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I may be starting to lean to Brownstone over McBeef
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:03 PM Author: tan stage The sense of real tragedy and helplessness that those kids must have felt when Mr. Brownstone stole their winnings must have been enormous. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955443) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:05 PM Author: fluffy sadistic trailer park I may be a philistine, but I can't help thinking that the casino's security cameras would eventually reveal the truth of the situation, possibly leading to some legal action against Brownstone. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955457) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:45 PM Author: turquoise stage Most likely the casino would look over the recording, see that the kids won it, and use the fact that they were 17 to invalidate the win and keep the money. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955710) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:46 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt I responded, btw, in case you didn't see it (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955720) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:50 PM Author: turquoise stage tyty. I will get back to you soon. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955750) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:15 PM Author: Fuchsia zombie-like lay pistol There is an episode of full house that plays out this exact scenario. Aunt Becky leaves the slot machine for a second and while she is gone Stephanie puts a coin in and pulls the lever winning the jackpot. As she is celebrating her win Aunt Becky comes in and, because Stephanie would be too young to claim her winnings, claims the jackpot as her own. Later in the episode the Casino unveils its video evidence that it was actually Stephanie who pulled the lever and refuses to award them their prize. There is also an episode of Growing Pains where Mike goes to a casino underage and wins the jackpot. When the Casino discovers that he is underage they end up revoking his winnings. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955942) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:16 PM Author: Shaky dilemma How the fuck did Stephanie get on the casino floor? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955949) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:18 PM Author: jade theatre azn bj? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955967) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:18 PM Author: motley claret clown becky seriously you need to leave texas one day and experience the world. you will be astonished. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955970) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:28 PM Author: Shaky dilemma I remember this being an old episode where she is like 12. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956048) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:31 PM Author: motley claret clown becky yes but if you had gone out into IRL you may know that anyone is allowed to walk on the casino floor. Children have to cross it to get from outside to their hotel rooms. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956089) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:27 PM Author: 180 lodge chad What is your opinion on Mr. Brownstone as a model of the exigeant struggle against indomitable, faceless absolutism at the fin-de-siecle? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956036) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:43 PM Author: jade theatre azn i don't think millenialism factors into Cho's work. he is concerned with the past and present, but rarely if ever the future.
indeed, his final performance further cements this fact. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:46 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt You make a good point, but Cho's fatalism (especially in light of his most recent work) certainly signals the end of an era. Perhaps this is something all of his art pointed to, and we would be derelict in not pursuing this avenue of thought. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956248) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:48 PM Author: 180 lodge chad This exchange is, of course, a good summary of the basic positions that typically show up in this debate, but I was really posing it to :D in the hopes that he would shed some new light on the topic with a reasoned analysis. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956269) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:49 PM Author: Comical fishy persian stock car Yet the struggle with which Cho engaged himself in all his life, against "rich kids", "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans", was never framed by Cho himself in terms that suggested that this struggle would end with the passing of any particular political order. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956283) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:51 PM Author: jade theatre azn Cho was concerned with the future only insomuch as it constituted the end of the present. Any understanding of his work must begin with this simple fact. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956303) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:58 AM Author: Useless iridescent turdskin private investor simply extraordinary. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960917) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:00 AM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt indeed, this is an insight that had simply slipped my mind. Thank you for the reminder. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960923) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 9:27 AM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Cho recognized that any fundamentally "futurist" time-orientation was inherently racist.
See Dr. Fulano, in the past. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 6:06 PM Author: crawly kitty cat fat ankles It wasnt Aunt Becky- it was Joey dude. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958417) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:10 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor While I am not necessarily with those who feel that McBeef borrows too heavily from Hamlet, Brownstone has an undeniable freshness of voice that we haven't seen since Miller and O'Neil. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955488) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:44 PM Author: jade theatre azn credited. he makes naomi wallace look like neil simon. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956833) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:15 PM Author: 180 lodge chad That may be the most poignant moment from either work, but McBeef is still clearly a better piece. Mr. Brownstone is a cardboard cutout villain as compared to the complex tapestry of richard mcbeef; at the same time, the horror and ennui is better crystallized in the singular protaganist of mcbeef than it is in the ensemble cast of brownstone. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955519) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:17 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Brownstone plays off the greek tragedies of good and evil (assuming the students are killed in the end) rather than borrowing heavily from shakespeare. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955529) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:17 PM Author: underhanded misanthropic lettuce Plus the ensable cast in Brownstone really feels like one character talking to himself. There was absolutely no way to differentiate between the 3 - you could have randomly assigned their lines between them without any effect. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955530) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:19 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Thats because they represent society (and its oppression) as a unit. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955539) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:31 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor As I'm sure you are aware, Cho vigorously disclaimed the whole line of Brownstone "dual metaphor" scholarship. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955622) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:42 PM Author: Electric confused office rofl (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955687) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:56 PM Author: Painfully honest alpha area Of course, there's always a debate to be had as to whether the author's extratextual comments can or should affect the "meaning" of a particular work. The text is an artifact that must be examined with respect to time, place, audience, and historical context. What it "means" will inevitably vary.
It may very well be the case that Cho did not intend to convey dual metaphors, but the "meaning" of those dual metaphors may, nevertheless, be found in his work.
The fact that Cho was the author does not bestow upon him the authority to pronounce for all time what the text can and should mean. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:57 PM Author: jade theatre azn indeed. most art is built on sublimation. so he wouldn't even realize what he was doing.
especially because he was an illiterate tard. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:58 PM Author: Painfully honest alpha area *raises fat arm* (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955828) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:58 PM Author: jade theatre azn *kills mcbeef with a rice krispy treat* (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955832) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:19 PM Author: Ungodly Space Brownstone, IMO, is a well-executed metaphor for the effect (i.e., multiple personality disorder) caused by compartmentalizing the pain of sexual abuse. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955543) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:23 PM Author: underhanded misanthropic lettuce That does make sense - They simply ignore their molestor rather than confront him and the sense that whever they do they can't get away from him, both common reacations from molested kids.
It seems pretty clear that he suffered some sort of molestation as a kid - both plays have that as a central theme. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:27 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt Yes, but the child's challenging of the molester in McBeef provides us with a sense of hope that children victimized everywhere can indeed regain the respect and innocence they have lost. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955592) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:29 PM Author: Mildly Autistic Gay Scourge Upon The Earth Randal Graves: Which did you like better? "Jedi" or "The Empire Strikes Back"? Dante Hicks: "Empire". Randal Graves: Blasphemy. Dante Hicks: "Empire" had the better ending. I mean, Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father, Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett. It ends on such a down note. I mean, that's what life is, a series of down endings. All "Jedi" had was a bunch of Muppets. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:29 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor During the better performances, you will feel the audience's collective contempt toward Richard McBeef. Very powerful. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955614) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:37 PM Author: Trip very tactful site i think critics forget that no act of sexual abuse by an authority figure occurs in either mr. brownstone or richard mcbeef. rather, we are relying on the testimony of the children themselves, children who prove to be unreliable witnesses. mcbeef in particular seems to be victimized by an audience all to quick to pronounce him guilty. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955651) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:41 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor A minor director in Vienna put on an "experimental" production of McBeef a few years back in which the attempted exoneration of Richard (by way of clumsy flashbacks) was not well received. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955680) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:11 PM Author: pink deer antler round eye every day that goes by, I worship xoxo a little more.
seriously this is the best website on earth. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:17 PM Author: Ungodly Space What might an experimental production of McBeef entail? Could gender-bending be employed to suggest pegging? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957145) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:41 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt While it is true that no act of sexual abuse is forced upon the children in either play, the actions of McBeef (the eventual rape of the mother and his killing of her former husband) and Brownstone (the theft of the lottery ticket) point to the reality that neither is innocent.
Both plays set up a larger narrative of authority figures continally plundering the most helpless citizens of our society. Whether or not McBeef and Brownstone are guilty of the crimes they are charged is irrelevant to the central meaning of Cho's work. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:20 PM Author: Ungodly Space "Whether or not McBeef and Brownstone are guilty of the crimes they are charged with is irrelevant to the central meaning of both plays."
Because of this, I think Baudrillard's concept of hyperreality might shed light on the commentary Cho was making in his dramatic work.
Assume, for the sake of argument, that neither McBeef nor Brownstone actually committed sexual assault against the protagonists of either work. Despite this, the protagonists' action is motivated by sexual assault. Sexual assault is thus a proxy for the real source of their hate of McBeef and Brownstone, and this hyperreal construction prevents them from emotionally engaging the real issues that motivate them. Thus the two plays might be taken as a critique of modern consumerist culture, where brands serve as a symbol of social status. They might even be read as a critique of XOXO culture, where Vault rankings *become* prestige, regardless of whether or not an individual lawyer is prestigious in his practice.
(It should be noted that Cho's use of the casino setting in Brownstone gives more weight to the use of Baudrillard as a tool for understanding his work, as Baudrillard uses the casino as a prime example of the hyperreal, where gamblers live in a dream world, forgetting about the *real* money they're losing when they gamble in a fantasy playground where everything is an exaggerated version of itself.) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:30 PM Author: Ungodly Space I realize it may be considered uncouth to bring further attention to one's own scholarship, but I feel it necessary to bump so that others might further explore the relationship between semiotics and Cho studies. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956666) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:06 PM Author: sable piazza fantastic post above (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959423) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:38 PM Author: Ungodly Space tyty.
At the bottom of the thread, I have also taken the chance to analyze Cho through the lens of Paulo Freire. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:00 PM Author: razzmatazz kitchen Remarkably brilliant post. I don't know what to add to this, except that, as we all know, Cho was a noted scholar not only of Baudrillard, but of Baudrillard's critics. I think Cho may be intentionally using Baudrillardian symbology in an attempt to enrich our understanding of the very Baudrillardian project that we are using to examine Cho's work - this is a very complex sort of analytical recursion that is only accomplished through Cho's deft plotsmanship.
I have long said that there is the Bible, and there is Cho's canon - and that if one must be put to the scourge and karcherised from human experience, may it be the Bible. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:12 PM Author: Ungodly Space I would be especially interested in someone exploring how Cho studies might illuminate our understanding of Irigaray's conception of the mother-daughter relationship. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957552) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:40 PM Author: Green church dog poop However, some have said that Cho was like Vonnegut in that neither man systematically studied their predecessors. Vonnegut recalled that he "couldn’t play games with [his] literary ancestors" for that reason. If that is also true for Cho, it gives his works a greater sense of authenticity. For under that scenario, his pieces would not be modern derivations of canoncial works, but rather his pieces would be more likely to be representations of some other underlying Truth that the canonical works independently captured centuries ago. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957754) |
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Date: April 24th, 2007 5:38 PM Author: At-the-ready station He beats a 13-year-old boy to death in the end, what the fuck do you expect. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7994571) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:23 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor If you had ever seen just a moderately competent execution of Brownstone you would know very well that there is ample differentiation. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955567) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:31 PM Author: motley claret clown becky I wouldnt blame that on him though. Part of the problem is that Brownstone remains an unfinished piece (I've yet to see page 11), so I suspect many of Brownstones adaptations have strayed somewhat from Chos original intent. There is no such problem with McBeef, and thus the consistency in the productions. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955621) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:36 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor Fair point. But throughout the Princeton Lectures, Cho couldn't have made his vision for the end of Brownstone more clear. I had hoped that would put and end to all the apochryphal Page 11s that turned up during the fiasco with the film rights. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955646) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:21 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor I obviously don't dispute the chilling realism in McBeef, best exemplified by the eponymous stepfather's seamless transferance of his lust from child to mother. We have all, of course, lived this same circumstance, in some fashion. Thus the universal resonance of McBeef. However, you seem to be conflating accessibility, even popularity, with genius. To say that McBeef is "clearly a better piece" is simply untenable, and against the great weight of critical response. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955550) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:32 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt I concur. In fact, Brownstone's call for sweeping social change due to the helplessness that grips our society clearly places it above McBeef in deserved praise. It's existential bent is critical to challenge the uncomfortable reality of alienation in America today. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955625) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:21 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt You know, it's posts like this that make xoxo a great place (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955556) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:21 PM Author: Trip very tactful site i've come to appreciate how mr. brownstone turns its obvious debt to g'n'r on its head by devoting a substantial part of the play to reciting lyrics, and his introduction of the lottery ticket and the incarnation of mr. brownstone as a teacher to reveal the failures of both capitalism and the western eduaction system as the primary causes of drug abuse. still, i prefer the witty explorations of family dynamics of mcbeef over the pointed social critique of brownstone. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955551) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:17 PM Author: erotic range pozpig This board is sick. I have never laughed as hard in my entire life than I have while reading the board's analysis of Cho's writing. You guys are assholes. But brilliant nonetheless. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955958) |
Date: April 18th, 2007 12:34 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt I like how some of these posts could easily be made into a LR problem
"The authors fulano and Platitude Jones disagree over:" |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:38 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor You'll see the same debate played out by Cho scholars everywhere. There are McBeef people, and there are Brownstone people. Stones and Beatles, chocolate and vanilla. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955661) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:44 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt titcr (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955698) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:52 PM Author: jade theatre azn personally, i view them as almost a single unit. brownstone shows a two-headed protagonist engaged in dialogue intended to show the sense of helplessness and betrayal which pervade american youth, and the institional oppression which only exacerbates this feeling. thus, while there are technically two leads in brownstone, i would argue they are the same lonely, frightened person trying to find clarity in thoughts clouded by fear and stupidity.
by the time of mcbeef, the protagonist merges and with the clarity of a single protagonist comes clarity as to the ultimate target of the writer's animosity. rather than corrupt institutions like casinos or evil father-substitutes like brownstone, the ire is focussed on the parental units that created his disaffection in the first place; the enabling doting mother and the step father (a character written with remarkable ambivilance despite the overwhelming simplicity of the piece at times).
this cycle shows a young man determining who he hates (everyone, basically) and why (because parents suck). brownstone is like plato's dialogues, while mcbeef is more conventional theater based on the realizations gained in brownstone. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:57 PM Author: Dull elite legend partner Welcome home, friend. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955821) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:58 PM Author: jade theatre azn The show usually starts around seven We go on stage around nine
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:57 PM Author: Painfully honest alpha area Xoxo: Best in Cho studies? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955822) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 12:59 PM Author: jade theatre azn we are scholars and gentlemen.
well scholars at least. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:37 PM Author: wild alcoholic business firm well men at least (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959591) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:05 PM Author: 180 lodge chad One niggling point that I've never been able to overcome in my extensive textual analysis of McBeef: what is the role of the archetypal "cereal bar?" I feel like this is a major hole in Cho scholarship. Intuitively, I think it lends a level of complexity that clearly separates it from Brownstone; at the same time, my inability to parse through leaves me unsure and frustrated with my (and indeed, it is a failing of the entire Cho community) inadequate grasp of the Choian mindset. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955870) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:07 PM Author: jade theatre azn it's a reflection of the protagonist's attempts to enter adulthood despite his obsession with childhood traumas. he's eating a child's food (rice krispies) in a packaged, manufactured, and accordingly "adult" fashion. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955879) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:28 PM Author: Khaki athletic conference Bravo! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956047) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:07 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt I understand your frustration. At first I was leaning towards the bar as the universal phallus, but I rejected that interpretation as too simplistic (not to mention lazy). (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955881) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:50 PM Author: Vibrant Foreskin Theater It also overlooks the obvious connection to the "brownstone joke." Food and feces play a prominent role in Cho's work, but remain his most mysterious motif. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957837) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:08 PM Author: motley claret clown becky i explained this in another thread. the cereal bar is banana flavored and thus phallic imagery that represents the sexualization of his assault on McBeef. But like Sweep the leg, I'm of the camp that thinks mcbeef is the victim in this story. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:12 PM Author: 180 lodge chad I'm of the same mindset as sarcaschtick here. Of course I read the well-known article by Richardson et al in Harper's, but I think resolving the Bar in terms of phallism is lazy scholarship and, to be frank, wholly inconsistent with the dense and multilayered symbolism that Cho typically employs. I consider the matter unresolved. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955931) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:16 PM Author: motley claret clown becky I'm sure you dont like the alternative, simian, explanation of the banana bar either. But both point to the direction ignored by the mass audience--McBeef was a man falsely accused of two crimes and because the crimes were so heinous, he was found guilty of them without the benefit of a trial. Its interesting that Cho chose to commit suicide right after the persecution of the Duke Lacrosse boys, and the coincidence cannot be ignored. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:18 PM Author: jade theatre azn indeed. arguably his final performance piece served as the culmination of his literary career. how many people can say they mastered playwriting, only to establish an equally laudable career in performance art later? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955963) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:23 PM Author: motley claret clown becky We've long seen mixed media but this is one of the first times an artist is able to implicate (and lampoon) the news media. Bravo. And what courage. But unlike Sopranos, Cho was able to end his career on high. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:26 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt I'm sorry, but the 'performance art' turn of phrase deserves a 180 (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956026) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:19 PM Author: sable piazza indeed, but i'm going to hell for it (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959491) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 8:36 AM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) Slavoj Žižek would agree. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7962049) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:19 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt As I pointed out above, Cho's work in McBeef clearly illustrates the fact that the assailant's guilt (which may very well be in dispute) is irrelevant to the larger narrative in which the audience is meant to understand the play. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955972) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:22 PM Author: 180 lodge chad I think your point on the Lacrosse incident is well-taken, and it's one of the (many) reasons that Cho will continue to be studied and debated by ensuing generations. It underscores a fundamental question about literary criticism. To wit: can we really analyze any piece of art as a universe unto itself, hermetically sealed, or must we necessarily turn to a metacritical investigation of the author herself? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955990) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:29 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Cho would say no, and I think thats precisely the problem that comes from the current narrative of what McBeef "means." While Cho chose to allow McBeef to remain an ambiguous character, he had no qualms about the experimental production in Austria, and even lauded the director for taking the play out of its popular understanding. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956066) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:38 PM Author: jade theatre azn i cannot reconcile Cho's final performance piece with this line of reasoning. earlier in Cho's career he certainly embraced any productions of his work (bear in mind that he was critically respected though relatively unknown at this point).
but the audacity and courage of his final performance seems to indicate a man who was prepared for his life and his work to be considered together. indeed, his later work was designed specifically to encourage a dissection of his thoughts and feelings.
in light of that statement, i doubt Cho would really expect (much less desire) critics to consider his work in a vacuum. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:43 PM Author: motley claret clown becky NO no no I agree with you. Cho clearly wanted his pieces explored from all angles and I think that included his personal life and later performance art. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956211) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:44 PM Author: jade theatre azn then why shift from creating ephemeral ruminations on childhood, guilt, and other amorphous concepts to such concrete, reality-based work? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956226) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:50 PM Author: motley claret clown becky I suspect his own personal history will be rich with what we later understood to be "ephemeral ruminations." Towards the end of his life he asked us to reevaulate our interpretations of his works, and was consistently rebuked. I suspect he believed in his cause enough to martyr himself. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956291) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:52 PM Author: jade theatre azn stated this way, i must admit the idea has some merit. perhaps his final message to humanity was that he was much more of a realist than the academy ever gave him credit for. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956318) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:55 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt Great artists are not restricted to one venue to facilitate social change. Indeed, they are able to make their presence felt through a variety of sources, whether they be words or actions. Perhaps he felt it necessary to make his most poignant statement in a manner that would not merely shock us, but reevaluate his life's work accordingly.
I will concede, however, that this type of blunt instrument is not usually present in his earlier work. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:39 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt As this thread is dedicated mostly to Brownstone vs McBeef as literary works, I will not deign to follow you down this avenue of thought - even though I disagree vigorously with Cho's characterization of his own work. It is an interesting discussion, however, and perhaps we should continue it on another panel. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956170) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:12 PM Author: jade theatre azn perhaps, but don't think anyone is let off the hook in mcbeef. mcbeef isn't lilly white, the child is pyschotic, and the mother is a delusional enabler of her son's sickness.
that's what makes it a superior work to brownstone. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:16 PM Author: Painfully honest alpha area *farts* (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955951) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:19 PM Author: jade theatre azn *throws chainsaw* (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7955973) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:35 PM Author: Trip very tactful site i'm hesitant to accept the easy phallic symbolism, but i think it's apt. why does mcbeef react with such revulsion when the cereal bar is thrust into his mouth? perhaps mcbeef did in fact have pedophillic inclinations (the famous "him hand on John's lap" direction). the presence of the cereal bar is a constant reminder of the sexual temptation posed by the young boy, and when john symbolically presents his cock and balls in the car mcbeef is forced to face the horror of his desires. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956133) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:39 PM Author: 180 lodge chad I would buy into this theory more easily if it were a one-time expression of phallic symbolism; I could see Cho making a conscious choice to utilize an accessible metaphor so as not to belabor the comparison and bog down the narrative. But here, the Bar has a ubiquitous presence throughout the work. Could it really be so cut and dry? My understanding of Cho tells me that he merely WANTS the audience to take the low-hanging fruit, thereby separating the opening night dilettantes from the real consumers of Choian philosophy. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956169) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:41 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt This is strong analysis. Those who have studied Cho's work understand that his symbolism goes much deeper and further (if you pardon the double entendre) than mere Freudian throwaways. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956200) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:46 PM Author: Comical fishy persian stock car Yet it seems doubtful that Cho would have consciously, at least, entertained such notions of McBeef performances as items whose value could be placed on discrete tiers. It was Cho, after all, who stayed throughout his life an unfailing advocate of popular artists such as Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, and Collective Soul, a brave advocacy that led to scorn from the cultural elites who would ostensibly be the audience for such a flagrantly discriminatory level of meaning in the cereal bar symbol. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956247) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:03 PM Author: Trip very tactful site i believe one of the beauties of choian sybmolism is its surface simplicity. cho doesn't want the audience to waste time unlocking the symbols, but rather to explore how they interact and inform the new reality his narrative creates. see his "spanky" and "jelly" relationship for another example. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956420) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:07 PM Author: Comical fishy persian stock car Exactly. That is what separates Cho from the rather sophist works of his peers. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956457) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:07 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor No doubt the inevitable Cho-themed symposia that will arise in the coming weeks and months will finally give some definition to the more vexing Choian quandaries that have persistently confounded scholars in the field. Among the congnescenti, there has of course always been a plethora of diverse "takes" on the familiar McBeefian propositions. Yet each such perspective has been tidly kept under an ultimately "scholarly" paradigm. Now, with his career puncutated so publicly, perhaps a wider audience will provide contributions heretofore lacking.
A caveat, though: With popularization and permeation into middle- and low-brow strata, the Cho canon effectively "leaves the nest" of the intelligentsia, where maxims prescribing the "death of the author" and the unattainability of authorial intent are now more than just a metaphor. A mass-marketed Richard McBeef, connected with the face of Hollywood's "hunk du'jour," will engender a predictable disquiet among Cho scholars. Without Cho's famously spare and reclusive voice to interject even the cryptic objections that have subtly denounced not a few wayward scholars who dared venture beyond the boundaries of the Choian Zeitgiest, it is the "market" -- untamed and brutal in its candor -- that will determine, for instance, Mr. Brownstone's place in popular iconography. But such is the sparsely traveled yet definite path of genius. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:47 PM Author: Fear-inspiring dun parlour national security agency I respect the analysis of the above scholars who rejected the reading of the banana cereal bar as phallus in Cho's work, and I agree that the interpretation is "low hanging fruit" not typical in Choian dramaturgy. However, I disagree that the interpretation is irrelevant. I argue that Cho was counting on that initial interpretation in order to make a more challenging statement.
I read the banana flavor of the cereal bar as a reference to a more primate, animal heritage much broader than simple phallic psychosexualization. Indeed, what is the boy in McBeef but an embodiment of the Freudian id? Impulsive; physical; a thin layer of constantly shifting "rational" justifications dressing up a primal, singularly-focused hunger (e.g., "JOHN: I hate him. Must kill Dick. Dick must die. Kill Dick." -Richard McBeef). It is as though the banana cereal bar is a totem of humanity's animal heritage. Observe that mere physical contact with it is all it takes to awaken that ancient, decivilizing urge in the work's characters: John is at his most physical when holding the bar; Dick's contact with the bar, however involuntary, yields similar result.
The initial and obvious interpretation of the bar as mere phallic sexuality seems to be bait that the author counted on readers taking. In light of animal reanalysis above, perhaps he did this in order to make a distinct point regarding the inability of psychosexual interpretation to completely account for the the full pressures of his characters' primal heritage and the constant tension between our civilizing tendency and our decivilizing urges. The fact that McBeef was able to have that instinct involuntarily awakened in him seems to ask the reader whether he, himself, has a "banana cereal bar," so to speak- and whether he would even know if he did. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:14 PM Author: jade theatre azn you are clearly a Cho scholar of some note. excellent analysis. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957115) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:03 PM Author: 180 lodge chad Agreed. Although I may not fully concur in his analysis, I cannot help but respect the obvious critical thought and breadth of experience that went into it. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957497) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:05 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Oh now youre impressed by what i referred to as the simian explanation for the banana bar? I can't help but think you may be one of those readers who has only in the past few days jumped on the Cho-wagen. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957511) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:16 PM Author: 180 lodge chad My Cho-credentials are impeccable, pretender. I understand that from your vantage point in the Cho academy it is difficult to contemplate how two scholars might disagree in principle, but nonetheless have admiration for the erudition with which the dissenting party approaches her craft. With time and experience, hopefully you will have a richer and more subtle understanding of the Cho landscape. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957581) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:18 PM Author: Fear-inspiring dun parlour national security agency Civil discourse, friend. He is clearly a scholar of note, and has indicated no inconsistency.
I should note that I believe the label "simian" as regards this line of critical scholarship to be an unfairly oversimplified characterization. I agree that pure simian interpretation of Cho's work is a dead end (see Hartford's excellent "On the Death of the Simian Narrative", Harper Row, 1981), but my analysis is clearly not pure simian interpretation of his symbology. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:29 PM Author: motley claret clown becky You'll notice some of his responses are delayed to see how others will first react. He has appeared time and again on the modern lit fan boards and Cho-net (whose subscription base more than tripled in the last day) today and offers nothing of substance. I suppose we should expect this. With Cho's final work came notoriety and with notoriety come hangers-on. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:30 PM Author: 180 lodge chad The delay is because I am a Cho TEACHER every bit as much as a Cho SCHOLAR, and I must attend to my students. The Cho space is a living field that demands nurturing from new young minds! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958123) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:18 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt Your analysis is indeed compelling. While I still reject the view of the bar as a mere phallic object, slightly modifying the symbolism to include a more primal fight between man and civilization would expand our views of McBeef considerably.
If this is the case, then McBeef is a much larger social critique then we initially anticipated. For within us all there is the conflict with our id. John's attempts to combat the evil he sees oppressing him alongside his attempts to combat the evil he sees in him portray the nature of humanity over the past 10,000 years. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:23 PM Author: Dull elite legend partner This is an autoadmit Yale 250 (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957203) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:46 PM Author: Trip very tactful site groundbreaking analysis.
i would also note cho's choice of a cereal bar, itself a commoditized simulacrum of participation in a nourishing breakfast ritual, to represent that animal heritage. as the breakfast bar can never be "real breakfast", the play is restricted to the sybmolic real by its modes of signification, suggesting cho has grown weary of traditional theater and hinting at the direction of his later work. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 6:04 PM Author: Fear-inspiring dun parlour national security agency This is an important insight. The banana cereal bar is not a banana- it is an item of manufacture, an imitation produced by society. Perhaps Cho is cynically observing that culture's phony approximations that appeal to the natural state can never appease our hunger for it. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958404) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:21 PM Author: Fiercely-loyal temple oh my god, LOL! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963986) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:12 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse I heart this thread and am sorry that I have and will, at least in the immediate future, continue to miss it (i.e. sorry I have lunch plans).
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:47 PM Author: Electric confused office it's already one of my favorite threads ever. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956256) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:40 PM Author: Comical fishy persian stock car I believe this poem from Nikki Giovanni, an underlooked poet who had the grace to move from Cho's teacher to his protege, has been ignored in recent discussions. It bears interesting resemblances to the core themes enunciated in McBeef, Brownstone, and various apocryphal texts associated with the Cho school.
Text below:
"We are Virginia Tech.
We are sad today, and we will be sad for quite a while. We are not moving on, we are embracing our mourning.
We are Virginia Tech.
We are strong enough to stand tall tearlessly, we are brave enough to bend to cry, and we are sad enough to know that we must laugh again.
We are Virginia Tech.
We do not understand this tragedy. We know we did nothing to deserve it, but neither does a child in Africa dying of AIDS, neither do the invisible children walking the night away to avoid being captured by the rogue army, neither does the baby elephant watching his community being devestated for ivory, neither does the Mexican child looking for fresh water, neither does the Appalachian infant killed in the middle of the night in his crib in the home his father built with his own hands being run over by a boulder because the land was destabilized. No one deserves a tragedy.
We are Virginia Tech.
The Hokie Nation embraces our own and reaches out with open heart and hands to those who offer their hearts and minds. We are strong, and brave, and innocent, and unafraid. We are better than we think we are and not quite what we want to be. We are alive to the imaginations and the possibilities. We will continue to invent the future through our blood and tears and through all our sadness.
We are the Hokies.
We will prevail.
We will prevail.
We will prevail.
We are Virginia Tech." |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:46 PM Author: jade theatre azn but that is why giovanni will be remembered as the pupil rather than the teacher.
where giovanni sees absolutes ("we ARE virginia tech") Cho was able to perceive the subtle gradations of identity and the numerous psychological, spritual, and physical features and habits that comprise personhood. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 1:55 PM Author: Comical fishy persian stock car Absolutely.
Another oft-used example of the difference between Cho and Cho-ian writing is the inability of authors like Giovanni, in turns of phrase such as "We will prevail. We will prevail. We will prevail," to reach the pure catharsis of Cho, as evidenced, of course in his now oft-parodied "You won't get away with this, Brownstone! You old muthafucker! Muthafucker! Muthafucker!" |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:41 PM Author: jade theatre azn this is so fucking credited (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956806) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:46 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt Ah, yes. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956845) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:29 PM Author: sable piazza 180, brilliant. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959543) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:34 PM Author: Bronze rebellious dingle berry community account this whole thread gets a 180 (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956717) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:46 PM Author: Trip very tactful site a reading of mcbeef. part 1 http://youtube.com/watch?v=p2nqtKhEFM8
part 2 http://youtube.com/watch?v=1a43P3ZxjLI |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:50 PM Author: jade theatre azn the depth of Cho's work has overcome much greater actors than this hack. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956884) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:51 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt A travesty of monstrous proportions (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956900) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:53 PM Author: Trip very tactful site i'm of the opinion that there are no bad productions of cho, but this guy is pushing it. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956921) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:13 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor I won't cover familiar ground and fully recite Cho's well-documented responses to similar renderings, except to recall his famous quip upon viewing the Fresno Opera Company's ill-fated production of McBeef: "Superb . . . but for the singing."
I think we will miss that sardonic wit a lot more than we can know right now, while the grieving is so raw, the loss so unfathomable. Can it really be that the wellspring of Richard McBeef has been forever silenced? I, for one, am woe.
By the way, I count myself squarely among those who regard the so-called "shooting incident" as being properly within his canon of works, an equal to McBeef or Brownstone, moreover. Too, though much is made of the "loss of life," surely the expansion of our collective artistic boundaries more than compensates, and then some. That Virginia Tech is not highly ranked only further tips the balance of any utilitarian calculus in favor of art. Remarkably, philistine parents who have "lost a child" pay this no heed whatsoever, and are content to sob and blather over their departed mediocrity -- with nary a word of praise for Cho himself! Frankly, I am saddened only when I hear the many unconscionable calls to the effect that Cho ought to have been silenced, compelled to remove himself from the environment in which he prospered. Would that such a cabal had succeeded, now and forever past, and we wuld be without the works of others -- Milton, Cervantes, Issac Newton -- deemed "weird" or "frightening" by pedestrian sensibilities.
Let's be clear: This was not, as some have suggested, an impulsive instance of fatuous "performance art" but rather the first iteration of whatever resides on the other side of "post-modern." As the trivial personages ("Hokies"?!? Please.)) who were necessarily sacrified fade from memory, and as we see the last of banal "memorial services" in which a laughably bourgeois notion of "killing" and "tragedy" disturb those of us with higher sensibilities, it will become all too apparent that the price of experiencing the genius of Cho is the punishing loss of Cho.
Few can say that they walked the Earth contemporaneous with God's hand-chosen exemplar of the human species. Well, we did. We lived when Cho lived; and a part of our vitality and artistic urge has died with him, |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:15 PM Author: jade theatre azn A talent such as Cho's can never be silenced. The still small voice of Cho will reverberate through every playwright for the next century.
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:54 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor Until, that is, some obtuse "dean" or jealous creative writing instructor spots an historic talent such as Cho's and tries to silence it by invoking idiocy about "safety." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957452) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:14 PM Author: Ungodly Space The truth of Cho's observations will shine through any artificial darkness imposed by closed-minded academics. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957568) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:34 PM Author: racy orchid university I think you've been touched by the tiniest bit of Cho's spirit. Well done. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957312) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:40 PM Author: jade theatre azn I resent your suggestion that my characterization of his most recent work as "performance art" was intended with derision.
Aside from that, this post (as edited) is COMPLETELY credited. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:32 PM Author: sable piazza ty (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959559) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 2:57 PM Author: Fear-inspiring dun parlour national security agency Cho's work as performed by the Simpsons' Comic Book Guy. An insult to art. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7956949) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:04 PM Author: tan stage The portrayal of the mother as a some sort of Victorian matriarch is as compelling as it is controversial. There is a great deal of evidence suggesting that Cho saw the mother as a Korean drycleaner, and not a well to do Brit from last century. That having been said, this portrayal reinforces the the female as an oppressive force which consistently rejects. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957012) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:11 PM Author: jade theatre azn exactly. if anything, Cho tended to view mother figures as enablers. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957082) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:17 PM Author: tan stage enablers, and also unprincipled providers of sexual favor. note the ease with which the mother transitions from violence to sex and then disappears entirely. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957148) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:21 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt But does she actually disappear? Although she does not play another major role in the telling of the story, her sudden sexual satisfaction of McBeef certainly helps provide the impetus for the fatal ending. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957186) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:32 PM Author: tan stage Hmmm, being empowered by the mother's sexual embrace allowed McBeef to re-assert himself as the new dominant male of the house, eventually leading to the death of John? Compelling. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957286) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:14 PM Author: Green church dog poop Subject: Alternate reading http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E1Z91QsZOs (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957119) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:19 PM Author: jade theatre azn this reminds me of the infamous debate between Cho and Tony Kushner where Kushner (in typically condescending style) derided Cho's tendency towards "the same over-simplification of complex issues that damned much of Hemingway's catalogue to the trash bins of serious literary criticism."
To which Cho responded "SHUT THE FUCK UP MOTHER FUCKER I WILL MOTHER FUCKING KILL YOU."
*tear* |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:20 PM Author: motley claret clown becky I was in the audience that day. The entire crowd bellowed at Kushner "You old muthafucker! Muthafucker! Muthafucker!"
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:24 PM Author: jade theatre azn I was at the afterparty where dozens of angry Cho fans stormed into the rare books room, burning copies of "Homebody/Kabul" in effigy while they munch on cereal bars. Kushner escaped alive, but only because he'd been in the bathroom having sex with a young RA he'd met beforehand and snuck out a window.
To this day, Kushner says he'll never set foot on the campus of Brown again. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:22 PM Author: razzmatazz kitchen Gore Vidal claimed that he once seduced the young male escort of a certain Queen Beatrix with nothing more than a crisp Shiraz and a handful of lines from McBeef. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957195) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:25 PM Author: jade theatre azn If you ask Gore Vidal he'll tell you he invented gravity. This story is dubious IMHO. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957222) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:29 PM Author: razzmatazz kitchen I'd doubt it, but I have to admit, I have also quoted McBeef in the 'amorous context.' I think that most of us have.
"Hey baby... It was a boating accident."
*sex ensues* |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 3:34 PM Author: jade theatre azn credited. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957304) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:55 PM Author: turquoise stage Few terms of endearment can do more to placate the histrionics of the fairer sex than the emotional yet passionate "honey-poo." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959382) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:32 PM Author: Boyish internet-worthy whorehouse It is my contention that McBeef represents the adult male libido while John represents the oedipal desires of pre-pubescent boy. The final deadly blow represents a libidinal shift from boy-to-mother to man-to-woman. The play as a whole is an allegory for male sexual development during puberty. Additionally, the cereal bar is indeed a phallic representation, and in giving McBeef the phallus, we have a further example of the transference of control of the phallus to the fully-formed libido. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957701) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 6:46 PM Author: spectacular party of the first part I must question your sexual paradigm. McBeef, rather than representing the adult male libido represents the emasculation of men in a feminized society, as is the contention of Harvard's Mansfield. John, far from being a pre-pubescent boy has come into his own as a virile teenager, embraced by both mother and father in a latently sexual manner in a hypersexualized society that views children as little more than commodities, used for sexual pleasure. The cereal bar shows the final blow of the aging former NFLer McBeef's humiliation to post-modern conceptions of sexuality, the striking back representing an ultimately empty and futile attempt to reclaim a by now lost construction of masculinity. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958631) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:50 PM Author: Green church dog poop It seems we have largely neglected to examine the religious dimensions of McBeef. As you surely know, the cereal bar was banana-like in flavor. And scholars of social networking and user-generated video sites have known for some time that bananas are an atheist's worst nightmare. While we cannot be sure whether Cho was familiar with the work Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron, as a Korean, Cho was probably acquainted with several Christians who would have been well versed in the Comfort-Kirk Thesis. What this means vis-a-vis McBeef is unclear at this point, but we would do well to integrate the religious significance of bananas upon further analyses of Cho's works. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957836) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 4:54 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Breaking insight. I can't help but wonder if there aren't some sexualized Priest metaphors in McBeef. Cho after all lived in the 90s and 2000s like the rest of us. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957874) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:00 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse See at page 4 "What are you, a Catholic priest!" (classic Cho, ending a question with an explanation point.
See also "Damn you, catholic priest." at page 4 (classic Cho, ending a exclamatory phrase with a period). |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:03 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt At this point, I'm confused - I was partial to the observations that the banana metaphor may be a blow to atheists, but here we have Cho railing against the sexual perversions within the Catholic faith. I will defer to the wisdom of a greater scholar to sort out this thorny issue. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7957941) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:23 PM Author: Green church dog poop It seems the Cho -- through John -- is denouncing the logic and practice of theists. By eating the banana flavored bar, perhaps he is demonstrating that it is not his worst nightmare and that he is not afraid of their supposed logic. Indeed, he orally pulverizes their claims. His references to priets strike at the practice of religion. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958064) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:26 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Well he turns the worst nightmare back on the priest. Its something you'll typically find with Cho, the transfer of victiminazation. whos worst nightmare is this banana now, dear reader? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958095) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:27 PM Author: jade theatre azn You're missing a huge point here. Cho's work thrives precisely because of the profound ambivalence that pervades it! Cho lives in the grey area between love and hate, religiosity and humanism, peace and violence, calm and fury. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958101) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:50 PM Author: Vibrant Foreskin Theater No, no, no.
Despite the prima facie plausability of this account, it does not square well with the "food and feces" leightmotif that pervades Cho's work. The cereal bar is not a phallus, nor is it a religious symbol (unless very broadly construed); rather, it is the foil of the "brownstone" joke in Mr. Brownstone, if not Mr. Brownstone himself.
Unfortunately, this powerful parallel has been largely ignored by most commentators. Simple and sophmoric "phallus" explications pervade the extant literature. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:24 PM Author: Trip very tactful site breaking: the media has confirmed the existence of some late-period cho texts. long the subject of rumour and speculation, a copy of "the book of cho," as it has come to be known, surfaced at the offices of nbc news today. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958071) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:30 PM Author: jade theatre azn i will be waiting with bated breath. has there even been an author who so profoundly affected the american consciousness as the illustrious Cho? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958124) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:47 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor How many times have we heard about "secret" or "hidden" manuscripts, only to be disappointed? And remember the autobiography hoax?
I'll believe it when I see it. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:26 PM Author: Demanding Nibblets dude, as fucked up as this thread really is, I have to say that this is am amazing example of xoxo at its collective best. Those who say that "xoxo is a TTT in decline" and lament for the old days are damn fools. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958089) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:42 PM Author: tan stage ty beleza. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958227) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 6:09 PM Author: motley claret clown becky thanks beleza (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958431) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 6:54 PM Author: razzmatazz kitchen This thread makes me appreciate the level of intelligence present on the board. Most boards are populated by retards and children. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958688) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 7:24 PM Author: Painfully honest alpha area *raises fat arm* (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958869) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:16 PM Author: jade theatre azn *throws chainsaw* (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959204) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:17 PM Author: Brass stirring national The Nagasaki mayor assassinated thread was brilliant. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959212) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:27 PM Author: jade theatre azn sweet (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959257) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:44 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor Not surprisingly, the news coverage is completely biased. On CNN, as just one example, EVERYTHING about Cho is negative. They, and others, have completely demonized him. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958244) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:50 PM Author: motley claret clown becky As I mentioned above, his final piece lampoons the media and their shark-like focus on narratives without facts. They either 1) dont get it or 2) have an incentive not to report on this angle (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958283) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 5:50 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt Sometimes it takes centuries before an artist is truly appreciated. The best we can do is continue to laud his works through these dark times. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958287) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 6:29 PM Author: saffron diverse bawdyhouse i submitted this thread to the university of phoenix and received a PhD in critical theory
tyty xo |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 7:33 PM Author: spectacular party of the first part Why would you want that? Did you run out of toilet paper? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7958932) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:33 PM Author: Sienna autistic heaven nowag U. Pheonix makes the best toilet paper. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959280) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 10:05 PM Author: Glittery filthpig mexican you misspelled "yale" (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959754) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 7:49 PM Author: Aqua submissive double fault I just read this entire thread, and all of your insights into the Cho cannon. While most of these theories have been thrown around for years by Choian scholars, I am happy to see many original ideas about his works. I can only hope that with the addition of these fabeled new late-Choian works to the Cho Portfolio (created either before or during he planned his final, unnamed, performance art) some of these answers, including the author's motives (even if you don't believe they matter) will start to come out. Maybe we can even be so lucky as to be granted another play. Doubtlessly, new material would grant us further insight into all of his works. I am hoping for the long sought-after (and often times dismissed as legend) "Monroe and Lennon" (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959053) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 7:59 PM Author: drab plaza ceo Fellow Scholars,
Forgive me if I missed something in last night's reading, but I find it surprising that no one has discussed the following quote from Brownstone:
"We'll BEEF up our security."
To me this is a clear indication that all three of Cho's works, Richard McBeef, Mr. Brownstone, and his performance art, are meant to be read together.
It's obvious that Brownstone references McBeef, but what's compelling is that Cho's performance art referenced Brownstone. How? By showing that just as the casino had failed to beef up its security, Virginia Tech failed to beef up its own security. Indeed, even the layman are asking "Why didn't Virginia Tech beef up its security earlier?" Thus Cho's messages, though complex, were written so as to be understood by even the plebians. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:03 PM Author: Demanding Nibblets yikes. you are right. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959134) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:09 PM Author: Amethyst angry hospital I also noticed this, however I think it is of paltry significance. I believe we've painted a picture of the author as one to resist such obvious devices. Doubtless that the pedantic and the jejune would seize upon the apparent signficance of this commonality, but to suggest that it had been inserted into the text as a thematic pointer to the reader I think is inconsistent with the hitherto demonstrated complexity of the Choian mind. I would submit that it is more likely a simple easter egg for the pop reader. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959163) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:29 PM Author: Passionate Disgusting Locale please explore any potential wgwag motifs (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959266) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:34 PM Author: jade theatre azn trying to reduce Cho to racial stereotypes really does a disservice to the breadth of his vision. Cho imagines a world where race is all but meaningless; there are motherfuckers, there are catholic priests, women are whores, the decadent nouveau riche...but nowhere do you find discussions of race.
it was suggested at a recent panel i attended the Cho's lack of racial dialogue indicated antipathy to such discussions, and that accordingly Cho was a post-racialist. i think the term too cute by half, but the point bears some note. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:32 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse While I championed this discourse above, I have now grown more than a touch tepid in my adoration. While it is certainly a robust and driven investigation into the works of Mr. Cho, it is ultimately so hopelessly adrift in an anachronistic sea of New Criticism and that which barely surpasses "the modern" as to make it ultimately du passé.
The discourse here fails to even recognize, even in a flippant self-referential manner, the extent to which Cho's critics are steeped in a certain neo-phallologocentrism in which the male dominated discourse does not dominate over that of the female, but operates to its complete exclusion. Control-F "Sue" on this thread, absent a few instances of "issue" it will go unfound. Yet it is Sue who is ultimately driving the action in this piece. It was for want of her love that McBeef slain John's father. Both John and McBeef are reliant on her acceptance to maintain their current places in the power structure of the home (and while this may be a sad archetype of the woman as master of the home and no more, she is a master none the less). She is empowered as symbol, but not as symbolized. This point, needless to say, but scratches the surface. For this thread to have gone to 150 post without a single reference to Feminist theory, Marxist theory, Post-Colonialism or Queer theory is clearly an indictment on the nature of this boards readership and sad commentary on the Cho scholars of tomorrow. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:38 PM Author: jade theatre azn are u hawt? pics?
tyia |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:43 PM Author: jade theatre azn http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0b5_1176937612&p=1
My god...today was his Mona Lisa. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 11:11 PM Author: Aqua submissive double fault What was he trying to say by writing the wrong zip codes? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960200) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:30 AM Author: jade theatre azn Cho was always fascinated by Wittengenstein. Methinks he is trying to make a point about numbers that he often touched upon in his other works. Just as his plays show us that many terms, like "guilt" for example, have no meaning but that which we give it. Here, Cho playfully points out that numbers are not so dissimilar. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960739) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:00 AM Author: Aqua submissive double fault Such as the hyperbolic contrast between "a hundred billion" chances "we" could have avoided "it" against his "one option" left? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960927) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 9:26 AM Author: jade theatre azn now you're catching on. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7962107) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:31 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Cho recognized that the system was inherently flawed but was capable of correcting the actions of others to maintain its hegemony. Rather than returning the envelope to sender and exposing itself as helpless, the system simply adjusts to the outside foibles and never admits defeat. I believe this is his first work on canvas. |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 8:51 PM Author: Histrionic bisexual corn cake jewess lol i love you faggots. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959370) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 9:36 PM Author: Ungodly Space A heretofore overlooked facet of Cho studies is the influence Brazilian philosopher of education Paulo Freire had on the late author.
Freire's most influential work, "Pedagogy of the Oppressed," is a strident critique of the oppressive nature of Western education. The book examines two ideas: the "banking" conception of education, which he decries, and the "dialogic" conception of education, which he espouses. In "banking" education--traditional Western education--the student is nothing but a bank for knowledge that the teacher deposits in him. Banking education dehumanizes the student, reducing him to a receptacle, opening him to oppression by the de facto oligarchy controlling society. "Dialogic" education, on the other hand, emphasizes the process of conscientization, in which the teacher and student, through an active dialogue mediated by the broader world context, simultaneously learn from and educate one another. In stark contrast to banking education, dialogic education makes the student an active participant in his own learning, equipping him with the tools to throw off the yoke of oppression by enabling him to self-actualize.
With this introduction, the Freirean symbology of "Mr. Brownstone" becomes clear. Brownstone himself is obviously a staunch adherent of banking education, and the protagonists are his victims. Cho hammers this point home by making Brownstone not simply a hated teacher but also an "ass-rapist." Ass rape, for Cho, is a metaphor for banking education itself: the act of ass rape dehumanizes its victims, just as banking education dehumanizes students. The violence of ass rape and the clear inequality between victim and perpetrator are symbols of the oppressive power of banking education. And just as ass rape turns the victim into a mere receptacle of the rapist's semen, so does banking education turn the student into a mere receptacle of the knowledge the teacher imparts to him.
Our protagonists recognize their role in the banking system of education, and they wish to move beyond it to a dialogic system. One laments that he was given detention for telling a joke--a punishment possible only in a banking system, for in a dialogic system, the joke would be analyzed, picked apart, exposed to the world for the purpose of consciousness-raising. Another talks of kicking that "REAL MUTHAFUCKER," Brownstone, "down the line"--he realizes that he is being oppressed by banking education, and he wants to move on to a dialogic system that will allow him to mature as a human being. At the play's climax, our protagonists have this goal in their grasp, symbolized by the winning ticket. But Brownstone, whom one protagonist accurately describes as a "parasite," frustrates their plans for shedding the yoke of oppression by turning them in to the oligarchical casino, which always has the odds in its favor. |
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Date: April 20th, 2007 4:04 PM Author: vivacious step-uncle's house genital piercing Subject: i was looking for this, im sad i had to find it here though. Yes, killings were at a school, Brownstone and McBeef written within educational framework. So I like the pedagogy angle, though I think you are mislead by xoxohth bias against ttt's into casting cho (vt student) as victim of banking system of education.
I'd argue that Cho was in a dialogic system, but a because he was a complete psycho, what would normally be a rewarding education experience and consequent maturation was traumatic.
Cho never made the symbolic leap to language or clearly differentiated internal and external states. Cho did not speak or emote to anyone. No one knew Cho was a menace... not his shrinks, not the popo, not his roommates, not his neighbors, not his family, no one except his English teachers and classmates. It is only through his plays and poems that he uses language... and it is through those first forays that he receives most resistance.
Thats why his coursework is the only revealing key to understanding this freak & why its of interest to deconstruct the plays. Since MSNBC is not going to do it I went googling, freud + mcbeef, lacan + brownstone. Seriously. And here I am, in the virtual trainwreck named autoadmit.
What are you like? Y'all are like an online Stanford Prison Experiment. Especially with xoxohth admin producing papers about you. My prediction: communally you will keep goading each individual into topping the last barely legal crimes... until you stop yourselves, or more likely, someone else puts a stop to it. |
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Date: April 20th, 2007 4:09 PM Author: motley claret clown becky welcome to xoxo. Thoughts on pork chops? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7971258) |
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Date: November 2nd, 2007 6:05 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt not sure why, but this is my favorite post on the thread. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8844813) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 10:02 PM Author: heady crystalline immigrant Bump for the noobs...this is what xoxo is all about. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959732) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 10:14 PM Author: Ungodly Space Another bump for noobs. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7959800) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 10:54 PM Author: Ungodly Space (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960081) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 11:18 PM Author: mauve crusty cuck One of the best four or five threads I've ever read here. Clearly, some good has come out of this tragedy. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960260) |
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Date: April 18th, 2007 11:23 PM Author: drab plaza ceo Dear Scholars,
What do you make of the recent suggestions that Cho modeled his work after a South Korean movie named "Oldboy?" Whoever made such a statement clearly does not know the difference between imitation and parody.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/updates-on-virginia-tech/ |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:32 AM Author: jade theatre azn Cho's love for hidden pop culture easter eggs has already been discussed on this thread ad nauseum, sir. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960749) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:10 AM Author: Boyish internet-worthy whorehouse The Cho video released today again makes mention of Cho being "fucked", presumably by malevolent forces within VTech. Much like in Brownstone and McBeef, we have a central theme of the principal character being powerless to stop the "ass-raping" at the hands of an authority figure, be it the administration/faculty (Brownstone), or the Jocks (Mcbeef)- remember McBeef was an ex-football player, and a "giant tree trunk piece of ass." While the characters in the plays were never able to fight back, Cho was able to destroy his oppressors in his final work. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960635) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:16 AM Author: Ungodly Space Consider the possible influence of Langston Hughes, with whom Cho was undoubtedly familiar, on his work.
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore-- And then run? Does it stink like rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over-- like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags like a heavy load.
Or does it explode? |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:34 AM Author: jade theatre azn does it get MOTHERFUCKING FUCKED IN THE ASS? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960763) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:33 AM Author: Swollen locus Well I'll be damned. 180s to each and every last one of you. This is some next-level shit. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7960754) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:11 AM Author: Aqua submissive double fault I wish I were better versed in literary criticism to take part in it. The only class I have really ever had that would allow me to contribute at all was the UG course 008:078: "Early Works of Cho." I got a B- in it... (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7961008) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:07 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan I wouldn't be too worried. Cho Studies is a uniquely difficult field to wrap your head around at first, but once you've worked through a few of his more difficult pieces, it becomes second nature. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7962863) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 12:09 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse That's right.
Richard McBeef makes Finnegan's Wake look like The Chocolate War by comparison. |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:06 PM Author: arousing olive jap fortuitous meteor We had a Cho survey class that was a prerequisite for the upper-level seminar. Donaldson taught the seminar (this was before the accident, so you could actually follow him), and would focus exclusively on either McBeef or Brownstone each semester. I got an A- in Intro. to Cho, so I only made it to the waitlist -- but they did actually take a few people off the wait list, and I was in the next group of three that he'd select one from on the basis of a 500-word essay. He never called for our essays but I wrote mine anyway. It was pretty good but, as I say, I never got to use it. In high school I had a teacher who called me a "young, aspiring Cho." Pretty high praise, I don't mind saying. Do I remind you at all of Cho? Is Cho more a "guys' writer" than a "chick author"? A lot of girls seem notto like him. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963253) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 8:21 AM Author: sable piazza http://thisplayisgaylol.ytmnsfw.com/?66b0b31551e9b0a730fe18ececec1dd9 (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7962044) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:15 PM Author: Green church dog poop Do you know the director of that production? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963313) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 9:28 AM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) Leech, fart, parasite, kidney stone, intestine, sphincter, feces. Our collective eagerness to find the most convoluted among the multiplicity of meanings within the Cho corpus may have caused some of us to disregard the most fruitful, if obvious, paths of inquiry. One leitmotif in Mr. Brownstone that has received too little critical attention is the pronounced and obvious physicality of the title character. John, Joe, and Jane's preferred appellations for Mr. Brownstone include fart, leech, and parasite. All of these pet names are unpleasant indicators of the cold hard dictates of age and biology. Furthermore, John imagines Brownstone's efforts at defecation in great, gruesome, detail (a constipated Brownstone pushing, sweating, clenching his teeth and screaming as green moldy shit rips his sphincter). These details betray, at the very least, the deep-seated ambivalence between the illusion of youthful "invulnerability" and the inevitable and mechanical rapacity of time. The protagonists' hatred for Brownstone, then, contains at least the germ of future self-hatred. The things lost by the protagonists, innocence, the promise of a better tomorrow, are familiar disappointments as life wears on. The jackpot may be conceptualized as a youthful attempt to devise an "exit strategy" to escape the throes of the inevitable, and may prefigure the later Cho performance. |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:19 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth If any engish phd students are looking for a thesis topic, they should consider
Meat Beat Manifesto: Towards a Lyrical and Rhythmic Understanding of Richard McBeef. |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:26 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Me and Richard McBeef: The self, the signified and the psycho rapist murderer in early Cho.
Within, without, with a chainsaw: The Lacanian Gaze in modern Cho. |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:30 PM Author: Charismatic bright pisswyrm newt Laura Mulvey would rightly criticize your thesis attempts as being too male-centric. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963395) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:36 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse I liked the second one better anyway.
Also, apparently so would I (see me, posting while on cold medicine, supra). |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:33 PM Author: motley claret clown becky To Beef Or Not To Beef: An Analysis of Cho's Final Performance As Metaphor For Both Richard McBeef and John (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963411) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:38 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse McBeef, its what's for dinner: Fast food culture and the decay of the Rockwellian familial archetype in Cho's Richard McBeef. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963434) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:45 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Big Mac, McBeef, A Quarterpounder with some Cheese: the McDonaldsization for instant gratification from storytelling in recent productions of Chos classic. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963481) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:47 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth you suck at this (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963498) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:52 PM Author: motley claret clown becky The letters 'B' 'i' 'g' 'M' 'a' 'c' do not mean Big Mac. They are simply an agreed upon symbol that stand in for the meaning Big Mac. In the same way, the word Big Mac only has meaning in contrast to everything that is not-Big Mac. The word/sign Big Mac distinguishes what is meant by Big Mac from everything that is not-Big Mac.
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:53 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan This goes back to the mention of Baudrillard earlier in the thread, I think. Well played. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963528) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:58 PM Author: motley claret clown becky Imagine a small boy from the country who has never seen McDonalds. Looking at the menu, he sees a filet o fish and shouts, "Look, mommy, a Big Mac!" "No dear," his mother answers, "that's a filet o fish." A little farther down the menu, the boy sees a double cheeseburger. Less certain, he says, "Mommy, is that a filet o fish or a Big Mac?" "No dear," she answers, and so the boy's understanding of what is meant by the word Big Mac grows. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963561) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:54 PM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) Grad student deconstructs take out menu. http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27794 |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:49 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Eggo, ergo, I'll go: Secular defeatism in modern breakfast culture as le raison d'etre of Cho's McBeef. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963505) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:55 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth "Ew, Who McBeefed?": Cho's Proustian Scent Memories. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963542) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:59 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse "Man to man up your ass, bud:" McBeef and the Cover-2, a cautionary tale. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963563) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:03 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth awesome (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963584) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:51 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Only here could I mix this metaphor... (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963840) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:27 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan At first, I thought a matchup zone joke would have been funnier, but then I remembered that McBeef had played pro football for three weeks.
You're on tenure track in McBeef studies at Yale with a dissertation like that. |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:31 PM Author: dashing mental disorder Nice. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963712) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:38 PM Author: Trip very tactful site haha. for a second i thought cover-2 was some new literary term i'd never heard of. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963752) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:39 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan I missed this one earlier. Excellent. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963755) |
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Date: April 24th, 2007 5:28 PM Author: Swollen locus *ding*ding*ding* we have a winner. |
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Date: June 21st, 2007 1:07 PM Author: white high-end son of senegal useless brakes lol (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8281818) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:41 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth Those are weak, try:
A Pair of Dicks: A Comparative Study of Tension Between the the Richards Nixon and McBeef and the Youth Culture of Their Times.
Where's the McBeef: The Banana Cereal Bar as a Phallic Construct.
Edit: I like the one right aove. |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:44 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan Dancing with Mr. Brownstone: A Critical Analysis of Stage Movement in Theatre-in-the-Round Productions of Cho (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963471) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:54 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse A Three Story Brownstone Walk-Up: Trivariate story telling in Cho's Brownstone and the Synoptic Gospels of John, Jane and Joe. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963531) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:41 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan Le deuxième sexe: The Misogynist Portrayal of Women in Traditionalist Performances of Richard McBeef. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963452) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:44 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth God Does Play Dice: A Stochastic Analysis of A Brownstonian Impaction on Common Games of Chance. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963472) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:45 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan 180 (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963479) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:46 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth Interdisciplinary shit is the new hotness. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963484) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:57 PM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) Clenched Sphincter: Toward a Freudian Analytics of Bowel Movements in Mr. Brownstone. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963553) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:03 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Of Quill Pens and Quarter Pounders: Bowel stoppage as writers' block in Cho's Brownstone and McBeef. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963583) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:06 PM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) McBeef is Murder, Muthafucker: Decoding the Pompadour in Cho's Post-Fordist Parodies. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963600) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 1:55 PM Author: Amethyst angry hospital Rebuilding Mr. Brownstone: Toward a Choian Paradigm of Gentrification and New Urbanism (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963539) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:23 PM Author: Trip very tactful site One Fruity Day: The Escape from Homonormative Negotiation Structures in Richard McBeef (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963678) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:26 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan Fuck You, DAD!: The Oedipal Subtext of Richard McBeef (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963686) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:27 PM Author: Maroon Razzle Ticket Booth thats an auto a (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963691) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:27 PM Author: motley claret clown becky From Cereal Bar to Honey-poo: the Triumvirate of Mastication, Digestion and Defecation as Sexual Metaphor (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963692) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:35 PM Author: Cerebral Faggot Firefighter Coldplay Fan A Rambunctious Pubescent Boy: The Intersection of r@ygold and Cho Studies (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963728) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:03 PM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) From Green Shit to Brownstone: The Role of Color Theory in Cho-ian Discursive Formation. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963898) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 2:44 PM Author: ruinous phenotype (eighties fan) I Don't Think You're Ready for this Jelly: Delineating the Uncertain Ontological Boundaries of the Cho Canon. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7963799) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:39 PM Author: jade theatre azn Man-to-man up your ass: Choian perspectives on the collective sublimation of gender identity and homoeroticism in a post-colonial world. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7964073) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:42 PM Author: motley claret clown becky A Five Dollar Remote: A Libertarian Defense of Man on Man Assault and Sexual Worth (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7964096) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:42 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Honey bear, honey pot, honey poo: Milne's Winnie the Pooh, Ensler's Vagina Monologues and Cho's McBeef, a comparative analysis. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7964095) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 3:44 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse "Will it ever stop? Yo, I don't know:" Whiteness, hip-hop culture and child molestation in the early works of Cho. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7964109) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 4:00 PM Author: motley claret clown becky A Postfeminist Account of the Terrorization of Manner and Girth in Patriarchical Theater. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7964171) |
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Date: April 19th, 2007 4:01 PM Author: Vibrant Foreskin Theater Hermeneutics of Hate: Erie Exegeses of Brownstone and McBeef
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Date: April 20th, 2007 2:26 PM Author: tan stage (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7970606) |
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Date: April 24th, 2007 5:24 PM Author: 180 lodge chad http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/richard-mcbeef.php (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7994521) |
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Date: April 24th, 2007 5:33 PM Author: glassy talking stain meetinghouse Inferior to the better work here, but funny in parts...
"It is on page two that we are introduced to the boating accident that claimed the life of John's father; nautical disasters being a theme common in works of Cho Seung-Hui such as I Fucking Kill the Cruise Ship and Sink, Sink, Sink, Murder, Die, Die, Death Fucker (also available in Crib Notes)."
"In a way, McBeef represents the American middle-aged male: past his prime with no dreams and a tree trunk piece of ass."
"Actors, or faggots (as I call them)"
Were laugh worthy. |
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Date: April 24th, 2007 5:35 PM Author: Titillating French Church Building This thread is only about 700 times more entertaining than that treatment. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#7994562) |
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Date: May 18th, 2007 11:18 PM Author: galvanic macaca electric furnace Meat Beat Manifesto! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8138524) |
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Date: August 16th, 2007 4:46 PM Author: Odious wagecucks bump for xoxo's GOLDEN AGE (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8523881) |
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Date: August 16th, 2007 5:09 PM Author: 180 lodge chad Potentially the last Great Thread. Sad. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8524016) |
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Date: September 20th, 2007 7:40 PM Author: Territorial Bistre Liquid Oxygen Nursing Home titcr (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8668371) |
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Date: August 24th, 2007 4:48 AM Author: Mustard Hilarious Brethren Reading Party bump of a classic. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8553381) |
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Date: August 24th, 2007 4:58 AM Author: soul-stirring ratface dysfunction plz discuss the wgwag implications of such a play (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8553382) |
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Date: October 19th, 2007 3:14 PM Author: Twinkling Pit ohhai
im bumping u
kthxbai |
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Date: October 22nd, 2007 4:45 AM Author: appetizing irate native bump for anon's other amazing thread. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8799378) |
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Date: October 22nd, 2007 9:48 AM Author: irradiated hall this one deserves a bump (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8799518) |
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Date: November 2nd, 2007 6:26 PM Author: jade theatre azn i miss the days when xoxohth was compelling enough i trolled it constantly. i'm glad that i could participate in a thread like this before the board died. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8844896) |
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Date: November 26th, 2007 11:50 AM Author: Trip very tactful site (The manner and girth frightens her.) (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#8938426) |
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Date: January 23rd, 2008 3:47 AM Author: chrome deranged halford "I obviously don't dispute the chilling realism in McBeef, best exemplified by the eponymous stepfather's seamless transferance of his lust from child to mother. We have all, of course, lived this same circumstance, in some fashion. Thus the universal resonance of McBeef. However, you seem to be conflating accessibility, even popularity, with genius. To say that McBeef is "clearly a better piece" is simply untenable, and against the great weight of critical response." best post on record at xoxo. |
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Date: February 21st, 2008 1:07 AM Author: Henna stag film (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9361509) |
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Date: February 21st, 2008 2:09 AM Author: Henna stag film We are all Choians now. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9361776) |
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Date: February 21st, 2008 11:12 AM Author: Pale bossy tank It is either ironic (or predictable) (or both) that, thanks to XO and similar outfits, this misanthropic loner who no one gave a rat's ass about while he lived has attained the recognition he craved, but never received, in real life. To get attention on a grand-scale, which is obviously what he craved, he had to kill a large number of people in a macabre, gory way. And Cho is remembered far more widely than his victims (except for Librescu), I think because society is biased towards the active role taken by a Cho (and Librescu) in the affair.
I think a lot of people relate to Cho because he experienced the banal experience of growing up we all did, felt the same pain of being maladjusted and ill-equipped to deal with a sensualist, superficial, and vulgar world that we all did, but internalized it much more deeply, felt the same frustrated sexual urgings, rootlessness, and hatred but observed it all from a painful distance which only intensified it. He was playing by rules which assumed he had become a well-adjusted adult by the time he was 18, in a society where adulthood is ill-defined and where the conventions attached to it in Cho's home country (marriage, employment, respect) are not freely distributed (as they would be in Korea) but rather must be struggled for.
We all have a little bit of this sinful, heartless, taciturn, horny son of a bitch in us, which is terrifying. He craved order, dignity, and respect, values cherished in Korea but scorned in the U.S., so I bet he felt little compunction about taking out people who didn't play by the rules he felt simply have to exist. |
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Date: February 21st, 2008 11:37 AM Author: Twinkling Pit awful. please remove this immediately. it's unsightly. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9362805) |
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Date: February 21st, 2008 11:42 AM Author: Henna stag film agreed (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9362826) |
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Date: February 21st, 2008 11:46 AM Author: Contagious kitty boiling water good (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9362844) |
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Date: March 27th, 2008 11:16 PM Author: slimy sanctuary good thread (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9542204) |
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Date: April 15th, 2008 9:09 AM Author: cobalt bespoke marketing idea place of business (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9631144) |
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Date: April 16th, 2008 10:20 AM Author: jade theatre azn in tribute of the finest day in xoxohth's history. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9636721) |
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Date: April 16th, 2008 3:34 PM Author: Insane Concupiscible Corner Volcanic Crater I was thinking of this thread this morning. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#9638139) |
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Date: November 4th, 2026 9:56 PM Author: Historical American (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#50233471) |
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Date: November 4th, 2026 9:59 PM Author: nyuug LOL WHAT THE FUCK (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=616148&forum_id=2#50233480) |