All professional jobs are stressful. Most don't pay anywhere near what biglawyers make.

The work actually isn't that stressful either. No pressure to bring in business until you're a higher level associate. You're basically getting paid 200-300k to do homework assignments.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39020561)

you just summarized the entire existence of xoxohth.com

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39020582)

However, that doesn’t mean it isn’t stressful. It is often very stressful.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39020591)

"OMG I got an email REEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024363)

A top firm practice in a group like M&A or PE is extremely stressful and hard.

Remember what it was like taking an exam in school? That's V5 every single day, multiple times a day. Basically everything you do is a quiz or exam and you're expected to get an A every time. Let me illustrate:

1) Negotiations with X target and their lawyers, with your Y PE client. You've spent the last 2 days marking up the document and advising the client (who are sophisticated and can tell if you don't know what you're talking about) on what you think you can get away with. You're finally in the conference room. The target's lawyers are going to fight everything you say, and your client is staring at you and ready to move on to the next Vault firm if you can't extract from the target the terms that they want. There's minor crap you have to worry about like talking a 5% indemnity cap up to 100% and coming up with a good justification, or trying to turn the locked-box into some form of working capital adjustment. In the back of your mind you know you'll probably just end up at "to be further discussed" and you'll spend the rest of the day coming up with alternative language that you can compromise on, and then you'll have to have the same discussions and fight over the same issues with the client and the counterparty again.

All the while, your phone is blowing up with Z client asking when you're available for a call to discuss the purchase agreement on their deal, A junior asking you to review their work, B partner asking you to help out on their deal, C counterparty chasing you for comments to their draft and D wife asking if you're free for dinner on Thursday with her parents.

2) A very experienced M&A client asks you to mark-up 3 documents by tomorrow. You have to spot all the right issues, get specialist input, manage the team and manage your real-life, all under extreme time-constraints and try not to make any stupid mistakes. You also have a call with lawyers in another country so you'll be in the office late due to time zone differences, and then you have to also write about 20 emails answering random questions about the deals you are currently working on or coordinating the work with your team. You have to take a dump, haven't had lunch yet (it's 4pm) and could use some more coffee. Good luck.

1 and 2 happen every single day.

I'm not saying this stuff is glamorous, important or even "normal." But for you all to sit there and assume that biglaw = quietly sitting behind a desk and doing a half-assed job drafting one contract in a bubble, that's ludicrous. At the top-end of biglaw it's extremely demanding and the standards are very high.

If there are any other M&A masterminds here, I think you can all relate to actually "starting your day" at 6pm after you are done with hours-long conference calls or meetings, and staring at the pile of work you have to do by the next morning.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024432)

Realistically, no client will change firms.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024446)

And let's get real, even outside of M&A there's a lot of really bad practice groups. Bankruptcy/restrucring, credit, etc., can all be brutal.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024515)

Maybe this doesn't apply to junior associates who work with a variety of partners (which would explain your ignorance), but at least at the mid/senior level you are dependent on just a couple of partners for all of your work.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39029200)

In negotiations case law comes up all the freaking time when dealing with validity or enforceability of bargaining positions and you have to know that shit. Examples:

-We don't want to be subject to good faith requirements, so let's get out of New York law. Give us some suggestions.

-Wait what's the caselaw on the enforceability of termination fees in New York?

-I don't like this liquidated damages provision, seems like it would be unenforceable in Delaware. Thoughts?

-Which governing law do you propose that would permit this non-solicitation clause?

-We think this put option premium would be enforceable, do you disagree?

And when you negotiate you are often asked on the spot to illustrate your proposed wording so you need to be able to think quickly on your feet and come up with something intelligent that works and addresses the concern. I'm no genius, but I'm HYP + HYS and I still find my job really fing hard on a daily basis.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024468)

"guys, it's hard. the people I'm competing against call me out on the stuff I say" as if this wasn't expected

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024473)

Yes, legal docs are more complicated that the forms that compliance monkeys fill out, but you're fooling yourself if you think your work product is inherently difficult. People burn out of biglaw because they don't actually give a shit about the substance in the documents. They don't take notes about what the market is on the indemnities sections. That's the real reason why you made it.

The difference between you and burnouts is that you actually gave a shit; you were the autist who spent countless hours mastering purchase agreements, learning how Section 9.2 interacts with 7.6. That doesn't make you smart or better than them. In fact, as someone who thinks that there's more to life than work and sees law as just a means to an end, I would say you're the dumb one. You'll wake up one day and realize that you wasted decades on mastering agreements that nobody gives a shit about other than you.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39029478)

But don't fool yourself. I don't think any of this stuff is important or necessary for a functional society. But I know the rules and I made the choice to play by the rules. I have no delusions or self-importance regarding not making any meaningless typos or having a sloppy draft. In the end, most of it will not matter one bit and you know what? I don't give a shit whether it matters or not. I know what the clients want and what my firm wants and I'm willing to put out for it.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39032692)

You give them an SPA to markup by tomorrow, and so they'll read through clauses like the indemnification clause and not even think to consider enforceability under the governing law.

I've worked with many midlevels and I've never gotten a markup back where they've identified a valid enforceability concern (other than the really basic stuff like non-solicits or termination fees). They'll markup a Delaware document like a New York deal, or a New York document like a Delaware deal.

Now if you pose the question like a quiz format, i.e., "is this enforceable" then they'll probably be able to do some quick research and come back with an answer, but that's completely different from being able to know that this is an issue and have the answer ready during face to face negotiations where you cannot say "let me get back to you."

To give you another example - let's say I've proposed a 50% indemnity cap on a New York governed law document. You think it's high. How are you going to push back? Say "it's not market practice?" Lol I will run a train through you if you say that. "Sell me on why you think 5% is more appropriate than 10% or 20% or 50% i.e., how you're not just picking an arbitrary number, go." Watches you flail in front of your client like an idiot.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39056236)

A lot of people give up on that dream or walk away eventually, but there are thousands of people who stay in the game each year.

How we choose to live our lives is none of your concern. We're all fertilizing in a few years anyways so who gives a crap.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39029215)

My goal is to be retired at age 50 - young enough to still enjoy travel and my hobbies.

Because I figured out how to stay in Biglaw, I'm saving several hundred $$$ every year now after taxes. I live in a fairly modest house (bought for a bit under $ 1 million, worth a lot more now), have another home of around the same value that I am renting out and no debt. I don't spend $$$ on useless crap or models/bottles and live pretty low-key so I won't have to deal with any abrupt changes in my lifestyle if I leave biglaw.

Maybe I'm a top 10% outcome in biglaw or so, who knows. But yeah, call me whatever you want, I worked really hard and I'm not ashamed of it.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39040559)

So I have to make my own moves for now. Only plus of family money is I don't have to worry about saving for retirement.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39045854)

The constant fire drills, quick turn around times, and sheer amount of work made biglaw the hardest job I've ever had....by far.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024474)

even as a mediocre associate, it's pretty stressful until u gain enough passive income / get an exit op so u can recognize it all for the flame that it is

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024475)

Working long hours isn't necessarily the issue - a lot of people can work long hours. It's the constant fire drills and sheer amount of work that make people crazy.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024485)

i'm at a "high-stress" inhouse job and the most stressful day here has still been chiller than pretty much every day i spent in biglaw

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024501)

you know it's unsustainable and that they're eventually going to go nuts and it's just a matter of time

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024507)

Thank God I didn't end up in biglaw

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024999)

Don't give me this crap about "oh it's assholes like you". It's like NFL players bitching about concussions. Yeah stfu you weren't complaining when you were being paid.

You want to play the game, then fucking play and stop bitching about the rules.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39029208)

Have you ever heard the saying, "Don't be a victim of your own success"? Those "really good associates" were the nerds in school who thought the perfect way to exist was having all the right answers, the perfect test scores, the perfect LSAT. The "really good associates" get crushed in big law because people who scored lower than them on those tests, but are predators, can easily spot the suckers. They know these suckers are programmed to treat every assignment and task they receive as if it's the LSAT or the final exam and their life depends on it. These suckers get eaten up. They're perfectly trained and obedient dogs trying to run with the wolf pack without realizing it. Because the suckers are "really good", the work keeps piling on, day in and day out. Every day the wolves keep tightening the collar, demanding more as they tug the leash.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024529)

The traits that made them a "good associate" in the first-place brought them to a very high paying job, which sucked, but at least they had the chance to make some real $$.

-some of them will go to really good in-house jobs

-some of them will make equity partner and make $$$$

-some of them will make partner in midlaw and make $

-some of them will invariable flame out, but hey, they are probably better off in the long-run than if they just got some random dead-end corporate job in Kansas

Let's be real here. We're not talking about some trust-fund babies who passed up some glamorous job elsewhere to do biglaw. It's the best that most of us could get.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39024551)

I'm not trying to justify my job. It sucks on many counts. I also make a lot of money and am financially secure. I think I'll take home $700K this year. Not as much as others, perhaps yourself or CSLG, but worth putting up with the BS. Some of my LS friends still in biglaw are now making 7 figures. We bitch about the same stuff we used to bitch about (cancelled plans, business trips to crap locations, etc.) but we all live in really nice homes, have nice cars, families are very well taken care of, etc. None of us are old enough yet where we're dealing with ruined marraiges or estranged kids, so who knows what we'll look like 5-10 years from now, but for now things are good.

But yeah, I'm spending this weekend marking up a prospectus and I'm not even a securities lawyer lol! It sucks and I'd rather be doing something else.

p.s. Let's be honest - you're only enjoying the life you are now BECAUSE of biglaw. Biglaw was a great result for you, and I'm sure you are benefitting daily from what you learned there so I'm not sure why the hate.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39029211)

I don’t hate on biglaw, I just hate on those who inevitably last in biglaw and make it essentially intolerable for anybody normal to survive. My plan was never to stay in biglaw precisely because it would be fundamentally incompatible with having a normal family life. Any nothing I learned in biglaw had any relevance to what I do now (and thank god for that since I was doing securities shitttigation).

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39043179)

Obviously it's nothing like that on a day to day basis or no one would do it. He acts like you are permanently getting 2-3 hours of sleep a night and you have one 15 period at the end of the day when you can take a shit and eat your one meal per day. What a complete daggot

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39041626)

Do the math and try to figure out what 300 hours in one month feels like (it's roughly 75 hours billed a week). Now imagine doing that 4 weeks in a row, times 3.

When it's bad, it's really bad. But when it's good, it's really good. See the trend there? Unpredictability, which also really adds to the stress.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39045864)

You need to constantly create incentives in this job because it sucks so bad. Sort of like how if we removed exams from school, nobody but the biggest of the nerds would study at all.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4369372&forum_id=2#39045884)