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XO Audiophile Poll: Do you believe DACs make a difference?
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Date: October 20th, 2026 1:55 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Does anyone think a 100 dollar DAC and a 2000 dollar DAC sound different? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198401) |
Date: October 20th, 2026 2:02 PM Author: titillating frum gas station knife of course they make a difference. you know nothing of Engineering. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198417) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:07 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Can you tell the difference in a blind test?
What external DAC are you rocking right now? |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:10 PM Author: titillating frum gas station knife I don't have an external component DAC but I have a receiver and preamp and all that. DACs don't have to external to be quality but there are definitely shitty low-quality ones. that's why Apple Airpods sound better than an equivalent chinky product, because Apple has superior DAC in theirs. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198433) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:17 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building All the research shows that basically all shitty DACs were phased outside decades ago. We're talking about home stereo setups not earbuds off of Amazon. If you have an integrated DAC that doesn't mean it's bad. I have an integrated DAC. My question is should I upgrade and does anyone believe you can really hear a difference? It's obviously a fun experiment to find out if you can hear a difference at all between a decent or good DAC and an amazing DAC. I'm pretty skeptical that there's any difference. I would be more shocked to learn that in a blind test people could hear the difference between a hundred dollar DAC and a 2000 dollar one. But you seem happy with the DAC that came with your amplifier. I'm sure it's fine. And actually since I'm a DAC skeptic my guess is that yours is just as good as any other DAC and no one would ever know the difference. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198441) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:25 PM Author: animeboi (.) I swear by my Bricasti DAC and Machina Dynamica Ultra Signature Version of the Clever Little Clock. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198454) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:27 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building What does the Clock do (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198458) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:30 PM Author: animeboi (.) The Clever Little Clock is a battery-powered travel clock that's been modified using a number of highly specialized techniques. The Clever Little Clock does not plug into the wall and has no influence on house wiring, audio components, cables, interconnects, power cords or acoustic waves in the room. Yet the Clever Little Clock has a pronounced affect on the sound in the room. In addition, the picture quality any video system will be improved - the video picture will be clearer, with better color saturation and contrast, with blacker blacks, more realistic skin tone and fabric texture, etc.
Place the clock anywhere in your listening room. You will hear less distortion, more information, a deeper, more coherent soundstage and more air. One or more additional Clever Little Clocks will further improve the sound. The Clever Little Clock provides excellent results for the car's stereo/FM radio system.
The Clever Little Clock is pre-set by Machina Dynamica and should NOT be re-set or adjusted in any way.
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:40 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Do you really think an external clock improves the sound? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198471) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:46 PM Author: animeboi (.) Yes whenever I play my Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab Gold CD reissue of Cheap Trick: Live at the Budokan with the Clock in the room I can hear warmer tones and decreased sibilance. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198479) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 3:03 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Lmao 180 flame (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198502) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 5:55 PM Author: canary balding newt (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198758) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 2:52 PM Author: Accurate at predicting vs Measures of probability (gunneratttt) Huge difference. Like anything else in audio you can reach diminishing returns very quickly, but the DACs in a receiver are usually where you'll see improvement as you step up in quality. At the low to mid range it's often where you'll most improvment per dollar spent. All decent amps work pretty good but a low end DAC can sound like an cassette tape. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198485) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 3:02 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Sure like an ultra cheap Chinese crap DAC that came in a $40 device on Amazon I'm sure it sucks. But if you have a $500 receiver that thing has the exact same chip in it as a $2000 standalone external DAC. There are only something like 4 serious DAC chips in the world and they each have a value of about $10. So what you're paying for is essentially all the components around the DAC, all the additional crap that doesn't actually do any conversion but does... Stuff.
Glad we agree the really expensive stuff is diminishing returns. The super cheap stuff is, well, super cheap. And somewhere between 100 bucks and 1000 is pretty much the entire range of audible differences possible between units that are all using the exact same conversion chips.
I think the question ought to be between a 100, a 500, and a 1000 dollar standalone DAC can any difference be heard at all. My gut says no but I have never A/B'd this. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 3:27 PM Author: Accurate at predicting vs Measures of probability (gunneratttt) There's diminishing but measurable returns for any high end product. Can you name anything where you're seeing the same improvment dollar for dollar going from high-end to ultra-high that you see going from budget to mid-range?
This is going to turn into your SACD thread. I think your minds made up and even if someone provides data proving the difference is measurable and perceptible you'll insist it's not. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 3:49 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building My mind isn't made up. I haven't A/B'd it yet. I would say based on the research it's very unlikely but not impossible. There's no way for me to decide without hearing it for myself. I saw one study that showed that respondents were literally guessing and had no idea but the experiment did not seem fully scientific so I couldn't trust it outright. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198544) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 4:14 PM Author: Accurate at predicting vs Measures of probability (gunneratttt) One of the issues with audio is that it has to do with perception, which varies dramatically, and not just good and bad, but different aspects. There is always a measurable difference, but whether and to what degree that matters is going to vary from person to person.
Think of something like color and clarity. One person can perceive color spectrum extraordinarily well but has poor clarity, and the other has a poor ability to see the color spectrum but excellent clarity. If there are two paints, one was superior color consistency and one with superior adhesion, the spectrum guy might say the consistent paint is better because the other is wavy and looks smudged. The clarity guy will think he's crazy, the color is perfectly consistent to him, but the paint with poor adhesion applies all bumpy and is covered in craters and imperfections.
Likewise, you may sit down and A/B something and think they're identical any everyone who says they hear a difference is lying. But they truly might be able to and the data could prove it. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 4:26 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building That's why I phrased the question as is there a difference rather than is one better than another. The enthusiasts who buy lots of DACs claim to hear a difference. But there is also countervailing data suggesting that the differences are imperceptible and audiophiles are hallucinating (wouldn't be the first time).
Interestingly the companies who make DACs typically suggest consumers don't look at the raw data and instead say you should rely on the feel. At a certain price point the stats are all good but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a great DAC. Another major selling point is the method of conversion such as R2R. People make claims like a ladder DAC sounds better with bright speakers because it smooths out the top end.
Who knows if any of these claims are real though? There ought to be better studies on this. Some studies say for sure that no one can reliably tell the difference. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 4:36 PM Author: Irate people who are hurt i think diminishing returns start earlier in dacs than almost anything for reasons mentioned above but it depends on the quality of the rest of ur systenm and what kind of listening u do. if ur investing a lot into ur system anyways and ur doing "serious listening" (lol) then u don't want a shit dac to be the bottleneck.
even as someone with a high end system i acknowledge that basic consumer audio has caught up a lot. for someone casually listening while they're cooking dinner or something a stereo pair of sonos fives goes a long way. investing a lot into a sound system probably made a big difference 50 years ago when u had to deal with the finnickiness of vinyl and technology was generally shittier, like the term "high fidelity" must have really meant something in the past in the same way "hdtv" really meant something in 2000. now u can get great clarity very easily, and u might a/b test two components against each other and decide that u like one more but if ur just listening casually u won't really be able to tell the difference.
good speakers still make a difference and a nice preamp can add a lot. if u're using a preamp i'd put $$ there first and let that color the system instead of the dac. if u're using ur dac as a preamp or just using a passive preamp in between then a nicer dac makes more sense. also dacs depreciate faster than any part of the system besides transports so there's a built in penalty to investing a ton into an amazing dac. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 4:49 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building This seems pretty cr.
What DAC should I buy? I just want want to try an external DAC. I have a pretty good amplifier and speakers. My transport only has optical out, no coaxial. I'm looking at the Schiit Modi but I could be swayed to get something different. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 4:58 PM Author: Irate people who are hurt out the rest of ur system (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198670) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 5:05 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building No I don't want to get into the weeds I just want a DAC rec. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198682) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 5:24 PM Author: Irate people who are hurt like i said it depends on the rest of ur system, "pretty good amplifier and speakers" could mean anything depending on who ur talking to. if ur looking at schiit modi that's probably fine and honestly a good transport with a good dac is probably sufficient at that point, i wouldn't necessarily get an external dac on the notion that a separate box is necessarily better.
if ur listening on expensive focals then maybe something better but i assume ur not. denafrips is pretty good for "entry level high end" with a very liquid used market with decent prices, and imo that's as much as most people could possibly need even on a great system, again unless u're going no preamp. old version of the ares u could probably get for like $500 used. |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 6:15 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building I'm honestly not that into the hobby to put that much money down. I got like two hundred bucks but if I was really crazy I'd go up to 3. I don't think it would matter to me much. Going from the integrated DAC in my transport to any external DAC is like a space age leap forward from where I am now. Not so sold that I would go all out and spend real money. Let's see how I feel after the first step. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198793) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 6:16 PM Author: Slap-happy electric school cafeteria fortuitous meteor I used to have like a really fucking expensive dac, and multiple pairs of audiophile headphones and all that other stuff, but then I got old and braindamaged and dull and less into music. I suppose a lot has died inside me since those days. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198796) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 6:19 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building That's why I'm here to rebuild your confidence and get you out on the road. Pussy is gay, Zozo even gayer. But Art really matters, fren. Art gives people meaning. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198799) |
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Date: October 27th, 2026 11:31 PM Author: Vermilion space tcr. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50208445) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 4:38 PM Author: Flirting infuriating stock car station No (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198643) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 5:19 PM Author: Slap-happy electric school cafeteria fortuitous meteor There are legitimate technical Engineering differences between the high end ones and the mid to low. But whether that translates into perceptible difference, I'm not sure. I think the difference between $50-$500 is probably meaningful. $500 to $2000 is doubtful in terms of audible difference, but you are getting other improvements in functionality and build quality. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198706) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 5:22 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building A $200 DAC has lots of inputs and functionality. It's also built like a tank. Everyone agrees going from 500 to 2k is imperceptible. It's pretty much there are ultra shitty DACs and now really good ones that start at around a hundred dollars. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198711) |
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Date: October 20th, 2026 5:28 PM Author: Accurate at predicting vs Measures of probability (gunneratttt) (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50198720) |
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Date: October 27th, 2026 11:29 PM Author: Beta home Do DACs make a difference? Yes, absolutely.
Does a 100 dollar DAC and a 2000 dollar DAC sound different? These days, no. DACs are basically solved. (So are amps FWIW.) In 2026, cheap external DACs measure basically perfect.
That said, it can be "worth" it to get an expensive one if it's got enough features. I've got an RME ADI-2 DAC FS. I got it used and I paid $700 for it. I use it as a preamp, it's got a sick spectrum analyzer, it has 5 bands of parametric equalization, and it's got the best loudness compensation ever devised AFAICT. |
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Date: October 27th, 2026 11:41 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building What the fuck is loudness compensation (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50208461) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 12:21 AM Author: Beta home Human hearing isn't linear - it's not as sensitive to bass & treble at lower volumes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
If you listen at lower levels, it's not a bad idea to dial up the bass & treble. A fair amount of older receivers had a loudness button but it was mostly just a fixed bass bump - the bass would still be boosted if you turned up the volume, which isn't really what you want.
A number of Yamahas can sort of do it "right", but it's not remote controlled.
With the RME's loudness feature, you can dial in just how much of a bass & treble boost you want, and you can also set where it's flat. And unlike the Yamahas, you can control it with the remote.
https://rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dac_e.pdf (page 14) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 12:36 AM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building I had a Panasonic as a kid with a bass boost button. Never cared for how it sounded. I have a subwoofer anyway so I don't feel like it's missing. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50208526) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 2:12 AM Author: Beta home The RME feature is pretty subtle IME. If someone came over and listened to my stereo and I didn't tell them that the bass was being boosted at low volumes, they probably wouldn't notice.
I've got a Yamaha with a loudness knob in my bedroom. That one is more obvious/dramatic than the RME.
I'm pretty sure a lot of lifestyle products (like Bluetooth speakers) do something pretty similar. |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 2:15 AM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building I am pretty sure I don't need this feature. I'm doing pretty good. I ended up going optical out of my transport into my receiver. I didn't realize it had a built in DAC. Seems to be working pretty good. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50208672) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 2:30 AM Author: Beta home It's a little underwhelming in my living room system TBH. It makes more sense to have loudness compensation in my bedroom because I listen at lower levels in there.
The DAC in your receiver is probably completely fine unless your receiver is junk. |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 2:33 AM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building It sounds a lot better than the DAC that came in my CD transport. But not as good as the DAC in another RME product I own but it's not at the house. It uses a Wolfson chip fwiw.
Recommend me some open ear headphones. I'm looking at the Sennies HD line. I've never had open ear before. Always been a closed back guy but apparently they're trash. |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 2:55 AM Author: Beta home I'm not a huge headphone guy. I do prefer open ear though. I have some Grados. Sennheisers seem like they're more popular.
I do think headphones benefit a lot from applying parametric EQ. I've done PEQ on both my Grados and a pair of Koss Bluetooth Porta Pros and I've been very happy with the results. Knowing what a difference PEQ makes, I don't think I'd buy a pair of headphones if someone hasn't measured them.
Check out https://www.autoeq.app/
That site has a big database of headphone measurements and some info on how to apply PEQ |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 2:58 AM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building You seem pretty fascinated by EQ. I don't like dorking with it. I just let the mixing engineer do his job. I don't really want to boost and cut shit myself. My brother actually puts a massive EQ shift on his audio and I always think it sounds like shit but he's real proud of it or something stupid. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50208702) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 3:08 AM Author: Beta home EQ makes a bigger difference than DACs & amps. The only things more important are the speakers & room.
And the point of it isn't to fix what the studio recorded. The point is to fix issues with your speakers & room. |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 3:17 AM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building What are the issues with my speakers and the room (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50208713) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 5:48 PM Author: Beta home No such thing as perfect speakers or a perfect room. Every room has peaks & nulls. While you can't power out of a null, EQ does let you tame peaks & level out the response of speakers.
Today's sophisticated EQ schemes get you closer to perfect without spending a fortune on speakers & room treatment |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 5:50 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Seems like acoustic treatment would get you further along than sophisticated room EQ (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210457) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 6:15 PM Author: Beta home Room correction is cheaper (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210522) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 6:58 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building I doubt that (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210577) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 7:54 PM Author: Beta home A miniDSP Flex w/ Dirac is around $1k
You can certainly do some room treatment for less than that, but you're not going to get a room fully treated for less than that |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 7:56 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building I've done it m8 (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210825) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 8:01 PM Author: Beta home csb (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210833) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 5:50 PM Author: Duck-like Orchid Casino RME is solid. Super reliable German engineering. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210456) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 5:50 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building A top tier brand imo (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210459) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 5:57 PM Author: Duck-like Orchid Casino For a portable DAC you can get their old Babyface line for like $300 and it's totally pro (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210478) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 6:00 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building Cr they don't fuck around. I have some really old RME stuff that's still better than almost anything on the market today. No amount of upgrade features can overtake the fundamentals. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210487) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 6:05 PM Author: Beta home Well engineered and documented really well
The manual I linked above is probably the best manual I've ever read |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 6:36 PM Author: citrine glittery toaster stead does my onkyo tx-nr6100 have a decent enough dac? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210539) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 6:59 PM Author: apoplectic razzmatazz church building The problem with Onkyos is that they insert a random 2 second pause between songs. Depends on the model and year though. But they have a really low quality chip. Sound though is kind of 180. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=5914159&forum_id=2#50210581) |
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Date: October 28th, 2026 7:55 PM Author: Beta home ASR did not like the TX-NR7100
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/onkyo-tx-nr7100-avr-review.56300/ |