did no better than nearby urban areas, and even at the best suburban schools blacks on average lagged behind their white classmates. But a bigger secret is that even the poorest Asians tended to get better grades -- if not test scores -- than more affluent whites. Asians from poorer suburbs consistently outscored Euro-Americans in nearby more affluent suburbs. For all the talk about the superiority of schools in Japan or Korea, Asian-Americans are also nearly two years ahead in math, just as far ahead of their classmates as students in their ancestral lands are, even when they go to the same schools that fail other American minorities."
"In short, predominantly minority schools have low test scores because minorities have lower test scores regardless of the segregation factor, not the other way around. And American schools would match Asian schools if they were dominated by Asian students. Perhaps that chilling reality is the reason that every newspaper I have contacted has chosen to ignore these data."
Bottomline is:
"a bigger secret is that even the poorest Asians tended to get better grades -- if not test scores -- than more affluent whites." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021079) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:24 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Arthur Hu also said,
FOR THE POOREST ASIANS:
"Seattle is one of the few cities where Asians are so poor and white parents so highly educated that white students score better even in math. But Asians still have the highest grade-point average in the city. In the suburbs, Asian 8th-graders score 74 in 59th-percentile blue-collar Renton, hopping rungs over whites in 67th-percentile Bellevue. Asians in Bellevue score 82, equal to top-ranked Mercer Island's 83. Asians in Mercer Island score an astounding 90, not far below the average at the best Lakeside private school."
Do you get the point?
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021135) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:26 PM Author: orchid shitlib son of senegal Actually, he kind of contradicted himself there. His point is that race is determinative of scores (switching between grades and test scores, without a good reason, apparently), rather than education or integration, but assumes in that sentence that education is determinative of scores. Of course, they both can be, which doesn't necessarily contradict his point that integration isn't a big deal (race and income level are). (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021150) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Please read Arthur Hu's essay in its entirety below, or click on: http://www.nationalreview.com/15sept97/hu091597.html.
View this from the Asian American perspective.
WTF does Tim Wise know? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021166) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:30 PM Author: orchid shitlib son of senegal I did. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021169) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:02 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender More than you will ever know. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021379) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:07 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha WTF do you know abou Asian Americans? Show me, tell me.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021400) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:10 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender There are white guys in the East Asian Studies, etc. departments in many colleges/universities. Are you saying they can't speak on behalf of Asian issues as well? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021414) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:16 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Read the question, WTF does Tim Wise know about Asian Americans. I don't care if he is "white" or "black". Where is his body of research? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021431) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:21 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender There are white guys in the East Asian Studies, etc. departments in many colleges/universities. Are you saying they can't speak on behalf of Asian issues as well?
Because you stated that Tim Wise is not Asian, basically, Tim Wise, who is a professor at Fisk University, that must mean that every white guy who teaches and specializes in an East Asian or Asian Studies department cannot comment on Asian issues.
You know how dumb you sound? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021441) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:22 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha I never said what you said. I asked for a body of research from your Tom Wise. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021451) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:24 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender "WTF does Tim Wise know? And he is not even Asian American. Of course there are poor Asian Americans, DIRT POOR Asian Americans."
Uhhhh YEAH YOU DID. Now answer my question. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021462) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:28 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Now you are also a liar:
Here is my post:
Date: January 28th, 2005 9:07 PM Author: hero
WTF do you know abou Asian Americans? Show me, tell me.
Liar. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021472) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:28 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Date: January 28th, 2005 8:27 PM Author: hero
WTF does Tim Wise know? And he is not even Asian American. Of course there are poor Asian Americans, DIRT POOR Asian Americans.
HINT: scroll below this thread. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021474) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 3:14 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha I did. Here is the post below:
Date: January 28th, 2005 8:27 PM Author: hero
WTF does Tim Wise know? Of course there are poor Asian Americans, DIRT POOR Asian Americans.
You are a liar!
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027359) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 3:17 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender You changed your post. Admit it. I'm not stupid. Xoxo does allow you to edit your posts.
Because you're too cheap to admit you were wrong and even stated that Tim Wise is not Asian-American, therefore he couldn't obviously talk about Asians, I will refuse to debate with you any further. I have better battles to choose than to argue with dishonest, hypocritical people like you who refuses to admit their own mistakes.
The End. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027364) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 8:34 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> Because you're too cheap to admit you were wrong and even stated that Tim Wise is not Asian-American, therefore he couldn't obviously talk about Asians, I will refuse to debate with you any further. I have better battles to choose than to argue with dishonest, hypocritical people like you who refuses to admit their own mistakes....The End."
Say what? More ad hom attacks. Is that all you have left? You ran out of gas, but you also ran out of milege on your race card. You are the one who is mistaken!!
Admissions to the elite colleges should have nothing to do with race. It should be race blind for all the reasons I've stated and that's the truth. You can't handle the truth.
I don't care if your Tim Wise is black, white, yellow, or pink. I don't care if you are black, white, yellow, or pink. Your color, skin tone or hue should have nothing to do elite school admissions. I do not want to know your race, and the adcoms should not know either and they should not ask either.
Admissions should be race and ethnic group blind.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027503) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 9:02 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha The rich black multi- millionaire college educated families have children who cannot compete on an equal basis with the POOREST Asian Americans and Whites from parents with less than a high school diploma. Forget about the lower middle and lower class blacks, because, as a group, they are EVEN MORE ACADEMICALLY DEFICIENT AND UNDERPREPARED. Race based AA does absolutely nothing for these poorer blacks, comprising the vast majority of of blacks in America.
Just think about this!! That's a fact that the flaming pro-race based AA liberals can't admit to or even acknowledge. They support this AA policy in denial of this to make them "feelgood", even though it may even do irreparable harm to underprepared blacks, while not attacking the main problem of poor k-12 education. Therefore, rich blacks from upper class families who are immigrants from the Carribean and Africa are the blacks that benefit from this demented and unjust policy, not the descendants of the African American slaves for whom AA was intended initially. The vast majority of blacks, about 70%, at Harvard are from middle and upper class recent immigrant families, who were not the object of the racist Jim Crow Laws in America. These economically privileged blacks were admitted with race preferences and lower academic standards ( lower SAT scores and GPAs, academic awards, etc..) than the rest of the class.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027509) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:24 AM Author: motley indecent field bbw So? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2018004) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 7:15 PM Author: orchid shitlib son of senegal What a pompous, arrogant asshole (the author). I couldn't bear enough of his attitude to get to his main point. I'm probably sympathetic (I think the difference in the histories of different cultural groups in this country are very relevant to current standing), but this guy is the WORST guy to deliver the message. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020750) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:27 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha WTF does Tim Wise know? Of course there are poor Asian Americans, DIRT POOR Asian Americans. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021157) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:03 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender LMAO! Since when do you need to be OF THE RACE to speak the truth? 'Hero' this is the most idiotic response yet from you.
There are white guys in the East Asian Studies, etc. departments in many colleges/universities. Are you saying they can't speak on behalf of Asian issues as well? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021384) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:03 PM Author: Nudist lettuce chad "h" (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028163) |
Date: January 28th, 2005 9:02 AM Author: Black Provocative School I am not saying things are huny dory in with asians. But do not you agree that poor urban URM need help. Think even if we have no qualified AA, we must pick up the best qualified and provide them immense support and get away of this current policy which does not serve its purpose to uplift the moral in poor URMs.
Only Rich college can do so. Thus, if we can say bring 20 or 30 poor and less qualifies URMS and make them successful, at least we are trying the best rather than just satisfy the quota system and assume that somehow the problem in poor urban America will disappear magically. It is not leadership to ignore the poor URMs and pander to wealthy URMs. I find currnt policy pathetic. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017843) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:09 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Anybody, it's not like colleges are not accepting poor URMs into the school. At my school (Northwestern), a large segment of the black and hispanic population COMES from inner-city Chicago. They have the ability to recruit inner-city children in their own backyard, It's harder to do that out-of-state or at a national level. Not all of these kids are wealthy. On-campus groups do EVERYTHING possible to aid and guide them through college. So to say that selective universities across the country are not doing anything about it is a myth.
What I disagree if your logic that colleges should accept MORE poor URMs over URMs who have the means to not only afford the colleges in the first place, but who are more likely to have AP/IB/College credits that will make the college process on par with the entire student body. I came into Northwestern with enough credits to place me into sophomore status my freshman year, just like many white and Asian peers have done before entering the school.
What makes you justify that the university should accept more poor URMs than middle-class URMs or people like me who is trying to secure an education just like everyone else? Don't I have the right to pursue an education that my parents, who are just first-generation college students themselves (Jim Crow Virginia and Georgia), that they want what's best for me? My family is lower-middle class as my grandparents used to labor in the fields or work on the railroad with less than a 10th grade education. Affirmative action recognizes that even middle-class blacks face hardships especially when you look at it from an historical, economic and extended-family perspective.
Keep in mind that a lot of white students at these selective universities have GENERATIONS of college graduates and privilege in their families. What makes you think that middle-class black students share that same background? After all, these schools did not desegregate their classes until the 1970s. The black Middle class did not even expand until the 1970s and 1980s! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017849) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:04 AM Author: Black Provocative School You provide your own justification that you are qualified so you will get in based on merit. You do not need a single % help as you have middle class roots. But think about a kid whose parents makes $100,000 he score only 1400 in SAT and find and a male, suddenly as there is dearth of URMs the HYP wants him. Why? Why no take a kid who scored 1000 in SAT and provide this URM male tools to go ahead and provide support. This kid will be successful if he is supported from K-12 onwards. Yes it needs time. But this way you are giving a message to a poor URM Black male that univerity will give him a helping hand if he is willing to work.
Treat kids like you based on merit by ignoring race column jsut to fill the class. If you get in fine based on merit, otherwise you will go to a little notch below like any other asian or white kid. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2017945) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 11:09 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender I'm actually at Northwestern on NEED-BASED aid. Colleges like Harvard and Northwestern do not use merit aid as they receive already enough quality applicants to begin with. They weed certain students out base upon background, school profile, essays, work/activities, etc.
And sorry, anybody, I cannot comprehend your posts. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2018099) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:09 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> I'm actually at Northwestern on NEED-BASED aid. Colleges like Harvard and Northwestern do not use merit aid as they receive already enough quality applicants to begin with. They weed certain students out base upon background, school profile, essays, work/activities, etc. <<
In other words, you are an URM, with college educated parents, from a middle class to upper middle class economic strata (families with up to $180K a year in income are NEED-BASED), who was admitted to the private "elite" Northwestern, and who also fit the category of URMs who benefitted under race based AA with race preferences, possibly given a leg up or tip with lower standards of admissions.
Where does leave the lower class URM with parents with less than a high school diploma, the original intended beneficiararies of race based AA?
Also, you advocated for no vouchers and public education.
I don't know where you went to high school, public or private prep, but why aren't you in a public university, since that is what you advocated for??
WTF are you? A hypocrite? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023267) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:00 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha "The problem was not the schools, but the attitudes and habits of the students themselves. The underachievers didn't fear failure, didn't study as hard, skipped class more often, and blamed their failures on racism. The overachievers didn't tolerate failure, hung out with overachievers, spent the most time studying, and attributed their success to individual effort." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021002) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:00 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021003) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:12 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender The gap cannot be easily explained. Contrary to what might be expected, Meredith Phillips and her colleagues suggest in The Black-White Test Score Gap that parents' income differences by themselves have almost no effect on children's test scores. Rather, they urge us to look further back in a child's family tree.
Whether or not a parent follows the middle-class parenting practices that are most likely to increase a child's chances of doing well in school--having books at home, reading to the child, taking her on a trip to the museum, for example--depends on how the parent was raised. Even when black and white parents have the same test scores, educational attainment, income, wealth and number of children, black parents are more likely to have grown up in less-advantaged households. So part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced.
In 1994, Harvard psychology professor Richard Herrnstein and economist Charles Murray asserted in their book The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life that differences in cognitive ability between racial groups as measured by standardized tests are due in part to genetics. Jencks and Phillips, however, point out in The Black-White Test Score Gap that "despite endless speculation, no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites."
Recent studies have shown that later in life, when those students who make it to college and post-graduate studies are faced with standardized tests such as the SAT and the GRE, new factors come into play which might contribute to the gap. Stanford psychology professor Claude Steele and his colleagues have described what they call "stereotype threat." According to their research, a student who feels he is part of a group that has been negatively stereotyped is likely to perform less well in a situation in which he thinks that people might evaluate him through that stereotype than in a situation in which he feels no such pressure.
Steele has conducted experiments in which he brings in black students and white students to take a standardized test. The first time, he tells the students that they will be taking a test to measure their verbal and reasoning ability. The second time, he tells them the test is an unimportant research tool. Steele has found that the black students do less well when they are told that the test measures their abilities. He also believes that the effects of stereotype threat are strongest for students who are high-achievers and care very much about doing well. They care so much about doing well, Steele says, that they feel that if they don't they will be confirming the negative stereotypes associated with black students. (Read FRONTLINE's interview with Claude Steele and, Steele's article in The Atlantic.)
In another experiment, Steele brought in white and Asian men who were strong in math. He told them the math test they were about to take was one in which Asians do slightly better than whites. The white men performed less well when they were told this, than when they were not. Another experiment showed that stereotype threat also brought down the performance of strong female math students.
SOURCE: PBS
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021066) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:19 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'part of the explanation for the gap may lay in the widespread discrimination in housing, education and employment that African American children's grandparents faced.'
Koreans lived in grass huts and shit and did fine. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021103) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:24 PM Author: ebony house Ditto for the Vietnamese, Chinese, etc etc. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021141) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:07 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender What makes the Korean-Chinese experience the same as the African-American experience? Nothing at all.
Explain to me why Koreans in Japan do worse in education than the Japanese? If Koreans are "SO SMART" as all of you claim, why is it that Koreans in Japan are among the most low-performing groups in Japan? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021403) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:16 PM Author: ebony house Your last point has nothing to do with jack shit. We're discussing minorities in America.
What do their experiences have in general? Lack of housing, money, civil rights? Only add in major wars and the fallout for years afterwards. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021430) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:23 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Wow...you made parallels jane hoya!
Lack of housing, money and civil rights. Hmmmm the fact that Koreans who do worse on tests in Japan, yet they can do well in America, must mean that Koreans in general are not innately inferior or lack genetic ability to function in society. The fact that Koreans fare worse in Japan must mean that something is terribly wrong in Japanese society.
Now translate that to the history, social and economic environments blacks have to endure in America. As above, something is terribly wrong in American society. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021455) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:29 PM Author: ebony house Oh my god, you are so insanely stupid I don't know if I can continue this conversation.
Yes, I made parallels and you're damn fucking right they're valid. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT ONE ETHNIC GROUP LACKS GENETIC ABILITY TO FUNCTION IN SOCIETY. Oh, except you. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021483) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:30 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Uh, 'hero' says so. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021493) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:33 PM Author: ebony house Can blacks function in society? Yes, clearly. So fuck off. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021509) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:34 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender LMAO! Is that the best you can say? 'Fuck off?' Hmmm...it seems as though you've lost.
God, bless this child. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021515) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:35 PM Author: ebony house I've lost the ability to reason with you, yes. If you want to remain idiotic and deluded, be my guest. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021524) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:36 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender You are already at that stage. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021533) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:39 PM Author: ebony house At the stage in which I realize your idiocy, yes. That's what I've been saying. Congratulations- you finally figured it out! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021547) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:46 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Know, the stage that you entered idiocy before I ever did.
U.N. Urges Japan to Stop Discrimination against Korean School Children and Education http://210.145.168.243/pk/046th_issue/98061001.htm
GENEVA (Kyodo) A U.N. child rights panel urged Japan on Friday to eliminate discrimination against children of minorities, including Korean residents of Japan. Japan should "undertake all necessary proactive measures to combat societal discrimination and ensure access to basic services" for children of Korean residents of Japan and other minority groups, the U.N. Committee on Rights of the Child said in a report.
Koreans face wide discrimination in Japan, particularly in employment and marriages. At Japanese schools, there have been reports of bullying of Koreans.
The committee said children of the indigenous Ainu people and the so-called Buraku people, the descendants of former social outcasts, are among the minorities who it is concerned also face discrimination.
This is the committee's second report on children's rights in Japan following one in 1998.
Jacob Doek, the committee chairman, welcomed Japan's youth policy outline, adopted in 2003, which pledges that the government will help young people become independent individuals in society.
But Japan has a long way to go before the policy guidelines formulated to cope with issues facing young people, such as juvenile delinquency, are effective, he said.
Doek said eliminating social discrimination will be the toughest task for Japan, and he urged the government to continue to make efforts to change society's attitude toward minorities.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021588) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:49 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha You should go to Japan, and yell RACISM there.
Opps, Koreans are the same race as the Japanase. You will have to change your song. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021604) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:53 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Yup, and I will continue to yell racism in America as well. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021628) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:55 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Koreans are the same race as the Japanase. You will have to change your song. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021641) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:59 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Uh, not many Koreans will buy that argument. LOL
Don't ignore me. Tell me why Koreans score the worst in Japan. Why are avoiding the social conditions in Japan for Koreans? They face flat-out discrimination and score the worst on Japanese exams. Hmmmm..... (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021678) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:27 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Hey, Jews were discriminated against, but they managed to pull themselves up without the help of federal programs.
Now, Jews are 30% of Harvard while being 2.5% of the population. I don't have any problems with that, do you? Larry Summers, Pres. of Harvard, is a Jew. Do you have a problem with that? Where were the federal assistance programs and race based AA for them? Why don't you talk about DISCRIMINATION AGAINST JEWS. There are and were also poor Jews. Dirt poor Jews, too. Larry Summers is a Jew, and Pres. of Harvard, and that's why CW was working for him, until CW yelled RACISM, after he question the credibilty of his "research" for the last 10 years.
And of course you neglected to mention discrimination against Asian Americans, who also are poor, yet they outperform blacks where living in the same ghettos blacks live, attending the same schools, siiting next to blacks, and being taught in the same schools.
I suggest that you access the site of the NYC Report Cards on every school in the city, including the ones in the black and latinos ghettos, where many Asian Ams live. By, en large, they outperformed their black neighbors in test scores, GPAs, and graduation rate while studying in the same ghetto schools. These poorest of Asians outperformed blacks in the most affluent suburbs.
The results are given for each race and ethnic group in every school in NYC. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021867) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:51 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Please take an urban history course.
When the United States restricted immigration into the United States by 1920, immigrant groups (especially the future generations) who used to live in the ghettoes of American cities assimilated and moved out of the cities while African-Americans moved into those houses and tenemaents, which were often in poor condition. By 1920, African-Americans became the most segregated group in America. Not to mention that there were restrictive racial covenants, building codes, zoning ordinances that segregated blacks into one area (de facto segregation). And we cannot forget the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Crow de jure segregation, mob riots in Northern industrial cities, racist policies from the federal government that just kept consistently putting down blacks. In other words, the government constantly hinted to blacks socially, economically and physically "you are inferior."
Please name me one piece of legislation or cultural acts in United States history that systematically locked and immobilized Jews and other European immigrants outside American society and continues to do so today. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023336) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:58 AM Author: Self-centered Senate Interesting you'd mention that. Asians faced most of the same obstacles, including internment.
And yet, they're doing 'grrreat.' (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023347) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:01 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender And Asians were compensated for their internment. Since when did blacks get "compensated" for their labor in building this country?
I do recall that the United States restricted immigration of Asians (at least from other nations) from the turn of the century until 1965. which meant that the Asian population in the country was very small at best. The Asian-American experience does not even compare to the experience of African-Americans. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023352) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:03 AM Author: Self-centered Senate No, the ancestors of the interned were compensated in 1986, well after they were economically successful. It's nice to see how you compress all of time together to sidestep thorny issues of causality.
'Since when did blacks get "compensated" for their labor in building this country?'
It's called welfare and food stamps, dude. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023362) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:08 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender That's not compensation. That's providing welfare for everyone. Also, welfare at the federal level no longer exists.
Since when did blacks get "compensated" for their labor in building this country? Answer the question. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023373) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:10 AM Author: Self-centered Senate 'Since when did blacks get "compensated" for their labor in building this country?'
Since when are slaves still alive?
If I can find any, I'll compensate them myself. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023381) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:13 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Uh, most American blacks are the descendents of slaves. Remember your earlier post? That the descendants of the Japanese interns got compensated? I do believe you stated that.
So, once again: Since when did blacks get "compensated" for their labor in building this country (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023393) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:37 AM Author: Self-centered Senate 'Uh, most American blacks are the descendents of slaves'
The descendants of most Koreans were shit-poor. So what? People either have the smarts to drag themselves up (like model-minority asians) or they don't. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023485) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:09 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain You're missing the point. People work to save, to provide for their children. Slaves of course did not receive any of the benefits of their labor, and when emancipated, had nothing. Thus, free blacks began in 1865 empty-handed, centuries behind the whites in this country who had been working and saving to prepare their progeny for the future.
Even immigrants who came to the US poor had the received the benefits of their ancestors' labor.
Obviously, if blacks had not been deprive of compensation for two hundred years of labor - if blacks had been allowed to work and save like everyone else - their offspring (present day blacks) would be better off. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028199) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:16 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'Even immigrants who came to the US poor had the received the benefits of their ancestors' labor.'
Some came with absolutely nothing, not even English literacy, after all their relatives had been killed. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028219) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:22 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain Unless their ancestors had been in bondage for the past two centuries, they were still the offspring of people who were free, had been working and had control of their own destinies. Any work that their ancestors had done, they had been compensated for, as small as that compensation may have been. If free people do not have much to pass on to their children, it is the result of their own actions and personal situation, quite different from a slave who will never receive any benefits, regardless of how long or well he toils. Abraham Lincoln has a great speech about the importance of being able to work to support yourself, and how dehumanizing it is to steal this from someone...
Also, virtually all freed blacks were illiterate as well. Yes, most spoke English (poorly) but there had been laws making it a crime to teach slaves to read.
Also, few freed slaves still had contact with many of their relatives, since slave families were routinely broken up.
So, basically you have a situation in which you're emancipating people who have no property, can't read, have never worked for wages, and you're telling them to live amongst the people who owned them yesterday and are doing everything in their power to keep them in a position barely above that of slavery. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028239) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:27 PM Author: Self-centered Senate Your argument is not really convincing. If anything, it would only apply to the direct offspring of actual slaves. Otherwise, how was the Harlem Renaissance able to happen at all? It was by people picking themselves up, getting educated despite the obstacles, and making thier mark. They didn't need 'compensation,' they just needed pen and paper. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028254) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:32 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain No, it applies to everyone. The entireblack race started out as an advantage. Almost all of the blacks in this country descend from people who were held in bondage until 1865 and were then released, penniless and uneducated, in a hostile land. Even if the gap closes over time, I don't see why one would expect it to close completely. The direct descendants of slaves had a harder time establishing themselves, and so did their children, and their children, and so forth. I don't see how they can be expected to be on the level of people who were free and working to better themselves for centuries while they were enslaved. Randall Robinson does a really good job of explaining this in "The Debt".
I don't see the relevance of the Harlem Renaissance either. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028278) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:43 PM Author: Self-centered Senate ' I don't see how they can be expected to be on the level of people who were free and working to better themselves for centuries while they were enslaved. '
Your claim is basically that people born into poverty and shitty circumstances tend to stay that way. My claim is that people who want to do better, and work at it, tend to do better. If life hands you a shit sandwich, you can eat it or go look for a better one. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028338) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 9:07 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender No, his argument is that people born into a society that constantly tells them they are inferior in the name of white supremancy, eugenics (Whites at top, Africans at the bottom) and legal racial restrictions for over 300 years will have a much harder time succeeding than someone who just got off the boat and open their own business to live the American Dream. Yes, there were immigrants who were dirt poor that came to America and somehow lived the American Dream. However, how many do you know were physically segregated by their skin color and wack out ideas that they're dangerous to white women? Asians never really became persecuted at such a large and national scale because the United States banned immigration of them between 1900 - 1965. That's a pretty long time, if you ask me.
Oh yeah, we can't forget about the mass lynchings throughout the United States that put blacks "in their place" Come to think of it, white mobs didn't lynch many immigrants. However, when they saw a black person, they made a bonfire and celebrated like they hit gold with the black body hung from the tree. (Yes, they took pictures too of their 'celebration.')
Lynchings: By State and Race, 1882-1968 *
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State White Black Total
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Alabama 48 299 347 Arizona 31 0 31 Arkansas 58 226 284 California 41 2 43 Colorado 65 3 68 Delaware 0 1 1 Florida 25 257 282 Georgia 39 492 531 Idaho 20 0 20 Illinois 15 19 34 Indiana 33 14 47 Iowa 17 2 19 Kansas 35 19 54 Kentucky 63 142 205 Louisiana 56 335 391 Maine 1 0 1 Maryland 2 27 29 Michigan 7 1 8 Minnesota 5 4 9 Mississippi 42 539 581 Missouri 53 69 122 Montana 82 2 84 Nebraska 52 5 57 Nevada 6 0 6 New Jersey 1 1 2 New Mexico 33 3 36 New York 1 1 2 North Carolina 15 86 101 North Dakota 13 3 16 Ohio 10 16 26 Oklahoma 82 40 122 Oregon 20 1 21 Pennsylvania 2 6 8 South Carolina 4 156 160 South Dakota 27 0 27 Tennessee 47 204 251 Texas 141 352 493 Utah 6 2 8 Vermont 1 0 1 Virginia 17 83 100 Washington 25 1 26 West Virginia 20 28 48 Wisconsin 6 0 6 Wyoming 30 5 35
Total 1,297 3,446 4,743
So, where are the Asians among the lynched? Nearly 3500 blacks were lynched where at that time blacks were a much smaller population? That sounds like a massacre, and this was happening even in 1968!
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2034017) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 3:19 PM Author: Self-centered Senate Your whole theory is blown away by the success of African and West Indian immigrants in the US.
HTH. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2035580) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 8:50 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender West Indian and African immigrants were not slaves in America. They did not endure Jim Crow slavery and segregation in the South (West Indians and Africans concentrated in northern cities for a reason)nor were they subjected to a population that was predominately white with strict racial codes in their native lands. Plus the immigration of West Indians and Africans did not take full force until the 1960s, when civil rights for African-Amerians and the opening of immigrations to Africa and Asia to the United States expanded.
Most West Indians settled in New York or Canada. West Indians meccas were very uncommon in the South, and the major reasons were to escape (avoid rather) racial persecution in the South. Most West Indians and Africans who settle in America come from middle-class families, which is common knowledge. Of those West Indians prior the 1960s, like DuBois, who settled in America, they endured the same racial oppression that forced many of them to settle in the North, while not racism-free, they were allowed to practice their work without the fear of lynching. Second/Third-generation West Indians from low-income families also are more likely to associate themselves with African-Americans, facing the same injustices and redlining that has plague African-Americans for decades. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2037712) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 9:06 PM Author: Self-centered Senate You silly fuck, West Indians WERE BROUGHT OVER AS SLAVES!
They share the same slaving history!
' Second/Third-generation West Indians from low-income families also are more likely to associate themselves with African-Americans, facing the same injustices and redlining that has plague African-Americans for decades.'
I am not convinced that this is the case, by and large, they've done a lot better than 'native born' black people.
Your contortions are just starting to get silly. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2037854) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 9:11 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Uh, no they don't.
If you go to the Caribbean, you will notice that the Caribbean nations are predominately BLACK. America is predominately WHITE. Therefore, West Indians and African-Americans have a different historical and cultural history. You don't see African-Americans and West Indians embracing each other, do you? African-American culture and West Indian/African cultures are TOTALLY DIFFERENT with history and customs. It's not like African and West Indians lived in predominately white socities where Mr. Charlie/The Man shoved down their throats "you can't read. you can't write. you can't buy a house in our white neighborhood. we're gonna give you higher interest bank loans to bankrupt your ass." They did not have that kind of social force on their lives. Hell, I don't even think systematic racialized lynchings even occurred in their countries.
But as I stated earlier, West Indians after several generations in the United States experience the same hurdles that African-Americans have to face:
Waters’ research shows that West Indian immigrants do have an economic advantage over African-Americans, but this is largely because, as immigrants coming from poor countries, they are more willing to take low-end jobs and to work harder at them.
But by studying two generations, Waters shows that the differences soon disappear, particularly among working-class immigrants living in all-black neighborhoods. While first-generation West Indian immigrants often espouse a philosophy of hard work and self-reliance, their children tend to feel stymied by racism and discrimination.
American racism also hits West Indians particularly hard because, Waters asserts, as members of societies where people of African ancestry are in the majority, they do not encounter the sort of direct, often brutal interpersonal racism that is still prevalent in this society.
"I argue that it’s not, ‘If West Indians can do it, what’s wrong with African-Americans?’ but that over time, West Indians who come with absolutely the best kind of ideology and the best hopes, in one generation find those hopes dashed."
West Indian families who avoided downward mobility in the second generation tended to be tho se who emphasized their identity as members of a distinct culture, like the young woman who wanted to acquire a West Indian accent. Waters believes that this strategy of emphasizing one’s foreignness, of resisting the melting pot, is part of a widespread trend, and that it suggests a new model of immigration in America.
"Immigrants now are overwhelmingly nonwhite, so when they become American, they don’t just become Americans, they become blacks or they become Hispanics, or they become Asians, and in a society that has class stratifications along racial lines, there is some idea that the status associated with being a foreigner might be better than the status associated with these groups."
This may be the most disturbing implication of Waters’ research, that becoming an American may be bad for you.
Recent research shows, says Waters, that as immigrants spend more time in the United States, the quality of their lives goes down, not up. The divorce rate climbs, families split up, the percentage of female-headed households increases. There is even evidence that the health of immigrants decreases the longer they remain in this country.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/02.24/i_waters.html (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2037907) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 9:33 PM Author: Self-centered Senate By that account, Haiti wouldn't be quite so bad-off, since, hey, it's majority black! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2038107) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 10:39 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender The most obvious central problems in Haiti are poverty and exploitation of Haitians mainly by Haitians due to political instability, selfish mentality of the small "elite", and miserable educational situation. There is no simple solution and certainly no remedy from "outside", alone. But it would help, if all foreign aid - private and public - would be more transparent and better harmonized. This would be a precondition for peaceful and gentle, more effective helping intervention and would limit corruption and misuse of aid-money in Haiti.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2038857) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 9:34 AM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain Uh, no. That would disprove your "genetically inferior" argument if anything.
Africa and the West Indies are quite different from the US. People growing up in these areas aren't the minority groups that they would be in the US. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040510) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 10:26 AM Author: Self-centered Senate The 'genetically inferior' part was a joke, dear. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047417) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 10:21 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha You don't WTF you are saying, by asking "So, where are the Asians among the lynched?"
Most definitely Asians were lynched in America. Chinese Americans were hung in many California towns because of racial bigotry. Rmember the "Yellow Peril" era of American history? They were hung on Pell St., the present site of NYC's Chinatown. Check out NYC's Chinatown Museum on Mulberry St., the building of the old Public School #23. Read the old newspaper accounts there. Many Chinese Americans, who wre indentured servants, had less rights than the freed slaves, whom they replaced in the American labor force. They were treated less than the freed slaves of the late 1800s to the early 1900s. Jim Crow also applied to the mongoloid race, the Asians.
You simply do not know WTF you are talking about.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040556) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:06 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain I don't think you can equate Japanese internment, which lasted for less than a decade, with discrimination against blacks which had been going on for centuries. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028181) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:42 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha You do not know WTF you are talking about, and you obviously have not been to NYC's or SF's Chinatown, urban ghettos. NYC's Chinese ghetto shares territory with the Latino ghetto and former Jewish ghetto of the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and the enclave of Little Italy, ghetto full of walk-up tenements, the worst housing in NYC. Jews and Italians have essentially left, except for their elderly. The Chinese offsprings have left, but they are replaced by poor immigrants, making NYC's Chinatown the largest Chinese enclave on the East, its population constantly being replaced by the poorest and always in a state of flux. The same is true of of SF's Chinatown, which is the largest in the country.
The local high school encompasses all these ethnic populations, previously, but now there are mainly, the Chinese, Latinos and a few blacks, in Seward Park HS. Look at the NYC School Report Card on this school, and you can see the test scores, and graduation rates, according to race and ethnic group, and you could see that the poorest of Chinese Americans OUTPERFORMED every ethnic group. This is also true for the Asian Americans living in the other black and Latino ghettos of NYC.
You don't know WTF you are talking about.
Bullshit!! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023498) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:04 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain Honestly, the discrimination faced by Jews and Asians in the US was not the same as that faced by blacks. *Especially* that faced by Jews. At the end of the day, Jews were white people, and even the most die-hard nativists accepted the superiority of all European people (Italian, Jewish, Irish, German, etc. immigrants included) over blacks.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028171) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:56 PM Author: ebony house Yeah, actually no I didn't. As you already pointed out in a post below, I am quite smart.
Thanks for playing. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021647) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:59 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender You've lost. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021683) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:05 PM Author: ebony house No, you lost. As I've proved over and over. But keep trying- it's kinda cute. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021731) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:03 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Then why are you trying to prove a point? You haven't proven anything. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023360) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:42 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha You are the "child".
Don't ever call me a "child" again. And don't ever call me "Honey", as you did before.
The real question is, Who TF you think you are? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021569) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:38 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha I never said so. It was a posed question, as a "hypothesis". Jencks and Phillips asked the same question, and you did go "jack shit", yelling racism again.
Why don't you read the book, instead of trolling, pasting ad infinitum, without knowing what you are saying?
You don't know WTF you are talking about, regardless of your color, white, black, yellow, or race, Asian, Afro-Am, Latino or PINK.
From Jencks and Phillips:
"First, someone claims that the black-white gap is largely innate. Then the skeptics challenge this claim. The debate starts off largely unencumbered by evidence, but it eventually precipitates a number of useful empirical studies. The issue is not fully resolved, but the number of plausible explanations is smaller at the end of the debate than the beginning. This happened in the 1920s. It happened in the 1970s, after Arthur Jensen published, "How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement?" in the Harvard Educational Review in 1969. Its seems to be happenning again now, at least partly as result of THE BELL CURVE. This book tries to help the reader understand where the debate comes from and where it is likely to go next." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021542) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:30 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha From Jencks and Phillips:
"First, someone claims that the black-white gap is largely innate. Then the skeptics challenge this claim. The debate starts off largely unencumbered by evidence, but it eventually precipitates a number of useful empirical studies. The issue is not fully resolved, but the number of plausible explanations is smaller at the end of the debate than the beginning. This happened in the 1920s. It happened in the 1970s, after Arthur Jensen published, "How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement?" in the Harvard Educational Review in 1969. Its seems to be happenning again now, at least partly as result of THE BELL CURVE. This book tries the reader understand where the debate comes from and where it is likely to go next." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021492) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:01 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain I don't think the experience of Asians in America is very comparable to that of blacks in America. Yes, both faced discrimination, but most blacks are the descendants of slaves from the south. After the Civil War, southern white society was prety much shaped around the attempt to force emancipated blacks to the bottom of society and keep them there. Grandfather clauses, vagrancy laws, laws against blacks owning certain types of property or holding public office and terrorist groups such as the KKK did the trick nicely. Even in the north blacks were often excluded from everything but the most undesirable labor and were considered by all (even recent Immigrant groups such as the Irish and Germans) to be at the bottom of the barrel. For instance, many of these white immigrants refused to work alongside blacks at various jobs, which necessitated firing the black laborers to keep the white ones.
Of course there was racism against Asian American immigrants, but there was less hostility, mainly because they were not living among people who had recently held them as slaves. It seems intuitive that white former slaveholders would do everything in their power to opress the people they had held as slaves only a few years ago.
Racism against Asians seemed to be of a xenophobic nature, i.e. whites mainly wanting to avoid them. The same attempts weren't made to destroy Asian communities, and to prevent them from ever owning property or business. Many recent immigrants in the west were able to start small businesses and prosper - those blacks who attempted to do so in the south were often threatened, killed, chased out of town, etc. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028150) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 9:02 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: You don't know WTF you are saying. >> Racism against Asians seemed to be of a xenophobic nature, i.e. whites mainly wanting to avoid them. The same attempts weren't made to destroy Asian communities, and to prevent them from ever owning property or business. Many recent immigrants in the west were able to start small businesses and prosper - those blacks who attempted to do so in the south were often threatened, killed, chased out of town, etc. <<
Total bullshit. I cannot even believe how you can make a statement like this. You are either ignorant or plain stupid or both.
Racism against the Chinese was total!! It was institutionalize and legalized by anti-Chinese racist laws and with physical violence perpetrated against many Chinese by the racists in America, who viewed them as inferior and less than humam.
There were MANY ATTEMPTS made to destroy Chinese communities in America, with anti-Chinese racist laws, as well as physical violence againt the early Chinese indentured servants, living in conditions much worse than the freed blacks slaves, whom they had replaced in the labor force, in agriculture in California by inventing new methods and new crops (Bing cherries), the fishing industries. The Chinese were the first to eat shrimp in America, popularized the consumption of shrimp and farmed it with their ingenious fishing methods. They built America's Transcontinental Railroad, as well as Canada's railroad. They were more efficient than the Irish, whom they replaced and were rewarded with racist acts against them. The early Chinese, as a small group, contributed more than share in the building of America. The early Chinese were killed with impunity by whites because they could not testify in a court of law, and lacked the Writ of Habeas Corpus. They were denied the right to own land and their housing, and to have an education, speaking "pidkgin" English at best. They were denied the right to own money in a bank. They were denied the right to vote and they were denied the right of travel outside the USA and basically held captive in American and were denied the right to inter-marry with whites, creating a society male bachelors, called Sojourners, unable to retutn to China.
The term, "not a Chinaman's chance" came from the Irish foremen, who assigned the most dangerous tasks to the Chinese workers. They were the ones who planted and set the charges of dynamite in the mountainsides to clear the way for the tracks and many died in doing this, and hence this racist phrase was coined.
They were denied the right of citizenship, EVEN BY BIRTHRIGHT. Now in America, individuals who are born here have a right of American citizenship, because an American born Chinese brought his case to US Supreme Court winning this right of citizenship for anyone born in America. THey were also subjected to many of the Jim Crow Laws that the blacks were subjected to.
There is a history blatant and concerted racism against Asian Americans in America history, with even the total destruction of Chinese American towns by burning and lynchings, as well as lynchings in NYC on the site of NYC's Chinatown. All this were made possible by the white racist laws which culminated in the "Yellow Peril" anti-Asian era of history. In the legilature, the Chinese were considered less than hunman, along side of the blacks who actually had more rights during this period. You will find the decendants of these early Chinese in SF, California and throughout America and they have attained the Dream in only several generations, by pulling themslves up with education at the highest levels, despite early racist laws against them.
Your statements are just fucking ignorant, and you make this blanket without knowing anything about Asian American history. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047206) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:06 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha I read the whole book, "The Black-White Test Score Gap", by Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips, The Brookings Institute, 1999. I have the book in front of me.
Claude Steele's research, the stereotype threat, is one possible explanation of the gap. The issue of "innate differences" between the races has not been resolved by the authors and the studies published. There are many other explanations, but more importantly the authors asked what can be done to close this test score Gap, because if it is not closed, blacks will never catch up to whites/asians, no matter what the causes are. You must detrmine the causes, and acknowledge the gap, in order to find solutions in closing it. The solution is not by yelling racism, because the causes are varied and many. They actually suggest a change in the CULTURE of blacks, but to ask blacks to change their culture, is to bring forth charges of racism again from the flaming guilt-ridden white liberals and the black victimologists, who make a living by being perpetual victims, playing the race card.
From the first pages, "First, the score gap between blacks and whites turns out to play a larger much role in explaining racial disparities in educational attainment and income than many had realized. Second, many common explanations for the test score gap, including racial disparities in family income, school resources, and innate ability, did not seem to be as important as their proponents claimed. But like everything involving race in America, these conclusions were controversial, even among experts"
This book discussed a wide range of possible explanations for the gap. Jencks and Phillips, supported by the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, had worked on the book at Northwestern's Center for Urban Affairs and Policy Research (now the Institute).
The authors go on by saying,
"First, someone claims that the black-white gap is largely innate. Then the skeptics challenge this claim. The debate starts off largely unencumbered by evidence, but it eventually precipitates a number of useful empirical studies. The issue is not fully resolved, but the number of plausible explanations is smaller at the end of the debate than the beginning. This happened in the 1920s. It happened in the 1970s, after Arthur Jensen published, "How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement?" in the Harvard Educational Review in 1969. Its seems to be happenning again now, at least partly as result of THE BELL CURVE. This book tries to help the reader understand where the debate comes from and where it is likely to go next." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021397) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:35 AM Author: Nudist lettuce chad Subject: Ahhh....yes When I wake up, the first thing I want is a bagel with cream cheese, a coffee-milk and three sugars, and a long discussion about race. Thanks. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2018028) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: vengeful low-t halford A+ dyke (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020720) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:02 PM Author: Nudist lettuce chad shush with that lesbo business. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028160) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:37 AM Author: rough-skinned juggernaut this was difficult to read. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2018032) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 11:20 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Anybody is very difficult to read. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2018143) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 6:40 PM Author: Comical candlestick maker fat ankles That was painfully retarded. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020600) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 6:52 PM Author: khaki effete roommate kitchen I agree -
The "Asian culture" argument is one of the biggest myths out there, almost as bad as the "Jewish culture" one (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020657) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 7:19 PM Author: orchid shitlib son of senegal Do you actually think that there isn't a higher emphasis on certain types of "success" (i.e. educational success) in the majority of East Asian families in the US when compared with other ethnic groups? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020765) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:13 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Explain to me why Koreans in Japan do worse in education than the Japanese? If Koreans are "SO SMART" as all of you claim, why is it that Koreans in Japan are among the most low-performing groups in Japan?
I do acknowledge that the status of Koreans in Japan is on par with the status of blacks/Latinos in America. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021422) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:17 PM Author: ebony house So you're saying blacks and Latinos are the idiots of the country, just like the Koreans in Japan? Nice going. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021433) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:26 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender But if Koreans are "idiots" in Japan, that must mean that Koreans should be idiots in America, but that's not the case. Something psychologically or socially is causing low test scores for Koreans in Japan. Hmmmm...and come to think of it, the Japanese has always discriminated against Koreans.
Keep thinking, jane hoya. I know you're not dumb. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021465) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:30 PM Author: ebony house I know I'm not dumb either, but you sure as hell are. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021490) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:39 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'But if Koreans are "idiots" in Japan...'
False premise. The problems of American inner-city minorities are a lot more profound than Korean in Japan. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021548) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:46 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender GENEVA (Kyodo) A U.N. child rights panel urged Japan on Friday to eliminate discrimination against children of minorities, including Korean residents of Japan. Japan should "undertake all necessary proactive measures to combat societal discrimination and ensure access to basic services" for children of Korean residents of Japan and other minority groups, the U.N. Committee on Rights of the Child said in a report.
Koreans face wide discrimination in Japan, particularly in employment and marriages. At Japanese schools, there have been reports of bullying of Koreans.
The committee said children of the indigenous Ainu people and the so-called Buraku people, the descendants of former social outcasts, are among the minorities who it is concerned also face discrimination.
This is the committee's second report on children's rights in Japan following one in 1998.
Jacob Doek, the committee chairman, welcomed Japan's youth policy outline, adopted in 2003, which pledges that the government will help young people become independent individuals in society.
But Japan has a long way to go before the policy guidelines formulated to cope with issues facing young people, such as juvenile delinquency, are effective, he said.
Doek said eliminating social discrimination will be the toughest task for Japan, and he urged the government to continue to make efforts to change society's attitude toward minorities.
(for the link, scroll below) (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021591) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:47 PM Author: Self-centered Senate Thanks for proving my point. If the 'Korean plight' was as bad as the minority plight in the US, that article would have been about crackwars between rival Korean gangs. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021596) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:49 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender When the UN gets involved, it's a very serious matter on human rights and dignity.
Just think, not too long ago, the United States discriminated against blacks legally. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021603) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:52 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'When the UN gets involved, it's a very serious matter on human rights and dignity.'
No, it's not.
Let me put the point very simply:
East Asians ARE a model minority. No amount of wriggling can change that fact. Try to find the Japanese correlate of Gary, Indiana. You can't. Not even the Koreans live in such conditions. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021624) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:54 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Then explain to me why Koreans are doing worse in Japan, especially when it comes to education.
Since Koreans have lower test scores than their Japanese peers, does that mean they are stupid or inferior? Even when the present conditions of discrimination for Koreans in Japan are clearly inhumane just like blacks in America? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021637) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:57 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'Since Koreans have lower test scores than their Japanese peers, does that mean they are stupid or inferior?'
Only in comparasin to the Japanese, who are a super-model-minority. It's like how perfectly intelligent white kids will rank low in their class if their class is mostly Asian. Japanese are the vanguard of the Asian model-minority, leading the Koreans, as is evidenced by Koreans doing worse than Japs in Japan.
See? It's not like Koreans in Japan are doing bad, they're just doing worse than the Japs, which is nothing to be ashamed of. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021660) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:03 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Sighs, and I guess Cambodians and Philipinos are the laughingstock of the Asian race, eh?
I really don't buy your argument. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021717) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:06 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'Cambodians and Philipinos'
Nice try. Those people are hobbled by the racial handicap inherent in their Melanesian/Dravidian heritage. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021737) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 1:00 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Okay, you people are nuts. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2022729) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:57 AM Author: Self-centered Senate It's true. Look at performance as a function of racial handicap. Countries like Korea and Japan do best, countries like Indonesia and Cambodia do the worst. Bangladesh does even worse, and Africa does worse yet. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023346) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:02 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Hmmm, and you care to explain why? The answer is not solely genetics. You will probably think that social, economnic and physical forces play a LARGER role? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023357) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:04 AM Author: Self-centered Senate Nope. The answer is indisputably genetics. Occam's razor and all that. Any other explanation requires wild contortions of logic. I mean, look at the Americas. Which country does the very worst and has done the worst for 200 years? Haiti. As though we couldn't have predicted that. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023363) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:09 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Yet you continue to ignore the historical and economic problems of the country. Nice try. Haiti was ALSO the first country to be liberated in the Americas by blacks/mulattoes themselves. Again, nice try but no luck. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023379) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:11 AM Author: Self-centered Senate ' you continue to ignore the historical and economic problems of the country.'
Countries tend to have 'problems' in the first place because the people in those countries are less-intelligent.
Duh.
HTH. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023386) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:18 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Japan is going through a huge recession right now. Since they are the 'super-model-minority' they should know how to get their act together, right? Doesn't seem so.
If the Chinese are so superior, how come they cannot control their population growth? Why were there Chinese students boycotting the Chinese government in the late 1980s/early 1990s?
If Asians are so successful, why are they getting plastic surgery at a higher rate than any other racial group?
As for the tsunami disaster, the Indonesians (whom you claim are less intelligent) must be dumb because they live near the water and died as a result to something natural that was beyond their abilities.
I guess Asian-Americans don't need Asian-American Departments since Asians don't care about humanities and social sciences but rather focus on math and science.
You know how dumb you sound?
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023413) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:40 AM Author: Self-centered Senate 'Japan is going through a huge recession right now. '
Not really. Growth has slowed, but visit Japan. They're doing quite well in real terms.
'If the Chinese are so superior...'
They are bad at governance. They need white men to draft a government for them. They are good at being obedient and building technology.
'If Asians are so successful, why are they getting plastic surgery at a higher rate than any other racial group?'
Probably because they are successful and have money to burn. That should be fucking obvious.
Indonesians are dumb because they are shit-poor and pray to Allah.
'I guess Asian-Americans don't need Asian-American Departments '
Damn right. Study engineering or something you're good at. Have you ever seen an asian try to write a fiction novel? It's painful! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023492) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:13 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain Well, if the people of Haiti are the most inferior in the western hemisphere, it's amazing that they were the first - as slaves - to fight, and defeat Napoleon Bonaparte's troops, becoming the first free black nation in the Western Hemisphere. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028210) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:18 PM Author: Self-centered Senate That wasn't so tough, all they did was go Mogadishu on the French during Napolean's other wars. Suicidal people can force all kinds of change. It's what they do with it afterwards that makes their legacy. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028227) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 2:20 PM Author: Comical candlestick maker fat ankles Yeah, Jews just HAPPEN to be overrepresented in the media, law, medicine, and academia. It's all a coincedence. There's no cultural factor. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023945) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 7:52 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha http://www.nationalreview.com/15sept97/hu091597.html
AMERICA'S SCHOOLS
EDUCATION AND RACE
The performance of minority students in affluent areas refutes the prevailing educational shibboleths.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ARTHUR HU -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. Hu is a writer living in Kirkland, Washington..
DESEGREGATION is at a crossroads. As many analysts are declaring the integration experiment a failure, Harvard's desegregation guru, Gary Orfield, keeps telling us that minority education could be fixed if only we desegregated more. Educators and the media routinely slam city schools for poor minority performance while holding up affluent suburban districts as models because of their better test scores. Yet, if Orfield is right that segregated districts don't produce equal outcomes, no one has answered the more important question, which is whether ``integrated'' districts produce equal outcomes. Oddly, while the courts have used inequality as the justification for busing, Orfield himself notes in his 1991 book The Closing Door that there isn't much direct evidence that busing creates more equality. Almost as a footnote, he concedes that you would have to examine data broken down by race within mixed districts to prove that busing actually resulted in better performance for minorities.
After some cursory research -- a few phone calls to local school districts, a ride on the Internet -- I tracked down reports that do chart test scores and grades against race, not only in the worst but also in the best districts. The reason that people like Gary Orfield don't have the numbers is that it's safer to uphold the myth that minorities will perform as well as their white peers in good suburban schools than to expose the reality that the racial gap exists even in the best suburbs.
Test scores and grades for blacks in integrated urban neighborhoods aren't any better than those in predominantly minority ghetto areas. Some affluent suburbs did no better than nearby urban areas, and even at the best suburban schools blacks on average lagged behind their white classmates. But a bigger secret is that even the poorest Asians tended to get better grades -- if not test scores -- than more affluent whites. Asians from poorer suburbs consistently outscored Euro-Americans in nearby more affluent suburbs. For all the talk about the superiority of schools in Japan or Korea, Asian-Americans are also nearly two years ahead in math, just as far ahead of their classmates as students in their ancestral lands are, even when they go to the same schools that fail other American minorities.
In short, predominantly minority schools have low test scores because minorities have lower test scores regardless of the segregation factor, not the other way around. And American schools would match Asian schools if they were dominated by Asian students. Perhaps that chilling reality is the reason that every newspaper I have contacted has chosen to ignore these data.
California's 1994 CLAS (California Learning Assessment System) test introduced massive multiculturalism and had several questions for which more than one answer was counted as correct. Yet nobody noticed that elementary-school blacks and Hispanics did just as poorly in predominantly minority areas of Oakland, East Palo Alto, and Alum Rock as in legally integrated San Francisco. At Grade 10, only 10 to 15 per cent of black students got 3 or better in math whether they went to integrated San Francisco, the segregated communities of Contra Costa County, Oakland, or Silicon Valley's Santa Clara County. Asians continue to stampede into Cupertino, home of the founders of Apple Computers, because of its excellent schools. But US News (April 21, 1997) highlighted the poor performance of blacks there, and they lagged the state average on the CLAS.
Meanwhile, the Asians of the Chinatown ghettos in San Francisco scored as well as children of affluent engineers in Santa Clara County. Asians in Santa Clara County scored as well as whites in posh San Ramon Valley or Cupertino. Asians in Cupertino scored as well as whites in Palo Alto, the best district in the Bay Area. Blacks in San Ramon Valley scored no better than state average for all races, while Asians there outscored every other race and community.
The Seattle Times annually slams Seattle's math scores (just the 50th-percentile for Washington as a whole) compared to suburban Bellevue's 67th-percentile performance, and highlights the race gap as an urban problem. But broken down by race, whites score at about 67 in either city, but blacks score worse in Bellevue, at 34 compared to 40 for Seattle. Seattle has an ``African-American Academy,'' but its test scores are virtually indistinguishable from the city average. Suburban inequality is much the same at nearby Issaquah (41) and Redmond (35), even though there are no minority ghettos in the suburbs, and there has never been any news coverage of racial differences in performance there.
Seattle is one of the few cities where Asians are so poor and white parents so highly educated that white students score better even in math. But Asians still have the highest grade-point average in the city. In the suburbs, Asian 8th-graders score 74 in 59th-percentile blue-collar Renton, hopping rungs over whites in 67th-percentile Bellevue. Asians in Bellevue score 82, equal to top-ranked Mercer Island's 83. Asians in Mercer Island score an astounding 90, not far below the average at the best Lakeside private school.
Meanwhile, nobody ever asks in print why fourth-graders in nearly all-white (but poor) Edmonds or Mukilteo scored only 34 to 44, as badly as Seattle's blacks. Nobody ever demanded that they be bused into richer school districts to remedy this inequity.
The Boston Globe also offered no explanation why black students who entered the Metco voluntary busing program from Boston with 50th-percentile scores didn't score as well as their new suburban classmates in 88th-percentile Newton. Yet the whites from working-class Revere or Brockton have an SAT average of 411 -- near the national black average. No Italian-American Revere youth dripping with gold chains and roaring upon his '82 firebird could expect that sending him to Newton for four years would turn him into Ivy League material. Yet the Harvard gurus remain mystified.
Fairfax County near Washington, D.C., has a 569 (1996) SAT math average, good enough for the University of California at Riverside. But Fairfax's black average of 465 isn't any better than ``Can't we just get along'' Los Angeles. The black suburb of Prince George's County is among the top 30 per cent of U.S. counties in average household income. The school district proudly claims that its black students perform as well as their ``counterparts'' throughout the state -- but that's only their black counterparts. Measured by Maryland's MSPAP (Maryland School Performance Assessment Program) test, it ranks as 22 of 24 districts in the state.
It is widely accepted that test scores increase with family income. However, SAT breakdowns for 1995 show that even the most affluent blacks, from families with incomes over $70,000, have average scores of 426, lagging behind whites or Asians from families with incomes under $10,000. But Asians from families with incomes under $10,000 have average scores of 482, ranking them with whites from families making $40,000. And it is not just test scores. Oakland's poor school system highlighted its low 1.8 black GPA to justify Ebonics. But GPAs aren't any better in integrated Seattle or San Francisco.
Data books and health surveys all show that even in cities like Seattle, Boston, and San Francisco where the per-capita incomes of Asians are no higher than that of blacks, it is Asians, not whites, who have the best outcomes. The omission of Asians from the local news stories is probably deliberate because their statistics don't support the thesis that racism and poverty are the reasons for poor outcomes. As much as the activists continue to deplore the model-minority ``myth,'' except in the most distressed Asian refugee communities, Asians generally have the best grades and test scores; the lowest rates of special and remedial education, dropouts, and expulsion; the highest rates of attendance; and the lowest rates of arrest, teen pregnancy, AIDS, and substance abuse.
If civil rights can be measured by affirmative action, multiculturalism, and desegregation, then they have massively succeeded in almost every urban school district in the country. Compared with Asians, blacks in California are at or near parity among teacher hires, college faculty, staff, and principals, and they are twice as well represented among superintendents. American history books now look like African-American history books, even casting revolutionary sailors as blacks, while Asians are all but completely absent from indexes. Yet these nifty educational strategies have utterly failed to raise black grades and test scores.
Last year, with little fanfare, Lawrence Steinberg, B. Bradford Brown, and Sanford Dornbusch released a new book, Beyond the Classroom that offered a very different explanation from the standard ``racism and poverty'' for why different groups perform differently in school. ``Of all the demographic factors we studied in relation to school performance, ethnicity is the most important . . . In terms of school achievement, it is more advantageous to be Asian than to be wealthy, to have non-divorced parents, or to have a mother who is able to stay at home full time.'' They found that no matter which school they looked at, Asians got the best grades and test scores, and blacks and Hispanics the worst. The problem was not the schools, but the attitudes and habits of the students themselves. The underachievers didn't fear failure, didn't study as hard, skipped class more often, and blamed their failures on racism. The overachievers didn't tolerate failure, hung out with overachievers, spent the most time studying, and attributed their success to individual effort.
IRONICALLY, it is an even darker secret that blacks and Hispanics can succeed solely on the basis of merit. Brian D. Ray, President of the National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI) did a study that shows that minority home-schoolers are in the 80th- to 85th-percentile of home-schooling students.
There are formal schools where blacks and Hispanics do well, too. The December 2, 1995, Economist highlights the Barclay Elementary School in Baltimore. It adopted a severe prep-school curriculum and zero-tolerance approach toward spelling mistakes to get suburban-level 60th-percentile scores in a city where failure is the norm. Seattle's Zion private school boasts test scores above average with a largely black student body. The story of how Jaime Escalante fashioned a class of Advanced Placement calculus whiz kids out of a barrio school was made into a movie.
Whitney Young Magnet High in Chicago rivals many suburban schools. With a student body that is mostly black or Hispanic, it ranks above the 99th percentile among state high schools in 8th- and 10th-grade math and writing, and has ACT (American College Testing) averages that make it the equal of Asian-dominated Lowell in San Francisco. The best SAT scores in Georgia aren't in a rich white suburb, but at Davidson Fine Arts Magnet in Richmond with a 42 per cent black student body, near an Army Signal Corps base.
At the college level, Martin Vaern Bosangue of Mt. San Antonio Community College near Los Angeles found that black and Hispanic students who took a calculus workshop and studied more hours than whites and Asians who started with higher SAT math scores wound up getting better grades than even the Asians.
Economic and race-based interventions have never been shown to achieve the equality that was set as their justification in the first place. After all, the numbers that matter are not the percentage of blacks on the staff or in the classroom, but grade point average, reading and math test scores, and hours spent on homework and attendance. As Thomas Sowell and Lawrence Steinberg observe, if students of all races worked equally hard, their disparate rates of success and failure would plausibly lead to explanations based on, on the one hand, racism and poverty, or, on the other hand, innate superiority or inferiority. When they differ on every measure of effort, what else would you expect?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2020951) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 8:06 PM Author: Self-centered Senate Asians are a 'model minority.'
HTH. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021030) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:12 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Everyone, explain to me why Koreans in Japan do worse in education than the Japanese? If Koreans are "SO SMART" as all of you claim, why is it that Koreans are among the most low-performing groups in Japan? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021420) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:19 PM Author: ebony house Hey, what's slower, a a black lab or or a toy poodle? That's basically what you're asking.
You are one stupid piece of shit. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021436) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:28 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Look who's talking. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021473) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:31 PM Author: ebony house Who's talking? Someone who actually has common sense and an IQ above 60. Maybe you can cease to be a fool one day, work hard! Hard! Just like Asians! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021500) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:36 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Hmmm, I'm already working hard. I don't need your advice, but thanks anyways.
It's not my fault you refuse to open your mind and think for a change. It's called compare and contrast and finding similarities and differences. And guess what? You can create a coherent argument! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021528) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:37 PM Author: ebony house "You can create a coherent argument!"
Yes, yes I can. You, on the other hand.. not so much. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021535) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:48 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender What have you done jane hoya besides raising attacks and yelling "idiot" and typing capital letters? Doesn't sound good on your part. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021597) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:57 PM Author: ebony house I called to light what absolute shit this article was, and you for backing it.
Now, you can try to prove yourself right all you want-- it's hard to do, because you're not. But I have all night and I'm not going anywhere so you might as well admit defeat now. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021657) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:46 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha How can you be WORKING HARD, on cyberspace trolling and dissing for hours, yelling RACISM?? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021589) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:48 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender It's Friday.
So, hero, gonna admit that you said white guys don't know anything about Asian issues since they are not Asians themselves? Don't avoid my earlier post. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021600) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:30 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha I never said, "white guys don't know anything about Asian issues since they are not Asians themselves?"
I never spoke these words. You are spinning and flaming again. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021890) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:26 PM Author: purple crawly filthpig maybe it's because all the smart koreans stay in korea or come to america and only the stupid koreans go to japan.
maybe koreans aren't as smart as the chinks or japs but are smarter than flips and gooks.
but really, who gives a flying fuck? can't we all just get along?
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021464) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:40 PM Author: Self-centered Senate 'everyone, explain to me why Koreans in Japan do worse in education than the Japanese?'
The Japanese are a super-model-minority. The Koreans only look bad by comparasin, not objectively. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021560) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:56 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender SOURCE, please?
The fact that Koreans do the worst on exams in Japan raises questions. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021654) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:58 PM Author: purple crawly filthpig koreans only do the worst on exams in japan because there aren't any blacks or mexicans in japan. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021666) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:00 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Hmmm, you have any reasons why I should consider you a card-carrying racist? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021689) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:02 PM Author: Self-centered Senate You're just another angry little gookchink, aren't you? Please don't use your shaolin kung-fu karate rice slanty-eyed magic on me! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021707) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:03 PM Author: purple crawly filthpig get over yourself. there's racism. it sucks. you're not doing a damn thing about it by spending your time here. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021714) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 1:03 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender I noticed, boogaloo. Many of these people (although 'hero' is quite certain) are just playing along. Thank goodness I just got home from hanging out with my boyz.
Ja ne! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2022737) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:59 PM Author: Self-centered Senate It raises questions about how one race (the Japs) can be such an incredible super-model-minority.
Source of what?
You go ahead and find me Camden, Japan, or East St. Louis, Japan, and maybe you'll have an argument. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021676) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:02 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender You obviously need to take an urban history course.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I guess if I talk about zoning ordinances, racial restrictive covenants, Summer Riot of 1919, building codes, tenement houses, FHA, you will have no idea what I'm talking about, assuming yes? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021708) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 10:04 PM Author: Self-centered Senate Are you shitting me? I've made tons of money by 'blockbusting,' I clearly know how to work the system.
Face it, Mongoloids are the best minority America has. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021728) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 1:02 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender 'Blockbusting' whom, I'm wondering?
Sure...so where are the Asians in the management positions? where are the Asians in sports/entertainment? Why are most of the visible faces in America still dominanted by blacks and whites and to a certain extent including some Latinos? Name me some important Asian leaders outside California and New York. Enlighten me. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2022734) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:35 AM Author: Self-centered Senate Asians are good at science, not things like politics.
Duh.
And they are only 4% of the population anyhow. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023311) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:59 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Asians not good in politics? What a lie. iF they're not good in politics, how are Asian nations running their own countries?
It's called being "passive." No more excuses. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023350) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:06 AM Author: Self-centered Senate 'how are Asian nations running their own countries?'
Not always very well! Check out the Great Leap Forward or North Korea for instances of this.
In countries like Japan and Korea, where they haven strictly adhered to American-designed political systems, they've done fine.
The white man drafts the template, the Asians make it play video and MP3. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023368) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:12 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender You're ignoring my point. There are ASIANS who like POLITICS more so than SCIENCE & MATH. I'm not gonna generalize all Asians into one category, especially those who have an "artsy" side or who want to be commited to social change and fighting against Asian-American stereotypes. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023388) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:41 AM Author: Self-centered Senate 'There are ASIANS who like POLITICS more so than SCIENCE & MATH.'
They need to get their asses back to math class. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023495) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:48 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Gary Locke, the present Governor of Oregon, who is a Chinese American, and Yale edcucated. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023506) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:51 AM Author: Self-centered Senate Washington, and he's the former governor. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023509) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 3:05 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha I stand corrected. Gary Locke, the former two-term Democratic Governor of Washington, is the first Chinese American governor in the USA and he did not run with racial politics, as many of the blacks who were elected to public office have done. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027339) |
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Date: January 28th, 2005 9:23 PM Author: indigo appetizing range Wow, you mean there are some poor Asians? Shit, my world is upside-down!
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2021452) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 1:14 AM Author: Nofapping smoky mexican den Maybe blacks should spend less time playing basketball and more time studying. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2022757) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 10:58 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Yet Asians wonder why there are never enough of them in American professional sports which pays MILLIONS in salaries. If the Japanese from Japan can have a hold in baseball, I'm sure Asians can dominate or hold a certain position in other sports. Nice try.
::shakes my head:: (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023348) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:41 AM Author: Self-centered Senate Asians are bad at sports.
HTH. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023496) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 6:54 PM Author: indigo appetizing range Asians aren't bitching for AA in pro sports. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2025190) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 11:54 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender From the responses I've received, I'm not even taking this seriously anymore. It's obvious that this is just rants from the HOT97 radio incident and Asians are just simply being hostile because of what happened. I think it was tasteless, yet I'm not gonna dwell on the moment.
Because of that, I'm simply gonna cease. If you won't take me seriously. Guess what? I won't do the same either. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023514) |
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Date: January 29th, 2005 12:05 PM Author: Nofapping smoky mexican den It would help if your arguments were more succinct and coherent. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2023539) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 3:57 AM Author: mahogany abusive site Subject: i've skimmed this thread and your other ones... quite interesting and unique thoughts that are presented. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027427) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 8:42 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha ltorivia485 said, >> I'm actually at Northwestern on NEED-BASED aid. Colleges like Harvard and Northwestern do not use merit aid as they receive already enough quality applicants to begin with. They weed certain students out base upon background, school profile, essays, work/activities, etc. <<
In other words, you are an URM, with college educated parents, from a middle class to upper middle class economic strata (families with up to $180K a year in income are NEED-BASED), who was admitted to the private "elite" Northwestern, and who also fit the category of URMs who benefitted under race based AA with race preferences, given a leg up or tip with lower standards of admissions.
Where does leave the lower class URM with parents with less than a high school diploma, the original intended beneficiararies of race based AA?
You have displaced a DIRT POOR academically stellar Asian American or white who outperformed you acccording to all standards used in admissions, who exceeded you in all the "holistic" criteria used, and who overcame more obstacles than you ever did.
Also, you advocated for no vouchers and public education.
I don't know where you went to high school, public or private prep, but why aren't you in a public university, instead of the very private Northwestern, since that is what you advocated for??
WTF are you? A hypocrite?
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027505) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 9:05 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> Because you're too cheap to admit you were wrong and even stated that Tim Wise is not Asian-American, therefore he couldn't obviously talk about Asians, I will refuse to debate with you any further. I have better battles to choose than to argue with dishonest, hypocritical people like you who refuses to admit their own mistakes....The End <<
Hey ltorivia485,
Say what? More ad hom attacks. Is that all you have left? You ran out of gas, but you also ran out of milege on your race card. You are the one who is mistaken!!
Admissions to the elite colleges should have nothing to do with race. It should be race blind for all the reasons I've stated and that's the truth. You can't handle the truth.
I don't care if your Tim Wise is black, white, yellow, or pink. I don't care if you are black, white, yellow, or pink.
Your color, skin tone or hue should have nothing to do elite school admissions. I do not want to know your race, and the adcoms should not know either and they should not ask either.
Admissions should be race and ethnic group blind.
The rich black multi- millionaire college educated families have children who cannot compete on an equal basis with the POOREST Asian Americans and Whites from parents with less than a high school diploma. Forget about the lower middle and lower class blacks, because, as a group, they are EVEN MORE ACADEMICALLY DEFICIENT AND UNDERPREPARED. Race based AA does absolutely nothing for these poorer blacks, comprising the vast majority of of blacks in America.
Just think about this!! That's a fact that the flaming pro-race based AA liberals can't admit to or even acknowledge. They support this AA policy in denial of this to make them "feelgood", even though it may even do irreparable harm to underprepared blacks, while not attacking the main problem of poor k-12 education. Therefore, rich blacks from upper class families who are immigrants from the Carribean and Africa or the few rich Afro American descendents black slaves, are the blacks who benefit from this demented and unjust policy, not the descendants of the poor African American slaves for whom AA was intended initially. The vast majority of blacks, about 70%, at Harvard are from middle and upper class recent immigrant families, who were not the object of the racist Jim Crow Laws in America. These economically privileged blacks were admitted with race preferences and lower academic standards ( lower SAT scores and GPAs, academic awards, etc..) than the rest of the class.
Admissions should be race and ethnic group blind.
Admissions should be race and ethnic group blind.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027512) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:32 PM Author: primrose macaca So fucking true. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028284) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 9:27 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> Christopher Jencks (whom I know personally) stated nothing about genetic reasons why blacks do poorly on the test. Claude Steele also stated that socioeconomic and psychological reasons are behind why blacks do worse on testing than whites and Asians. It has nothing to do with genetics. << by ltorivia485
Please click on:
Elite school needs to give boost to poor Afro American
Elite school needs to give boost to poor Afro American
Again, the question of "innate differences" between blacks and whites/asians to explain the test score gap was posed by the authors, if not for anything else, to initiate more research on this topic and open it to a scholarly and civil debate which is still on going. The authors have not discounted "innate differences", as you did, by yelling RACISM. They simply asked the question. I am asking the same question. There is no reason to stifle debate in an open academy. Political correctness stifles academic freedom. I personally do not subscribe to the hypothesis of "innate differences" because, as far as I am concern, I have not seen the proof and evidence for this hypothesis, for either side of the debate, but the debate continues for good reason.
The numbers given by Arthur Hu do not say that blacks are "inferior", but they simply point out that they are ACADEMICALLY DEFICIENT AND UNDERPREPARED FOR WHATEVER REASONS, no matter where they live, what their family incomes are, or how many college degrees their parents hold. That's all, because they are outperformed, on the average, by the POOREST Asian Americans from parents with a high school diploma or less.
THE REASONS FOR THE GAP MUST BE ASSERTAINED, BEFORE THE GAP CAN BE CLOSED, IF IT CAN BE CLOSED.THAT'S THE POINT. OTHERWISE THERE WILL NEVER BE TRUE EQUALITY BETWEEN THE RACES!!
THE REASONS FOR THE GAP MUST BE ASERTAINED, BEFORE THE GAP CAN BE CLOSED, IF IT CAN BE CLOSED.THAT'S THE POINT. OTHERWISE THERE WILL NEVER BE TRUE EQUALITY BETWEEN THE RACES!!
THE REASONS FOR THE GAP MUST BE ASERTAINED, BEFORE THE GAP CAN BE CLOSED, IF IT CAN BE CLOSED.THAT'S THE POINT. OTHERWISE THERE WILL NEVER BE TRUE EQUALITY BETWEEN THE RACES!!
Read the book!! Damnit!!
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2027526) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:29 PM Author: Nofapping smoky mexican den Can't you just shut the fuck up? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028261) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 2:34 PM Author: heady judgmental plaza stain Dude, since you're so intent on repeating it, you should know that it's ascertain. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028294) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 4:08 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Read hero's posts on racist anti-Chinese acts and laws in Asian American history in his most recent 6 posts. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2049266) |
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Date: January 30th, 2005 3:38 PM Author: clear soul-stirring stage retarded (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2028606) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 9:03 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha The authors, Jencks and Meredith, from the "Black-White Test Score Gap" said,
"First, someone claims that the black-white gap is largely innate. Then the skeptics challenge this claim. The debate starts off largely unencumbered by evidence, but it eventually precipitates a number of useful empirical studies. The issue is not fully resolved, but the number of plausible explanations is smaller at the end of the debate than the beginning. This happened in the 1920s. It happened in the 1970s, after Arthur Jensen published, "How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement?" in the Harvard Educational Review in 1969. Its seems to be happenning again now, at least partly as result of THE BELL CURVE. This book tries to help the reader understand where the debate comes from and where it is likely to go next."
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2034008) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 3:07 PM Author: Avocado spot death wish The biggest failure of black society as a whole is their reliance on the institution of slavery as a psychological defense mechanism. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2035528) |
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Date: January 31st, 2005 10:35 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Your color, skin tone or hue should have nothing to do elite school admissions. I do not want to know your race, and the adcoms should not know either and they should not ask either.
Admissions to the elite colleges should have nothing to do with race. Admissions should be race and ethnic group blind for all the reasons I've stated and that's the truth.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2038824) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 9:15 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Unfortunately, colleges and universities are very PRO-diversity. Why do you think schools like Harvard and Stanford who boast very diverse student populations are more popular than the UGeorgia's and Vanderbilt's of the world? Even UBerkeley is having problems and is trying desperately to recruit more URMs. URMs are not applying to their school but applying to schools out-of-state with better "diverse" populations.
More diversity >>>> Makes the school looks better. Follow the $$$$$.... (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040498) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 9:30 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Diversity?
Racial diversity or racial proportional representation of the population, is synomynous with RACIAL QUOTA . Racial quotas are piss poor excuses for race based AA. Even Justice Sandra O'Connor, the swing vote in the U.of Michigan Law School 5 to 4 decision case in favor of the use of race, saw that the use of race should not last for more than another 25 years. Well, race based AA has lasted 40 years, and the Black-White/Asian Test Score Gap, performance gap, and academic achievement gap have not closed or even narrowed, but they are widening today.
"Looking good" and "feeling good" for you and these elite schools, the flaming white liberals and the black victimologists, who make a living on this, have done more harm to blacks, than the Jim Crow Laws ever did.
One must not admit underprepared and academically defiecient Blacks to the elite colleges, grad and professional schools, unless they meet minimim standards, otherwise they can't PASS the high stakes exams for licensure in medicine, law, etc,. These blacks pass at the rates of less than 50% or 40%, whereas whites/Asians pass at rates of 90%.
Looking good and all the money in the world do not improve these pass rates for blacks.
Real and true diversity TRANSCENDS RACE,
ltorivia485 also said (for which she has no answer), >> I'm actually at Northwestern on NEED-BASED aid. Colleges like Harvard and Northwestern do not use merit aid as they receive already enough quality applicants to begin with. They weed certain students out base upon background, school profile, essays, work/activities, etc. <<
In other words, you are an URM, with college educated parents, from a middle class to upper middle class economic strata (families with up to $180K a year in income are NEED-BASED), who was admitted to the private "elite" Northwestern, and who also fit the category of URMs who benefitted under race based AA with race preferences, given a leg up or tip with lower standards of admissions.
Where does leave the lower class URM with parents with less than a high school diploma, the original intended beneficiararies of race based AA?
You have also displaced a DIRT POOR academically stellar Asian American or white who outperformed you acccording to all standards used in admissions, who exceeded you in all the "holistic" criteria used, and who overcame more obstacles than you ever did.
Also, you advocated for no vouchers and public education.
I don't know where you went to high school, public or private prep, but why aren't you in a public university, instead of the very private Northwestern, since that is what you advocated for??
WTF are you? A hypocrite?
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040505) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 9:54 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Affirmative action is for URMs, women, athletes, legacies, etc. regardless of their income. If they have the means to afford the school, more power to them. If they don't, the school will give them need-based aid. It's about WHO'S APPLYING in the applicant pool. On average, you will find more middle-class blacks in the applicant pool than poor URMS. If you want to see "poor URMS" go to your local universities. You will find them there as well as poor Asians and whites. Don't you know what it's like to be poor? Most poor people don't apply to schools beyond their income level. Plus they are more likely to work off-campus. That's common sense right there.
"You have also displaced a DIRT POOR academically stellar Asian American or white who outperformed you acccording to all standards used in admissions, who exceeded you in all the "holistic" criteria used, and who overcame more obstacles than you ever did. "
Source? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040529) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 10:38 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> "You have also displaced a DIRT POOR academically stellar Asian American or white who outperformed you acccording to all standards used in admissions, who exceeded you in all the "holistic" criteria used, and who overcame more obstacles than you ever did. " <<
This is all relative.
Source:
6/24/04 New York Times: “Top Colleges Take More Blacks, but Which Ones?” Cambridge , Mass. : At the most recent reunion of Harvard University 's black alumni, there was lots of pleased talk about the increase in the number of black students at Harvard.. But the celebratory mood was broken in one forum, when some speakers brought up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students were. While about 8 percent, or about 530, of Harvard's undergraduates were black, Lani Guinier, a Harvard law professor, and Henry Louis Gates Jr., the chairman of Harvard's African and African-American studies department, pointed out that the majority of them - perhaps as many as two-thirds - were West Indian and African immigrants or their children, or to a lesser extent, children of biracial couples. They said that only about a third of the students were from families in which all four grandparents were born in this country, descendants of slaves. Many argue that it was students like these, disadvantaged by the legacy of Jim Crow laws, segregation and decades of racism, poverty and inferior schools, who were intended as principal beneficiaries of affirmative action in university admissions. What concerned the two professors, they said, was that in the high-stakes world of admissions to the most selective colleges - and with it, entry into the country's inner circles of power, wealth and influence - African-American students whose families have been in America for generations were being left behind. "I just want people to be honest enough to talk about it," Professor Gates, the Yale-educated son of a West Virginia paper-mill worker, said recently, reiterating the questions he has been raising since the black alumni weekend last fall. "What are the implications of this?" Both Professor Gates and Professor Guinier emphasize that this is not about excluding immigrants, whom sociologists describe as a highly motivated, self-selected group. Blacks, who make up 13 percent of the United States population, are still underrepresented at Harvard and other selective colleges, they said. The conversation that bubbled up that weekend has continued across campus here and beyond as these professors and others publicly raise painful and complicated questions about race and class and how they play out in elite university admissions, issues that some educators and black admissions officers have privately talked about for some time. There is no consensus on the answers, and since most institutions say they do not look into the origins of their black students, the absence of hard data makes the discussion even more difficult. Some educators, including the president of Harvard, Lawrence H. Summers, declined to comment on the issue; others are divided. The president of Amherst College , Anthony W. Marx, says that colleges should care about the ethnicity of black students because in overlooking those with predominantly American roots, colleges are missing an "opportunity to correct a past injustice" and depriving their campuses "of voices that are particular to being African-American, with all the historical disadvantages that that entails." But others say there is no reason to take the ancestry of black students into account. "I don't think it should matter for purposes of admissions in higher education," said Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia University , who as president of the University of Michigan fiercely defended its use of affirmative action. "The issue is not origin, but social practices. It matters in American society whether you grow up black or white. It's that differential effect that really is the basis for affirmative action." Professors Gates and Guinier cite various sources for their figures about Harvard's black students, including conversations with administrators and students, a recent Harvard undergraduate honors thesis based on extensive student interviews, and the "Black Guide to Life at Harvard," which surveyed 70 percent of the black undergraduates and was published last year by the Harvard Black Students Association. Researchers at Princeton University and the University of Pennsylvania who have been studying the achievement of minority students at 28 selective colleges and universities (including theirs, as well as Yale, Columbia, Duke and the University of California at Berkeley), found that 41 percent of the black students identified themselves as immigrants, as children of immigrants or as mixed race. Douglas S. Massey, a Princeton sociology professor who was one of the researchers, said the black students from immigrant families and the mixed-race students represented a larger proportion of the black students than that in the black population in the United States generally. Andrew A. Beveridge, a sociologist at Queens College , says that among 18- to 25-year-old blacks nationwide, about 9 percent describe themselves as of African or West Indian ancestry. Like the Gates and Guinier numbers, these tallies do not include foreign students. In the 40 or so years since affirmative action began in higher education, the focus has been on increasing the numbers of black students at selective colleges, not on their family background. Professor Massey said that the admissions officials he talked to at these colleges seemed surprised by the findings about the black students. "They really didn't have a good idea of what they're getting," he said. But few black students are surprised. Sheila Adams, a Harvard senior, was born in the South Bronx to a school security officer and a subway token seller, and her family has been in this country for generations. Ms. Adams said there were so few black students like her at Harvard that they had taken to referring to themselves as "the descendants." The subject, however, remains taboo among some college administrators. Anthony Carnevale, a former vice president at the Educational Testing Service, which develops SAT tests, said colleges were happy to the take high-performing black students from immigrant families. "They've found an easy way out," Mr. Carnevale said. "The truth is, the higher-education community is no longer connected to the civil rights movement. These immigrants represent Horatio Alger, not Brown v. Board of Education and America 's race history." Almost from its inception, following the civil rights struggles of the 1960's, affirmative action has been attacked and redefined. In its 1978 Bakke decision, the Supreme Court shifted the rationale away from issues of social justice to the educational value of diversity. One black admissions official at a highly selective college said the reluctance of college officials to discuss these issues has helped obscure the scarcity of black students whose families have been in this country for generations. "If somebody does not start paying attention to those who are not able to make it in, they're going to start drifting farther and farther behind," said the official, who declined to be identified because the subject is so charged. "You've got to say that the long-term blacks were either dealt a crooked hand, or something is innately wrong with them. And I simply won't accept that there is something wrong with them." Mary C. Waters, the chairman of the sociology department at Harvard, who has studied West Indian immigrants, says they are initially more successful than many African-Americans for a number of reasons. Since they come from majority-black countries, they are less psychologically handicapped by the stigma of race. In addition, many arrive with higher levels of education and professional experience. And at first, they encounter less discrimination. "You need a philosophical discussion about what are the aims of affirmative action,'' Professor Waters said. "If it's about getting black faces at Harvard, then you're doing fine. If it's about making up for 200 to 500 years of slavery in this country and its aftermath, then you're not doing well. And if it's about having diversity that includes African-Americans from the South or from inner-city high schools, then you're not doing well, either." Even among black scholars there is disagreement on whether a discussion about the origins of black students is helpful. Orlando Patterson, a Harvard sociologist and West Indian native, said he wished others would "let sleeping dogs lie." "The doors are wide open - as wide open as they ever will be - for native-born black middle-class kids to enter elite colleges," he wrote in an e-mail message. There is also wide disagreement about what, if anything, should be done about the underrepresentation of African-American students whose families have been here for generations. Even Professor Gates, who can trace his ancestry back to slaves, and Professor Guinier, whose mother is white and whose father immigrated from Jamaica , emphasize different ideas. "This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black indigenous middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense of purpose and values which produced our generation." In Professor Guinier's view, there are plenty of other blacks who could also succeed at elite colleges, but the institutions are not doing enough to find them. She said they were overly reliant on measures like SAT scores, which correlate strongly with family wealth and parental education. "Colleges and universities are defaulting on their obligation to train and educate a representative group of future leaders," said Professor Guinier, a Harvard graduate herself who has been studying college admissions practices for more than a decade. "And they are excluding poor and working-class whites, not just descendants of slaves." Harvard admissions officials say that they, too, are concerned about attracting more lower-income students of all races. They plan to spend an additional $300,000 to $375,000 a year to recruit more low-income students and provide more financial aid to these students. "This increases the chances that we will be able to reach into the communities that have not been reached," said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions and financial aid. While Harvard officials ignore the ethnic distinctions among their black students, Harvard's black undergraduates are developing a body of literature in the form of student research papers. Aisha Haynie, the undergraduate whose senior thesis Professor Guinier cited, said her research was prompted by the reaction from her black classmates when she told them that she was not from the West Indies or Africa, but from the Carolinas . "They would say, 'No, where are you really from?' " said Ms.. Haynie, 26, who earned a master's degree in public policy at Princeton and is now in medical school. Marques J. Redd, a 20-year-old from Macon , Ga. , who graduated in June and was one of the editors of Harvard's black student guide, said that Harvard officials had discouraged them from collecting the data on who the black students were. "But we thought it was one aspect of the black experience at Harvard that should be documented," he said. "The knowledge had power. It was something that needed to be out in the open instead of something that people whispered about."
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040581) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 10:46 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha 7/12/02 Wall Street Journal: "Extra Credit. To Get into UCLA, It Helps To Face `Life Challanges,'. University of California System Raises Number of Blacks and Hispanics Admitted. Are Obstacles Created Equal?" Stanley Park felt as if the University of California, Los Angeles, had revamped its admissions criteria just for him. UCLA was looking for students who had overcome "life challenges," such as family illness, being raised by a single parent or being the first in the family to go to college. After Mr. Park's parents, Korean immigrants of modest means, divorced three years ago, he lived with his mother. When she developed breast cancer, he began tutoring children to help pay the rent. Despite his work commitment, he scored an impressive 1500 out of 1600 on his SAT college admissions exam. UCLA and the state university's other elite campus, Berkeley, both rejected Mr. Park. Blanca Martinez also grew up in a working-class immigrant family, and also helped support it when his mother had breast cancer. Her SAT score, though, was 390 points below Mr. Park's. Both Berkeley and UCLA admitted her. The University of California has adopted a new admissions system, one that proponents say helps to equalize opportunity for all. Starting this spring, all applicants were weighed under a process known as comprehensive review, which awards extra credit for surmounting a wide range of personal, family, or psychological obstacles - what UCLA calls life challenges. But critics are wondering if the university cares more about life challenges for some students than for others, in violation of a 1996 state referendum that barred giving preferences to racial or ethnic groups. One outspoken critic is David Benjamin, owner of an SAT-preparation business. "It is simply shameful that it is worth less to be poor and Asian than to be poor and Hispanic," he says. The Pacific Legal Foundation, a nonprofit law firm that defended the referendum, called Proposition 209, will seek to review admission records for signs of bias. Former UCLA admissions director Rae Lee Siporin says the new system also was intended to make the student body as reflective as possible of the state's population. She says UCLA determined that simply using poverty as an index of disadvantage would reduce diversity, because it wouldn't help middle-class blacks and Hispanics and it would "pull in" lots of low-income Asians. Latino legislative leader Marco Antonio Firebaugh, a force behind adoption of the new system, agrees: "We found that using poverty yields a lot of poor white kids and poor Asian kids," he says. The formulas UCLA and other campuses chose instead give hefty boosts to the students - predominantly Hispanic and African-American - who attend low-performing high schools targeted by university outreach programs. Under the new criteria, Hispanics and blacks admitted to the University of California for next fall rose to 18.5% of the total, nudging past pre-Proposition 209 levels for the first time. UCLA admitted 9% more Latinos and 19% more blacks than last year, but slightly fewer Asian-Americans and 7% fewer non- Hispanic whites. Nevertheless, the university's enrollment remains far from a mirror of California: Hispanics make up about a third of the state population but only an eighth of the University of California's nearly 150,000 undergraduates. Asians are 11% of the population but almost 40% of the undergraduates. At UCLA last fall, the average SAT score of Hispanics who got in was 1168. That was below the average score for Asians and non-Hispanic whites who didn't get in, 1174 and 1209 respectively. (Accepted whites scores an average 1355, and accepted Asians 1344). Applicants to the University of California must meet its minimum academic standards. Among other yardsticks for eligibility, they must take SAT II exams that measure mastery of a field of study. Starting last year, the university doubled the weight given to SAT II scores. The switch was a boon to Latinos, because one SAT II test they can take measures knowledge of Spanish. At Mr. Park's University High in Irvine, while the student body is 50% non-Hispanic white and 41% Asian-American, UCLA acceptances plunged to 69 students this year from 89 last year, and Berkeley admissions fell from 47 to 63. Principal Diana Schmelzer thinks she knows why: "Our students come from stable homes and their parents are teachers, doctors and lawyers. It feels as though the kid who works very hard and comes from an upper-middle class family is in fact the disadvantaged student" under the new admissions criteria. She has in mind students such as Albert Shin, an engineer's son turned down by UCLA and Berkeley despite a 1540 SAT score. Hyejin Jae, a classmate also spurned by Berkeley and UCLA, worries that she hurt her chances by soft-peddling family hardships. But "I didn't want too much of a pity party," says Ms. Jae, who scored 1410 on her SATs and is the daughter of a struggling Korean-immigrant pastor. "No matter how bad your situation is, somebody has it worse." She, Mr. Park, and Mr. Shin will attend the university's San Diego campus. At 99% Hispanic South Gate High School near Los Angeles, Blanca Martinez's alma mater, the number of seniors accepted by the university's elite campuses has surged. Berkeley took 16 South Gate seniors this year, compared with six two years ago. UCLA took 36, compared with 14 in 2000. Although UCLA overall accepted fewer than one-fourth of its applicants, it took more than half of those from South Gate. Most of these UCLA-bound students, like Ms. Martinez, are children of blue-collar immigrants from Mexico. Dania Medina, whose father is a machine operator and mother a cosmetologist, scored just 410 out of 800 on her verbal SAT, along with 640 in math. Ms. Medina, who wrote her admissions essay about having a sister with Down syndrome, expects to be placed in a low-level English course at UCLA. Classmate Susana Pena, daughter of a construction worker, will enter UCLA with a 940 SAT score, 380 points below the average for students admitted for this fall. "People should understand it's harder for us," she says. "Once in a while, they should give us a little break so we can catch up to them." One reason these students, and not Mr. Park, Ms. Jae or Mr. Shin, made the cut may be that they took part in University of California outreach programs. Most campuses give extra credit toward admission for this. But the university offers such programs only at low-ranked high schools, not high-ranked schools such as University High. After Proposition 209 passed, the university more than quadrupled spending on outreach to $85 million. Robert Laird, a former Berkeley admissions director, says the University of California is under "tremendous pressure" from Hispanic legislators to show that the big investment in outreach is paying off in higher Latino enrollment. Outreach workers coach students on how to write college application essays. At another mainly Hispanic high school near Los Angeles, Belmont, UCLA student and outreach worker Alex Paredes helped Rosaura Novelo edit her application essay. UCLA admitted her despite an SAT score of 980. UCLA took 24 seniors from Belmont, triple last year's number. The advice outreach workers give isn't guesswork: Some of them do double duty as evaluators of applicants to attend UCLA. They don't rule on particular candidates they have recruited. The Pacific Legal Foundation in Sacramento is expected to file public records requests this month on behalf of two students rejected by the Berkeley, Los Angeles and San Diego campuses. It wants to determine whether they were casualties of raced-based preferences. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040592) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 12:30 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> "You have also displaced a DIRT POOR academically stellar Asian American or white who outperformed you acccording to all standards used in admissions, who exceeded you in all the "holistic" criteria used, and who overcame more obstacles than you ever did. Source? " <<
45% of UC Berkeley, 40% of UCLA, 20% of U.of Texas- Austin, 25% of Stanford, 27% of MIT, and 29% of CalTech are Asian Americans, yet only 15% of the 8 Ivies are Asian Americans because of discrimnatory quotas against them.
Click on:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35075-2005Jan25?language=printer
washingtonpost.com
Quotas for Asian Americans? Yes and No
Jay Mathews said, "Asian American applicants to selective colleges appear to be at a disadvantage. Nationally, they have the highest average SAT scores, and yet many African American and Hispanic students with lower scores and grades are accepted to Ivy Leagues schools while high-performing Asian American students are rejected even when their families are similarly poor and undereducated."
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041078) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 12:57 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha ltorivia485 asked, ["You have also displaced a DIRT POOR academically stellar Asian American or white who outperformed you acccording to all standards used in admissions, who exceeded you in all the "holistic" criteria used, and who overcame more obstacles than you ever did. " Source?]
Admissions for each racial group is ALL RELATIVE in this zero sum game of racial preferences for underachieving and underperforming blacks, no matter what economic class they come from. Blacks in the elite colleges admitted with race-based AA with lower standards, objectively and holistically, displace higher performing poorer whites and Asians who are rejected in favor of these higher economic class and privileged blacks who are lower performing and underachieving. !!!
Here are the reasons, source, and facts to back up the previous statements:
Please address the following and answer my questions. They Racial Gaps can only be closed in testing (all of standardized testing) and more importantly, in ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT, once we find the answers to these politically incorrect questions.
THE MAIN POINTS (POLITICALLY INCORRECT POINTS)
Re: Standardized Testing resuts and more importantly, Academic Achievement results
A. This would show that blacks from the highest income levels of $100k/year or more score lower than Asian Americans and Whites from the lowest income levels of $40k/year or less. The real question is simply, "How do you explain this? What are the reasons for this?
B. This would also show that blacks from parents with a college degree or more score lower on the SAT I that Asian Americans and Whites from parents will a high school diploma or less. Again, the real question is simply, "How do you explain this? What are the reasons for this?
C. The College Board had released these figures up to 1995 (I had given you the source for these figures from the CB), and they stopped afterwards because these facts were politically incorrect and damning for the pro-race based AA people, because they could not explain the disparity of scoring based on income alone or with parental education. There are many other factors involved, including cultural, sociological, psychological, and possibly "innate differences", to use Pres. Summers' own words in this instance, that may explain the differences between the races in scoring. Obviously, more research needs to be done, but just the mere mention of this to highlight the aformentioned facts from these SAT I testing results, previously released from the College Board, would bring forth charges of racism, which will do nothing to close the racial gap in testing and academic achievement.
Here's a link to verify the facts above:
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm
STANDARDIZED TESTS: THE INTERPRETATION OF RACIAL AND ETHNIC GAPS
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041207) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 10:02 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Since when the hell did I advocate against public education?!?!?!?! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040540) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 11:11 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha You were against vouchers for school choice and private k-12 education (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040661) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 12:53 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender Uh, I'm against school vouchers and charter schools. They ruin public education. And show no signs they are better than public schools.
Keep in mind my state has the 5th largest concentration of charter schools in the country.
DESIREE COOPER: A lesson on the fallibility of charters
August 19, 2004
BY DESIREE COOPER FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
On Tuesday, the New York Times revealed that, based upon 2003 National Assessment of Educational Progress data, charter schools are lagging behind traditional public schools. Only 25 percent of fourth-graders in charter schools were proficient in reading and math. Among public schoolchildren, 30 percent were proficient in reading and 32 percent were proficient in math.
So much for the notion of charters as the educational magic bullet.
Shifting problems The report has been assailed as a politically motivated, election-year attack against President George W. Bush's No Child Left Behind law that allows failing public schools to convert to charters.
The Michigan Association of Public School Academies contends that in Michigan, charter schools have made greater gains than the state average in seven of 10 measures on the 2004 MEAP. But the national report was based on the NAEP and confirmed what I've experienced as a Detroit parent having researched charter schools and sent my own children to them.
Beneath their rosy promises lies the truth: Charter schools in urban settings are struggling to educate the same children that public schools are struggling to serve -- often with fewer resources and less-experienced teachers.
A decade ago, charter schools were opening in the Detroit area laboring under the notion that not only would their educational approaches be different, so would their students. Any parent who was motivated enough to seek out a charter school would be highly involved, they believed.
But for every child who came to a charter school for the innovative learning environment, there was another whose parents were trying to solve the child's behavioral, emotional or learning problems. That was something many charter school teachers -- often new and uncertified -- were ill-equipped to handle.
Not making the grade Tom Loveless, director of the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution, agreed.
"With charter schools, you may find highly motivated parents," he said. "But a motivated parent is not the same as a high-achieving student. Charter schools are often set up in places where the schools are failing. Therefore, you're going to get children who are already behind in school. That's why the low test scores for charter schools is not surprising."
The public, on the other hand, may be shocked, he said, "because people tend to equate any alternative to public schools with private or parochial schools."
But charter schools are neither. While they often offer a positive, stimulating in-school culture, the fact remains that the culture of the surrounding community inevitably seeps in -- and so do that community's problems. Unlike private or parochial schools, charters are unable to price or pray their way to better student outcomes.
Loveless emphasizes that the NEAP data doesn't allow for the fact that many charters specifically serve the most poorly performing students. Moreover, that data measures one point in time, not a trend.
In fact, last year he released a study of 569 schools in 10 states. The study showed that while charter school students scored lower than public school students in 2000, the gap had significantly narrowed by 2002.
In the end, charter schools need exactly what they've accused public schools of lacking -- accountability. Perhaps the real news here is not that charters are doing worse than public schools but, after years of hope and hype, that they aren't doing any better.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041193) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 1:12 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Since when the hell did I advocate against public education?!?!?!?!
(How Whites Use Asians to Further Anti-Black racism)
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Date: February 1st, 2005 11:11 AM Author: hero
You were against vouchers for school choice and private k-12 education
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041257) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 1:32 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender How can I be against private K-12 education when I went to both public and private schools all my life?
I am against charter schools. Source please? (Don't give me a link. Give me a freaken passage that I stated the above.) (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041338) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 1:52 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha >> How can I be against private K-12 education when I went to both public and private schools all my life? <<
Hypocrisy at its best, ltorivia485.
You want it both ways then? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041463) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 2:26 PM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender I am against charter schools. Source please? (Don't give me a link. Give me a freaken passage that I stated the above.) (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041684) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 12:37 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha You prefer anti- Asian Am quotas and race preferences then.
>> who prefer diverse environments, not the sheltered academic schools ::coughs::UC-Irvine::coughs:: of the world. <<
>> More diversity >>>> Makes the school looks better. <<
How about the most prestigious, academically elite and diverse public university in America and in the world, both public or private, UC Berkeley, where Asian Americans are 45% of the students. Can you think of more diverse environment, intellectually and academically?? Would you "cough" here?
Well, race preferences never worked in history, not in Nazi Germany or present day Bosnia.
How about Stanford, where Asian Ams are 25% of the students, and it would be higher, were it not for Stanford's anti-Asian Am quota?
How about Harvard, where Jews are over 30% of the students for only 2.5% of the American population? Do you have a problem with this. I DO NOT.
I don't care if Harvard is 40% or 50% or 60% or 2.5% Jewish or even 30% Jewish, which it is. You obviously don't care. Harvard has no quotas for Jews, yet it has for Asian Ams, the only non-preferred group, limiting Asian Ams to 17%. The 8 Ivies, on the average, limit Asian Ams to 15%, where Jews are 25% of the Ivies, sans quotas.
Then why should you object to UC Irvine being 60% Asian Am or UC Berkeley being 45% Asian Am, making Berkeley the most illustious and meritocratic university in the world, without race preferences in admissions?
"Racial diversiy", "proportional respresentation of the races" and "critical masses" are synomyns for RACIAL QUOTAS. Quotas will never work, no matter what you call them.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041138) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 4:16 AM Author: hot sound barrier faggot firefighter i'm not reading the whole unending thing, but it seems to contradict itself, saying "asians aren't doing that well" and "asians are self-selected and thus do better" (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040358) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 10:02 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Check out these threads also:
Elite school needs to give boost to poor Afro American
Elite school needs to give boost to poor Afro American
Quotas for Asian Americans? Yes and No
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2040541) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 1:26 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Jay Mathews of the Washington Post said,
[One of Chin's favorite examples of the Asian success at overcoming poverty is Princeton physicist Daniel C. Tsui, who won a Nobel Prize in 1998. He was born to a peasant family in a remote village in Henan province in central China, attended school in Hong Kong and then got a college scholarship to Augustana College in Rock Island, Ill., leading to his research at the University of Chicago, Bell Laboratories and Princeton.]
[There was no affirmative action admission for Tsui, Chin said. "He credits his accomplishments to his Chinese parents' value placed on education, despite the fact that they were illiterate Chinese peasants themselves. These values are stressed by the philosopher, Confucius, in his Analects. That's the main ingredient for his success and his endless striving for academic excellence and his love of knowledge." ]
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2060386) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 12:57 PM Author: drunken french chef location I would probably have joined this debate if I saw it in its infancy. As it stands, there are 99999999999999 sub-threads and I have no motivation to dig through.
Maybe if you fuckers started a new thread, this chink will be able to provide a chink's point of view. You're all just a bunch of whities, right? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041208) |
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Date: February 1st, 2005 1:07 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha It really doesn't matter what race or color you are, but feel free to provide a "chink's perspective". It is most welcome. The one who is yelling RACISM on all the threads, ltorivia485, has identified herself as an URM, from parents with a college education and the middle to upper middle class, with all its economic privileges, admitted with lower standards than the rest of the class and who is presumably, black. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2041230) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 9:10 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha "Where There's Blue Smoke, There's Fire" said,
>> Racism against Asians seemed to be of a xenophobic nature, i.e. whites mainly wanting to avoid them. The same attempts weren't made to destroy Asian communities, and to prevent them from ever owning property or business. Many recent immigrants in the west were able to start small businesses and prosper - those blacks who attempted to do so in the south were often threatened, killed, chased out of town, etc. <<
Total bullshit.
I cannot even believe how you can make a statement like this one. You are either ignorant or plain stupid or both.
Racism against the Chinese was total!! It was institutionalized and legalized by anti-Chinese racist laws and with physical violence perpetrated against many Chinese by the racists in America, who viewed them as inferior and less than humam.
There were MANY ATTEMPTS made to destroy Chinese communities in America, with anti-Chinese racist laws, as well as physical violence againt the early Chinese indentured servants, living in conditions much worse than the freed black slaves, whom they had replaced in the labor force, in agriculture in California, by inventing new methods and new crops (Bing cherries), and the fishing industries. The Chinese were the first to eat shrimp in America, popularized the consumption of shrimp and farmed it with their ingenious fishing methods. They built America's Transcontinental Railroad, as well as Canada's railroad. They were more efficient than the Irish, whom they replaced, and were rewarded with racist acts against them. The early Chinese, as a small group, contributed more than their share in the building of America. The early Chinese were killed with impunity by whites because they could not testify in a court of law, and lacked the Writ of Habeas Corpus. They were denied the right to own land and their housing, and to have an education, speaking "pidkgin" English at best. They were denied the right to own money in a bank. They were denied the right to vote and they were denied the right of travel outside the USA and basically held captive in America and were denied the right to inter-marry with whites, and the right to bring their women to America, except for prostitution, creating a society of male bachelors, called Sojourners, unable to retutn to China.
The term, "not a Chinaman's chance" came from the Irish foremen, who assigned the most dangerous tasks to the Chinese workers. They were the ones who planted and set the charges of dynamite in the mountainsides to clear the way for the tracks and many died in doing this, and hence this racist phrase was coined.
They were denied the right of citizenship, EVEN BY BIRTHRIGHT. Now in America, individuals who are born here of non-citizen parents, have a right of American citizenship, because an American born Chinese brought his case to US Supreme Court, winning this right of citizenship for anyone born in America. They were also subjected to many of the Jim Crow Laws that the blacks were subjected to.
There is a history of blatant and concerted racism against Asian Americans in America history, with even the total destruction of Chinese American towns by burnings and lynchings, as well as lynchings in NYC on the site of NYC's Chinatown. All this were made possible by the white racist laws which culminated in the "Yellow Peril" anti-Asian era of history. In the legislature, the Chinese were considered less than hunman, along side of the blacks who actually had more rights during this period. You will find the descendants of these early Chinese in SF, California and throughout America and they have attained the Dream in only several generations, by pulling themslves up with education at the highest levels without any assistance from Federal programs, despite early racist laws against them.
Much of this racist legislation against Chinese Americans, such as the right to racially intermarry with whites and even the right to own land in some states were not removed until the advent of the Civil Rights era of the 1960s.
Your statements are just fucking ignorant, and you make this blanket statement without knowing anything about Asian American history.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047216) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 10:40 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: Lawsuits filed by Asian-Americans that have affected the lives Lawsuits filed by Asian-Americans that have affected the lives of all Americans:
5/19/04 Dallas Morning News: "Little-known cases, big impact," by Esther Wu Monday marked the 50th anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court's landmark Brown vs. Board of Education decision, which declared segregated schools unconstitutional. However, long before the parents of 7-year-old Linda Brown in Topeka, Kan., filed their suit, the parents of another little girl fought to get their daughter into a public school in San Francisco. Historically there hasn't been much fanfare about the 1885 case of 8-year-old Mamie Tape, which reached the California Supreme Court. But it was just one of many significant lawsuits filed by Asian-Americans that have affected the lives of all Americans: • Tape vs. the San Francisco Board of Education and Spring Valley School, 1885. The California Supreme Court ordered the school to admit Mamie Tape, but officials hastily lobbied the state Legislature to pass a provision to create schools for children of Mongolian or Chinese descent. Legislators decreed that when such separate schools exist, the children must not be admitted to any other school. In effect, they introduced the separate but equal doctrine that would eventually lead to the constitutional basis for segregation nationwide. In 1890, Homer A. Plessy challenged a Louisiana law requiring separate train cars for blacks and whites, but U.S. Supreme Court justices – based in part on the Tape decision – ruled that the "separate but equal" facilities were constitutional. • Gong Lum vs. Rice, 1927. The Supreme Court ruled that a Mississippi school district could legally require a Chinese-American child to attend a black school rather than a white school, applying the "separate but equal" rule that later would be challenged in Brown vs. Board of Education. • United States vs. Wong Kim Ark; 1898. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the government couldn't take away a person's birthright. In 1882, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, which restricted Chinese immigrants from entering this country and denied them citizenship. Before that act was repealed, Wong Kim Ark, who was born in San Francisco in 1873, left the United States and upon his return was denied entry on the grounds he was no longer a citizen. The court ruled the government could not deny Mr. Wong his citizenship. • Yick Wo vs. Hopkins, 1886. The U.S. Supreme Court overturned a San Francisco ordinance aimed at restricting the location of Chinese laundries. The justices said the ordinance targeted a racial minority and therefore violated the constitutional rights of equal protection under the law. • Lau vs. Nichols, 1973. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the San Francisco school system violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by denying non-English-speaking Chinese students the opportunity to fully participate in a public education. The justices said providing students with the same books; teachers and curriculum did not necessarily ensure student's equal opportunities if instructions were in a language students could not understand. The case would help pave the way for English as a Second Language programs. Unlike the previous cases, a recent ruling by a Tennessee judge involving a Chinese immigrant couple has drawn concern from Asian-American civil rights groups. In Baker vs. He, a state district judge ruled last week that Jack and Casey Luo He were unfit parents and awarded custody of their 5-year-old daughter to her foster parents, Jerry and Louise Baker. The Hes, who have custody of their two younger children, said they had given temporary custody of their oldest child to the Bakers while they were undergoing financial difficulties. The Bakers said the Hes abandoned their daughter. While there were many factors in this case, the judge noted that Mrs. He could not speak English. He further noted that the couple – which may be deported over immigration issues – might take their daughter back to China, where there is a "one-child-per-family" policy.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047452) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 10:46 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: "Many States Pushed to Eliminate Racist Anti-Asian Laws," 5/28/02 Associated Press: "Many States Pushed to Eliminate Racist Anti-Asian Laws," Topeka, Kan. -- Nearly seven decades after the Legislature banned Asian immigrants from inheriting property in Kansas, the law is about to be struck from the books. Only three states -- Kansas, New Mexico and Florida -- still have ``alien land laws.'' Kansas is about to repeal its version; New Mexico voters will decide in November and Florida has taken no action. The Alien Land Law Project at the University of Cincinnati Law School (Alien Land Law Project: http://www.law.uc.edu/inlr/all/) brought the laws to the attention of the three states plus Wyoming, which repealed its statute last year. In Kansas, Gov. Bill Graves is expected to sign the bill (SB 492) repealing the 1933 law barring Asians from inheriting property. Originally, the law passed in 1925 barred Asians from owning property in the state. ``I'm real proud of the fact that Kansas is stepping up and repealing a discriminatory Jim Crow era statute,'' said Rep. John Burroughs, D-Kansas City. ``It says a lot about how we feel about Kansas citizens.'' Burroughs, who represents a large Asian community, said the statute was brought to his attention by Jack Chin, head of the Alien Land Law Project. The project was organized by Chin, a law professor, and law students at the University of Cincinnati. It was inspired by the repeal of interracial marriage laws in Alabama and South Carolina. The United States specifically limited immigration of Asians from 1862-1965. During that span, more than a dozen states passed laws banning Asian immigrants from owning and inheriting property. California was the first in 1913. The prohibition moved east with states taking the language directly from federal naturalization law. Immigrants who violated the laws faced imprisonment, fines and seizure of their property. Most states did away with the laws between 1940 and 1960. Legislatures and elected officials in Kansas, Florida, New Mexico and Wyoming received detailed legal memoranda documenting the history of the laws and arguments for repeal from Chin's project. Last year, the Wyoming Legislature repealed its 1943 alien land law, which had been enacted in response to placement of Japanese aliens in an internment camp in the state. ``It didn't actually specify Japanese, but it was worded in such a way that the practical application was Japanese who were aliens in Wyoming, couldn't buy land,'' said Wyoming state Sen. Keith Goodenough, D-Natrona, who sponsored the bill. All of the alien land laws are now unconstitutional under federal law, but Chin believes they should still be repealed. In New Mexico and Florida, repealing the statutes is more difficult because they are in the state's constitutions. Voters, not lawmakers, would have the final word. New Mexico voters will make that choice in November. The proposed constitutional amendment was introduced by state Sen. Cisco McSorley, D-Albuquerque, who had been contacted by law students at the University of New Mexico. McSorley said the effort to amend the constitution faced virtually no opposition, but some worried that voters might reject it because they didn't understand the issue. ``If it was defeated at the polls it would be a monumental setback for civil rights in the state and some thought it would be better to let sleeping dogs lie and not take the chance,'' he said. Florida is the only state that hasn't acted on the restrictions. Legislative staff in Florida were surprised the language was in the state's constitution and that nothing had been done about it. Calls to the governor's office Friday were not returned. The Alien Land Law Project said Rep. Phillip Brutus, D-Miami Shores, had planned to introduce a bill this year to deal with the issue, but did not. Brutus was on vacation and unavailable for comment Friday. With three of the four states taking action, Chin said the project is now focusing on all immigration laws. He said the group's work on the issue in Florida would be turned over to lawyers and law students there. Another part of the effort was a letter signed by 100 law professors from across the country sent to the states. Robert Porter, a law professor at the University of Kansas, said it was necessary for states to clean up the legal remnants of discrimination.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047476) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 11:09 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: History of Racism Against Asian Americans Excerpt from May 11, 2001 Keynote Address by Ambassador Julia Chang Bloch to Asian Pacific American Institute for Congressional Studies 2001 Leadership Academy
History of Racism Against Asian Americans
Perhaps this "perpetual foreigner-syndrome" is so prevalent because it has deep historical roots. From this country's early days, Asian Americans were thought of as foreign, different, and unable to assimilate.
Over one hundred years ago in 1882, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act -- the only U.S. law to prevent immigration and naturalization on the basis of race -- and renewed the law in 1892 and 1902, and then extended it indefinitely in 1904.
In 1889, the United States Supreme Court upheld the exclusion and expulsion of Chinese from America, and Chinese immigration would remain restricted for the next sixty years. Americans, however, do not differentiate between Asian Americans.
By 1924, with the exception of Filipino "nationals" (the Philippines was annexed by the U.S. as a result of the 1898 Spanish-American War), all Asian immigrants, including Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Indians were fully excluded by law, denied citizenship and naturalization, and prevented from marrying Caucasians or owning land.
America fully shut its doors to Asians in 1935, when the Tydings-McDuffie Act placed an annual quota of fifty on Filipino migration, effectively excluding their entry as well. US immigration laws discriminated against Asians until 1965.
As late as 1914, the Supreme Court upheld the principle that citizenship could be denied to foreign-born Asians. Only in response to the civil rights movement, did the US government reverse itself and abolish the national-origins system on immigration.
Until recently, Asian Americans did not enjoy the most basic rights of other Americans, no matter how long we lived in this country. Let me just share a few examples:
In 1854, the California Supreme Court ruled it constitutional that "all people of color" could be excluded from giving evidence in court against white people. This decision was aimed primarily against the Chinese, but, in fact, it made all people of color fair game to persecution and even murder with impunity.
The Geary Act of 1892 stripped the Chinese of any protection in the courts, including denying them bail in habeas corpus cases.
In 1913, the Alien Land Act was enacted forbidding "aliens ineligible to citizenship" -- meaning Asians -- from purchasing land, and a subsequent act in 1920 prohibited leasing and, even, sharecropping. These laws were not repealed until 1956.
The Chinese gained the right to citizenship in 1943 because China had fought on the side of the Allies in World War II. The Japanese did not gain that right until 1952. Sadly, although many Asian Americans know the terrible history of slavery, few are familiar with our own history of discrimination and persecution in this country.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047581) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 11:47 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha "Born in the U.S.A.: The landmark legal case of Wong Kim Ark, and how Asian-Pacific Americans won the right to be Americans,"
8/5/04 www.imdiversity.com: "Born in the U.S.A.: The landmark legal case of Wong Kim Ark, and how Asian-Pacific Americans won the right to be Americans," By Frank H. Wu, Howard University Like most Americans, I have almost always taken my citizenship for granted. But like some Americans, I have had my citizenship challenged often enough to realize that I should care about its origins. I was born a citizen, but birth alone did not always confer citizenship. All of us who care about our civil rights should realize that we owe a measure of our shared equality to an individual named Wong Kim Ark. A century ago in California , Wong took on the federal government in an effort to win his right to remain in his homeland. His legal case ended up in the Supreme Court. His victory shows how, despite recurring racial prejudice, our country can remain true to its ideals. It is worthwhile to reflect on our history, not to condemn the past by contemporary standards, but to understand how we came to where we are now. There are valuable lessons in these forgotten episodes. In the middle of the nineteenth century, Chinese immigrants began to arrive here. They were recruited to work on Southern plantations and Eastern factories. More than ten thousand of them helped build the transcontinental railroad; when they finished the job, they were fired. In frontier towns such as San Francisco , Chinese laborers represented more than a quarter of the population at times. But with an economic downturn, whites – many of whom themselves were recent arrivals to the United States – saw non-whites as racial competition. Politicians began to agitate against them, shouting the rallying cry, "The Chinese Must Go!" In 1882, heeding warnings that Asians might overwhelm the West Coast, Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act. As the name of the bill suggested, it prohibited most people of Chinese descent from coming to this country. Later, Congress would extend the policy to create an Asiatic Barred Zone. In the 1920s, the Supreme Court confirmed that Japanese and Asian Indians were not "free white persons" and thus could not naturalize. After Exclusion, contrary to images of a submissive subculture isolated from the mainstream, Chinese communities engaged in civil disobedience. Chinese who were already present when Exclusion passed were allowed to stay. They could sponsor their children as immigrants under an exception to the act. So they brought in "paper sons," men who claimed falsely to be their descendants. Chinese communities also organized themselves to protest their exclusion through politics and lawsuits. The Wong case was only one example. What is most remarkable about the period of Chinese Exclusion is that is was then that birthright citizenship emerged as a constitutional doctrine. Wong Kim Ark had sued to be re-admitted to the birthplace, after taking a trip to China . He argued that by virtue of his birth on its soil he was a citizen of the United States , even though his parents were racially barred from achieving that status. In opposing Wong, the federal government argued in its court briefs, "There certainly should be some honor and dignity in American citizenship that would be scared from the foul and corrupting taint of a debasing alienage." The Solicitor General asked, "Are Chinese children born in this country to share with the descendants of the patriots of the American Revolution to exalted qualification of being eligible to the Presidency of the nation?" He answered, "If so, then verily there has been a most degenerate departure from the patriotic ideals of our forefathers; and surely in that case American citizenship is not worth having." Rejecting these racial arguments, the Court based its ruling on the Fourteenth Amendment. That provision of the Constitution is familiar as the source of "equal protection of the laws." The Court gave a literal interpretation to its opening lines, that "all persons born or naturalized in the United States , and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." By doing so, the Supreme Court united racial minority groups. For the Fourteenth Amendment had been passed to overturn the notorious 1857 Supreme Court decision in the Dred Scott case, which declared that blacks were not citizens. Thus, because African Americans were citizens, Asian immigrants could be citizens as well – and vice versa. Today’s debate over birthright citizenship brings the connection full circle. Opponents of birthright citizenship have focused on Latino immigrants. They have said that Mexican women wait until they are about to go into labor, and then cross the border to have American children, supposedly to gain government entitlements. This spectacular racial stereotype is the symbolic sister to the "welfare queen" in the Eighties – the African American single woman who has children solely to obtain public benefits. With anxieties about immigration, some demagogues have renewed calls for a racial vision of United States citizenship. They forthright in their claim that this is a white (and Christian) nation by heritage. Other writers have tried to pit communities of color against one another, suggesting that African Americans should oppose immigration, and immigrants should oppose affirmative action. Yet what African Americans, Asian Americans, Latinos, and everyone else should see through Wong Kim Ark is the citizenship status we enjoy depends on the citizenship of others. Abolishing birthright citizenship would ensure inherited privilege: an individual would be bound by the status of their parents. I believe that birthright citizenship guarantees our most basic right, to remain in the land of our origin. It signals both that we belong to the nation and that the nation belongs to us. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047765) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 12:06 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: "For All Us Laundrymen," 5/13/02 Asianweek.com: "For All Us Laundrymen," by Emil Guillermo (emil@amok.com) Happy Asian Pacific American Heritage Month! I haven’t seen any Hallmark cards yet, but you can clip this column out, and send it to an APA. As far as I’m concerned, APA Heritage couldn’t have come at a better time. These days it seems we are inundated with news that needs historical context. Unfortunately, many in our community - a mixture of recent immigrants and the young clueless – don’t seem to know enough about the past to understand the present. One prime example: those darn Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirts. You can pick up materials for the national boycott at www.boycottaf.com. Or you can merely go by the stores and let them know that since your taste does not include racist images, you’re shopping elsewhere. If that sounds like you, you’ve passed the test: you’re sane enough to take on the 21st century. It’s the other folks around you I’m concerned about, the ones who are wondering how many more "Wong Brothers Laundry" shirts in different colors they can add to their collection. If you are one of those who have stood by and scratched your head and asked, "What’s the big deal?" or said aloud, "Chill out, all you humorless PC, 60s leftovers, then this column is for you. The Professor would like to inject a massive dose of history. The most offensive Abercrombie T-shirt featured two smiling, slant-eyed gents (short, naturally) wearing pointy-type bamboo rice paddy hats, presumably the proprietors of "Wong Brothers Laundry Service," standing by their motto, "Two Wongs Can Make it White." Why is that offensive? It’s the laundryman image. In Chinese American history, the laundryman is about as seminal as it gets. While most Chinese were in California, about 30% of those in the 1870s were in Idaho, Montana and Nevada looking for gold. You may not think of Butte, Mont., as a bustling Chinatown, but in 1880 Butte was like a big-sky version of San Francisco. The Chinese population comprised 21.1% of the town, mostly all men, looking for their fortunes. But here’s why Chinese cowboys didn’t become a hallmark of the far West: In 1883, the Montana Territorial Supreme Court declared all mining claims by aliens like the Chinese to be void. In the wake of that discrimination, the Chinese men scrambled for work. Since there were few women, they were forced to turn to "women’s work," hiring themselves as domestic servants or setting up shop as cooks, tailors and laundrymen. It’s all that society allowed for them. Making fun of the laundryman is like making fun of slaves. According to Lan Cao and Himelee Novas’ book Everything You Need to Know About Asian American History, by 1905 Butte had 32 Chinese laundries. In time the trend spread to the point where 25% of all employed Chinese men worked in a laundry. By 1890 in California, 69% of all laundrymen were Chinese. But Emil, you ask, shouldn’t we celebrate the entrepreneurial resourcefulness of these laundry workers? Sure. But look what happened in San Francisco of all places. Here’s a fact that’s hard to believe, but in the late 1800s it was fairly common for people in our city to send out their laundry to Honolulu or Canton! That’s not exactly express service. Chinese laundryman came to San Francisco to fill the need. But since there were so many of them, the city actually passed discriminatory ordinances intended to "drive (the Chinese) to other states." Cao and Novas’ book tells how the Laundry Ordinance set up outrageous licensing fees that were aimed to put the Chinese out of business. If you used a horse in your delivery, you paid a lower fee. If you didn’t use a horse, you paid a fee that was nearly 800 percent higher. Guess who didn’t use horses? Back in Butte, the Chinese laundries and other small businesses came up against an organized boycott by labor unions and the local chamber of commerce that attempted to destroy their presence. The Chinese actually hired a well-known white attorney, former U.S. Senator Colonel Wilbur Fisk Sanders, to sue the unions. The Chinese won, and the laundrymen were considered one of the first civil rights protestors in APA history. You don’t mess with the Chinese laundryman image. When Abercrombie & Fitch put out that shirt, it was not exactly honoring APA civil rights pioneers. The other recent story that beckons history is the California Department of Insurance’s record of the coolie trade. It was dwarfed by the major story that insurance companies in the 19th century actually bought insurance policies on the lives of black slaves. Check out their website at www.insurance.ca.gov. The coolie part is but a footnote, but there it is. Manhattan Life provided a policy "that insured shippers for their cargo of 700 Chinese coolies on a journey from China in 1854." If you ever wanted historical proof of your objectification, there it is. Chinese people were insured like a Ming vase. But not considered as pretty. Let me finish by saying the most surprising reactions I’ve received from the Abercrombie story have indeed been from Asians who actually sent me e-mails cussing me out in Chinese. One even suggested that as an APA of Filipino descent, I was hardly Asian, since the Philippines is comprised of islands, making me an "islander." What a load of chicken poop. My friends, in America, Asian is Asian - immigrant or native born. We may define ourselves proudly by ethnicity, but we live in a society that continues to define us by history. Ethnicity is important, but we have blood and geographic ties to a much larger commonality. We may act like we’re in separate rooms in a big hotel, but when you come out of them, you’d have to be a blind man to not understand that we’re in this together. That’s why we celebrate Asian Pacific American Heritage Month. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2047818) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 5:00 PM Author: Nudist lettuce chad wow, this thread is still "active". (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2049693) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 7:18 PM Author: bossy vivacious trailer park prole Has there ever been a race/AA related thread on this board that has gotten less than 100 posts? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2050635) |
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Date: February 2nd, 2005 9:15 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: Asian Ams - "The New Calculus of Diversity on Campus," 2/2/03 New York Times: "The New Calculus of Diversity on Campus," By Jacques Steinberg At public universities in California and Texas, the end of affirmative action in admissions has benefited one minority: Asian-Americans. And if the Supreme Court decides later this year to limit or eliminate race-conscious admissions at the University of Michigan, Asian- Americans stand to gain far more than any other group, at least in proportion to their numbers in the general population. Their experience in the admissions process provides yet another prism through which to view the affirmative action debate. As things stand now, a relatively low percentage of Asian-American students are admitted to many top private and public institutions, nearly all of which practice affirmative action, compared with the high numbers of the arguably qualified among them. But if the Supreme Court phases out race-conscious admissions, the number of Asian-American students can be expected to soar, at the expense of other groups, even whites. The statistics in California and Texas give ammunition to critics of affirmative action who say that some applicants, primarily white or Asian-American, are being rejected in favor of blacks and Hispanics who may not be as accomplished, at least as measured by standardized-test scores and grade-point averages. But the same statistics also provide ammunition to those who support race-conscious admissions and who argue that unless colleges give special attention to black and Hispanic applicants, whites and Asians could lay claim to all but a handful of the spots on some campuses. To gain a sense of how the composition of a student body can shift, consider the University of Texas at Austin. After a federal court in 1996 barred the University of Texas from practicing affirmative action, the state began offering admission to all high school students ranked in the top 10% of their classes. Given the racial and economic segregation in the state's high schools, the assumption was that blacks and Hispanics would be given a fairer chance to enroll, without having to compete directly with whites who lived in richer districts. But as it turned out, the main beneficiaries were Asian-Americans. The percentage of freshmen entering the Austin campus who were Asian-American rose to 18% last fall, compared with 14% in the fall of 1995. Thus, almost one in five freshmen at the university's flagship school is Asian, in a state where only about three of 100 residents are. As the admission rate of Asian students rose, to 71% from 68% over that period, the admission rate of whites fell, by one percentage point to 66%. So did that of blacks, to 43% from 59%. Hispanics were admitted at a rate of 56% in 2002, down from 72% in 1995. They make up about a third of the state population but less than a fifth of the freshman class at Austin. Asked to explain the dynamic, Bruce Walker, the director of admissions at Austin, said, "Obviously they are the top students in their schools." "Any state that goes to a percent plan and has a significant number of Asians will discover that Asians will be the ones who will benefit most," he added. In California, where Asians make up 11% of the general population, the gains were also striking after the state ended traditional affirmative action in the late 1990's and adopted a system similar to that of Texas. At Berkeley, the percentage of the freshman class that was Asian-American rose 6 percentage points, to 45%, in 2001. Over the same period, the percentage of the class that was black fell by three percentage points, to 4%; the percentage that was white dropped by one percentage point, to 29%; and the percentage that was Hispanic fell by six percentage points, to 11%. Contrast that with the experience of the University of Michigan Law School, which practices race-conscious admissions in a typical way, with admissions officers considering applicants' test scores and grades, as well as their backgrounds. Along with the undergraduate program, which uses a more formulaic approach that awards extra points to a black or Hispanic applicant, the law school is a defendant in the lawsuits being heard by the Supreme Court. When, for example, it assembled its class for the fall of 1999, the law school accepted only one of the 61 Asian-Americans, or 2%, who were ranked in the middle range of the applicant pool, as defined by their grades and test scores, according to court filings. The admission rate for whites with similar grades and scores was 3%. But among black applicants with similar transcripts, 22 out of 27, or 81%, were offered admission. Michigan, like other selective colleges, defends the lift given to black applicants, as well as to Hispanics, for two main reasons: to level the playing field for what it calls underrepresented minorities, who might not have the educational advantages of many whites and Asians, and to enhance the educational experience of all students by immersing them in a diverse environment. Though supportive of affirmative action for black and Hispanic applicants in particular, Evelyn Hu-DeHart, a professor of history and ethnic studies at Brown, said she took offense at the perception that there might be a threshold for how many Asians on a campus was too many. "I'll tell you what is discriminatory in the case of Texas," said Ms. Hu-DeHart, who emigrated from China in the 1960's. "They don't say whites are overrepresented. They're pitting Asian-Americans against blacks and Latinos by saying Asian-Americans are taking your place." She added: "Let Asians compete freely with white students."
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2051294) |
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Date: February 3rd, 2005 5:06 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha And this thread goes on for another 100 posts. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2054374) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 12:01 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha The "Reality of Admissions"
Click on:
"If you give me a Hispanic kid with a 1,350 (SATs), I can get that kid into every Ivy League college, or an African-American kid with 1,380 to 1,400,'' Shaw said. "But give me an upper-middle-class Caucasian or Asian with a 1,600, and I can't guarantee anything."
And in reference to Asian American applicants...
Still, because they are in such a highly competitive subgroup, they are admitted to the Ivies at a lower rate than other groups, with about one in every 15 gaining entry compared with an average of one in 10, Shaw said.
The glut of A-students presents a dilemma for top-tier universities that want their classes to mirror the broader society. Such institutions are more likely to "attribute a higher degree of importance to a student's race or ethnicity," according to a soon-to-be-released report from the National Association for College Admissions Counseling.
Shaw and others say the system can work against individuals in a highly competitive pool like Asians. There are also complaints that Asians are counted as minorities by colleges but don't receive minority preferences at many top-tier schools. Others balk at an analysis that views admissions as a competition among minorities - that blacks and Latinos take what otherwise would be places occupied by Asians. They note that whites remain the majority at most selective colleges.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2059780) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 12:07 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: Re; Anti- Asian American racist quotas in the Ivies For the complete article click on:
The secret world of college admissions Sunday, January 30, 2005
By PATRICIA ALEX STAFF WRITER
Forget "The Apprentice." For real competition, check out "The Applicant" - a contest in which high-achieving Asian kids from New Jersey's moneyed suburbs jockey for the Ivy League.
Consider the case of a Chinese-American girl at Holmdel High School. Her grades and test scores were top-notch, she ran cross-country and she was an accomplished pianist. Still, her prospects seemed uncertain.
The problem: her all-too-familiar profile.
She didn't, and couldn't, stand out among her peers. She ranked in the top 20 percent in the highly competitive school where nearly a fifth of the students are Asian.
"We needed to get her away from the other Asian kids,'' said Robert Shaw, a private college consultant hired by the girl's family.
Shaw advised bold steps: The family got a place in Keyport, a blue-collar town near their home, and the girl transferred to the local high school. There she was a standout: The only Asian kid in the school, she was valedictorian for the Class of 2004.
Next came an extracurricular makeover, one a bit out of character for a Chinese-American girl, said Shaw. "We suggested some outrageous activities, like Miss Teen New Jersey,'' where she won a talent competition playing piano.
"We had to create a contrarian profile,'' Shaw said. "We put her in places where she could stand out."
The girl was accepted to Yale and to Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where she is now a freshman.
Shaw helped the family play the admissions game. The ethnic, geographic and racial profiling that goes into assembling classes at the nation's top-tier colleges and universities is the worst-kept secret in American higher education.
"It's a very well-known thing but colleges don't want to talk about it,'' Shaw said. "It is certainly not a meritocracy, it's about being the right type of kid."
More than grades
With a huge pool of outstanding applicants, admissions at the top schools long ago stopped being about the numbers.
Good statistics alone are not the key to the Ivy League, said Willis J. "Lee" Stetson Jr., dean of admissions at the University of Pennsylvania. "In a really competitive pool, it's the extracurricular stuff that makes the difference."
Penn gets almost 19,000 applications for 2,400 seats a year, and the odds are no better at other top-tier schools. So how does a kid stand out in a large pool of students who have 1,500s on their SATs and 4.0 grade-point averages?
The children of alumni usually get preference, as do athletes. Admissions officers look for geographic balance as well, courting a mix of international and American students.
And, even as the nation's highest courts have ruled against racial and ethnic quotas, a de facto system remains in place as admissions officers strive for "balance" and the inclusion of so-called "underrepresented" populations, like blacks and Latinos.
"If you give me a Hispanic kid with a 1,350 (SATs), I can get that kid into every Ivy League college, or an African-American kid with 1,380 to 1,400,'' Shaw said. "But give me an upper-middle-class Caucasian or Asian with a 1,600, and I can't guarantee anything."
Recently, an Asian client of Shaw's from suburban Philadelphia got "wait-listed" at Yale despite a 1,600 SAT score and a 4.1 grade point average.
Shaw, a partner in the Long Island-based Ivy Success, honed his pragmatism while working in the admissions office at Penn. He recently changed his name from Hsueh to make it easier to pronounce, he said, but allows that a less Asian-sounding name may be an advantage when his young daughters reach college age.
A 'hidden agenda'
The schools deny quotas exist. On its Web site, Princeton University says: "We do not have a profile of the ideal applicant, nor do we map out a checklist of all the particular 'types' of students we plan to admit in a given year." Asians make up 13 percent of the Princeton enrollment.
Lauren Robinson-Brown, Princeton's director of communications, said admissions staffers consider all applications without "criteria such as ethnicity or geographic region."
But admissions counselors and parents who've been through the process say they know differently. "I'm not saying that colleges have racial quotas, but I imagine that most schools want representation of different cultural and ethnic groups,'' said Jonni Sayres, a counselor in Englewood and Teaneck.
Bev Taylor, director of the Ivy Coach on Long Island, is more blunt. "Colleges have a hidden agenda. They are not going to say this,'' she said. "They look for diversity and unless you know the culture of the school, you are not going to know what's diverse."
A bulge in the college-age population has made admission harder for everyone, said Stetson of Penn, which just filled almost half its incoming freshman class through early admission.
Although less than 4 percent of the population, Asians make up about 14 percent of the Ivy League. And the numbers are even higher for schools located in cities, where Asians generally gravitate. At Penn, Asians make up almost 23 percent of the student body, 16 percent at Harvard.
Still, because they are in such a highly competitive subgroup, they are admitted to the Ivies at a lower rate than other groups, with about one in every 15 gaining entry compared with an average of one in 10, Shaw said.
As a group, Asians score the highest on standardized tests - a testament to a cultural emphasis on scholarship - and generally have high grade-point averages.
When California eliminated racial preferences - set-asides for underrepresented groups - Asian enrollment skyrocketed in the venerable University of California system. Although Asians are 13 percent of the state's population, they make up 42 percent of students of the campus at Berkeley, 38 percent at Los Angeles and 61 percent at Irvine.
Some counselors advise Asian students to apply to top-tier schools outside urban centers, such as Duke University in North Carolina or Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, where they will still be considered a minority.
"One of my biggest obligations as a counselor is to get across to the parents that they need to look at areas who will appreciate them more," said Sayres, the Teaneck counselor.
Politics of admission
The glut of A-students presents a dilemma for top-tier universities that want their classes to mirror the broader society. Such institutions are more likely to "attribute a higher degree of importance to a student's race or ethnicity," according to a soon-to-be-released report from the National Association for College Admissions Counseling.
Shaw and others say the system can work against individuals in a highly competitive pool like Asians. There are also complaints that Asians are counted as minorities by colleges but don't receive minority preferences at many top-tier schools. Others balk at an analysis that views admissions as a competition among minorities - that blacks and Latinos take what otherwise would be places occupied by Asians. They note that whites remain the majority at most selective colleges.
There is concern, as well, that almost 30 distinct groups are lumped together under the Asian rubric, from the fifth-generation Japanese-American to the entrepreneur from India to the poor Hmong farmer newly arrived stateside. Despite their variety, there is a belief that the bar is set higher for the entire ethnic group.
"The perception is that there are so many who are qualified that they have to be a little higher up on the ladder," said Lance Izumi, who studies education at the Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, a California think tank.
Shaw and others have no doubt that the perception is a reality when it comes to admissions. They worry that the trend is creating upper-limit quotas for Asians at the best schools, such as those imposed on Jews prior to World War II when they began to break into the Ivy League after decades of overt anti-Semitism.
The politics of admissions can be bewildering and disheartening, especially for parents. "They are very disappointed because they've done everything right,'' said Sayres. "For the Asian students, especially the Korean students, they lose faith if their child doesn't get into the Ivies. And it's just not possible anymore. There are too many kids and too few places."
E-mail: alex@northjersey.com
Copyright © 2005 North Jersey Media Group Inc. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2059824) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 11:02 AM Author: Arrogant address Subject: Good article. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2061209) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 11:31 AM Author: misanthropic doctorate sex offender "The problem: her all-too-familiar profile."
Enough said. Hero, I suggest you read the post where someone mentioned about the Law of Diminishing Returns. If you have taken economics, you will know what that means. When you have SO MANY students with the same profile (Asians are notorious for this), colleges weed them out because having too many of the same students with the same courses and extracurrilars does nothing for the image and curriculum of the school especially if they're pro-AA.
How do you think schools would feel if they accepted all Asian-American applicants with high test scores but they concentrated heavily in the sciences, economics and engineering? What about the other departments in liberal arts or professional arenas like journalism? They need student enrollment which is associated with funding and faculty hiring too. If schools want a "diverse" campus, they want exceptional and unique students. They have the right to "cap" students to meet their departments' needs.
And for those who are against whites being the majority at top-tier private schools: these schools reflect the geography of the United States and the applicant pool for that particular university. They will (and certainly not their predominately white alumni) never have predominately Asian population unless there is a massive shift in the racial/ethnic geography in the United States in the near future. Sorry to burst your bubble, hero, but get a life.
You have become the new XOXO troll. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2061323) |
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Date: February 4th, 2005 12:12 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: From hero in reply to ltorivia485 Date: February 4th, 2005 11:38 AM Author: hero
>> How do you think schools would feel if they accepted all Asian-American applicants with high test scores but they concentrated heavily in the sciences, economics and engineering? What about the other departments in liberal arts or professional arenas like journalism? They need student enrollment which is associated with funding and faculty hiring too. If schools want a "diverse" campus, they want exceptional and unique students. They have the right to "cap" students to meet their departments' needs. <<
That's BULLSHIT.
UC Berkeley, without racial quotas or "caps", is the one of the most diverse and intellectually stimulating schools in the world, in addition to be the highest university in the world according to WORLD RANKINGS, simply because it has no racial quotas, with Asian Americans at 45%, studying and and excelling in every subject and field of study at Berkeley, including Journalism, English Literature and Criticism, all the Humanities, and ALL the liberal arts. Stop with your FUCKING RACIST stereotypes of Asian American. Asian Americans, despite RACSIT Quotas, are 10% of America's top 25 law schools, including Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and the U.of Chicago. Without trhe RACIST anti-Asian American quotas, they are 25% to 30% of Berkeley's and UCLA's law school. Asian Americans EXCELL in EVERY FIELD of study including the professional schools of journalism, education, divinity, business, law, architecture, medicine and denistry, in addition to engineering.
(Elite school needs to give boost to poor Afro American)
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Date: February 4th, 2005 11:45 AM Author: hero
>> And for those who are against whites being the majority at top-tier private schools: these schools reflect the geography of the United States and the applicant pool for that particular university. They will (and certainly not their predominately white alumni) never have predominately Asian population unless there is a massive shift in the racial/ethnic geography in the United States in the near future. Sorry to burst your bubble, hero, but get a life. <<
I am not against any group being the "majority group" in elite colleges and the whites are. So what? You are the one playing the race card, because WITHOUT the race card, you would never have been admitted to your Northwestern, with lowered standards and your privileged middle to upper class background from college educated parents, you hypocrite!! You are the one twisting and turning. I am for a race-blind and ethnic group blind admissions process, using any standards of admissions or criteria these elite schools deem necessary, BUT LEAVE RACE OUT OF IT.
REAL DIVERSITY TRANSCENDS RACIAL DIVERSITY.
I DON'T CARE IF HARVARD OR BERKELEY IS 80% BLACK, OR 90% WHITE OR 50% ASIAN AMERICAN, AS LONG AS RACE IS NOT USED IN ADMISSIONS.
I don't want to know the race of the applicant and the adcom should not either. That's the point. Diversirty, TRUE Diversity, will be achieved.
Hello, "geographic quotas" were synomynous with the "Jewish quota" at Yale and in the Ivies in the past when Jews lived mainly in NYC and the eastern cities.
So you are in favcor of the racist anti- Asian American quotas. A racist would be in favor of this quota.
>> You have become the new XOXO troll. <<
I have not been on long enough to replace the true real racist troll, who speaks out of ignorance and racist stereotypes against Asian Americans, and not "Chinese immigrants", whom you compared all stellar Asian Americans applicants to in the Ivies.
Dumb and Stupid!!
(Elite school needs to give boost to poor Afro American)
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2061545) |
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Date: February 6th, 2005 10:37 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Trickmaster, read this thread. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2074146) |
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Date: February 7th, 2005 11:01 PM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha bump (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2085050) |
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Date: February 11th, 2005 2:38 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Subject: Trickster is lost for words (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2107549) |
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Date: February 12th, 2005 11:01 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Jay Mathews of the Washington Post, Oct. 12, 2004 said,
[But there is one part of his argument, a reference to a sad era in American history, that is hard to ignore. Many selective colleges before World War II had quotas on Jews. They turned down many brilliant applicants in favor of non-Jewish prep school students with lesser records. They didn't call this striving for diversity, but it was a perverse form of affirmative action, and it left a bitter taste for decades.]
[Chin calculates that with those quotas gone, about a third of Harvard undergraduates are Jews, who make up about 3 percent of the U.S. population. About 17 percent of Harvard undergraduates are Asians, who make up about 4 percent of the population. Since the percentage of Asian Americans at schools of comparable quality that do not practice affirmative action are much higher -- 40 percent at Berkeley, 50 percent at selective New York high schools such as Stuyvesant -- Chin says the Asian American percentage at Harvard and other Ivies would go up significantly if the rules were changed.]
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2114926) |
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Date: February 13th, 2005 9:19 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha ltorivia485
Read my last post. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2120862) |
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Date: February 16th, 2005 8:12 AM Author: Frisky sneaky criminal alpha Food for thought. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=129510&forum_id=2#2143837) |