\
  The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
BackRefresh Options Airdrop

Max IQ to believe in "dualism"

Even for things like interactionist dualism and epiphenomena...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
Dualism is the philosophical theory that reality consists of...
bistre razzle market pistol
  07/22/26
Yeah Descartes was a genius but we have come a long way sinc...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
idk it's fucking stupid though, cr
the White jensen huang
  07/22/26
I think the biggest error they make is turning an explanator...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
i can't, my qualia
the White jensen huang
  07/22/26
Yeah I think the lowest IQ part is when you ask someone &quo...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
this is a straw man reading of the actual position
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Nah. Either qualia causally affect reports, memory, and beha...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
look up global workspace theory you fucking twat
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
GWT makes my point! It explains how these things become avai...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
go talk to an LLM dumbass
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
agreed
the White jensen huang
  07/22/26
...
sickened national security agency
  07/22/26
there are no hidden variables. mediocre iq dorks like to thi...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Calling two substances obvious does not explain how the seco...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
the explanation is Magic (this is what they actually believe...
the White jensen huang
  07/22/26
it doesn't matter. i don't have to explain to universe to de...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
If res cogitans affects brains, speech, memory, or behavior,...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
no one takes the causal closure of the physical seriously
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
That is false, but also irrelevant. Suppose physical cau...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
i dont need to specify the interaction. very few philosopher...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Most philosophers rejecting reductive physicalism does not i...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
nonreductive physicalism is basically dualism. they're ident...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
No. Nonreductive physicalism says mental properties are whol...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
that's not even right. many NRP's say higher emergent layers...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Downward causation does not make it substance dualism. A non...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
you dont have a grasp of the fundamentals
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Then identify the fundamental distinction I missed
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
im good
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
substance dualism and property dualism are both “duali...
Onyx blood rage
  07/22/26
Yes, both are called dualism. The dispute is whether nonredu...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
youre a total retard. no one is a substance dualist anymore....
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Then stop appealing to labels and state your own position. A...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
no. the mainstream position is NRP and its basically dualism...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
That is a SOCIOLOGICAL claim. I'm not asking what is mainstr...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
if you think ur stupid ass is gonna solve philosophy of mind...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
Who said I was going to “solve philosophy of mind&rdqu...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
there is essentially no disagreement on the major facts. if ...
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/22/26
The fuck is the point of even poasting here if you aren't in...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
yeah because if physicalism is true they'd be out of a job
the White jensen huang
  07/22/26
I think midwits find it compelling to believe in a magic non...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
this shit uses sufficiently technical and opaque language th...
Big immigrant
  07/22/26
there are highly technical highly interesting issues involvi...
Onyx blood rage
  07/22/26
Thought this would be about metaphysical dualism
lex
  07/22/26
cr thought this would be the final takedown of Consuela and ...
Fiercely-loyal Swashbuckling School Pocket Flask
  07/23/26
It doesn't require you to count higher than 2
cheese-eating marketing idea
  07/22/26
...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
~120
wonderful sneaky criminal indian lodge
  07/22/26
...
bateful trump supporter
  07/22/26
i would've said 110 or 120. but if there's a creator who ha...
Demanding Cruise Ship Affirmative Action
  07/22/26
Why would you need a magic non-physical layer to have free w...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
if you think you don't need an additional layer, could you p...
Demanding Cruise Ship Affirmative Action
  07/23/26
Free will doesn't require an uncaused or nonphysical mind. I...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
How is freshman year of college
yellow lodge
  07/23/26
18000
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
cr
Demanding Cruise Ship Affirmative Action
  07/23/26
...
Beta Lavender Public Bath Antidepressant Drug
  07/23/26
Whoahh you still poast here?
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
always been here. always will be
Beta Lavender Public Bath Antidepressant Drug
  07/23/26
1800000
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
260+
Heady Twisted Elastic Band Pisswyrm
  07/23/26
The wackiest aspect of this thread is that you adhere to red...
grizzly elite set sandwich
  07/23/26
As he points out, one can have "free will" within ...
the White jensen huang
  07/23/26
You can be a reductive materialist and have a stronger accou...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's moot anyway because...
the White jensen huang
  07/23/26
Empirically confirmed physics proves that the universe is de...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
Relativity alone makes the universe deterministic, Champ
the White jensen huang
  07/23/26
That's false. Special relativity straightforwardly does not....
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
I never said I was a reductive materialist. I believe in one...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
"Genuinely" Sup Claude
lex
  07/23/26
Oh come on. I had never even heard about that one before, bu...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
Where is free will coming from in physicalism? I don't want...
grizzly elite set sandwich
  07/23/26
From the person. My reasons, values, memories, and deliberat...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
Your awareness of a deliberation shouldn’t be confused...
grizzly elite set sandwich
  07/23/26
Agreed that merely noticing a thought does not mean I freely...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
Where is this agency coming from? Who or what is the actual ...
grizzly elite set sandwich
  07/23/26
Hmmm... yeah one thing I have to say is that I think physica...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
Physicalism is appealing because it doesn't add in any extra...
grizzly elite set sandwich
  07/23/26
Yeah I have thought about that a lot (I agree with you regar...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
I agree that there is ample room for free will to exist; I w...
grizzly elite set sandwich
  07/23/26
I agree with you, good subthread, ty both. I think some p...
wine office
  07/23/26
...
the White jensen huang
  07/23/26
...
Naked Field Shitlib
  07/23/26
I am not 100% sure of what "dualism" really means ...
Richard Ames
  07/23/26
philosophy is incredibly low iq these days
Glittery hyperactive factory reset button potus
  07/23/26
It's getting higher iq in the sense that people are realizin...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26
Fun thread with incredible traction for (xo 202
Metaphysics Is Solved
  07/23/26
...
Naked Field Shitlib
  07/23/26
https://x.com/i/status/2080405089722798105
Hilarious boyish heaven
  07/23/26
...
bateful trump supporter
  07/23/26


Poast new message in this thread



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:42 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Even for things like interactionist dualism and epiphenomenalism I'm pegging someone who believes in this at a max of somewhere in the mid-60s in terms of IQ. They survive empirical counterexamples in only the broadest sense as formally describable alternatives, but not as serious explanatory alternatives.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017807)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:12 PM
Author: bistre razzle market pistol

Dualism is the philosophical theory that reality consists of two fundamental, irreducible elements or principles. Depending on the context, it emphasizes the sharp distinction between independent or antagonistic sides, such as the material and the immaterial, or good and evil.

Mind-Body Dualism

In the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, mind-body dualism is the view that the mind (the mental realm) and the body (physical matter) are fundamentally distinct and both real.

Substance Dualism:

Most famously championed by René Descartes in the 17th century, this asserts that the mind and body are two completely different substances. The mind is an immaterial, thinking entity, while the body is a physical, spatially extended entity.

Property Dualism: This variation argues that there is only one physical substance, but it possesses two distinct fundamental properties: physical properties and mental properties.

Metaphysical and Religious Dualism

Beyond the mind, dualism applies to broader reality and theological concepts:

Cosmic Dualism: The belief that the universe is governed by two opposing, often antagonistic principles, such as Good and Evil, or Light and Darkness (prominent in ancient traditions like Zoroastrianism).Platonic Dualism: Traced back to Plato, it separates reality into the imperfect, changing material world and the perfect, unchanging realm of "Forms".

Psychological and Behavioral Dualism

In psychology and everyday reasoning, dualistic thinking involves reducing complex issues into simplistic binaries (e.g., us vs. them, rational vs. emotional). While it helps organize thoughts, it can also lead to oversimplification, polarization, and a lack of empathy.

Dualism directly contrasts with monism (the belief that reality is made of only one substance, like physicalism or idealism) and pluralism (the belief in many substances). For a comprehensive look at the arguments for and against this concept, explore the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017883)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:16 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Yeah Descartes was a genius but we have come a long way since the 17th century

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017897)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:43 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

idk it's fucking stupid though, cr

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017809)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:46 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

I think the biggest error they make is turning an explanatory or representational gap into an ontological gap, which is wildly low iq. Only reason these explanations survive at all is historical and cultural bias. Everytime I see the words "qualia" or "qualed" written in serious argument I basically burst out laughing.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017816)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:50 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

i can't, my qualia

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017833)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:53 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Yeah I think the lowest IQ part is when you ask someone "do qualia make any causal difference?". If no, then qualia cannot cause reports, memories, decisions, avoidance, learning, or beliefs about experience. If yes then they are physical unless you define "physical" by some weird criterion noone would accept.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017839)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:18 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

this is a straw man reading of the actual position

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017902)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:23 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Nah. Either qualia causally affect reports, memory, and behavior or they don't. If they do, explain why a law governed cause with physical effects is still “nonphysical.” If they don't then how could we know or report anything about them?

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017915)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:23 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

look up global workspace theory you fucking twat

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017916)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:26 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

GWT makes my point! It explains how these things become available through physical information becoming globally available. Either qualia are that physical workspace activity (in which case they are not nonphysical) or they are something extra, in which case the original causal dilemma remains.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017929)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:26 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

go talk to an LLM dumbass

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017930)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

agreed

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017933)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 10:09 PM
Author: sickened national security agency



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018206)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:54 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

there are no hidden variables. mediocre iq dorks like to think neutral monism is a high iq move. in reality it's just wishy washy bullshit. it's obvious there are 2 substances: res extensa and res cogitans

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017842)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:55 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Calling two substances obvious does not explain how the second one interacts with the first without either becoming physical or becoming causally irrelevant.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017846)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:58 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

the explanation is Magic (this is what they actually believe btw)

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017851)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 7:58 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

it doesn't matter. i don't have to explain to universe to demonstrate the alternatives are wrong

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017854)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:03 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

If res cogitans affects brains, speech, memory, or behavior, then it belongs to the law governed causal structure investigated by natural science. Calling it “nonphysical” needs a substantive criterion. If it has no physical effects, then it cannot explain why anyone reports, remembers, or forms beliefs about experience. Why would that demand an entire theory of the Universe? It is testing whether the proposed "second substance" can perform the role you assign to it without just being another natural variable or a causally idle appendage.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017870)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:04 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

no one takes the causal closure of the physical seriously

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017873)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:09 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

That is false, but also irrelevant.

Suppose physical causal closure is false and res cogitans affects the brain. Then specify the interaction. What physical states does it change, under what conditions, according to what regularities? And how could its contribution be distinguished from ordinary physical causes? Once it has systematic, detectable effects, it becomes part of the empirical causal ontology.

Rejecting causal closure only makes interaction logically available. It does not establish two substances, explain their boundary or solve the interaction problem.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017878)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:11 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

i dont need to specify the interaction. very few philosophers are reductive physicalists. it's an absurd position.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017882)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:14 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Most philosophers rejecting reductive physicalism does not imply Cartesian dualism. Nonreductive physicalism is an obvious alternative. And if your theory says two substances interact, the interaction is not an optional detail. Refusing to specify it does not defeat rival views.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017889)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:15 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

nonreductive physicalism is basically dualism. they're identical in basically every implication.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017893)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:19 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

No. Nonreductive physicalism says mental properties are wholly dependent on physical systems and cannot exist or vary independently of them. Substance dualism says a distinct mental substance can exist in principle apart from the body. That's a pretty big ontological difference despite them both being anti-reductionist if you consider the implications.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017904)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:22 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

that's not even right. many NRP's say higher emergent layers act downwards.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017914)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:28 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Downward causation does not make it substance dualism. A nonreductive physicalist can say organism-level mental states causally constrain lower level processes while still holding that those states are realized by, and cannot exist independently of the physical organism.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017935)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:28 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

you dont have a grasp of the fundamentals

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017936)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:32 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Then identify the fundamental distinction I missed

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017951)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:32 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

im good

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017952)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:24 PM
Author: Onyx blood rage

substance dualism and property dualism are both “dualism,” the title of ur thread brother

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017924)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:30 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Yes, both are called dualism. The dispute is whether nonreductive physicalism is therefore “basically identical” to substance dualism. It is not.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017944)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:31 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

youre a total retard. no one is a substance dualist anymore. everything about substance dualism got shoehorned into NRP.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017948)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:35 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Then stop appealing to labels and state your own position. Are qualia physically realized or not? Do they causally affect brains and behavior or not? Can they exist without a physical organism or not? Answer those directly instead of calling everything "basically dualism".

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017958)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:36 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

no. the mainstream position is NRP and its basically dualism.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017964)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:38 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

That is a SOCIOLOGICAL claim. I'm not asking what is mainstream or what label you attach to NRP. Are qualia physically realized? Do they causally affect the brain? Can they exist without a physical organism?

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017969)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:38 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

if you think ur stupid ass is gonna solve philosophy of mind ur stupider than i thought

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017973)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:41 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Who said I was going to “solve philosophy of mind”? I asked you three basic questions about your own position, and instead of answering them you invented a claim I never made

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017989)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:42 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

there is essentially no disagreement on the major facts. if you want to argue about minutia or defend an absurd position as some kind of performance art to get back at your mean dad im not interested.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017993)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:47 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

The fuck is the point of even poasting here if you aren't interested in performance art?

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018006)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:16 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

yeah because if physicalism is true they'd be out of a job

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017895)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 9:59 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

I think midwits find it compelling to believe in a magic non-physical layer regardless of whether they will have a job. They think any residual between representation and reality is evidence for an additional substance. Like dude, the equations for thermodynamics don't actually contain heat ITSELF "WITHIN" them man, there must be something non-physical here.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018173)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:27 PM
Author: Big immigrant

this shit uses sufficiently technical and opaque language that i cant tell if you people are smart or midwits playing tautological logic games ad infinitum

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017931)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:28 PM
Author: Onyx blood rage

there are highly technical highly interesting issues involving words itt but this is a retarded thread

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017934)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:32 PM
Author: lex

Thought this would be about metaphysical dualism

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017950)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 7:14 AM
Author: Fiercely-loyal Swashbuckling School Pocket Flask

cr thought this would be the final takedown of Consuela and MiG

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018677)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 8:33 PM
Author: cheese-eating marketing idea

It doesn't require you to count higher than 2

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50017954)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 10:20 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018241)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 10:22 PM
Author: wonderful sneaky criminal indian lodge

~120

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018252)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 10:30 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018272)



Reply

Date: July 22nd, 2026 11:46 PM
Author: Demanding Cruise Ship Affirmative Action

i would've said 110 or 120. but if there's a creator who has given us free will (and the term is meaningful) then hey maybe

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018487)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 5:15 AM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Why would you need a magic non-physical layer to have free will?

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018608)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 9:22 AM
Author: Demanding Cruise Ship Affirmative Action

if you think you don't need an additional layer, could you please explain how you think free will is possible?

if determinism is true, and you knew all of the matter and mechanisms and trajectories and cause/effect relationships on earth, you could predict the future. maybe quantum mechanics complicates this because it adds randomness, but imho that doesn't really help the argument in favor of free will being possible.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018831)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 9:30 AM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Free will doesn't require an uncaused or nonphysical mind. It means that your actions arise through your own capacity to evaluate reasons, model alternatives, and choose among physically available options. Even if determinism were true, your deliberation would still be part of what determines the future. Adding randomness or a nonphysical chooser would not make the choice any freer.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018839)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 5:25 AM
Author: yellow lodge

How is freshman year of college

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018610)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 5:29 AM
Author: bateful trump supporter

18000

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018611)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 9:22 AM
Author: Demanding Cruise Ship Affirmative Action

cr

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018832)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 10:09 AM
Author: Beta Lavender Public Bath Antidepressant Drug



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018880)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 10:38 AM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Whoahh you still poast here?

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018942)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 3:30 PM
Author: Beta Lavender Public Bath Antidepressant Drug

always been here. always will be

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019544)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 3:34 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

1800000

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019552)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 7:30 AM
Author: Heady Twisted Elastic Band Pisswyrm

260+

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50018699)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:01 PM
Author: grizzly elite set sandwich

The wackiest aspect of this thread is that you adhere to reductive materialism and also believe in free will. This is incoherent within your own premise.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019073)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:06 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

As he points out, one can have "free will" within a deterministic universe. You *can* choose whatever you want, genuinely. It's just that you were always going to choose whatever you end up choosing

The way that most people think about "free will" is wrong imho

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019084)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:10 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

You can be a reductive materialist and have a stronger account of free will than that. Reductive materialism does not require determinism. It only requires that the mind and agency be wholly physically realized or reducible to physical processes. The underlying physical processes could be indeterministic (although indeterminism in itself doesn't create freedom).

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019097)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:12 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's moot anyway because we for sure live in a deterministic universe per empirically confirmed physics

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019100)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:17 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Empirically confirmed physics proves that the universe is deterministic” is false. The fact that some successful physical models are deterministic doesn't show that the universe itself has been empirically shown to be deterministic. Determinism is a global modal claim.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019116)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:19 PM
Author: the White jensen huang

Relativity alone makes the universe deterministic, Champ

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019119)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:26 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

That's false. Special relativity straightforwardly does not. And general probably doesn't either. But even if they did within their domains that wouldn't imply the Universe is globally deterministic, because relativity is not by itself a complete theory of the universe.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019137)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:06 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

I never said I was a reductive materialist. I believe in one physical ontology with genuinely useful higher level biological and psychological descriptions. And even if I did adhere to reductive materialism, reductive materialism does not by itself entail the absence of free will.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019085)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:07 PM
Author: lex

"Genuinely"

Sup Claude

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019090)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 12:19 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Oh come on. I had never even heard about that one before, but looked it up and I guess it is genuinely a thing. That genuinely is not claude though. Not wasting Fable tokens on xo.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019120)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:14 PM
Author: grizzly elite set sandwich

Where is free will coming from in physicalism? I don't want to get into parsing reductive materialism from your particular ethos but they seem close enough to wonder. What, exactly is producing something genuinely mine or yours that isn't simply a product of physics?

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019376)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:21 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

From the person. My reasons, values, memories, and deliberation are physically realized, but they are still mine. Saying “physics caused the choice” does not exclude “I caused the choice” if I am the organized physical system doing the deliberating. A nonphysical soul would not solve anything by itself. Its choices could still be determined, random, coerced, or arbitrary.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019386)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:24 PM
Author: grizzly elite set sandwich

Your awareness of a deliberation shouldn’t be confused with actual free will. Just because a thought appears in awareness does not mean that you caused it to be conjured.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019388)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:28 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Agreed that merely noticing a thought does not mean I freely created it. But free will need not mean consciously choosing every thought before it occurs. I think the relevant question here is whether the person can evaluate thoughts, reject some, endorse others, inhibit impulses, and act accordance with this decision making process. Unbidden mental content is compatible with genuine agency over what one does with it.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019397)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:39 PM
Author: grizzly elite set sandwich

Where is this agency coming from? Who or what is the actual agent? I struggle to find a difference between experiencing a thought and a sound. That is to say I can sometimes watch thoughts in my head almost like watching a movie on the screen. To think that there is an I somewhere inside my head who is sorting and evaluating and discarding, and retaining these thoughts seems to me to be a huge leap. We cannot explain why we are conscious. To introduce the idea of actual agency into this mix seems to me to be absurd. I think agency is too often conflated with simple awareness.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019426)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:48 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Hmmm... yeah one thing I have to say is that I think physicalism and free will are not equally strong claims. I think physicalism is almost certainly true, while agency is a separate and harder question. There needn’t be a little I inside the head, but whether the whole physical system exercises enough genuine control to count as free, and how much is exactly what remains uncertain. That said, I don’t think the introspective experience of watching thoughts arise is enough by itself to show that agency or free will is unreal.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019449)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 3:07 PM
Author: grizzly elite set sandwich

Physicalism is appealing because it doesn't add in any extra elements that then require extraordinary explanation. Determinism, to me, seems to be the same. Free will, even in compatibilism terms, seems like an artificial addition that then requires extraordinary explanation. There isn't one element of consciousness that requires the injection of free will to explain anything aside from the subjective experience of choice. And even that subjective feeling, I would argue, falls away when you scrutinize the nature of your own awareness. I guess I am much more interested in the question of, "why/how consciousness," rather than "are we free agents."

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019503)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 3:23 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

Yeah I have thought about that a lot (I agree with you regarding the extra elements thing for physicalism and have considered the same for determinism), but still just think that ultimately it is much more likely that we are free (within constraints) and also physical. I think people get caught up in the idea that since certain systems can be calculated with equations, gravitation, thermodynamics or whatever else then that means there is no more additional "room" for possibility or agency. To me that is just wildly false. You don't need anything exotic or outside known physical equations for freedom. The global system is rich enough on its own. I think the mistake comes from treating physical laws as though they exhaust reality by replacing the organized system with equations describing it. A gravitational equation constrains trajectories. It does not follow that an organism cannot use perception, memory, prediction, and motor control to navigate within those constraints. The laws do not act instead of the organism. They describe the processes from which the organism and its agency are constituted. Possibility is not an empty gap in the laws where a supernatural cause can intervene. It is the structured set of counterfactual trajectories available to a system under different information, intentions, inputs, and interventions. A rock has few controllable trajectories. An animal has more. I can sit here and simulate distance consequences, revise goals and so on and so forth. And like I said it's not like I'm trying to tell you you are definitely wrong. I'm not 100% sure about free will, and am much more certain about physicalism. You could very well be right, but it just seems more likely to me that free will and possibility are real.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019536)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 3:35 PM
Author: grizzly elite set sandwich

I agree that there is ample room for free will to exist; I would simply challenge the notion that it's a necessary component for an understanding of consciousness.

When you drill down this far, the questions become more like thought experiments than anything seeking actual answers. And when you look at it like that, you can go down all sorts of wacky and enjoyable rabbit holes. I particularly get a kick out of panpsychism and essentialism and, more broadly William James' take on pantheism. In that same vein, I really enjoy reading Freud but I can easily recognize that he was a terrible practitioner/psychoanalyst.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019559)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 6:40 PM
Author: wine office

I agree with you, good subthread, ty both.

I think some people feel like "I can make a decision" is inconsistent with "my decision is predictable according to laws and states", but I don't see it that way. *I* don't know all the laws and states, so from my point of view I'm still making choices all the time with the info I have, not falling into a certain path just because it's How Things Are.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020245)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 7:06 PM
Author: the White jensen huang



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020307)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 7:10 PM
Author: Naked Field Shitlib



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020323)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 1:22 PM
Author: Richard Ames

I am not 100% sure of what "dualism" really means anymore, but I may qualify as one in some sense and I don't think I'm particularly low IQ.

In a nutshell, I am something of a panpsychist. While I think our "minds" are formed inside of our brains, I think it is highly likely that our bodies exist as systems through which the Electromagnetic Field experiences the world. I don't think this is limited to us, in fact I think that all living organisms are effectively vessels for the EMF to experience the world. What we know of as the EMF may actually be some sort of "Spirit OS" in a sense.

I think it's altogether possible that some organisms may be more of a "hive mind" through which the EMF interacts with the world. Take ants, for example. Or even much simpler single cell organisms that behave in ways that are difficult to really understand. Fundamentally I am talking about organisms that don't have anywhere near a real brain and that seem to do things with some level of complexity / act in concert with one another.

What's more, we also know that people who spend many years in meditation practice can reach a point in which they experience a total lack of self. They seem to reach a point where their awareness moves beyond the "self" produced by our brain for purposes of processing information.

Maybe the Zen Buddhist types were right all along.

To be clear, I (obviously) did not come up with this idea and am borrowing much from the dude Ryan Faulke (The Alternative Hypothesis) who has written some interesting stuff on the matter.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019247)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 1:30 PM
Author: Glittery hyperactive factory reset button potus

philosophy is incredibly low iq these days

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019260)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 2:14 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter

It's getting higher iq in the sense that people are realizing physicalism is most certainly true. Although perhaps this isn't due to iq increase. Likely is just due to ordinary knowledge advancement especially with increased connectivity and access to literature.

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50019373)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 6:41 PM
Author: Metaphysics Is Solved

Fun thread with incredible traction for (xo 202

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020248)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 6:44 PM
Author: Naked Field Shitlib



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020251)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 7:03 PM
Author: Hilarious boyish heaven

https://x.com/i/status/2080405089722798105

(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020289)



Reply

Date: July 23rd, 2026 9:49 PM
Author: bateful trump supporter



(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5885256&forum_id=2#50020745)