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There is no anti-asian bias in college admissions
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Date: February 19th, 2005 3:58 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story Harvard is like 25% asian! You asians are starting to remind me of the greedy Jews, who are like 30% of Harvard. Be happy with your enormous chunk of pie and sit the fuck down, or else found your own elite college. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2166750) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 4:06 PM Author: brass irradiated digit ratio I don't complain.
I'm not sure if Indian counts for Asian these days, though. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2166780) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 4:12 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story No, it does not. And considering that India and China will soon be vicious rivals, you might want to widen that distinction. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2166806) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 4:13 PM Author: brass irradiated digit ratio Indeed. Yet, many if not most college apps do not include that distinction. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2166813) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 4:42 PM Author: Vigorous Tanning Salon Sound Barrier (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2166898) |
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Date: March 1st, 2005 9:27 AM Author: diverse hall I always thought you were a WASPy kinda guy o_O. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2232612) |
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Date: March 4th, 2005 10:20 AM Author: aphrodisiac half-breed glad I wasn't the only one with that impression. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2255705) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 4:20 PM Author: pearly jap Wow, you sound quite angry and bitter.
EDIT: I couldn't care less, personally, but if you really think that the title of the OP is accurate, look at the *ratios*. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2166837) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 5:59 PM Author: poppy electric resort faggot firefighter What petrodollar states is true. Asians like 'hero' should stop whining since they are already overrepresented and doing quite well wherever in college. You can't even get blacks and hispanics, the folks least likely to have college degrees and hurting the most, into colleges. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167193) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 6:19 PM Author: Vigorous Tanning Salon Sound Barrier (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167272) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 6:40 PM Author: pearly jap Yes, this is a reasonably good synopsis of what is going on. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167387) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 6:37 PM Author: pearly jap ltorivia485, petrodollar argues (incorrectly) that there is not an anti-Asian bias in admissions. He/she errs by not considering the ratio of Asians applying versus those admitted. This is a very basic error in reasoning and I am surprised to hear it repeated over and over again, especially after the last thread.
Two things. The first is that Asians face bias because they have to reach higher standards. I don't know how you can realistically dispute this. The second is that nobody really cares since they are ORM anyway. You usually hear a poster state one or the other, but not both. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167373) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 7:18 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story You're forgetting that Asians apply in larger numbers because they are rich and get every advantage in life. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167622) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 8:15 PM Author: pearly jap No, I do not forget this, nor do I consider it to be relevant to the question of whether or not Asian Americans face bias relative to other groups on the basis of their academic achievements. I made no assertions about the Asian American set of applicants other than that their admission rate (per qualified applicant) is significantly lower than other groups, including those that are considered affluent.
Your original assertion was that there is no such thing as Asian American discrimination in the admissions procedure. This is false. Whether discrimination of Asian Americans is warranted is, of course, another question altogether, as are the different solutions proposed (i.e. socioeconomic affirmative action, standard affirmative action, etc.) (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167910) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 8:27 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story It's not discrimination when you make up 4% of the national population and 25% of the Harvard college population. I'm just not buying the argument that Asians are all so much more qualified and apply in such greater numbers that even though they are represented 6.25x above their share of the population, that they are being discriminated AGAINST. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167951) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:06 PM Author: pearly jap Again, you are looking at the wrong ratio. You don't have to buy my argument that Asians are "so much more qualified and apply in such greater numbers"; look at the numbers for Brown, etc.
It *is* discrimination when your chances are lower (given equivalent statistics) than members of other ethnicities just because of your race. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168125) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:10 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story The chances of an asian getting into harvard are far better than the chances of any other race, really. For example, blacks are under-represented by almost half. Asians are over-represented by a factor of 6.25. For a lot of people, life is shit, and applying to Harvard is just not going to happen. Asians get a much better deal. That's not discrimination no matter how you look at it. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168144) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:17 PM Author: pearly jap You are assuming something that contradicts your stance in a previous post. You claim that the chances of an Asian American getting into Harvard (or presumably any other elite university) is over-represented relative to their population in the United States. The natural corollary is that Asians are better qualified on average relative to other races. Yet you stated earlier that you didn't believe this to be possible.
Let me rephrase your assertion. You claim that "...the chances of an asian getting into harvard are far better than the chances of any other race, really." Let's look at it this way: "...the chances of an [someone who studies really hard] getting into harvard are far better than the chances of any other [person who slacks off all the time], really."
So why should we discriminate against the person that studies really hard? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168170) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:21 PM Author: Fragrant stage because we are not in Asia.
you seem to clump people into two groups: those who "study really hard" and those "who slack off" to emphasize your point. false dichotomy, sir.
"studying really hard" is not the only thing colleges consider. the sooner our race realize this, the better they will fare. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168186) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:29 PM Author: pearly jap No false dichotomy (for me, at least). I was high-lighting out the flaw in reasoning in the OP's post. That was the entire point.
Also, I might add that if you truly know the definition of false dichotomy, you would not characterize the statement as such. False dichotomy implies that there are only two choices. I made no such claim. In fact, false dichotomy is not even applicable to a comparison of two sets of data-points. For example, you cannot characterize "X is more likely to score higher than Y" as a false dichotomy.
If anything, I made a slightly shady connection by using parallel reasoning. My use was, however, supported by statements that the OP had made himself/herself.
I do agree with you in theory, though. Hard-core studying should not be over-emphasized.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168219) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:42 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story My logic is not flawed at all. My point is that no group that is overrepresented by a factor of 6.25 can honestly complain about 'discrimination' against them. You have to remember that colleges take into account factors other than SAT scores and AP tests. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168282) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:45 PM Author: pearly jap "You have to remember that colleges take into account factors other than SAT scores and AP tests."
Yes, I am glad that they do this. If you look at the other threads, you will realize that I am very critical of standardized testing.
"My logic is not flawed at all. My point is that no group that is overrepresented by a factor of 6.25 can honestly complain about 'discrimination' against them."
What you say would be true if and only if you substituted the word "discrimination" with "under-representation." These are two entirely different concepts. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168295) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:50 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story Obviously there is a 'discrimination' between all applicants, for the pupose of selecting some and rejecting others.
In its perjorative sense - the one that means applicants are being denied specifically because they are asian, and not because thier particular set of traits and qualities are already tapped-out for that entering class - it just doesn't exist in college admissions.
For there to really be discrimination against asians, an otherwise-qualified Chinese Trinidadian motocross champion who wants to study poetry would have to be rejected just because he is asian. There would be no line between 'science asians' who duplicate themselves and asians like the one I describe. I just don't think this happens. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168334) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:56 PM Author: pearly jap "Obviously there is a 'discrimination' between all applicants, for the pupose of selecting some and rejecting others."
Not necessarily. If one were to choose applicant X over Y (given that X had superior academic stats and EC's and life experience) this is not discrimination. Rather, racial discrimination occurs when a certain racial group must meet altered standards relative to other racial groups. For example, Jim Crow laws would not be discriminatory (such as the extra "testing" requirements in order to vote) if they applied also to Caucasians and other races, but they didn't and are thus categorized as discriminatory.
"For there to really be discrimination against asians, an otherwise-qualified Chinese Trinidadian motocross champion who wants to study poetry would have to be rejected just because he is asian. There would be no line between 'science asians' who duplicate themselves and asians like the one I describe. I just don't think this happens."
This statement is unintentionally hilarious, because I actually know someone like this that was rejected. Nevertheless you rely too heavily on the stereotype of "science asian," although I don't blame you, as I fall in this trap myself. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168356) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:01 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story 'If one were to choose applicant X over Y (given that X had superior academic stats and EC's and life experience) this is not discrimination.'
It's discrimination in the most basic dictionary sense. All 'discrimination' means is 'distinguishing.'
'For example, Jim Crow laws would not be discriminatory (such as the extra "testing" requirements in order to vote) if they applied also to Caucasians and other races, but they didn't and are thus categorized as discriminatory.'
That's not true at all. Lots of Jim Crow laws were drafted exactly because whites would be able to meet them, and blacks would not - like requirements that your gradfather had to be a free man in order for you to vote, or things like that. In constitutional law, there is something called 'disparate impact' that expresses this idea.
Asians don't have to meet 'altered standards' just because they are asian, but they do tend to cluster around certain fields of study and around certain socioeconomic backgrounds that makes it tough to distinguish between them. This is not the college's doing.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168378) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:05 PM Author: pearly jap "It's discrimination in the most basic dictionary sense. All 'discrimination' means is 'distinguishing.'"
If you want to take it that far, then we can agree. What I was referring to was *racial* discrimination, but I'm sure that you knew that.
"That's not true at all. Lots of Jim Crow laws were drafted exactly because whites would be able to meet them, and blacks would not - like requirements that your gradfather had to be a free man in order for you to vote, or things like that. In constitutional law, there is something called 'disparate impact' that expresses this idea."
Yes--again, the precept that I was trying to express was that the test was biased against a certain race.
"Asians don't have to meet 'altered standards' just because they are asian, but they do tend to cluster around certain fields of study and around certain socioeconomic backgrounds that makes it tough to distinguish between them. This is not the college's doing."
Because of quotas, they actually do. Put it this way. Do African-Americans have to meet altered standards just because they are African-American? Of course they do. The same is true of Asians, but in a negative way. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168414) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:07 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story No one has ever established the existence of quotas. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168427) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:09 PM Author: pearly jap Historically, there was indeed a Jewish quota established at Harvard and other Ivy Leagues. This was (and is) well-documented. To deny the existence of an Asian-American quota today, you would have to accept that Asian-Americans (on a whole) have worse numbers, worse EC's, worse life-experience, etc. than any other racial group in existence.
I don't think that's very plausible, but to each their own. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168444) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:21 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story 'To deny the existence of an Asian-American quota today...'
I don't think there is any quota, I think that Asians tend to present themselves in the same boring way, go to the same well-off schools, and otherwise fail to distinguish themselves from thier peers. Do you really think that poor Hmoob kids and first-generation impoverished Laos with unique biographies are being kept out of Harvard due to asian quotas? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168505) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:29 PM Author: pearly jap "I don't think there is any quota, I think that Asians tend to present themselves in the same boring way, go to the same well-off schools, and otherwise fail to distinguish themselves from thier peers. Do you really think that poor Hmoob kids and first-generation impoverished Laos with unique biographies are being kept out of Harvard due to asian quotas?"
First of all, you imply that you need to overcome extraordinary circumstances as a necessary requirement for presenting [oneself] in an interesting way. I doubt that this is the case; from my own experience at Yale, I only met one "impoverished" student in my college (SM-- not known for being a legacy college). This is only anecdotal evidence, of course, and should be over-ruled if you find a statistic that cites that there is indeed no such thing as a poor Asian American. Because only one Asian American needs to be poor (and subsequently rejected) in order for your hypothesis to fail.
You claim that Asians follow a cookie-cutter mode. What proof do you have? I always thought that this was the case, as I was raised in a Caucasian high-school, until I actually met some [other] Asian Americans.
EDIT: I am Asian American myself. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168539) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:40 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story 'you imply that you need to overcome extraordinary circumstances as a necessary requirement for presenting [oneself] in an interesting way.'
You need to do 'something more.' That tends to come in either extraordinary academics or extraordinary demonstration of accomplishments. Coming out of poverty is one such way to demonstrate accomplishment.
' only one Asian American needs to be poor (and subsequently rejected) in order for your hypothesis to fail.'
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Not at all. We're talking broad trends, not trying to predict every single outcome.
'You claim that Asians follow a cookie-cutter mode. What proof do you have? '
Simply going to Harvard. They tend to have ties that make them very similar to each other. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168597) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:46 PM Author: pearly jap "You need to do 'something more.' That tends to come in either extraordinary academics or extraordinary demonstration of accomplishments. Coming out of poverty is one such way to demonstrate accomplishment."
Yes, and you can do "something more" more than one way.
"Not at all. We're talking broad trends, not trying to predict every single outcome."
This is true only if a quota did not exist. If a quota existed, then only one poor (and qualified) Asian American would have to be rejected to esablish that the quota system was racially discriminatory. Sorry about the confusing wording.
"Simply going to Harvard. They tend to have ties that make them very similar to each other."
Anecdotal evidence subject to user's perceptions and biases. I could say that Asian-Americans at Yale were incredibly interesting, but at least I preface it by saying that this evidence should not be taken as prima facie accurate. And I *certainly* wouldn't use this kind of "evidence" to back up my argument. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168629) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:02 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story My whole point is, there is just no positive proof of 'discrimination' against asians, a population overrepresented by a factor of 6.25 at top colleges. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168719) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:05 PM Author: pearly jap Yes, I see your point. However, your point is not supported by the empirical data, which suggests that per qualified applicant, Asian-Americans have the least chance of being admitted. For me, this is positive proof.
You do not seem to differentiate between over-representation and discrimination. As I mention farther down the thread, if we do not agree that these are different, then we must agree to disagree. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168738) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:09 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story I think you might not be considering all the factors in your determination of 'qualified' applicants. When a glut of kids come from elite private schools with similar stats and similar dreams of being premeds, that doesn't leave colleges with much choice but to reject a lot of them. That's not discrimination in any perjorative sense, that's just unavoidable horse-trading in order to get a diverse class of people. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168747) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:12 PM Author: pearly jap Yes, but you fail to consider that individual Asian Americans have the lowest chance of admission of any affluent group. I agree that the discrimination is not pejorative; in fact, many might say that the discrimination was something to be proud of, like a badge of honor, so to speak, in succeeding against so many people despite the worsened odds (just the opposite of African-Americans, who must continually fight off accusations of being "pity admits" regardless of their actual qualifications).
No matter what the motive is behind the discrimination, however, it is still discrimination. That is the only point that I am trying to make. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168762) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:19 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story ' Asian Americans have the lowest chance of admission of any affluent group'
I have no proof of that, actually. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168803) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:20 PM Author: pearly jap The proof is in the last thread on Asian-Americans, but frankly I'm too lazy to copy and paste it here. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168807) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:22 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story It would still have to be correlated with things like courseload sameness and diversity of extracirriculars. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168815) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:27 PM Author: pearly jap Yes, this would make for a better dataset (I assume that by "correlated" you mean that we should remove the confounding factors). However, since you have not provided definitive proof that Asian Americans have less "diversity of ECs" and "courseload sameness," (would you ask this if we were talking about African-Americans or Caucasians?), the data is pretty compelling as it is.
I would actually suggest adjusting the data for socio-economic status in addition.
EDIT: I have to prepare to teach the next day's LSAT class-- it has been a pleasure debating with you, petrodollar, and a refreshing change of pace without any gratituous ad hominems. You can always find me on the law board (enter at your own peril, the forum is quite chaotic) and if you're still at Harvard I might run into you sometime at HLS. Goodnight! (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168843) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 3:49 PM Author: heady parlour Subject: The Facts ======================================================
Source: 2/22/01 and 4/3/01 Brown Daily Herald
Brown University Class of '05
16,500 applicants
Asian Americans: 20.3% of the applicants, 16% of the acceptances
African Americans: 6% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Latino Americans: 7.1% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Whites and others: 66.6% of the applicants, 66% of the acceptances
Brown accepts Asian Americans at a lower rate than any other group.
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Source: 2/12/01 The Daily Pennsylvanian (www.dailypennsylvanian.com):
Asian American applicants represent 31% of the 19,086 applicants for the University of Pennsylvania’s Class of 2005 but only about 23% of the acceptances. UPenn accepts Asian Americans at a lower rate than any other group.
According to Lee Stetson, Dean of Admissions at UPenn, Asian Americans are "today's Jews". With all due respect to Jews, Asian Americans do not want to be "today's Jews", or to be limited by quotas.
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Source: "Questions and Admissions: Reflections on 100,000 Admissions Decisions at Stanford", 1995, Stanford U. Press, by Jean H. Fetter, former Director of Admissions at Stanford.
On page 97, she states, "The central fact was that while Asian Americans were being admitted to Stanford in numbers proportionally much larger than their representation in California and the U.S. population, the rate at which they had been admitted have been consistently lower than that for white students. Generally similar conditions have prevailed at other universities. Between 1982 and 1985. . . . . Asian Americans applicants to Stanford had admission rates ranging between 66 - 70% of the admission rates for whites ."
This could not be explained by academic/ non-academic ratings for Asian Americans, because the ratings were as good and in many cases, better than any other group, nor from interaction of ethnicity with other factors such as gender or geographic origin. Ms. Fetter denied that there was an implicit quota.
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(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2220181) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 10:36 AM Author: heady parlour Asian Americans are only about 16% or 4x of teir 4% of the American population at Harvard College, and not 25% or 6.25x. This group also includes Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankians from South Asia.
Jews are 2% of the American population and are 15x overrepresented for their 30% of Harvard.
Link to the Harvard Fact Book on Enrollment by Race and Ethnicity:
http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/enroll_ethnicity_7.html (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219136) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 10:41 AM Author: poppy electric resort faggot firefighter GO AWAY DR. CHIN!
Do you really want us to post your information on here???
STATE OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
STATE BOARD FOR PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL CONDUCT
IN THE MATTER OF ED MING CHIN, M.D.
STATEMENT OF CHARGES
ED MING CHIN, M.D., the Respondent, was authorized to practice medicine in New York State on March 30, 1979, by the issuance of license number 137503 by the New York State Education Department.
FACTUAL ALLEGATIONS
A. Respondent treated Patient A from on or about November 2, to on or about June 30, 1996, at his office, 1317 Elizabeth Street, New York 10013. Respondent's care and treatment of Patient A failed to meet acceptable standards of medical care, in that:
1. Responded performed EKGs without adequate medical justification.
2. Respondent administered numerous steroid injections without adequate medical justification.
3. Respondent failed to adequately evaluate complaints of chest pain.
4. Respondent failed to adequately evaluate and treat chronic bronchitis.
5. Respondent failed to adequately evaluate and treat musculoskeletal complaints.
6. Respondent failed to maintain records, which accurately reflect the care and treatment of the patient.
SPECIFICATIONS
FIRST THROUGH THIRD SPECIFICATIONS:
1. GROSS NEGLIGENCE
Respondent is charged with gross negligence on a particular occasion in violation of New York Education Law.
2. GROSS INCOMPETENCE
Respondent is charged with gross incompetence on a particular occasion in violation of New York Education Law.
NEGLIGENCE ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION
Respondent is charged with negligence on more than one occasion in violation of New York Education Law.
INCOMPETENCE ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION
Respondent is charged with incompetence on more than one occasion in violation of New York Education Law
3. FRAUD
Respondent in is charged with practicing the profession fraudulently in violation of New York Education Law.
http://w3.health.state.ny.us/opmc/factions.nsf/0/ac11f7cf085df0dd85256a4a0047c8e1/$FILE/lc137503.pdf
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219140) |
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↗ Patreon
https://www.patreon.com/iamgay Date: February 27th, 2005 2:33 PM Author: rachmiel Or you could actually respond to his point, which is sounder than the dirty 'let's personally harass him and he'll go away' bandwagon you've apparently jumped onto. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219787) |
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Date: February 28th, 2005 12:07 AM Author: heady parlour Subject: I am against all quotas or caps, both Jewish and Asian American. Source: Hillel, The Foundation for Jewish Campus Life
Overrepresentation?
Jews are overrepresented by a factor of fifhteen (15) at Harvard (33% for their 2% of the American population). Jews are the most overrepresented group at Harvard and the Ivies, yet you say that Asian Ams are overrepresented. The Asian overrepresentation pales next to Jewish overrepresentation, yet there is no quota or willfull policy to suppress Jewish numbers.
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Hero is against all quotas or caps, against both Jewish and Asian American. Jewish caps no longer exist, but the Asian American caps exist in most of the Ivies and elite American colleges.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2223987) |
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Date: March 1st, 2005 12:15 AM Author: poppy electric resort faggot firefighter He does not have a point since his history clearly puts him in the ring of dishonesty and just plain bitterment.
Most people on this board do not agree there are anti-Asian quotas. Quotas are constitutionally illegal. Asian-Americans are already an overrpresented minority on most selective college campuses. For people like 'hero' to complain is just pure selfish and ridiculous. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2231195) |
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Date: March 1st, 2005 1:04 AM Author: heady parlour Subject: Overrepresentation does not mean that there's no discrimniation Itorivia said, "Quotas are constitutionally illegal. Asian-Americans are already an overrpresented minority on most selective college campuses. For people like 'hero' to complain is just pure selfish and ridiculous."
I have a definite point and it stands by itself.
"Quotas" are constitutionally illegal, but de facto quotas or race preferences are politically correct. Political correctness stifles serious debate and discourse on the real issue, which you have avoided completely.
Overrepresentation does not mean that there's no discrimniation. This is a basic concept which you failed to understand and comprehend. Jews were overrepresented at Yale in the 1960s at 10% with a cap, but they were DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, and they complained. Today, there are no Jewish quotas and no discrimnation against Jews and they are 25% of Yale. Today, there is a cap on Asian Americans at Yale for Asian Americans at 12%, which is discrimnatory. These "quotas" come in the form of de facto racial quotas, racial preferences, racial goals, racial diversity and proportional representation.
Overrepresentation of Asian Americans does not mean that there's no discrimniation against Asian Americans. This point was made by other posters before I posted on this thread. They are the posters, Sonic Youth, Quasar, JustaVoice, and Euler, or "most" posters on this thread.
You have yet to respond to quasar's, Sonic Youth's, JustaVoice's, Euler's or hero's "sound" (rachmiel's word) and excellent arguments on the OP's topic.
You should also respond to the Facts which I listed with the Sources for these Facts. If you disagree, respond in rebuttal with your points of disagreement backed by your sources and references, if you have any at all.
The OP's statement, "There is no anti-asian bias in college admissions" has been shown to be false by all accounts with the references and sources posted. There is a definite anti-Asian American bias in college admissions to the Ivies and the elite schools in AA and racial preferences, with Asian Americans as the only non-preferred group. This bias continues today.
rachmiel said to itorivia:
"Or you could actually respond to his point, which is sounder than the dirty 'let's personally harass him and he'll go away' bandwagon you've apparently jumped onto." (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2231492) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:28 PM Author: stimulating infuriating legal warrant Overrepresentation doesn't mean there's equality, you stupid fuck.
Seriously, you're a fucking idiot. Should Jews have stopped complaining about discrimination in the 60s even though they were overrepresented? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168216) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:47 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story 'Overrepresentation doesn't mean there's equality, you handsome devil.'
Not in every case. For example, if you are hiring for a play about Asians with an all-asian cast, you'd expect asians to be overrepresented on your staff relative to the national population.
College is not like this.
Asians are way over-represented. There is more than equality for them. There is basically an assurance that they'll have a quarter of the nation's top college to themselves.
'Should Jews have stopped complaining about discrimination in the 60s even though they were overrepresented?'
Yes. It would have led to less silliness like Jews today who complain about discrimination even though almost all Jews are rich and successful. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168312) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 9:49 PM Author: pearly jap I don't agree with your argument, but the substitution "you handsome devil" made me chuckle.
Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. You may be able to justify the act of discrimination by citing the 6.25 factor of over-representation, but this does not change the fact that it is still discrimination. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168326) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:22 PM Author: stimulating infuriating legal warrant You are misrepresenting what I meant with the word "equality." Equality means non-discriminatory admissions, not equal representation. HTH (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168514) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:29 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story Like I said, I don't think asians face discrimination. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168536) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:30 PM Author: pearly jap Prove it. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168541) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:40 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story 6.25x
Do you really think an anti-asian institution would let itself become 1/4th asian? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168599) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 10:58 PM Author: pearly jap Again, 6.25x demonstrates that institutions are not against Asian over-representing themselves. It does NOT say anything about whether their adcoms discriminate against Asians.
If you equate over-representation with discrimination, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
EDIT: I should clarify that I actually think that Asians are so over-represented that discrimination against Asian Americans is, in fact, justified. This is merely my personal opinion, and this is is where I differ from the user "hero." But I do believe that we should recognize discrimination for what it is, and not claim otherwise. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168691) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:03 PM Author: alcoholic splenetic background story I don't see it as discrimination, I see it as something asian applicants do to themselves. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2168724) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 10:06 AM Author: heady parlour Quasar, you have made excellent arguments. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219105) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 1:01 PM Author: poppy electric resort faggot firefighter Go away Dr. Chin.
Petrodollar and others make absolutely perfect sense. There are no anti-Asian quotas in higher education.
Quasar, 'hero' is a fraud who is too bitter to acknowledge that he's expressing his anger on so-called "anti-Asian" quotas when New York revoked his medical license. Don't support a man with a history of negligent and criminal charges. He is a disgrace. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219448) |
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Date: March 1st, 2005 2:19 AM Author: heady parlour rachmiel said to itorivia:
"Or you could actually respond to his point, which is sounder than the dirty 'let's personally harass him and he'll go away' bandwagon you've apparently jumped onto."
You have yet to respond to quasar's, Sonic Youth's, JustaVoice's, Euler's or hero's "sound" (rachmiel's word) and excellent arguments on the OP's topic.
You should also respond to the Facts which I listed with the Sources for these Facts. If you disagree, respond in rebuttal with your points of disagreement backed by your sources and references, if you have any at all.
The OP's statement, "There is no anti-asian bias in college admissions" has been shown to be false by all accounts with the references and sources posted. There is a definite anti-Asian American bias in college admissions to the Ivies and the elite schools in AA and racial preferences, with Asian Americans as the only non-preferred group. This bias continues today.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2231955) |
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Date: March 4th, 2005 8:47 AM Author: heady parlour Subject: itorivia Please respond to the Facts with the Sources given at the end of this thread, if you disagree with them. If you don't disagree, I assume that you also accept these Facts without dispute and you do conclude that there is an anti-Asian American bias in admissions to the Ivies and highly selective colleges. Thank you kindly. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2255435) |
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Date: February 28th, 2005 3:35 AM Author: Bistre Halford Dysfunction blacks and hispanics are not qualified, asians are. You should shut the fuck up and be grateful AA allows you to attend whatever university you attend instead of cleaning its floors. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2224719) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 8:36 PM Author: Fragrant stage exactly. it's not discrimination when we're crowding each other out. fucking pc-asian militants (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2167991) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 1:38 PM Author: Hideous Geriatric Abode Private Investor I don't like this description of asians in america as some sort of monolith.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219594) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 2:24 PM Author: heady parlour Another excellent point (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219745) |
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Date: February 28th, 2005 3:33 AM Author: Bistre Halford Dysfunction don't you ever get tired of the taste of white cock? (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2224711) |
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Date: February 28th, 2005 7:57 AM Author: heady parlour Subject: Fact: Asian Americans are 12% of Harvard U.., not 25% According to the definitive source from the Harvard website, Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders are only 12% of the entire student population of Harvard University and all its schools.
Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders are only 16% or 4x of their 4% of the American population at Harvard College, and not 25% or 6.25x. In addition to Americans with roots from China, Korea, and Japan of East Asia, this group also includes Americans who are Indians, Pakistanis and Sri Lankians with roots from South Asia, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Thais, Laotians, Burmese, Singaporeans, and Taiwanese with roots from South East Asia, and Fijians and Samoans, with roots from the Amerian Pacific Islands, as well as Americans with roots from the Philippines, Indonesia (world's most populous Moslem country), and Malayasia.
Asian Americans are indeed a MOST DIVERSE group, racially, ethnically. culturally, religiously, geographically, and economically from ALL social strata and class.
This definition used for the Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders demographic group by the Harvard admissions office, is the same one used by the US Census Bureau, or for the inclusive term, "Asian Americans".
In marked contrast, Jews are 2% of the American population and are 15x overrepresented for their 30% of Harvard.
Link to the Harvard Fact Book on Enrollment by Race and Ethnicity:
http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/enroll_ethnicity_7.html
According to the Hillel database(http://www.hillel.org/hillel/Hillel_Schools_New.nsf/Schools?openform), Jews are 2% of the American population. They represent 30% of the undergraduates at Harvard College, 23% at Yale College and over 30% of all students at the University of Pennsylvania. The Ivy League and other elite schools have no quotas limiting Jewish students.
These same schools impose quotas limiting the number of Asian American students. Asian Americans are about 4% of the American population. Asian Americans are about 15% of the students at the Ivy League undergraduate colleges and some other elite undergraduate schools. At the University of California at Berkeley, Asian Americans represent 41% of undergraduates, where there is no quota/cap, and at Stanford, they are 25% of the undergraduates, where they are capped by a quota. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2225012) |
Date: February 27th, 2005 2:01 PM Author: heady parlour Subject: The Facts ======================================================
Source: 2/22/01 and 4/3/01 Brown Daily Herald
Brown University Class of '05
16,500 applicants
Asian Americans: 20.3% of the applicants, 16% of the acceptances
African Americans: 6% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Latino Americans: 7.1% of the applicants, 9% of the acceptances
Whites and others: 66.6% of the applicants, 66% of the acceptances
Brown accepts Asian Americans at a lower rate than any other group.
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Source: 2/12/01 The Daily Pennsylvanian (www.dailypennsylvanian.com):
Asian American applicants represent 31% of the 19,086 applicants for the University of Pennsylvania’s Class of 2005 but only about 23% of the acceptances. UPenn accepts Asian Americans at a lower rate than any other group.
According to Lee Stetson, Dean of Admissions at UPenn, Asian Americans are "today's Jews". With all due respect to Jews, Asian Americans do not want to be "today's Jews", or to be limited by quotas.
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Source: Hillel, The Foundation for Jewish Campus Life
Overrepresentation?
Jews are overrepresented by a factor of fifhteen (15) at Harvard (33% for their 2% of the American population). Jews are the most overrepresented group at Harvard and the Ivies, yet you say that Asian Ams are overrepresented. The Asian overrepresentation pales next to Jewish overrepresentation, yet there is no quota or willfull policy to suppress Jewish numbers.
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Source: "Questions and Admissions: Reflections on 100,000 Admissions Decisions at Stanford", 1995, Stanford U. Press, by Jean H. Fetter, former Director of Admissions at Stanford.
On page 97, she states, "The central fact was that while Asian Americans were being admitted to Stanford in numbers proportionally much larger than their representation in California and the U.S. population, the rate at which they had been admitted have been consistently lower than that for white students. Generally similar conditions have prevailed at other universities. Between 1982 and 1985. . . . . Asian Americans applicants to Stanford had admission rates ranging between 66 - 70% of the admission rates for whites ."
This could not be explained by academic/ non-academic ratings for Asian Americans, because the ratings were as good and in many cases, better than any other group, nor from interaction of ethnicity with other factors such as gender or geographic origin. Ms. Fetter denied that there was an implicit quota.
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Source: 2/26/01 The New York Times: "Public Lives: Family History Forges Labor Secretary's Convictions"
["I know what discrimination is," says Labor Secretary Elaine L. Chao. Then Ms. Chao was recruited to serve on an alumni board for Harvard. That experience, Ms. Chao said, showed her how Harvard's racial goals for admission meant that Asian-Americans were held back. Even though Asian-Americans had the highest test scores and highest grade-point averages, she said, they had the lowest admission rate because the school did not want to go over its goals for Asian-Americans. (In December 2000, when Harvard admitted 1,105 new students on an early basis for the new freshman class, 18.4 percent were Asian-American, 7.2 percent were Hispanic, 6.1 percent were African-American and 0.8 percent were Native Americans, according to the school's admissions office.) "The goal concept means you'll be subject to a higher standard of achievement for admission," said Ms. Chao, defining the particular glass ceiling and racial discrimination her community has faced since Asians first came to this country.]
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Source: "Getting In: Inside the College Admissions Process" by Bill Paul, Addison- Wesley Publishing Co., Inc., 1995
The author, Mr. Bill Paul, writes in his discussion on affirmative action and reverse discrimination against Asian Americans on pp. 200-202:
[Thomas Kean, head of Drew University and former Governor of New Jersey, says some colleges have "invisible quotas" for Asian- Americans done in the name of "diversity." "Nobody wants to talk about this," he told me in an interview, "but the word is very much around at the most highly-selective colleges. People are practicing that discrimination."]
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Hero is against all quotas or caps, both Jewish and Asian American.
(https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2219662) |
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Date: February 27th, 2005 9:32 PM Author: heady parlour Subject: More Facts- Sources as given ===========================================================
Source; From the book, "Illiberal Education: The Politics of Race and Sex on Campus", by Dinesh D'souza, 1990, Chapter 2,"(Asians are) More Equal Than Others", p. 263 (Chap. 2 footnotes):
[At Harvard in 1982 Asian Americans who were offered admission had a combined SAT average of 1467; for whites, the average was only 1355. Thus Asians typically had to score more than 100 points higher (112 points in 1982) than whites to be admitted to Harvard. Further, although Asian American application rates climbed rapidly between 1982 and 1987, Harvard continued to accept between 11 - 15% of Asians (Americans) in each freshman class, an "upper limit quota" in the minds of Asian activists. Robert Klitgaard, "Choosing Elites", Basic Books, N.Y., 1985, pp. 134-41. See also Jon Bunzel and Jeffrey Au, "Diversity or Discrimination: Asian-Americans in College," "The Public Interest", Spring 1987, p. 55.]
=========================================================== Source: Stanford's Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid- Annual Report of CUAFA, Stanford University, 1986, reprinted in "Campus Report", November 12, 1986.
Stanford's Committee on Undergraduate Admissions and Financial Aid discovered, after an inquiry, that between 1982 and 1985 Asian Americans were one-third less likely than whites to be offered admission, even though they were on average better prepared than white applicants. Annual Report of CUAFA, Stanford University, 1986, reprinted in "Campus Report", November 12, 1986.
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Sources: 1. The report by the Corporation Committee on Minority Affairs (CCMA) at Brown University
2. Grace Tsang, "Equal Access of Asian-Americans", "Yale Law Journal", January 1989, pp. 659-78.
[Some admissions officials have complained that Asian Americans tend to be lacking in extracurricular and personal qualities, which universities consider along with grades to ensure that they get well-rounded individuals. But there is no systematic evidence to this; indeed a report by the Corporation Committee on Minority Affairs (CCMA) at Brown, established to investigate charges of anti-Asian discrimination, found such assumptions to be the result of "cultural bias and stereotypes which prevail in the admissions office." In the early 1980s, these attitudes contributed to a 14% acceptance rate for Asians, who are on the average the best qualified applicants to Brown, compared to the other students who averaged an acceptance rate of 20%. See Report of CCMA, Brown University, February 1984. Between 1978 and 1986, there was a 430% increase of Asian Americans applying to Brown, but the number of these students remained fairly constant. Grace Tsang, "Equal Access of Asian-Americans", "Yale Law Journal", January 1989, pp. 659-78.]
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Source: Consortium on Financing Higher Education, 1992
All Asian Americans, of every economic class on the average, were paying a penalty in order to be admitted to Harvard, the Ivies, and the elite colleges, by having to have higher grades (the best indicator for future academic success) and higher SAT scores at Harvard. Asian American SAT I scores at Harvard were 65 points higher than the white mean in 1992; at Rice they were 70 points higher; at Stanford, 58 points higher; Columbia, 42 points; Williams, 36 points; Brown 36 points ; Dartmouth 49 points; Princeton 40 points; and Duke 38 points higher; Sources: Consortium on Financing Higher Education, 1992.
In 1992, the gap in average SAT scores between black and white entrants was 150 points at Princeton, 171 at Stanford, 218 at Dartmouth, and 271 at Rice.
In 1992, the gap in average SAT scores between black and Asian entrants was 190 at Princeton, 229 at Stanford, 267 at Dartmouth, and 341 points at Rice.
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Source: The book, "Illiberal Education" by Dinesh D'Souza (1990)
In the book, "Illiberal Education" by Dinesh D'Souza (1990), D'Souza quotes from Brown University documents that indicate Brown instituted an upper-limit quota on the number of Asian students admitted. From about the mid '70s to 1986, D'Souza shows that while Asian applicants to Brown increased by over 400%, the number of students admitted remained steady. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2222792) |
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Date: February 28th, 2005 3:32 AM Author: Bistre Halford Dysfunction think how many more asians there would be if they stopped their discriminatory practices. Since when is arguing out of one's ass considered a well-reasoned argument? Have you any numbers to back up your claim you smelly beaner?
But think about this, blacks make up 12% of the u.s. but represent 80% of the NBA. If there was some anti-black discrimination, then the number might be something like 50%. Thus, even though their representation might be 4x their national representation, there would still be anti-black discrimination because 50% would not have reached the 80% mark if no anti-black discrimination had been in place.
It's understandable you cannot grasp this concept since you're a dumb fucking spic who couldn't get into ITT Tech without AA. Fucking border hoppers. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2224709) |
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Date: February 28th, 2005 11:59 PM Author: heady parlour The OP's statement, "There is no anti-asian bias in college admissions" has been shown to be false by all accounts with the references and sources posted. There is a definite anti-Asian American bias in college admissions to the Ivies and the elite schools in AA and racial preferences, with Asian Americans as the only non-preferred group. This bias continues today.
In fact there are de facto quotas against Asian Americans in admissions to elite colleges. (https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=138656&forum_id=2#2231100) |